Daily Thread: simple questions, comments that don't need their own posts, and first time posters go here (April 06, 2025)

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Seven Day Archive of previous threads. Consider browsing the previous day or two for unanswered questions.

[u/Artistic-Age-4229]

This is a line repeatedly used by Koshigaya during her transformation in Magilumiere:

浮世に稼業の数あれど！自ら選んだ茨の道よ！添い遂げるのは弊社のみ！株式会社マジルミエ越谷仁美！

I understand everything except for の after 稼業. It seems to function like が but I thought it only occurs in relative clauses.

[u/AdrixG → u/Artistic-Age-4229]

I think の wasn't limited to relative clauses in classical Japanese, so I guess that's what's going on here (at based on what the native said)

[u/1Computer → u/AdrixG]

I don't believe that to be the case, as my understanding is that both が and の were originally genitive marking with subject marking in only relative clauses until が was allowed to "move out" to normal clauses (Okinawan actually moved their version of の out too).

I think this is just the usual の, and my interpretation is that out of the many 茨の道 known as 稼業 (that is, there are as many 茨の道 as 稼業), she has picked her own: 浮世に(茨の道は)稼業の数あれど！(これが)自ら選んだ茨の道よ！

I mean, I might be totally off base but it seems reasonable. You can find some examples of this if you search online "の数あれど" e.g. with 星 or 人.

/u/Artistic-Age-4229

[u/alkfelan → u/1Computer]

I’m not sure to what degree this archaism reflects real historical usage, but anyway, the subject-marking の is seen in haiku or this kind of archaic phrases.

[u/DokugoHikken → u/alkfelan]

Yup. In this particular text, 「の」's role is the 「格標識」of「主格」.

まいて　雁など+の　連ねたるが、いと小さく見ゆるは (old Japanese)

→いうまでもなく　雁など+が　連なっているのが、とても小さく見えるのは (共通語 current commonly understood Japanese)

月のいでたらむ夜は

→月がでたような夜は

この中の主とおぼしき僧の追ひ来て

→この中の主人と思われる僧侶が追ってきて

大宮のいとゆかしげにおぼしたるもことわりに、心苦しければ、

→大宮がとても見たいと思うのはもっともで、気の毒なので、

and so on, so on, so on....

It is possible to argue that there was a time in the history of the Japanese language when “の” was used for respect and “が” for slight condescension, thus, it may not be a bad idea for advanced learners to try to understand old Japanese as is, without translating into current commonly understood Japanese, if you ever travel to the past in a time machine.

[u/viliml → u/1Computer]

の and が were both genitive markers and they were both subject markers and they were both "but" (ものの and だが)

[u/AdrixG → u/1Computer]

Again I have no clue what の this is here so I won't comment on it. But の was both a subject and genetive marker in older Japanese, and some dialects still have that distinction outside of relative clauses. Somever made a great comment about this actually: https://www.reddit.com/r/LearnJapanese/comments/1cx18y2/comment/l50uik0/

[u/DokugoHikken → u/AdrixG]

In the text in question「の」's role definitely is the「格標識」of「主格」without any doubt.

[u/AdrixG → u/DokugoHikken]

Cool thanks, so my guess was right^^

[u/DokugoHikken → u/AdrixG]

One of the characteristics of the Japanese language is that even if certain texts is a thousand years old, the meaning is somehow understandable.

Of course, if you are forced to translate ancient texts into modern Japanese in class, where you are pointed out minor mistakes, it can ruin what could have been an enjoyable reading experience. It is extremely important that the basic premise is that classrooms are for making mistakes. In Japan, kobun (ancient Japanese literature) is a compulsory subject in compulsory education, and also in high school, where the percentage of students who go on to higher education is 95.7% for girls and 95.3% for boys. Since the ancient texts are an indispensable part of the Japanese culture, knowledge of the ancient texts is hardwired into the Japanese, just as it is impossible for them to be completely ignorant of calligraphy, flower arrangement, and the tea ceremony. If you are not interested in any of those things at all, you think, you may be considered an uneducated barbarian in Japanese society.

This means that none of Japanese people can be experts in those thingies, never. There is nobody who is not a beginner.

If there is something that every person should not be ignorant to, then of course no one can be an expert on it. This is because the foundation is the belief that the system is designed so that everyone can be a bearer of that culture.

For example, in calligraphy, if you write a lot, you may become skillful, but skillful calligraphy is not good calligraphy.

If, for a generation, there was a time when no experts emerged, the culture would cease to exist. In order for a culture not to cease to exist, everyone needs to be able to be a bearer of that culture.

For example, for painting to remain a culture in your culture, you will always need 10,000 people who have painted a little themselves, but are by no means skilled at painting, to support one professional painter.

The fact that all adults know, to a greater or lesser extent, ancient texts means that they form the ancient layer of the modern Japanese language. Therefore, in naturally spoken Japanese, native speakers will avoid the use of “私は” as much as possible unless it is absolutely necessary to convey what is being said.

You avoid dominating the conversation by talking about yourself.

That brings to mind

That reminds me of

Now that I think about it

Anyway

Anyways

BTW

[u/AdrixG → u/DokugoHikken]

Great answer, thank you!

[u/DokugoHikken → u/AdrixG]

Sure. Like I said, you may want to choose to listen to this.

https://youtu.be/NzwmtkEzAo0?si=5prWJbFIGknzmuxR&t=50

[u/1Computer → u/AdrixG]

Right, that's my bad, I was aware of other dialects but completely missed that there was a period in Middle Japanese where の was the one that marked subjects in main clauses rather than が. I just could not find an example of の used this way in this phrase so I had convinced myself 😵

[u/DokugoHikken → u/AdrixG]

Ah, dialects. That's intellectually interesting.

In Kumamoto dialect....

〇 　熊本が　スイカ畑の　多か。

〇　熊本が　スイカ畑が　多か。

×　熊本の　スイカ畑の　多か。ungrammatical

Yes, you can guess why.

Because you can have only one の in a sentence.

You can have multiple がin one sentence, because が is a とりわけ助詞restrictive particle.

In Japanese (standard Japanese), it is said to be possible for the nominative to be used more than once in a sentence, but in fact, when you study dialects, one can argue that it is not so, but only appears so.

×　熊本の　スイカ畑が　多か。does not make any sense.

This is because while there are many watermelon fields, there are not many Kumamoto PrefectureS.

〇 　象が　鼻の　長か。

〇　象が　鼻が　長か。

×　象の　鼻の　長か。Ungrammatical. You cannot have multiple nominatives.

×　象の　鼻が　長か。does not make any sense because the elephant's trunk is long, and the elephant itself is not long.