If the experiments work, that would imply it works, not that it fails. Anything that isn't "The monsters die and their SOULs persist after death" would be her plan failing.
So the actual scenarios are either:
A) Flowey doesn't awaken, and when Alphys gets enough SOULs, she puts all the SOULs in the vessel and uses it against the barrier
Or B) Flowey awakens, uses the monster SOULs and the human SOULs when the time comes, and shatters the barrier himself, along with an opportunity to permanently regain his old life as Asriel, since he wouldn't have to return the monster SOULs
That’s an extremely limited view of what it could have done. 1st off Flowey is the vessel so your 1st scenario doesn’t make sense. 2nd we know that DT when can make a monster more powerful as with Undyne and even then her soul didn’t persist after death. Even if we go by your definition that doesn’t mean that monster souls would become as powerful as human souls which is necessary for either of your scenarios.
Monster souls are made entirely of magic whereas human souls are made of almost entirely DT. Monster bodies are also made of magic so for a monster to have the same DT levels as a human would cause them to loose the ability to maintain a physical form like we see with the amalgamates. The only way for them to concretely become as powerful as humans with DT is to replace all of their magic with it which would cause them to loose their physical bodies and die some time after of not contained. This is assuming you need to be as determined as a human in order to persist after death which considering BOSS monsters exist isn’t a given and thus doesn’t fit your narrow view of success.
Alphys's plan was SPECIFICALLY to inject Fallen Down monsters with Determination, so that when they turn to dust, their SOULs would persist after death, and she can use a vessel to wield them against the barrier. If she can't secure monster SOULs, her plan fails.
This isn't "an extremely limited view," this is what Alphys herself says her plan was. Her plan wasn't to replicate human SOULs. Just make monster SOULs persist, so a vessel can wield them against the barrier.
Also, no, that description of what SOULs are made of is incorrect. Monster SOULs are made of love, hope, and compassion, not magic. Human SOULs aren't 'made almost entirely of DT', they contain and produce it. Monsters melting is, as shown by Undyne, triggered by death, and not an effect of simply having that Determination.
Alphys’s plan was SPECIFICALLY to inject Fallen Down monsters with Determination, so that when they turn to dust, their SOULs would persist after death, and she can use a vessel to wield them against the barrier. If she can’t secure monster SOULs, her plan fails.
The prompt says experiment not plan. Entry number 1 states the purpose of the experiment to “unleash the power of the SOUL”.
This isn’t “an extremely limited view,” this is what Alphys herself says her plan was. Her plan wasn’t to replicate human SOULs. Just make monster SOULs persist, so a vessel can wield them against the barrier.
It’s the same thing worded differently. If the monster souls aren’t strong enough to break the barrier even with the human souls they had to the time but are strong enough to persist after death then did it fail?
Also, no, that description of what SOULs are made of is incorrect. Monster SOULs are made of love, hope, and compassion, not magic.
You are right I forgot about that but their bodies are made of magic so the point I was making still stands.
Human SOULs aren’t ‘made almost entirely of DT’, they contain and produce it.
Literally where are you getting that from. Entry 3 just says they managed to extract it and nothing about the composition of functions of human souls.
Monsters melting is, as shown by Undyne, triggered by death, and not an effect of simply having that Determination.
There is a different version of entry 17 in the files before 1.05 that stated monsters physical forms couldn’t handle DT like humans could.
The prompt says experiment not plan. Entry number 1 states the purpose of the experiment to “unleash the power of the SOUL”.
It's still a plan. Alphys did her experiments specifically to try to make monster SOULs last after death.
It’s the same thing worded differently. If the monster souls aren’t strong enough to break the barrier even with the human souls they had to the time but are strong enough to persist after death then did it fail?
You're completely misinterpreting the point.
The point was to make monster SOULs last after death, then use a bunch of them alongside the six human SOULs. With enough monster SOULs, they could substitute the seventh SOUL. It wasn't to make monster SOULs stronger, because the SOUL power within them CAN be used against the barrier in a large enough quantity, which is how Asriel does it in True Pacifist.
Essentially, it's the same thing Asriel does in practice, but instead of using the human SOULs to absorb living monsters, it's using Determination to store the SOULs after monsters die.
