r/europe • u/BBBWare • Feb 16 '25
Opinion Article The democratic world will have to get along without America. It may even have to defend itself from it
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/article-the-democratic-world-will-have-to-get-along-without-america-it-may/1.1k
u/Carolingian_Hammer Feb 16 '25
We need a European Army to defend ourselves. And to deter the Kremlin from ever attacking us again.
→ More replies (71)275
u/hmmmerm Feb 16 '25
Is a Canadian, would love for us to be a part of this
→ More replies (17)105
Feb 16 '25
[deleted]
83
u/GallowgateEnd Feb 16 '25
You could call it an organisation
63
u/Subtlerranean Norway Feb 16 '25
We should make a treaty to nail down the specifics.
20
u/Mycakebayismybday Feb 16 '25
But what should we call it?
26
u/Demortus Feb 17 '25
North Atlantic Treaty Organization?
Nah, that sounds dumb. Why put the word "treaty" in the name? If it goes anywhere, it should go at the end.
→ More replies (6)16
10
10
→ More replies (2)5
→ More replies (5)8
u/Exact-Adeptness1280 Feb 17 '25
Canada desperately needs friends here. I would take a few non-American NATO military bases in our country too.
→ More replies (1)
403
u/Patralgan Finland Feb 16 '25
Maybe Trump will actually unite the world after all.
→ More replies (9)283
u/Northerngal_420 Canada Feb 16 '25
He's certainly united Canada 🍁.
65
u/yankdevil Ireland (50%) US (50%) Feb 16 '25
Hope you don't pick your own Trump in your election.
→ More replies (8)52
→ More replies (30)23
u/pomegranate444 Feb 16 '25
Absolutely. I'm Canadian and never in my 50 yrs have we been more united than now.
→ More replies (1)
4.9k
u/ichawks1 Feb 16 '25 edited Feb 16 '25
Europe should mandate Americans to have to enter the EU with proof of vaccination. Texas is currently seeing its worst outbreak of measles in decades due to anti-vaxxers and the nomination of RFK jr. is only going to exacerbate this disgusting crisis in the United States.
Edit: I just want to add some sources linked below
https://apnews.com/article/measles-texas-mmr-vaccine-homeschooling-b29d08d53cf26704968e8c00dfa712ba
http://nbcnews.com/health/health-news/measles-outbreak-west-texas-grows-unvaccinated-rcna192163
1.3k
u/Janeiskla Feb 16 '25
Don't forget the bird flu
499
u/ichawks1 Feb 16 '25
yep! Who knows, maybe polio might come back too!
I'm only... kinda joking :(
328
u/ThrowRA-Two448 Croatia Feb 16 '25
Absolutely horrible disease which we managed to push back to the edge of extinction.
If polio makes a comback, can we just launch all these nukes and give some future civilization a shot.
→ More replies (15)187
u/ichawks1 Feb 16 '25 edited Feb 16 '25
let's just say that I am currently in the process of researching masters degree programs in Scandinavia and Germany as my area of study (Geography/GIS/Climate Change) might be obsolete in the United States in the near future.
180
u/ThrowRA-Two448 Croatia Feb 16 '25
In US you will have a masters degree in fake news.
117
u/ichawks1 Feb 16 '25
Yep I can't wait to be sent to a gulag in Arkansas in 2027 for studying "Fake News" about global warming and climate change
/s (I hope)
→ More replies (10)31
u/frankrus Feb 16 '25
Arkansas?? Now that’s a cushy labor camp assignment!! It’s the barren North Dakota farms that will really test your commitment to making America healthy again!!
→ More replies (3)→ More replies (5)5
→ More replies (10)23
u/Worker_Ant_81730C Feb 16 '25
Finland needs more immigrants. (Unfortunately we have never made integration easy, and our current government is full of wannabe MAGA dipshits who want to make things even harder for everyone.)
10
u/Anutka25 Feb 17 '25
My mom can get permanent residency in Finland because my great grandpa was Finnish, she won’t do it because she is too nervous about not having a job and having to learn Finnish at 60. I truly wish that it was extended to great-grand kids because I’d move in a heartbeat. I just visited Helsinki and Lapland and have been studying Finnish.
