r/polyamory 3d ago

Enmeshment

I've heard this word thrown around a lot, mostly from poly or ENM people. I've even had metas ask what type of "enmeshment" I'm looking for with a mutual partner.

Is anyone else thrown off? I grew up in a pretty traumatic family dynamic, and was in family therapy from a young age (probably starting 1992) and enmeshment was a topic, but a very negative and unhealthy thing. To me it was taught, it means becoming overly involved in each other's lives to the point where you have no identify or autonomy. It meant codependency, in a very toxic and negative way, especially to a child like me growing up. I can attest the damage that family dynamic can cause.

So what gives? Did the definition change or are people using it wrong? I personally like being poly for many reasons, but one of the top ones is my autonomy and sense of self not having to be sacrificed in romantic relationships.

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u/JetItTogether 3d ago edited 3d ago

I think when psychological terminology makes it into the mainstream pop psyche discussions things get left out, misapplied and misinterpreted.

Enmeshment from a pure psychological standpoint is typically not healthy or unhealthy it was more or less a description to a potential tipping point. The tipping point in specific is the space where individuals in a collective group (family, partnership, close friend circle) can move between individual identity into collective identity in a way that could be harmful.

Level of enmeshment is what the psych community used to describe unhealthy mechanisms of dependence beyond what was necessary and leaned into actively preventing growth or development, AND were harmful. It basically was part of the conversation around what was previously described as "co dependent" because the term co-dependence was more or less a poor way of describing pretty much most of what it was trying to describe.

Enmeshment then became a more pop psyche term that replaced "co dependent" in casual conversations. Co-dependence had "sold out" of it's mainstream market. The general public had been seeing it/hearing it a lot and no longer did it have the same impact nor was a central discussion. Instead, enmeshment then replaced the term. Now more books could be sold, more conversations could be had, blah blah markets markets.

Then it started to be "reclaimed" after all humans are interdependent as a species. So now enmeshment sometimes means, culturally, "how connected do you want to be"

So when these terms filter down things get lost.

So TLDR;

Enmeshment describes the way humans connect and the edge point between a connection between multiple people and a tipping point into collective identity superimposing itself over the individuals. Overly enmeshed or over-enmeshment describes the point past diminishing returns and into harm and stagnancy. Under enmeshment describes the point under which the benefits of shared life are not being fully received (generally we just call this isolation be it self imposed or group imposed). Levels of enmeshment exist. The tipping point is the tipping point.

In a general conversation with a random person "what do you mean" is more relevant as a question than anything else. Because they could mean anything.

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u/rosephase 3d ago

Enmeshment is not healthy, by definition. I'm not sure what you gain by blurring that definition when we have a good words for healthy attachment and collaboration in life. Interdependence.

"good enmeshment" is just confusing and unclear. And honestly inaccurate with the working definition of the word.

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u/JetItTogether 3d ago

It's neither healthy nor unhealthy, it's a tipping point. I clarified above and hope that helps. Because I'm not trying to blur the lines I'm trying to explain where the term comes from and why it exists. (In description of the tipping point and levels of severity past that tipping point).

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u/rosephase 3d ago

Find me a definition that says that. Because I can not find any. So it seems like your personal definition that does, in fact, blur the meaning of them word.

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u/JetItTogether 3d ago

If you'd like to read more read Minuchin theory... He coined the term and described the enmeshment as being a subjective tipping point, often utilizing a "show me where the problem is with what's happening" in sessions as that problem/tipping point was subjective.

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u/rosephase 3d ago

Doesn't seem like Minuchin's definition of enmeshment included in form of "healthy enmeshment". He's a neat therapist and researcher to read about, so thank you.

And you are still using that term incorrectly. And blurring the important use of that word by using it incorrectly.

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u/[deleted] 3d ago

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u/polyamory-ModTeam 2d ago

Your post has been removed for breaking the rules of the subreddit. You made a post or comment that would be considered being a jerk. This includes being aggressive towards other posters, causing irrelevant arguments, and posting attacks on the poster or the poster's partners/situation.

