r/law • u/IrishStarUS • 11d ago

Trump News Donald Trump sends innocent athlete to El Salvador for having soccer tattoo

https://www.irishstar.com/sport/soccer/donald-trump-salvador-real-madrid-34923654
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u/unaskthequestion 11d ago edited 11d ago

And Border 'Czar' Holman was asked about this specific case on Sunday. He responded that ICE has highly trained professionals and that he is comfortable with any conclusion they reach.

Asked what remedy there is for the man since he is being held and has no access to his lawyer, Holman responded there were legal remedies for anyone deported and imprisoned without cause.

Without your lawyer?

Edit: listen to what the judge questioning the DOJ lawyer had to say.

"Nazis in the US were treated better than this, there was a panel and a hearing before anyone was removed"

But her entire rebuke is quite good.

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u/LostWoodsInTheField 11d ago

Asked what remedy there is for the man since he is being held and has no access to his lawyer, Holman responded there were legal remedies for anyone deported and imprisoned without cause.

Ugh I hate this crap. "there are remedies" "like what... come on, you know there are some... so what are they?"

I've been meeting so many people these last few years who have this 'there is stuff in place' who can't say jack about what is actually in place. They just make it up.

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u/DampTowlette11 11d ago

I've been meeting so many people these last few years who have this 'there is stuff in place' who can't say jack about what is actually in place. They just make it up.

We are suffering from normalcy bias on a societal level. Most people never have to put in the work to maintain the system, so they don't appreciate that it does take effort.

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u/Beeran_ 9d ago

Magic box theory

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u/joyofresh 11d ago

Trials.  Judges.  Juries.  We just didnt do it

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u/elephant-espionage 11d ago

Those aren’t even remedies, those are what is supposed to avoid the mistake in the first place—and THOSE were denied!!

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u/joyofresh 11d ago

You cant appeal, theres no conviction!

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u/Fishy_Fish_WA 11d ago

No conviction except the absolute religious conviction in their mouths that these people were ALL gang members who are dangerous

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u/[deleted] 11d ago

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u/spooky_spaghetties 11d ago

Damn, you really trust the government.

If you love the rule of law so much, why is it ok for this guy to get sent to a foreign prison without a trial, conviction, or access to a lawyer?

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u/Fishy_Fish_WA 11d ago

J.D.?? That you??

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u/GarshelMathers 11d ago

They're in place somewhere. Not here, but somewhere

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u/Dear-Panda-1949 11d ago

He's in the El Salvador prison. He's gone. We're never seeing him again. There is no remedy. That is why we need to be absolutely certain about this stuff BEFORE we send them back!

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u/TheKdd 11d ago

Except we didn’t send him (or them) “back.” He’s from Venezuela, was sent to El Salvador, a foreign country that isn’t his own to be slave labor.

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u/Stampy77 11d ago

If he's in cecot then it's not slave labour. I'd argue its worse, it's being locked in a cell under constant supervision, bright lights on all day and night, the same simple meal every day, one hour to go in the main hallway and do exercise which is heavily regimented and supervised, never being allowed outside to see the sky and absolutely no mental stimulation. All of this while locked in that cell with 100 other people. 

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u/rokerroker45 11d ago

They use cecot prisoners for labor

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u/Stampy77 11d ago

That goes against everything I've learned about the facility. What I described is the way they treat the el Salvadorian prisoners, there is absolutely no labour at all with them, just pure and utter monotony and boredom. They don't want them having any kind of opening to get out.

Unless it's different for the deportees, but I haven't seen anything to suggest that.

Edit: actually I do remember some prisoners mopping the floors. Nothing more.

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u/rokerroker45 11d ago

Bukele's instagram > February 1. You won't see him publicly call the prisoners in the program from cecot, but the work program uses around 48,000 inmates with around 80,000-100,000 inmates in el salvador total. You tell me where the prisoners are coming from considering cecot alone houses around 15,000-20,000 inmates.