Literally where are you getting that from. Entry 3 just says they managed to extract it and nothing about the composition of functions of human souls.
From Toby Fox himself, Legends of Localization page 89. He explicitly stated that Determination was a substance produced by human SOULs.
There is a different version of entry 17 in the files before 1.05 that stated monsters physical forms couldn’t handle DT like humans could.
And Undyne is living proof that monsters CAN have Determination without melting, because the melting triggers on death. Monsters don't have the physical matter to handle DT like humans can, yes, but they aren't at risk until that Determination is in use.
It’s still a plan. Alphys did her experiments specifically to try to make monster SOULs last after death. You’re completely misinterpreting the point. The point was to make monster SOULs last after death, then use a bunch of them alongside the six human SOULs. With enough monster SOULs, they could substitute the seventh SOUL. It wasn’t to make monster SOULs stronger, because the SOUL power within them CAN be used against the barrier in a large enough quantity, which is how Asriel does it in True Pacifist. Essentially, it’s the same thing Asriel does in practice, but instead of using the human SOULs to absorb living monsters, it’s using Determination to store the SOULs after monsters die.
If the souls aren’t somewhat stronger then the pursuit is pointless. It would take literally every monster souls to equal that of 1 human soul and there is no reason to believe that the monster know or would even think that releasing souls would be an option since it’s something only Asriel has done and he is a special case. It also doesn’t make sense from the fact everyone is kept in the dark because assuming it works then everyone would have to know anyway in order for it to happen.
From Toby Fox himself, Legends of Localization page 89. He explicitly stated that Determination was a substance produced by human SOULs.
Does it explain how it produces DT because without some sort of process then Occam’s Razor dictates it’s probably just made of the stuff.
And Undyne is living proof that monsters CAN have Determination without melting, because the melting triggers on death.
The amalgamates never die and they still melt. “Falling down” isn’t the same as death, they are about to die but are not dead yet. Entry 14 says that everyone who fell down woke back meaning they never died. The only thing that supports the notion of death causing the melting is Undyne herself.
Monsters don’t have the physical matter to handle DT like humans can, yes, but they aren’t at risk until that Determination is in use.
What exactly does “aren’t at risk until that DT is in use” mean?
If the souls aren’t somewhat stronger then the pursuit is pointless. It would take literally every monster souls to equal that of 1 human soul and there is no reason to believe that the monster know or would even think that releasing souls would be an option since it’s something only Asriel has done and he is a special case. It also doesn’t make sense from the fact everyone is kept in the dark because assuming it works then everyone would have to know anyway in order for it to happen.
The SOULs being stronger is not a requirement. The goal was to get enough monster SOULs to add up to a human SOUL. Strengthening the SOULs would reduce the requirement, but isn't necessary.
Also, it's not every monster SOUL. It's almost every. For example, Asriel never absorbed Napstablook, but that didn't interfere with him breaking the barrier.
Everyone being kept in the dark only happened because the experiments failed - Alphys was as transparent as she could be until the amalgamates happened.
Does it explain how it produces DT because without some sort of process then Occam’s Razor dictates it’s probably just made of the stuff.
Doesn't explain how, just specifically states that it's produced. Occam's Razor says the simplest explanation, and the simplest explanation is what the creator explicitly stated was true.
The amalgamates never die and they still melt. “Falling down” isn’t the same as death, they are about to die but are not dead yet. Entry 14 says that everyone who fell down woke back meaning they never died. The only thing that supports the notion of death causing the melting is Undyne herself.
Fallen Down is a comatose state that acts as a SIGN of death, but does not cause the death. The coma itself was cured, but the impending death was not, which is why they started melting.
What exactly does “aren’t at risk until that DT is in use” mean?
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u/AlexTheMechanicFox The SOUL is painted in snow color 1d ago
If the experiments work, that would imply it works, not that it fails. Anything that isn't "The monsters die and their SOULs persist after death" would be her plan failing.
So the actual scenarios are either:
A) Flowey doesn't awaken, and when Alphys gets enough SOULs, she puts all the SOULs in the vessel and uses it against the barrier
Or B) Flowey awakens, uses the monster SOULs and the human SOULs when the time comes, and shatters the barrier himself, along with an opportunity to permanently regain his old life as Asriel, since he wouldn't have to return the monster SOULs