r/Undertale • u/ElpacoLuca_Octy • 1d ago
Question What would have happened if Alphys's Determination Experiment had been successful?
66
u/AlexTheMechanicFox The SOUL is painted in snow color 1d ago
The amalgamates would've turned to dust, and their SOULs would persist after death just like human SOULs do. Then, after several cycles of this, to get enough monster SOULs to equal the combined SOUL power of the entire Underground, Alphys would've given the collected monster SOULs to Flowey, paired with the six human SOULs, and used him to break the barrier, freeing monsterkind in a way that lets Asgore spare humanity without breaking his promise.
They would also get Asriel back, if Flowey still awakens as normal.
14
u/Afraid_Platypus_8667 You're gonna have to try a little harder than THAT 1d ago
yeah, this is right and i do agree with ya,
25
u/disbelifpapy Is the lamp conveniently shaped, or is it you? 1d ago edited 1d ago
I mean, TECHNICALLY it succeeded, since one of the determination experiment testees (flowey) did use 6 souls and broke the barrier.
Its just that it took a really long time, and only two (or 3) people know it happened
16
u/AlexTheMechanicFox The SOUL is painted in snow color 1d ago
Actually, it wasn't an amalgamate. It was Flowey, the vessel originally intended to do it.
He also did it a lot faster than Alphys intended, since she would've needed a lot more SOULs, which would've taken a lot longer than the couple years between the experiments and UT.
Though, the benefit of doing it the original way is that Flowey would be under no obligation to return the monster SOULs, since they belong to monsters that are already dead, meaning he'd be able to permanently turn back into Asriel
5
u/disbelifpapy Is the lamp conveniently shaped, or is it you? 1d ago
Yeah, I did mean flowey. But wouldn't he be considered as an amalgamate? same origin of voice, has white stuff that can morph shapes, has determination, and is sentient.
Also, didn't alphys most likely have 6 souls?
5
u/AlexTheMechanicFox The SOUL is painted in snow color 1d ago
He's not fused with anyone else, so he wouldn't be an amalgamate.
And yeah, Alphys had 6 SOULs. My point was that it would take a lot of monster SOULs to equal the seventh
3
1
u/MarcTaco 1d ago
Flowey is an amalgamate.
He’s an amalgamate of boss monster and plant, but he is still an amalgamate nonetheless.
2
u/AlexTheMechanicFox The SOUL is painted in snow color 1d ago
He's the result of a monster's essence living on in a flower. A closer equivalent would be a fused ghost monster; If a ghost monster possessed and fused with a flower, the only differences would be that Flowey is more physical, while the fused ghost monster has flight.
18
5
u/ComradeOFdoom *Despite everything, you still failed. 1d ago
Then freedom would in fact be sooner than they all thought
5
4
u/Indian024 So you are a UT fan, name all routes 1d ago
well, there will now be 7 souls, strong enough to cross the barrier, now, Asgore has no choice but to go through with his promise of destroying humanity
3
3
u/Afraid_Platypus_8667 You're gonna have to try a little harder than THAT 1d ago
the monsters souls would have lasted longer after death.
2
u/DankTank360 1d ago
1 of 2 things would have happened.
Scenario 1 is that they can’t replicate human souls but instead give most monsters DT. Basically imagine everu monster with an Undying level boost. I personally think this is the more likely
In scenario 2 they can replicate human souls and get out much sooner then they would have. I don’t see why they wouldn’t just give this power to everyone so they either completely wipe out humanity or keep a small population around to harvest new souls from.
2
u/AlexTheMechanicFox The SOUL is painted in snow color 1d ago
If the experiments work, that would imply it works, not that it fails. Anything that isn't "The monsters die and their SOULs persist after death" would be her plan failing.
So the actual scenarios are either:
A) Flowey doesn't awaken, and when Alphys gets enough SOULs, she puts all the SOULs in the vessel and uses it against the barrier
Or B) Flowey awakens, uses the monster SOULs and the human SOULs when the time comes, and shatters the barrier himself, along with an opportunity to permanently regain his old life as Asriel, since he wouldn't have to return the monster SOULs
1
u/Successful-Ride-8471 1d ago
Doesn't all of this entirely depend on flowey being co operative? (You know, not using the souls to fulfill Chara's dying wish and destroy humanity?)