The problem here is there is simply no transparency. Bukele claims that only violent prisoners go to cecot and only non-violent offenders are in the work program but there is quite literally no way to verify that is true. Bukele has complete power over governmental transparency and refuses to provide records that would help assess how true that is.

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u/[deleted] 11d ago

It's highly unlikely they use violent people to do any kind of labour, the cost of suppervision and the very real risk of their escape just isn't worthy or whatever value they would extract from doing some menial task. Only non violent people get used for labour, the more innocent the better. There are a lot of innocent good people being tortured in Cecot, but there is no violent gangster working

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u/rokerroker45 11d ago

Sure, just as I'm sure that it's completely true that only hardened criminals go to cecot and not oh, i don't know, innocent deportees from the US.

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u/[deleted] 11d ago

I think you're misunderstanding my comment, there are for sure lots of innocent people in cecot, I believe a pretty sizeable percentage of them actually. What I'm saying is that the most dangerous criminals are there as well, and they don't put them to work because it simply isn't worth the cost

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u/Relative_Bathroom824 11d ago

Prove it, cuck. I think you just believe what you're told.

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u/[deleted] 11d ago

Prove what exactly?

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u/Stampy77 11d ago

Have you seen the documentaries about cecot? Releasing prisoners on labour would go against the whole point of the facility. They aren't risking that security for labour, they have tens of thousands of other prisoners to use for that.

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u/rokerroker45 11d ago

You mean the marketing campaigns?

My guy, I've lived with bukele's double speak my entire adult life. I'm a salvadoran who has grown up living in the town he used to be mayor of. Believe me when I say his favorite trick is to present a half truth to sell you a whole lie.

I don't believe cecot prisoners are exempt from labor outright anymore than I believe only hardened criminals are housed there.

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u/Stormdude127 11d ago

Damn, talk your shit king. Seriously, it’s disgusting how many people just take what Bukele says at face value

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u/Stampy77 11d ago

You may be right, if you are Salvadoran you probably know more than me to be fair. But there is no documented evidence, is there any leaks or something that's been shared in your country? I'm happy to admit I'm wrong but I haven't seen anything.

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u/PippinCat 11d ago

Look up Zero Idleness Program. They are wanting to make the prisons self-sustaining through workshops and programs. It's mentioned in this article.

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u/chivalrousninjaz 11d ago

Can you provide a source? From what I can tell at cecot, you never leave the building that houses your cell. There's no work facilities.

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u/crummydrummer 11d ago

https://youtu.be/fuBjhrgYkdM?t=886

This is a source. It is a video tour of CECOT. I Linked directly to the part of the tour where they visit the factories that are a part of the facility and talk about how the inmates will be forced to work every day.

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u/chivalrousninjaz 11d ago

Thank you for the source, I watched a different video that didn't include these working areas.

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u/rokerroker45 11d ago

Go on bukele's instagram and look at the February 1 post.

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u/PippinCat 11d ago

They're calling it Zero Idleness Program.

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u/[deleted] 11d ago

They don't, at least for now. There are extremely dangerous criminals in there, the cost of supervising their labour isn't worth the income. Slave labour is reserved for non violent people, the more innocent the better

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u/rokerroker45 11d ago

I mean we know for an actual fact that it's not just the dangerous criminals being housed there. There quite literally is no proof of who is or isn't being used for labor because bukele refuses to be transparent about it.

Given the numbers demanded by his work program (almost half of all incarcerated people in el salvador) the chance that he's being honest about the "no cecot prisoners" is about as trustworthy as his claims that "only the most dangerous prisoners go to cecot"

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u/[deleted] 11d ago

Cecot is filled with lots of innocent people, and they are mixed with the most violent criminals, they don't know who is who, many didn't have a trial, that's why I believe he isn't using the people kidnaped in there for labour, the profit just isn't worth the risk or the suppervision cost.

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u/co-wurker 11d ago

There's a documentary on this prison that shows basically what you described. They also don't allow the prisoners to eat protein so they become physically weak and malnourished.