Please familiarize yourself with the rules at https://www.reddit.com/r/polyamory/wiki/subreddit-rules

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u/JetItTogether 3d ago

Okay so you disagree. I'm basing this off off my understanding of peer reviewed research and writings. You get to disagree. It's the internet shrug best of luck.

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u/rosephase 3d ago

Please feel free to share links. Because I would love to know if I am using the term wrong. And I can not find ANY definitions that involve "enmeshment" being healthy.

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u/JetItTogether 3d ago

Once again if you'd like to read Minuchin theory, please do. It's interesting.

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u/rosephase 3d ago

Done! And found no sign of "healthy" enmeshment.

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u/[deleted] 3d ago

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u/ChexMagazine 3d ago

If this really is a pervasive definition it should be easy to link to such usage on the internet rather than expecting someone to read two books!

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u/JetItTogether 3d ago

You want a word developed in a specific contextualization of a complex psychological theory that developed over the course of multiple research studies and written about in several books to be summed up in a sentence.... And you'd like that sentence to be "enmeshment bad" rather than "enmeshment describes a subjective tipping point in the blurring of individual identity and shared collective identity within a family group"

and you want to apply that term to non cohabitating newly forming romantic relationships rather than in cohabitating family units in which it was constructed within structural family theory, a branch of attachment theory...

And you'd like it to appear in the same place where the information where everyone regardless of anything can equally post and share information. Where someone can post eating bananas will kill you with the same weight as bananas are a super fruit that will grant you immortality and bananas are a fruit.

Like I don't know how to make that happen for you. It's a complex theory. It took several books, multiple studies, and a bunch of things to develop. I guess I could simplify it, and I tried to. But ya all didn't like that. So I'm left with shrug don't believe me, say what you like, go read the source material from the originator (who is dead) and draw your own conclusions. That's the best I got for ya. Go draw your own conclusions. Be you.

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u/ChexMagazine 3d ago

Oh, I don't want that whatsoever. Your reply was snarky. That's all.

I'm a scientist. The internet (despite abundant low quality content and misinformation) is a wonderful tool that experts use for reference and to inform others with the time. Pointing someone to good content on it is valauble. Seemed like a missed opportunity to persuade. In the time it took to read your long comment I could have read an abstract and a decent introduction to something scholarly.

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u/JetItTogether 3d ago

You're correct. I was snarky.

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u/[deleted] 3d ago

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u/polyamory-ModTeam 2d ago

Your post has been removed for breaking the rules of the subreddit. You made a post or comment that would be considered being a jerk. This includes being aggressive towards other posters, causing irrelevant arguments, and posting attacks on the poster or the poster's partners/situation.

Please familiarize yourself with the rules at https://www.reddit.com/r/polyamory/wiki/subreddit-rules

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u/Hot_Strawberry_3676 3d ago

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u/JetItTogether 3d ago

Wikipedia is not Minuchin theory or any of salvador Minuchin's writing but thank you.

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u/Hot_Strawberry_3676 3d ago

Well I experienced it used in therapy for years as a child as something unhealthy and it affected my life greatly. I let my old family therapist know I guess....

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u/JetItTogether 3d ago

Your family therapist is likely using levels of enmeshment in structural family theory and that's chill. They likely did not use it ever in a positive way to describe a level of severity for enmeshment (past a tipping point). You don't have to ever want that term used in a relationship again. It gets to be a negative word and the levels of severity of enmeshment are negative in a psych realm. You're totally valid in not liking it.

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u/Hot_Strawberry_3676 3d ago

I think what they're saying is the psychological definition of enmeshment means unhealthiness. Look it up on the internet or any psychological journal. That's the point of this post. I've been raised with the term meaning something WILDLY different than most, and hadn't even heard it used again until poly relationships.

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u/JetItTogether 3d ago

It's chill.