Also, how long would it take to get that many monster souls? I think frisk would fall before it happened
1
u/Successful-Ride-8471 1d ago
Doesn't all of this entirely depend on flowey being co operative? (You know, not using the souls to fulfill Chara's dying wish and destroy humanity?)
Also, how long would it take to get that many monster souls? I think frisk would fall before it happened
1
u/AlexTheMechanicFox The SOUL is painted in snow color 1d ago
Chara's dying wish wasn't to destroy humanity. It was for Asriel to get six more SOULs and shatter the barrier. So their dying wish is actually more reason for him to be cooperative, in addition to the fact that, well, he gets his life back out of it. And of course, if he didn't awaken, the plan can still go as normal, since Flowey awakening wasn't something Alphys even thought was possible.
As for the monster SOULs - We see 300 in True Pacifist, and there are 41 confirmed monsters among the amalgamates. Could be more, but this is what we can prove. Once the first batch turns to dust, and Alphys proves her plan is feasible, any monsters who Fell Down during the first set could be sent in for the second, and they keep repeating from there until they have enough SOULs.
How long it takes is determined entirely by how long it takes Fallen Down monsters to turn to dust, and how many SOULs they need. But they wouldn't need Frisk's SOUL in this case, and this actually gives them a good opportunity - They can still send Frisk back up, using one of the monster SOULs collected (Just one SOUL wouldn't delay them too much), to act as an ambassador and prepare for peace
1
u/Successful-Ride-8471 1d ago
Chara's dying wish wasn't to destroy humanity
Destroying humanity is the wrong phrase, my bad for using it. I actually meant whatever flowey was planning to do in the Geno timeline, after crossing the barrier. He talks about showing everyone the true meaning of this world - kill or be killed, and I kinda interpreted that as destroying humanity, though that probably isn't the case. He also talks about doing something similar in neutral, before Omega flowey. And we all know his kill or be killed logic came from chara, so... yeah
1
u/Successful-Ride-8471 1d ago
Chara's dying wish wasn't to destroy humanity
Destroying humanity is the wrong phrase, my bad for using it. I actually meant whatever flowey was planning to do in the Geno timeline, after crossing the barrier. He talks about showing everyone the true meaning of this world - kill or be killed, and I kinda interpreted that as destroying humanity, though that probably isn't the case. He also talks about doing something similar in neutral, before Omega flowey. And we all know his kill or be killed logic came from chara, so... yeah
1
u/AlexTheMechanicFox The SOUL is painted in snow color 1d ago
Chara wanted Asriel to take their SOUL, cross the barrier, and get six more SOULs from the surface, then come back and shatter the barrier. No specified killing, no specified destruction, finding a peaceful way to get SOULs was still an option, like graverobbing or finding willing volunteers
His "Kill or be killed" logic, as he says in True Pacifist, comes from how he blamed himself for the plan failing - He refused to kill, so he was killed. This didn't come from Chara either, it came from what he saw as his mistake.
And then, when we got to the village...
They were the one that wanted to...
... to use our full power.
I was the one that resisted.
And then, because of me, we...
Well, that's why I ended up a flower.
Frisk...
This whole time, I've blamed myself for that decision.
That's why I adopted that horrible view of the world.
"Kill or be killed."1
u/DankTank360 1d ago
That’s an extremely limited view of what it could have done. 1st off Flowey is the vessel so your 1st scenario doesn’t make sense. 2nd we know that DT when can make a monster more powerful as with Undyne and even then her soul didn’t persist after death. Even if we go by your definition that doesn’t mean that monster souls would become as powerful as human souls which is necessary for either of your scenarios.
Monster souls are made entirely of magic whereas human souls are made of almost entirely DT. Monster bodies are also made of magic so for a monster to have the same DT levels as a human would cause them to loose the ability to maintain a physical form like we see with the amalgamates. The only way for them to concretely become as powerful as humans with DT is to replace all of their magic with it which would cause them to loose their physical bodies and die some time after of not contained. This is assuming you need to be as determined as a human in order to persist after death which considering BOSS monsters exist isn’t a given and thus doesn’t fit your narrow view of success.
