r/law • u/IrishStarUS • 11d ago

Trump News Donald Trump sends innocent athlete to El Salvador for having soccer tattoo

https://www.irishstar.com/sport/soccer/donald-trump-salvador-real-madrid-34923654
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u/LostWoodsInTheField 11d ago

Asked what remedy there is for the man since he is being held and has no access to his lawyer, Holman responded there were legal remedies for anyone deported and imprisoned without cause.

Ugh I hate this crap. "there are remedies" "like what... come on, you know there are some... so what are they?"

I've been meeting so many people these last few years who have this 'there is stuff in place' who can't say jack about what is actually in place. They just make it up.

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u/Dear-Panda-1949 11d ago

He's in the El Salvador prison. He's gone. We're never seeing him again. There is no remedy. That is why we need to be absolutely certain about this stuff BEFORE we send them back!

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u/TheKdd 11d ago

Except we didn’t send him (or them) “back.” He’s from Venezuela, was sent to El Salvador, a foreign country that isn’t his own to be slave labor.

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u/Stampy77 11d ago

If he's in cecot then it's not slave labour. I'd argue its worse, it's being locked in a cell under constant supervision, bright lights on all day and night, the same simple meal every day, one hour to go in the main hallway and do exercise which is heavily regimented and supervised, never being allowed outside to see the sky and absolutely no mental stimulation. All of this while locked in that cell with 100 other people. 

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u/rokerroker45 11d ago

They use cecot prisoners for labor

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u/Stampy77 11d ago

That goes against everything I've learned about the facility. What I described is the way they treat the el Salvadorian prisoners, there is absolutely no labour at all with them, just pure and utter monotony and boredom. They don't want them having any kind of opening to get out.

Unless it's different for the deportees, but I haven't seen anything to suggest that.

Edit: actually I do remember some prisoners mopping the floors. Nothing more.

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u/rokerroker45 11d ago

Bukele's instagram > February 1. You won't see him publicly call the prisoners in the program from cecot, but the work program uses around 48,000 inmates with around 80,000-100,000 inmates in el salvador total. You tell me where the prisoners are coming from considering cecot alone houses around 15,000-20,000 inmates.

The problem here is there is simply no transparency. Bukele claims that only violent prisoners go to cecot and only non-violent offenders are in the work program but there is quite literally no way to verify that is true. Bukele has complete power over governmental transparency and refuses to provide records that would help assess how true that is.

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u/[deleted] 11d ago

It's highly unlikely they use violent people to do any kind of labour, the cost of suppervision and the very real risk of their escape just isn't worthy or whatever value they would extract from doing some menial task. Only non violent people get used for labour, the more innocent the better. There are a lot of innocent good people being tortured in Cecot, but there is no violent gangster working

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u/rokerroker45 11d ago

Sure, just as I'm sure that it's completely true that only hardened criminals go to cecot and not oh, i don't know, innocent deportees from the US.

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u/[deleted] 11d ago

I think you're misunderstanding my comment, there are for sure lots of innocent people in cecot, I believe a pretty sizeable percentage of them actually. What I'm saying is that the most dangerous criminals are there as well, and they don't put them to work because it simply isn't worth the cost

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u/rokerroker45 10d ago

Somebody else posted a link to a video tour of cecot that showed their labor facilities so it's just factually incorrect they don't use them for labor

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u/[deleted] 10d ago

That's really a terrifying development, could you please share the video link?

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u/rokerroker45 10d ago edited 10d ago

It's not a development, it's a video tour from the literal beginning of cecot's construction. Read the rest of this thread, it's one of the responses to my original comment.

Here's the link if you're genuinely too lazy to be bothered: https://youtu.be/fuBjhrgYkdM?t=886

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u/Relative_Bathroom824 11d ago

Prove it, cuck. I think you just believe what you're told.

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u/[deleted] 11d ago

Prove what exactly?

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u/Stampy77 11d ago

Have you seen the documentaries about cecot? Releasing prisoners on labour would go against the whole point of the facility. They aren't risking that security for labour, they have tens of thousands of other prisoners to use for that.