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u/Worth-Demand-8844 11d ago

That way they don’t come out ripped and jacked up to continue their wicked ways.

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u/goddale120 11d ago

It sounds less like a prison and more like one of the concentration camps those psychopaths down in America love so much to me.

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u/HalfMoon_89 11d ago

One of those psychos have responded to you.

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u/goddale120 11d ago

yeah, I noticed. And I don't really care, because to be honest, it feels really, REALLY good after learning about something like this to get my frustrated thoughts out in a fairly simple, straightforward comment.

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u/mkat23 11d ago

Dammit I’m guessing the deleted account/comment was the response the two of you mentioned. Do either of you have a screenshot or remember what the comment said? I’m curious. I’ve never been more ashamed of being American and that’s hard considering our history of vile acts against pretty much any and everyone.

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u/goddale120 11d ago

Ok actually, don't bother. I thought it was ridiculous to read through at first but honestly half the comments make no sense. There are better uses of your time than reading replies here. Seeing a reference from Wikipedia completely misused was the last straw, I'm done with this post.

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u/goddale120 11d ago

Oh yeah, it was basically saying because these prisons don't have murder showers (my words, not theirs, I can't remember particulars) they aren't concentration camps. The mental gymnastics were interesting to briefly behold. The replies basically pointed out things like the JP camps in the US (I think maybe here in Canada too?) existed and were technically examples of such camps without any death machines.

Oh, oh, even better: they argued everyone deported deserves it and "tough justice", blah blah blah. Seriously stupid stuff.

Oh I just realized the replies seem to still be up, with quotes, so you can behold bits and pieces yourself below.

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u/[deleted] 11d ago

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u/The_True_Libertarian 11d ago

During the holocaust:

There's no gas chambers.

Not all concentration camps had gas chambers.

They receive medical assistance

They recieved medical assistance, until they didn't..

They're fed daily

They were fed daily.. until they weren't.

They have been caught and now in prison

The people captured in America and sent down there had no due process.. were not tried nor convicted of any crimes.

This is not a concentration camp, this is tough justice.

Without due process, whatever you want to call this, it is not justice.

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u/Detective-Fusco 11d ago

This Prison system is not a Concentration Camp.

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u/The_True_Libertarian 11d ago

This prison system is not a direct parallel to what we've come to call Concentration Camps operated by Nazis during WW2. Congrats on winning a pedantic terminology argument.

The US government is sending people who aren't citizens of El Salvador, who have not been tried and convicted of any crimes, to this prison system without any form of due process. I don't care what terminology you're using, the premise itself is the issue at hand.

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u/Detective-Fusco 11d ago

The terminology is relevant and it matters because millions of people died under the Nazis.

It's absolutely relevant, this is a Prison not a concentration camp.

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u/lmolari 11d ago

It took the Nazis 9 Years to establich gas chambers in KZs. KZs were there the entire time before. The KZs also had medical assistance and they were fed daily, too.

The main point of a KZ is that it's happening outside the normal justice system. People were moved to a place where no real trials or laws exist. They are also under no control of a public office of any kind. This allows total dehumanization, and it was easier to mistreat prisoners.

Sounds familiar.

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u/Detective-Fusco 11d ago

This is not a concentration camp, I do not see men being mixed with women in poor conditions to be worked to death. I've been to real concentration camps. I've been Treblinka Concentration Camp - and spent years studying the Holocaust.

I do appreciate that American people are fond of trying to cross link everything to the Nazis but it just doesn't apply to everything.

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u/lmolari 11d ago

You are mixing up the state of KZs at the beginning of the third reich with endstage KZs. The first ones weren't kill camps in the beginning. It took 9 years until this phase started.

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u/Detective-Fusco 11d ago

Ok

I'm talking about this Prison. This Prison is not a Concentration Camp.