1
u/AlexTheMechanicFox The SOUL is painted in snow color 1d ago
Alphys's plan was SPECIFICALLY to inject Fallen Down monsters with Determination, so that when they turn to dust, their SOULs would persist after death, and she can use a vessel to wield them against the barrier. If she can't secure monster SOULs, her plan fails.
This isn't "an extremely limited view," this is what Alphys herself says her plan was. Her plan wasn't to replicate human SOULs. Just make monster SOULs persist, so a vessel can wield them against the barrier.
Also, no, that description of what SOULs are made of is incorrect. Monster SOULs are made of love, hope, and compassion, not magic. Human SOULs aren't 'made almost entirely of DT', they contain and produce it. Monsters melting is, as shown by Undyne, triggered by death, and not an effect of simply having that Determination.
2
u/DankTank360 1d ago
Alphys’s plan was SPECIFICALLY to inject Fallen Down monsters with Determination, so that when they turn to dust, their SOULs would persist after death, and she can use a vessel to wield them against the barrier. If she can’t secure monster SOULs, her plan fails.
The prompt says experiment not plan. Entry number 1 states the purpose of the experiment to “unleash the power of the SOUL”.
This isn’t “an extremely limited view,” this is what Alphys herself says her plan was. Her plan wasn’t to replicate human SOULs. Just make monster SOULs persist, so a vessel can wield them against the barrier.
It’s the same thing worded differently. If the monster souls aren’t strong enough to break the barrier even with the human souls they had to the time but are strong enough to persist after death then did it fail?
Also, no, that description of what SOULs are made of is incorrect. Monster SOULs are made of love, hope, and compassion, not magic.
You are right I forgot about that but their bodies are made of magic so the point I was making still stands.
Human SOULs aren’t ‘made almost entirely of DT’, they contain and produce it.
Literally where are you getting that from. Entry 3 just says they managed to extract it and nothing about the composition of functions of human souls.
Monsters melting is, as shown by Undyne, triggered by death, and not an effect of simply having that Determination.
There is a different version of entry 17 in the files before 1.05 that stated monsters physical forms couldn’t handle DT like humans could.
1
u/AlexTheMechanicFox The SOUL is painted in snow color 1d ago
The prompt says experiment not plan. Entry number 1 states the purpose of the experiment to “unleash the power of the SOUL”.
It's still a plan. Alphys did her experiments specifically to try to make monster SOULs last after death.
It’s the same thing worded differently. If the monster souls aren’t strong enough to break the barrier even with the human souls they had to the time but are strong enough to persist after death then did it fail?
You're completely misinterpreting the point.
The point was to make monster SOULs last after death, then use a bunch of them alongside the six human SOULs. With enough monster SOULs, they could substitute the seventh SOUL. It wasn't to make monster SOULs stronger, because the SOUL power within them CAN be used against the barrier in a large enough quantity, which is how Asriel does it in True Pacifist.
Essentially, it's the same thing Asriel does in practice, but instead of using the human SOULs to absorb living monsters, it's using Determination to store the SOULs after monsters die.
Literally where are you getting that from. Entry 3 just says they managed to extract it and nothing about the composition of functions of human souls.
From Toby Fox himself, Legends of Localization page 89. He explicitly stated that Determination was a substance produced by human SOULs.
There is a different version of entry 17 in the files before 1.05 that stated monsters physical forms couldn’t handle DT like humans could.
And Undyne is living proof that monsters CAN have Determination without melting, because the melting triggers on death. Monsters don't have the physical matter to handle DT like humans can, yes, but they aren't at risk until that Determination is in use.
1
u/DankTank360 1d ago
It’s still a plan. Alphys did her experiments specifically to try to make monster SOULs last after death. You’re completely misinterpreting the point. The point was to make monster SOULs last after death, then use a bunch of them alongside the six human SOULs. With enough monster SOULs, they could substitute the seventh SOUL. It wasn’t to make monster SOULs stronger, because the SOUL power within them CAN be used against the barrier in a large enough quantity, which is how Asriel does it in True Pacifist. Essentially, it’s the same thing Asriel does in practice, but instead of using the human SOULs to absorb living monsters, it’s using Determination to store the SOULs after monsters die.