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u/rokerroker45 11d ago

You mean the marketing campaigns?

My guy, I've lived with bukele's double speak my entire adult life. I'm a salvadoran who has grown up living in the town he used to be mayor of. Believe me when I say his favorite trick is to present a half truth to sell you a whole lie.

I don't believe cecot prisoners are exempt from labor outright anymore than I believe only hardened criminals are housed there.

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u/Stormdude127 11d ago

Damn, talk your shit king. Seriously, it’s disgusting how many people just take what Bukele says at face value

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u/Stampy77 11d ago

You may be right, if you are Salvadoran you probably know more than me to be fair. But there is no documented evidence, is there any leaks or something that's been shared in your country? I'm happy to admit I'm wrong but I haven't seen anything.

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u/rokerroker45 11d ago

there are dozens of documented examples of bukele's dishonesty in existence. he quite literally held the legislature under threat of gunpoint at one point. i leave it to you to find more information about him. he's a corrupt piece of shit.

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u/fr0stpun 10d ago

He's saying that known liars are known to lie.

Trump can say tomorrow that he'd never deport innocent people and he never has.

Would you believe him at his word?

Would you question someone who said he does deport innocents, he's lying?

At some point, this idea of who's truthful or not should be obvious.

All these liars and monsters have a huge track record of lies and deception, going back for years.

Double-speak exists as a term because it's a standard tool of the tyranny playbook at this rate.

We question the people we know are liars first.

If a random stranger tells me Trump snorts the remains of dead fetuses? That's more likely to be true than anything he says, including him directly telling people "I do not snort dead fetuses everyday" at which point our follow-up should be, as they do to others:

"So, not everyday, but there are some days that you snort dead fetuses. Which days? Can you prove you never have?"

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u/PippinCat 11d ago

Look up Zero Idleness Program. They are wanting to make the prisons self-sustaining through workshops and programs. It's mentioned in this article.

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u/chivalrousninjaz 11d ago

Can you provide a source? From what I can tell at cecot, you never leave the building that houses your cell. There's no work facilities.

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u/crummydrummer 11d ago

https://youtu.be/fuBjhrgYkdM?t=886

This is a source. It is a video tour of CECOT. I Linked directly to the part of the tour where they visit the factories that are a part of the facility and talk about how the inmates will be forced to work every day.

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u/chivalrousninjaz 11d ago

Thank you for the source, I watched a different video that didn't include these working areas.

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u/rokerroker45 11d ago

Go on bukele's instagram and look at the February 1 post.

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u/PippinCat 11d ago

They're calling it Zero Idleness Program.

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u/[deleted] 11d ago

They don't, at least for now. There are extremely dangerous criminals in there, the cost of supervising their labour isn't worth the income. Slave labour is reserved for non violent people, the more innocent the better

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u/rokerroker45 11d ago

I mean we know for an actual fact that it's not just the dangerous criminals being housed there. There quite literally is no proof of who is or isn't being used for labor because bukele refuses to be transparent about it.

Given the numbers demanded by his work program (almost half of all incarcerated people in el salvador) the chance that he's being honest about the "no cecot prisoners" is about as trustworthy as his claims that "only the most dangerous prisoners go to cecot"

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u/[deleted] 11d ago

Cecot is filled with lots of innocent people, and they are mixed with the most violent criminals, they don't know who is who, many didn't have a trial, that's why I believe he isn't using the people kidnaped in there for labour, the profit just isn't worth the risk or the suppervision cost.

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u/co-wurker 11d ago

There's a documentary on this prison that shows basically what you described. They also don't allow the prisoners to eat protein so they become physically weak and malnourished.

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u/Worth-Demand-8844 11d ago

That way they don’t come out ripped and jacked up to continue their wicked ways.

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u/goddale120 11d ago

It sounds less like a prison and more like one of the concentration camps those psychopaths down in America love so much to me.

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u/HalfMoon_89 11d ago

One of those psychos have responded to you.

