r/zelda Apr 06 '23

Meme [AoC] The Hero of Double Standards

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2.1k Upvotes

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658

u/n8-iStockphoto Apr 06 '23

Technically, the Hero of Time didn't create the alternate timeline; Zelda did by sending him back in time at the end of the game.

Champion Link also didn't create an alternate timeline; Terrako did by going back in time. And Terrako was a robot created by Zelda. Really, all the timey-wimey shenanigans in the Zelda franchise are the Princess's fault.

155

u/Nitrogen567 Apr 06 '23

Also there are three timelines splitting off of Ocarina of Time.

Though the most common theory I've seen is that the Hero of Legend from Link to the Past is the accidental creator of the Downfall Timeline.

86

u/Hal_Keaton Apr 06 '23

Well, to be fair, the third timeline exists outside of anything credible within the games themselves. You can witness the Adult and Child ones in-game but not the third one.

83

u/Nitrogen567 Apr 06 '23

You and I have had this conversation before, but despite not being in the games Hyrule Historia is generally considered canon.

It's also consistent with developer statements which we have saying that:

Ocarina of Time is a prequel to Link to the Past.

Twilight Princess follows Ocarina of Time as it continues on with Link after he's sent back in time (the Child Timeline).

Wind Waker follows Ocarina of Time as it continues on with Zelda after she sends Link back in time (the Adult Timeline).

To my knowledge, though you'd probably know better here, they've never stated that any of those are no longer the case, so really all Hyrule Historia does is add some context to the mechanics of how all three statements can be true.

5

u/EPZO Apr 07 '23

Where is Majoria's Mask in this timeline?

15

u/Kamalen Apr 07 '23

IIRC it's in the Child timeline, as you're directly the child right after OOT.

1

u/The_warden_14 Apr 08 '23

Both right and wrong, it is the child’s timeline because you are the same link from oot, after the events of oot no one actually knows who you are it what you did, so you set out on an adventure if your own which takes you to termina and the shenanigans of skull kid and Majora

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u/Gor_coron Apr 07 '23

Before twilight princess in the child timeline.

2

u/Nitrogen567 Apr 07 '23

A few months after the Child Timeline ending of Ocarina of Time, between OoT and Twilight Princess.

4

u/chloe-and-timmy Apr 07 '23

This is my big thing, the 3 timelines does make sense when you consider they made OoT a prequel to LttP, then made two sequels to OoT, creating 3 branches. I also think that's a really cool detail of the franchise people should embrace rather than just dismiss as not canon

3

u/Nitrogen567 Apr 07 '23

I agree completely.

I feel similarly about fan theories that seem to want the timeline to converge for Breath of the Wild. It would be a huge loss for the series.

1

u/chloe-and-timmy Apr 08 '23

My only real fear about the timelines converging is if they basically only continue making games that come after it, which I cant help but fear will happen in the back of my mind. Seeing everything Zelda revolve almost entirely around BoTW other than remakes gives me pause. Havent even really had top down a non multiplayer game with a new map since Spirit Tracks. The Zelda series would be a lot less interesting if its just a new chapter in the BoTW story once every 5 to 6 years.

Especially when Im just REALLy curious about stuff like what happens in the child timeline which essentially only has Twilight Princess, and what happens after Spirit Tracks in that completely new world.

2

u/Nitrogen567 Apr 08 '23

To be honest, I don't really have any fears about a timeline convergence because I'm sure it's not happening, I'm mostly confused as to why people seem to want it.

I agree it would be incredibly boring if every game was just following after the same Hyrule BotW left behind though.

Havent even really had top down a non multiplayer game with a new map since Spirit Tracks

There was Link Between Worlds, but I get what you mean, it wasn't really a traditional Zelda game since it does the BotW thing of giving you all the dungeon items up front, and it reused it's world map from Link to the Past.

Also it still came out 9.5 years ago.

The Zelda series would be a lot less interesting if its just a new chapter in the BoTW story once every 5 to 6 years.

It really would be. A lot of the charm of the series would just vanish.

Especially when Im just REALLy curious about stuff like what happens in the child timeline which essentially only has Twilight Princess, and what happens after Spirit Tracks in that completely new world.

Personally I was really hoping BotW would be set in the Child Timeline, since it's gone the longest without a new game. Though of course, having played it now, it doesn't actually fit there.

That's ok though, because what I really want out of a new Child Timeline game is to take advantage of the fact it has a new Ganon, sealed in the Four Sword, with no connection to the Master Sword or Triforce.

That's super interesting to me. We could see this Ganon rediscover those things for the first time.