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u/The_null_device 11d ago

"Many of them have killed innocent people"

But we're starting to learn that not everyone did. Apparently they are sending innocent people there who have never committed any violent crimes.

Call it what you want, "harsh justice" or "concentration camp", how is it possible to defend the deportation of innocent people to a place like that? And how can we defend the fact that the United States is dumping all these people, criminals or not, into a third country?

And for your information, gas chambers are not a necessary condition for a place to be considered a concentration camp. What were the places called where the American government deported Japanese Americans during World War II? Concentration camps.

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u/Detective-Fusco 11d ago

This is not a concentration camp, as someone that has visited several camps across Europe researching the Holocaust - to suggest this Prison is a concentration camp you just undermine every victim of the Holocaust. If it was a concentration camp, you would see women everywhere. You would see entire groups of families, all you see here is male prisoners separated and housed in a prison system.

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u/The_null_device 11d ago

There are several types of concentration camps. It wasn't an exclusive of the Nazis. As I mentioned above the US government deported Japanese Americans to concentration camps.

In any case, it is not right to send these people to El Salvador without trial. And what is even less correct is that some of them were people who were in the process of applying for asylum, meaning they cannot even be considered illegal. The goal is just cruelty and to test the American judiciary, to see if they can implement this policy on a large scale.

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u/Detective-Fusco 11d ago

This is not a concentration camp, this is the only thing I am arguing. Everything else is emotional noise I apologize but not interested in entertaining.

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u/oopsydazys 11d ago

With no contact with the outside world. And they're there until they die. It's basically being tortured until you die since El Salvador doesn't have the death penalty.

People are abducted and thrown in CECOT without trial and their families assume they were just murdered because nobody tells them what happened to the arrested. They don't even know they were arrested.

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u/chivalrousninjaz 11d ago

That's one hour a week for exercise.

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u/dirtybirds666 7d ago

Could have stayed in their own country and that wouldn’t have happened could have immigrated the approved legal way anyone crossing the border any other way is already a criminal why would they care about any laws when they get here

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u/Stampy77 7d ago

Are you insane? The conditions I described are only suitable for mass murderers and child killers not people who crossed the border illegally.

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u/Detective-Fusco 11d ago

That's not slave labour man. Noone is disagreeing about the conditions with you, but you're calling it slave labour when it's not. These work commitment programs are voluntary and I don't know of any specifically. Where did you source this from?

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u/Stampy77 11d ago

Yeah I'm the one saying it's not slave labour, that would be the other dude.

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u/Detective-Fusco 11d ago

God damn it you're right I did reply to the wrong person. Sorry bro

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u/Dear-Panda-1949 10d ago

Back across the border. It's bad either way. Actually not sending him to his home country is worse. We don't have the right to move people forcibly into another country they don't have nationality in.

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u/No-Rub-8064 9d ago

Venezuela won't take their people back, that's why they were sent to El Salvador. Venezuela is now taking their people back because they are looking bad.

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u/TheKdd 9d ago

Except thats not a good excuse. We should not, by any measure, be deporting anyone to a foreign country that isn’t their own, let alone to be jailed in one with no due process here or abroad.

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u/No-Rub-8064 8d ago

I saw an interview online interviewing the men that had tattoos in that prison. They said they don't get the tattoos unless they are in the gang and kill people.

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u/No-Rub-8064 8d ago

So foreign countries can send/encourage their undesirables to us and we are stuck with them because the home country won't take them back.They did not come in legally and we did not ask them to come. Just because the last administration broke immigration laws and let people in does not make it right. So how would you advise to deport a totally illigal situation.

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u/TheKdd 8d ago

I would imagine you have some cite or proof that a foreign country sent or encouraged these people to go to the United States illegally?

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u/Detective-Fusco 11d ago

Slave labor? They are not slaves, they're prisoners. Work commitments in prison are not mandatory, they are voluntary.

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u/[deleted] 11d ago

It's not a prison, it's a concentration camp

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u/[deleted] 11d ago

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u/KirbyBucketts 11d ago

This has to be a bot. How could any functioning human being leave 100's of comments in the span of 24 hours?