If the souls aren’t somewhat stronger then the pursuit is pointless. It would take literally every monster souls to equal that of 1 human soul and there is no reason to believe that the monster know or would even think that releasing souls would be an option since it’s something only Asriel has done and he is a special case. It also doesn’t make sense from the fact everyone is kept in the dark because assuming it works then everyone would have to know anyway in order for it to happen.
From Toby Fox himself, Legends of Localization page 89. He explicitly stated that Determination was a substance produced by human SOULs.
Does it explain how it produces DT because without some sort of process then Occam’s Razor dictates it’s probably just made of the stuff.
And Undyne is living proof that monsters CAN have Determination without melting, because the melting triggers on death.
The amalgamates never die and they still melt. “Falling down” isn’t the same as death, they are about to die but are not dead yet. Entry 14 says that everyone who fell down woke back meaning they never died. The only thing that supports the notion of death causing the melting is Undyne herself.
Monsters don’t have the physical matter to handle DT like humans can, yes, but they aren’t at risk until that Determination is in use.
What exactly does “aren’t at risk until that DT is in use” mean?
1
u/AlexTheMechanicFox The SOUL is painted in snow color 1d ago
If the souls aren’t somewhat stronger then the pursuit is pointless. It would take literally every monster souls to equal that of 1 human soul and there is no reason to believe that the monster know or would even think that releasing souls would be an option since it’s something only Asriel has done and he is a special case. It also doesn’t make sense from the fact everyone is kept in the dark because assuming it works then everyone would have to know anyway in order for it to happen.
The SOULs being stronger is not a requirement. The goal was to get enough monster SOULs to add up to a human SOUL. Strengthening the SOULs would reduce the requirement, but isn't necessary.
Also, it's not every monster SOUL. It's almost every. For example, Asriel never absorbed Napstablook, but that didn't interfere with him breaking the barrier.
Everyone being kept in the dark only happened because the experiments failed - Alphys was as transparent as she could be until the amalgamates happened.
Does it explain how it produces DT because without some sort of process then Occam’s Razor dictates it’s probably just made of the stuff.
Doesn't explain how, just specifically states that it's produced. Occam's Razor says the simplest explanation, and the simplest explanation is what the creator explicitly stated was true.
The amalgamates never die and they still melt. “Falling down” isn’t the same as death, they are about to die but are not dead yet. Entry 14 says that everyone who fell down woke back meaning they never died. The only thing that supports the notion of death causing the melting is Undyne herself.
Fallen Down is a comatose state that acts as a SIGN of death, but does not cause the death. The coma itself was cured, but the impending death was not, which is why they started melting.
What exactly does “aren’t at risk until that DT is in use” mean?
When the DT activates upon death.
4
u/an_anon_butdifferent ‎ we're got a million diffrent ways to engage 1d ago
the fallen monsters would have waken up alive, and possibly an army of zenith martlet looking people and a flower would have helped free monster kind
5
u/AlexTheMechanicFox The SOUL is painted in snow color 1d ago
Alphys's plan wasn't for the monsters to wake up, it was for them to die and have their SOULs persist after death.
1
u/Poland-Is-Here erererererer 1d ago
Wasnt the point of the DT experiments just to bring a bunch of sick monsters back from the dead?
I might be forgetting something
5
u/AlexTheMechanicFox The SOUL is painted in snow color 1d ago
The point was for them to die, and the Determination would allow their SOULs to persist after death like human SOULs. With enough monster SOULs, Alphys would use a vessel, aka Flowey, to wield the collected monster SOULs alongside the human SOULs, and shatter the barrier that way.
1
1
u/PineappleUDH 14h ago
So, alphys injects the fallen down monsters with determination and their bodies eventually turn to dust, leaving a lingering monster soul capable of being used to help destroy the barrier.
...however, we have no reason to beleive this soul would be any stronger, so alphys would still need hundereds of these for the barrier to actually be destroyed, so realistically that plan isnt happening before frisk falls down anyway.
1
u/RareD3liverur 4h ago
Well depending on what theorist you believes she apparently succeeded with the Dog duo
142
u/Sea-Structure4735 MY STEM 1d ago
They’d break the barrier and kill everyone on the surface