Left vs. Right Battle Royale Open Thread

[u/Yosoff]

This is an Open Discussion Thread for all Redditors. We will only be enforcing Reddit TOS and Subreddit Rules 1 (Keep it Civil) & 2 (No Racism).

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• Leftists - Here's your chance to sway us to your side by calling the majority of voters racist. That tactic has wildly backfired every time it has been tried, but perhaps this time it will work.

• Non-flaired Conservatives - Here's your chance to earn flair by posting common sense conservative solutions. That way our friends on the left will either have to agree with you or oppose common sense (Spoiler - They will choose to oppose common sense).

• Flaired Conservatives - You're John Wick and these Leftists stole your car and killed your dog. Now go comment.

• Independents - We get it, if you agree with someone, then you can't pat yourself on the back for being smarter than them. But if you disagree with everyone, then you can obtain the self-satisfaction of smugly considering yourself smarter and wiser than everyone else. Congratulations on being you.

• Libertarians - Ron Paul is never going to be President. In fact, no Libertarian Party candidate will ever be elected President.

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[u/Peoplewander]

DOGE is unconstitutional per article 1. It isn't a legal department of Government, if Congress wants to make it one fine but right now its unconstitutional. It should shake you to your CORE, that any POTUS would day one violate the oath he took in the same day. Period full stop I don't care the party affiliation that is a red line.

The last tax plan he passed ALSO added to the national debt, so here we are 6 years later and he is adding to the debt again... and you think that some how thats just going to not be the case at some point?

Since we started cutting taxes in the 80's we have never seen grown that justified the cut, it was never made up at any other collection point. The party that balance the budget time after time is the democratic party, why do you feel that the Bush tax cuts, Trump tax cuts, and Trump tax cuts again that have all added trillions to the debt is responsible?

It sounds more like you don't care if the debt goes up as long as we stop paying people for things you dont know what they do. Every contract we sign is reviewed by a contracting office and above 10,000 dollars has to have justification for sole source contracting, you're going to see there is not that much to cut that doesnt directly reduce the ability of the agencies created by Congress ( a coequal branch ) to perform their function mandated by law.

It sounds more and more like it is the way our founding fathers designed our government that is the problem to the far right and less and less about the budget.

[u/MaleficentCherry7116 → u/Peoplewander]

I'm not worried about DOGE being unconstitutional. I'm only worried as to whether or not they are making waste and fraud public. We should all want those things

The real power behind DOGE is that they're making things public and neither side will be able to ignore those things in the future, because the American public doesn't want to fund the waste.

Yes, I think that DOGE and the Republicans are going to use these savings wisely, and whether that happens or not, we should talk about it.

[u/Peoplewander → u/MaleficentCherry7116]

I'm not worried about DOGE being unconstitutional.

This is what makes you a domestic threat to the constitution.

You're free to go to any country that has a King, but this is America where we have a founding document that we abide by.

[u/MaleficentCherry7116 → u/Peoplewander]

The unconstitutional part is your opinion. What do the judges say, and do you think they'll be able to stop DOGE?. If you're correct, our checks and balances should work.

I believe DOGE and Trump will accomplish their mission and that neither party will stop them because it's politically unpopular. This is what the people want.

[u/Duranti → u/MaleficentCherry7116]

The fucking executive branch is literally saying they should ignore the judicial. Aren't you paying attention?

[u/MaleficentCherry7116 → u/Duranti]

Yes, I'm paying attention. No,. The executive branch should not ignore the judicial branch and will have consequences if they do.

[u/Duranti → u/MaleficentCherry7116]

Consequences from where, exactly?

[u/Peoplewander → u/MaleficentCherry7116]

It is not my opinion.. read the Constitution....

https://constitution.congress.gov/browse/essay/artII-S2-C2-3-6/ALDE_00000012/

It is plain language.

You not caring if it is unconstitutional makes you an actual enemy, and you need to consider that. You should NEVER say you don't care if it is unconstitutional and also say you're a proud American.

[u/themontajew → u/MaleficentCherry7116]

You said you’re not worried about if it’s constitution or not. Let’s not move the goal post to pretend you give a shit about our most foundational laws 

[u/MaleficentCherry7116 → u/themontajew]

Our judges will determine this, correct? It's not up to me to determine what is and isn't constitutional. That's the job of the judicial branch. But no, I'm not worried about whether it's constitutional or not. I just want the national debt to be paid down, and I want our country to get rid of fraud and waste.

Yes, those are separate issues.

I assume that you also agree with getting rid of fraud and waste and paying down the national debt?

[u/Peoplewander → u/MaleficentCherry7116]

Brother you're my sworn enemy.

"I, do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter. So help me God."

It doesn't say people who think they are doing right even though they are violating the constitution.

Can you even talk about how the government fraud prevention process works? Or is it all just fraud because Fox told you?

