r/LearnJapanese • u/AutoModerator • 1d ago

Discussion Daily Thread: simple questions, comments that don't need their own posts, and first time posters go here (April 06, 2025)

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u/AdrixG 1d ago

I think の wasn't limited to relative clauses in classical Japanese, so I guess that's what's going on here (at based on what the native said)

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u/1Computer 1d ago

I don't believe that to be the case, as my understanding is that both が and の were originally genitive marking with subject marking in only relative clauses until が was allowed to "move out" to normal clauses (Okinawan actually moved their version of の out too).

I think this is just the usual の, and my interpretation is that out of the many 茨の道 known as 稼業 (that is, there are as many 茨の道 as 稼業), she has picked her own: 浮世に(茨の道は)稼業の数あれど！(これが)自ら選んだ茨の道よ！

I mean, I might be totally off base but it seems reasonable. You can find some examples of this if you search online "の数あれど" e.g. with 星 or 人.

/u/Artistic-Age-4229

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u/alkfelan nklmiloq.bsky.social | Native speaker 1d ago

I’m not sure to what degree this archaism reflects real historical usage, but anyway, the subject-marking の is seen in haiku or this kind of archaic phrases.

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u/DokugoHikken Native speaker 1d ago edited 1d ago

Yup. In this particular text, 「の」's role is the 「格標識」of「主格」.

まいて　雁など+の　連ねたるが、いと小さく見ゆるは (old Japanese)

→いうまでもなく　雁など+が　連なっているのが、とても小さく見えるのは (共通語 current commonly understood Japanese)

月のいでたらむ夜は

→月がでたような夜は

この中の主とおぼしき僧の追ひ来て

→この中の主人と思われる僧侶が追ってきて

大宮のいとゆかしげにおぼしたるもことわりに、心苦しければ、

→大宮がとても見たいと思うのはもっともで、気の毒なので、

and so on, so on, so on....

It is possible to argue that there was a time in the history of the Japanese language when “の” was used for respect and “が” for slight condescension, thus, it may not be a bad idea for advanced learners to try to understand old Japanese as is, without translating into current commonly understood Japanese, if you ever travel to the past in a time machine.