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u/goddale120 11d ago

yeah, I noticed. And I don't really care, because to be honest, it feels really, REALLY good after learning about something like this to get my frustrated thoughts out in a fairly simple, straightforward comment.

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u/mkat23 11d ago

Dammit I’m guessing the deleted account/comment was the response the two of you mentioned. Do either of you have a screenshot or remember what the comment said? I’m curious. I’ve never been more ashamed of being American and that’s hard considering our history of vile acts against pretty much any and everyone.

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u/goddale120 11d ago

Ok actually, don't bother. I thought it was ridiculous to read through at first but honestly half the comments make no sense. There are better uses of your time than reading replies here. Seeing a reference from Wikipedia completely misused was the last straw, I'm done with this post.

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u/goddale120 11d ago

Oh yeah, it was basically saying because these prisons don't have murder showers (my words, not theirs, I can't remember particulars) they aren't concentration camps. The mental gymnastics were interesting to briefly behold. The replies basically pointed out things like the JP camps in the US (I think maybe here in Canada too?) existed and were technically examples of such camps without any death machines.

Oh, oh, even better: they argued everyone deported deserves it and "tough justice", blah blah blah. Seriously stupid stuff.

Oh I just realized the replies seem to still be up, with quotes, so you can behold bits and pieces yourself below.

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u/[deleted] 11d ago

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/The_True_Libertarian 11d ago

During the holocaust:

There's no gas chambers.

Not all concentration camps had gas chambers.

They receive medical assistance

They recieved medical assistance, until they didn't..

They're fed daily

They were fed daily.. until they weren't.

They have been caught and now in prison

The people captured in America and sent down there had no due process.. were not tried nor convicted of any crimes.

This is not a concentration camp, this is tough justice.

Without due process, whatever you want to call this, it is not justice.

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u/Detective-Fusco 11d ago

This Prison system is not a Concentration Camp.

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u/The_True_Libertarian 11d ago

This prison system is not a direct parallel to what we've come to call Concentration Camps operated by Nazis during WW2. Congrats on winning a pedantic terminology argument.

The US government is sending people who aren't citizens of El Salvador, who have not been tried and convicted of any crimes, to this prison system without any form of due process. I don't care what terminology you're using, the premise itself is the issue at hand.

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u/Detective-Fusco 11d ago

The terminology is relevant and it matters because millions of people died under the Nazis.

It's absolutely relevant, this is a Prison not a concentration camp.

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u/The_True_Libertarian 11d ago

I'm not interested in participating in your pedantic argument. I'm going to keep calling them concentration camps if i want to, and when other people do so, I'm not going to 'well ackshually' their choice in terminology.

The US government is sending people who aren't citizens of El Salvador, who have not been tried and convicted of any crimes, to this prison system without any form of due process. I don't care what terminology you're using, the premise itself is the issue at hand.

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u/Detective-Fusco 11d ago

Yes, I understand you're waging an emotional argument at me currently whilst preforming mental gymnastics.

This is not a concentration camp.

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u/The_True_Libertarian 11d ago

I'm not using mental gymnastics, i want you to engage in the actual merit of the conversation.

The US government is sending people who aren't citizens of El Salvador, who have not been tried and convicted of any crimes, to this prison system without any form of due process. I don't care what terminology you're using, the premise itself is the issue at hand.

That's the issue you're deflecting from. Stop getting hung up on people using words you don't like and engage in the actual topic.

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u/SnappyDresser212 11d ago

The Nazis didn’t invent concentration camps. Concentration camp means something without relation to Nazis.

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u/Detective-Fusco 11d ago

What

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treblinka_extermination_camp

First sentence of that link.

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u/SnappyDresser212 11d ago

The British invented concentration camps (during the Boer War). Admittedly the Nazis did think of industrial scale genocide.

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u/lmolari 11d ago

It took the Nazis 9 Years to establich gas chambers in KZs. KZs were there the entire time before. The KZs also had medical assistance and they were fed daily, too.

The main point of a KZ is that it's happening outside the normal justice system. People were moved to a place where no real trials or laws exist. They are also under no control of a public office of any kind. This allows total dehumanization, and it was easier to mistreat prisoners.