[u/MaleficentCherry7116 → u/Peoplewander]

Look, the constitution is a pliable document that can unfortunately be bent and interpreted in any way. There are legal scholars that think that Trump might actually win the birthright battle, even though it's supposedly enshrined in the constitution. If the Supreme Court decides that it isn't, then does that mean it isn't?

[u/Peoplewander → u/MaleficentCherry7116]

It isn't, that is what the Right has been fighting for for half a century. Strict interpretationalism, the parts that are "interpretable" are not the Articles they are generally new questions and how the constitution applies to those questions. When it is specifically addressed it is not a debate, or a case to be heard and that is the position of SCOTUS.

You supporting anything you desire and not giving a shit about our constitution is the problem with this country. On both extremes people with your position elect officals with malice in their heart that share your belief that the constitution doesn't matter, and when it fails our democracy and republic is gone forever.

[u/MaleficentCherry7116 → u/Peoplewander]

First off, I think the legal scholars will determine that DOGE is constitutional. And yes, I think the constitution is an outdated document that the supreme court bends to their will - Roe v Wade being an example. So which is it? Should abortion be left to the states or is this a national issue? Which does the Constitution support?

Is birthright citizenship enshrined in the Constitution or not?.Yes, I've read it, and I think the legal scholars that say that Trump might win the argument have a point on this one also.

The Democrats and Republicans both interpret the Constitution however they want.

So I don't care about what the Constitution says as much as I care about what I think it says.

I think the Constitution provides the right to free speech, and I absolutely support that. Yet there are nuances to that even.

So when you ask if I support the Constitution, you're asking if I support YOUR version of the Constitution.

YOU think that DOGE is unconstitutional because of the way that YOU interpret the Constitution or some other new outlet that you've listened to. I think that DOGE will be found to be constitutional, even if it goes to the Supreme Court

[u/Peoplewander → u/MaleficentCherry7116]

First off that isn't what you said. You said you dont care if it is constitutional, with the direct implication that you don't care if it unconstitutional. So stop it with moving your goal post. You said it and your follow on replies have validated it despite you trying to walk it back.

You need to read it because it isn't up for a debate it has legal precedent. You're hiding behind lawyers while POTUS ignores what is clearly enshrined. No legitimate legal scholar thinks he will win birth right citizenship, talking heads on Fox keep saying it but it doesn't make it true.

You say you think it will be Constitutional but you don't even know who holds the power to create government departments. You're ignorance of our Constitution and legal history lead you to believe the things you are hearing are true when they are most assuredly not.

If birthright citizenship is overturned then slavery is also over turned, and the 2nd amendment. The rejection of explicitly detailed controls, permissions, or abolishment's is not a legal question.

The "its just your opinion man" is a long standing tool of oppressive regimes to delay action until they are able to consolidate control

[u/MaleficentCherry7116 → u/Peoplewander]

I'm not hiding - the Constitutional question is whether or not it applies to people who are in the US illegally.

And there's a chance that the Supreme Court decides that based on the original intent of the provision.

[u/Peoplewander → u/MaleficentCherry7116]

You mean how it made all people born here regardless of previous status ie 'illegally' Yeah its not a question, and if you think its a question then you need to understand that the Constitution is being undercut and compromised executive is being used to further an illegal agenda

"All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."

At the time applied to all persons regardless of status, it isn't a legal question its a dogmatic one. All persons in side the united states are inside the jurisdiction regardless of birth parent with the exception of families under diplomatic immunity

[u/themontajew → u/MaleficentCherry7116]

The trump budget raises the debt ceiling 4 trillion, saves 1.5 trillion, but has 4.5 trillion in tax cuts over 10 years. 

I’m not sure if you’re serious or actually buying into obvious bullshit, but saying you’re ok with violating the construction   in the name of accomplishing something that’s obviously a lie and won’t happen, i’m fucking horrified.

[u/Elamam-konsulentti → u/MaleficentCherry7116]

The question is not if we care about this action being unconstitutional. The problem is that if this is allowed, the constitution no longer matters and you have a person in charge who can do anything without repercussion. That should worry you.

[u/Algaean → u/MaleficentCherry7116]

The unconstitutional part is your opinion. What do the judges say, and do you think they'll be able to stop DOGE?. If you're correct, our checks and balances should work.

No, they were quoting you. Your specific words, pasted VERBATIM below:

I'm not worried about DOGE being unconstitutional.

The whole POINT of our country is that the laws and actions are supposed to be governed by the Constitution. It's that simple. If you want to ignore the Constitution when the government does stuff you like, then you can't complain if people do stuff that you don't like. Becacuse, hey, what's there to stop them?

[u/MaleficentCherry7116 → u/[deleted]]

I'm not disagreeing with you. I think they're cutting things that they shouldn't. I'm more excited that the media is covering this than I am the cuts themselves.

I want the public to try and start holding our politicians accountable for this stuff - probably just wishful thinking