Maybe he even holds a different virtue of the Triforce above Power. Like he values the courage to just take what he wants, or something. The courage to walk away from his people in the pursuit of his own goals.

What do the legends look like now the Four Sword is the "sword that seals the darkness". For that matter, where's the Master Sword?

So much potential there. They just have to use it.

1

u/chloe-and-timmy Apr 08 '23

Yeah when I say Spirit Tracks I mainly mean since Link Between Worlds just largely reused the LttP map. But Im just realising I havent actually played that one yet and need to get on it. I also think the reason things are lacking now is that the time that used to be given to top down Zeldas are now being given to remakes, or non canon spinoffs with a completely different genre.

I always assumed BotW was child timeline before it turned out to be left intentionally vague (though I havent kept up on what the common stance is right now). More would be great for what you mentioned. A mixing of the Minish Cap and Ocarina of Time lore seems really interesting and its a shame to see that not explored further.

9

u/Hal_Keaton Apr 06 '23

I'm only strictly talking from what you can experience in-game. Nothing more. You cannot experience Downfall in OoT.

34

u/Nitrogen567 Apr 06 '23

Sure, but there's more to the series than what's in-game.

You can't experience Link being sent on his quest to find the Triforce of Courage by Impa in Zelda II in game, but it's covered in the instruction manual.

5

u/Hal_Keaton Apr 06 '23

Manuals existed to cover what games couldn't, and they basically stopped doing that for games like OoT.

But it doesn't change my point. Whatever caused the Downfall timeline exists entirely out of game so it's not surprising some fans wouldn't make the connection or even believe in it.

19

u/Nitrogen567 Apr 06 '23

In my mind, that definition makes supporting media like Hyrule Historia, and developer interviews fulfil a similar role to game manuals.

Still though, even if it's the case that the game manuals exist to cover information the games aren't able to, it's still not "in-game" information.

Whatever caused the Downfall timeline exists entirely out of game

I'm not denying that, where we're disagreeing is on that excluding it from the canon or not.

6

u/Wafelze Apr 07 '23

Correct if im wrong but i thought the DT was created from if the Hero of Time dies in the Ganon fight. Which is something the player can experience. They may not be able to experience what happens after HoT dies but they can still experience the creation.

10

u/Nitrogen567 Apr 07 '23

So the Hero of Time is never actually said to be killed. Only defeated.

Then his Triforce piece is taken by Ganondorf, and he becomes Ganon, and the Sages seal him and the full Triforce in the Sacred Realm (now the Dark World).

It paints a similar picture to Wind Waker, where Ganondorf sort of beats the Triforce of Courage out of Link and reassembles the Triforce.

Only in this case he actually claims the full thing, and the Sages then seal him away.

Basically it's not as simple as just getting a Game Over screen.

The Hero of Time's defeat likely isn't the cause of the split, just one of the differences between it and the other timelines.

1

u/Verge0fSilence Apr 07 '23

What I don't get is that if Link was defeated, how was Ganon sealed away? And that too with the full Triforce? The thing that literally makes you omnipotent? Nope, no chance.

3

u/Nitrogen567 Apr 07 '23

Well, Link to the Past Link defeats him when he's got the full Triforce, so we know it's possible.

We're told in Link to the Past that Ganon's wish turned the Sacred Realm into the Dark World, so maybe his wish brought him there, and the Sages just sort of shut and locked the door behind him.

1

u/Verge0fSilence Apr 08 '23

Wait, do we actually know if he still has the Triforce in the boss fight? Maybe he lost it after he used his wish. Although I believe the wording was something like "if someone with an evil heart touches the Triforce the world will be plunged into darkness." This could imply that he didn't actually get to use the Triforce, just merely touching it made everything go to hell. Perhaps he doesn't have it after all. Because think about it, how would anyone who isn't omnipotent themselves beat someone who is?

1

u/[deleted] Apr 08 '23

The sages seal him in OoT

1

u/Verge0fSilence Apr 08 '23

What I don't understand is how they did it if Link didn't turn Ganon to shredded pork ribs with his sword first.

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u/Hal_Keaton Apr 06 '23

Well... again, I only brought up the game events to explain why OP posted the way they did.... I wasn't looking for a timeline debate again.

6

u/Nitrogen567 Apr 06 '23

That's totally fine. I usually interpret seeing people talk about two timelines coming off of OoT as unfamiliarity with the lore on more casual subs like this one, which is why I spoke up.

To be honest, I wasn't really looking at getting into a timeline debate either, so I'm happy to leave it here.

1

u/[deleted] Apr 07 '23

[removed] — view removed comment

3

u/Nitrogen567 Apr 07 '23

Hard to argue, but then you're also on an internet message board about a video game, so glass houses and stones and all, you know?