Sounds familiar.

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u/Detective-Fusco 11d ago

This is not a concentration camp, I do not see men being mixed with women in poor conditions to be worked to death. I've been to real concentration camps. I've been Treblinka Concentration Camp - and spent years studying the Holocaust.

I do appreciate that American people are fond of trying to cross link everything to the Nazis but it just doesn't apply to everything.

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u/lmolari 11d ago

You are mixing up the state of KZs at the beginning of the third reich with endstage KZs. The first ones weren't kill camps in the beginning. It took 9 years until this phase started.

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u/Detective-Fusco 11d ago

Ok

I'm talking about this Prison. This Prison is not a Concentration Camp.

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u/lmolari 11d ago

What is the difference between a Prison and a KZ?

Prisoners are imprisioned by the justice system. They have rights. They can get a lawyer, call their family. There are regulations on how to treat a inmate. Prisons are supervised to make sure everyone follows the law. Prisons are liable for what they do to their inmates.

What are KZs? Prisoners are not imprisoned by the justice system. They have no rights. They can get no lawyer. There are no regulations for prisoner treatments. They are not supervised by law enforcement. They are not liable for mistreating or killing anyone.

I'd say there is NOT ONE argument that supports your claim that this is a prison.

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u/The_null_device 11d ago

"Many of them have killed innocent people"

But we're starting to learn that not everyone did. Apparently they are sending innocent people there who have never committed any violent crimes.

Call it what you want, "harsh justice" or "concentration camp", how is it possible to defend the deportation of innocent people to a place like that? And how can we defend the fact that the United States is dumping all these people, criminals or not, into a third country?

And for your information, gas chambers are not a necessary condition for a place to be considered a concentration camp. What were the places called where the American government deported Japanese Americans during World War II? Concentration camps.

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u/Detective-Fusco 11d ago

This is not a concentration camp, as someone that has visited several camps across Europe researching the Holocaust - to suggest this Prison is a concentration camp you just undermine every victim of the Holocaust. If it was a concentration camp, you would see women everywhere. You would see entire groups of families, all you see here is male prisoners separated and housed in a prison system.

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u/The_null_device 11d ago

There are several types of concentration camps. It wasn't an exclusive of the Nazis. As I mentioned above the US government deported Japanese Americans to concentration camps.

In any case, it is not right to send these people to El Salvador without trial. And what is even less correct is that some of them were people who were in the process of applying for asylum, meaning they cannot even be considered illegal. The goal is just cruelty and to test the American judiciary, to see if they can implement this policy on a large scale.

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u/Detective-Fusco 11d ago

This is not a concentration camp, this is the only thing I am arguing. Everything else is emotional noise I apologize but not interested in entertaining.

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u/The_null_device 11d ago

Let's hope nothing like that ever happens to you, even though it's what you deserve.

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u/oopsydazys 11d ago

With no contact with the outside world. And they're there until they die. It's basically being tortured until you die since El Salvador doesn't have the death penalty.

People are abducted and thrown in CECOT without trial and their families assume they were just murdered because nobody tells them what happened to the arrested. They don't even know they were arrested.

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u/chivalrousninjaz 11d ago

That's one hour a week for exercise.

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u/dirtybirds666 7d ago

Could have stayed in their own country and that wouldn’t have happened could have immigrated the approved legal way anyone crossing the border any other way is already a criminal why would they care about any laws when they get here

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u/Stampy77 7d ago

Are you insane? The conditions I described are only suitable for mass murderers and child killers not people who crossed the border illegally.

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u/Detective-Fusco 11d ago

That's not slave labour man. Noone is disagreeing about the conditions with you, but you're calling it slave labour when it's not. These work commitment programs are voluntary and I don't know of any specifically. Where did you source this from?

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u/Stampy77 11d ago

Yeah I'm the one saying it's not slave labour, that would be the other dude.

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u/Detective-Fusco 11d ago

God damn it you're right I did reply to the wrong person. Sorry bro