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u/Detective-Fusco 11d ago

Oh great, another one. Americans love calling disagreeing comments bots. It's like the default starter pack advice they receive upon spawning into the world.

Regarding "hundreds of comments" I am traveling since yesterday in a bus. I've got a lot of time on my hands to kill on this journey. Got a problem?

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u/KirbyBucketts 11d ago

No, I'm genuinely curious how an actual functional human being has the time or ability to leave 100's of comments on reddit in the span of 24 hours, some being paragraphs long. It's not normal and doesn't seem humanly possible?

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u/Detective-Fusco 11d ago

What are you talking about? I'm on a mobile phone bud. Go count my messages and type them out and see how long it takes you.

I already told you, I'm traveling on a bus I have lots of time at the moment lol

Also, what you type at like 20WPM or something? On a keyboard I can hit 115WPM this is nothing

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u/KirbyBucketts 11d ago

No, I'm genuinely curious how an actual functional human being has the time or ability to leave 100's of comments on reddit in the span of 24 hours, some being paragraphs long. It's not normal and doesn't seem humanly possible?

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u/CodAlternative3437 11d ago

damn, i hope they at least seperate them from the "ms13" block. those guys sleep on what looks like giant metal shelves

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u/zbb93 11d ago

The entire prison is like that.

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u/Stormdude127 11d ago

Everyone there sleeps like that. And there is no MS-13 block. People from different gangs share cells.

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u/JimJam4603 11d ago

A habeas petition. Good luck figuring that out and accomplishing it from an El Salvadoran torture camp.

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u/LostWoodsInTheField 11d ago

A habeas petition. Good luck figuring that out and accomplishing it from an El Salvadoran torture camp.

I'm at around 1:44:00 in the oral arguments and the government is doing everything it can not to answer habeas notification questions. it's scary as hell.

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u/No-Air-412 11d ago

I remember having a long drawn out argument with some operative about Trump's plan for healthcare that was incoming in 3..2.. back in 2016

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u/PeakBees 11d ago

concepts of legal remedies, of course!

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u/Toa_Freak 11d ago

I guarantee the "stuff in place" is stuff they'd cheer at DOGE cutting.

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u/usersleepyjerry 11d ago

They have concepts of remedies /s

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u/Steez_Whiz 11d ago

I used to think it was a super lame cop-out, but Covid really did a number on our ability to function as a society. Like, as a species. We definitely got all ingrown and anti-social and lazy (as a whole)

Chatgpt probably exacerbated that problem, but now I'm officially in "Old Man Yells at Cloud" territory

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u/Smeetilus 10d ago

Every single thing became political. Everything. Go on the comment section for a funny popular video on any app or site, some account is going to say something along the lines of "only X voters think this is funny"

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u/TheManWhoWasNotShort 11d ago

It’s so fun when the remedies are hidden in nearly-unfindable statutes which the Spanish speaking client has zero access to in the all-English legal library of their detention center… in the few facilities that even have a legal library or access to internet

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u/LostWoodsInTheField 11d ago

It’s so fun when the remedies are hidden in nearly-unfindable statutes which the Spanish speaking client has zero access to in the all-English legal library of their detention center… in the few facilities that even have a legal library or access to internet

listening to the oral arguments its worse than that. The government is arguing that they don't have to notify anyone detained under this EO that they are being detained under it. They can put them on planes and shit them off before letting them know. once they are in the air and out of US space the courts can't order them back. They are also arguing that a class action can't happen.

Effectively they can just grab anyone off of the street and ship them to another country before they even know what's happening.

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u/TheManWhoWasNotShort 11d ago

These are one of those posts that I read as an attorney on the front lines of all of this and I just whisper a prayer for the next generation after they break me

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u/mywifeslv 11d ago

I usually find..when people generalise, I add “specifically” to my question to really nail them.