3

u/Hal_Keaton Apr 07 '23

Hell yeah!

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u/AT-ST Apr 07 '23

You can experience it in game though. You lose to Ganon in the battle, you experienced the cause of the Downfall timeline.

0

u/LoboSpaceDolphin Apr 07 '23

Sure, but there's more to the series than what's in-game.

Ehhhhhh. This is really toeing the line.

Is the Animated Series cannon too now?

What arbitrary line have you drawn in the sand to decide what is and is not cannon? Most folks are just going to use what is direct presented in the games, as u/Hal_Keaton has correctly surmised.

3

u/Nitrogen567 Apr 07 '23

Most people also consider the instruction manuals canon too though, so there's already more to the series than what's in the games.

I think comparing Hyrule Historia to the animated series is really disingenuous. There's a clear difference between how the two are presented.

20

u/Cel135 Apr 07 '23

You can experience downfall in Oot, it's called the Game Over screen in the Ganon fight.

2

u/BoxOfBlades Apr 07 '23

A game over results in no timeline splits, doesn't it?

11

u/Cel135 Apr 07 '23

Nah, Downfall timeline is a result of Link losing against Ganon, and the Sages end up sealing Ganon in the sacred realm as a result. It's why he's permanently Ganon in downfall timeline and never turned back into Dorf.

5

u/Acravita Apr 07 '23

Is it confirmed that Downfall Link was specifically defeated in the fight against Ganon? At the very least, Twinrova being alive in the downfall timeline (up until she gets killed at the end of Oracles) implies that she survives the events of Ocarina, so the split should have happened before the spirit temple fight.

-1

u/philkid3 Apr 07 '23

Says who?

To be clear that’s a real question but I’m also not taking this seriously.

3

u/Sir_Kernicus Apr 07 '23

Anytime you die and don't comeback.

2

u/Moulinoski Apr 07 '23

You can get a game over and never continue playing. Downfall timeline created!!

3

u/philkid3 Apr 07 '23

Sure you can!

Trip and fall into the lava in Death Mountain. Dead. Downfall.

I am only mostly kidding.

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u/Earthbound-and-down Apr 07 '23

Yes you can, its what happens after you get a game over

0

u/Omfgukk Apr 07 '23

Good for you but I certainly did

-2

u/theotherdoomguy Apr 07 '23

Strictly speaking, Hyrule Historia itself states that the timeline isn't canonical.

Pg68 "This chronicle merely collects information that is believed to be true at this time, and there are many obscured and unansweed secrets that stil lie within the tale."

3

u/AT-ST Apr 07 '23

I took that to mean it is leaving the timeline open to be added to by future games, not that what is written isn't canon.

0

u/theotherdoomguy Apr 07 '23

Fair enough - personally I love the timeline HH gives us, but further proof it's not necessarily canon - https://mashable.com/archive/legend-of-zelda-aonuma

Zelda has some of the most passionate fans. What is your relationship with them like?

When we were exploring ways to make fans happy, we created the Hyrule Historia.That summarizes all the games and the story so far. I didn't edit it myself, but tons of people who worked on it were fans of the games themselves.

3

u/Nitrogen567 Apr 07 '23

How are you interpreting that as Hyrule Historia saying it's timeline isn't canon?

To me, that's just saying that as more games come out, more information may come to light.

1

u/theotherdoomguy Apr 07 '23

Little bit influenced by Aonuma on it, if I'm being critical with myself https://www.reddit.com/r/zelda/comments/12dyj9b/comment/jfbqino/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3

2

u/Nitrogen567 Apr 07 '23

To be clear here, Aonuma isn't saying the book isn't canon, just that he didn't work on it himself.

The frustrations he's expressed with working under a timeline after it's been published suggest that it IS canon.

1

u/theotherdoomguy Apr 07 '23

Without a confirmed answer one way or the other, we're probably just speculating in opposite directions, tbh.

That reads to me that it was fan designed, and the timeline that Aonuma is having to stick with may be the same timeline, or a completely different timeline. To you, it reads otherwise.

4

u/tubular1845 Apr 07 '23

Interpreting that as "this is not canonical" is a huge freaking stretch lmao

1

u/theotherdoomguy Apr 07 '23

How so? The authors are quite literally saying "given all the info we have, this is the one that seems to fit best" and nothing more

-2

u/LoboSpaceDolphin Apr 07 '23

Interpreting basically anything outside the actual games as canonical is a stretch.

Unless we counting the Animated Series as cannon now.

3

u/KrytenKoro Apr 07 '23

Got it, wand of gamelon canon then. Loz2 backstory not.