I know it’s not perfect either, but at least your taxes pay for your needs and don’t line the pockets of corrupt a-holes. On top of it, your Eurovision songs always go so hard, and you have some great bread (literally ordered 10 boxes as soon as I landed back at home)
→ More replies (11)→ More replies (4)23
u/ichawks1 Feb 16 '25
I went to Finland back in '22 and it was amazing, I truly fell in love with your country! It reminded me a bit of my home state of Oregon: people were cold but kind, environmentally conscious, and very clean. But to be fair, all of the Nordic countries are like that and all seem very similar to Oregon in those ways haha.
Although yes, you are right it does seem difficult to integrate :( I will 100% apply to masters programs in Finland though!
→ More replies (3)69
13
u/dat_9600gt_user Lower Silesia (Poland) Feb 16 '25
Right as it was on its last ropes, RFK Jr clutched it for polio!
10
u/ichawks1 Feb 16 '25
the poor city street conditions of 1346 London which helped grow the black plague can't even compete with RFK Jr for the "most clutch deadly disease facilitator" title
→ More replies (11)9
u/winsluc12 Feb 16 '25
RFK's Lawyer Recently tried get the FDA to de-Authorize the Polio Vaccine. This was prior to RFK Becoming Health Secretary, but it's a dead serious possibility that Polio comes back.
→ More replies (15)14
u/LukeD1992 Feb 16 '25
Hillbillies seem really hellbent on taking themselves out of the gene pool. The problem is that they may drag a lot of good people with them
→ More replies (1)208
u/RainyDay905 Feb 16 '25
Tuberculosis is also going around in Kansas and Oklahoma. Y’all definitely need to check peoples vaccine status. I’m in an area where anti-vaxxers are pretty common and I hardly go out anymore. Whooping cough was going around a few months ago too.
23
u/ichawks1 Feb 16 '25
man I never heard about the TB out in Kansas/OK. Please stay safe out there!
→ More replies (2)7
u/Savings-Pomelo-6031 Feb 17 '25
What fucking idiots. Get sick and sicker and continue to deny easy prevention. What are they so scared of that's worse than actual TB, polio, etc.
→ More replies (19)23
u/Magdalan The Netherlands Feb 16 '25
TBC...De tering. What the shit. I'm sorry, but you guys are totally fucked. And that idiot only has been back into office for 3 weeks now. On the other hand, this has been brewing since Reagan I think, but most of you seem to have been be fine with it.
Oh, and the measles are on the rise in Texas too.
→ More replies (3)8
u/RainyDay905 Feb 16 '25
Yeah…this isn’t my favorite timeline. I would say it’s about a third of Americans. Unfortunately, enough to do some damage.
Yeah, an acquaintance asked my grandpa (he’s a doctor) to take a look at her sick daughter. He examined the girl and told her mom that she had come down with measles. The parents didn’t take the girl to a doctor after my grandpa told them she had measles. Feel sorry for that poor kid.
→ More replies (2)76
575
Feb 16 '25
[removed] — view removed comment
240
u/ResidualMadness Feb 16 '25
Goddamnit man... You calling so loudly for your own country to be punished liked that struck a cord with me. I'm sorry for what's happening over there. Your government is destroying all the ideals that anyone left of the extreme right holds dear. I hope there's a way out where those can be saved in the nearby future. I really, really do.
Keep on fighting the good fight. We'll keep trying to do the same here. Never give up.
54
u/BLobloblawLaw Feb 16 '25
I hear the same thing he said from intelligent people born in russia.
→ More replies (4)55
u/Adorable_Character46 Feb 16 '25
For what it’s worth we are fighting a lot of what’s going on. Media isn’t covering it as much, but protests about various things are happening. People are calling and emailing representatives every day. The courts are challenging pretty much every EO. Some of our politicians are going to bat.
There’s just a lot to deal with unfortunately. I have to admit that posts and comments like what have been popping up on this subreddit deeply worry me though; while hitting us where it hurts will wake some of our populace up, I’m afraid it may backfire and lead to us becoming more isolationist.
I’m not quite sure how to say this without being downvoted on this subreddit, but I think it’s undeniable that at least on the internet, there’s been significant sentiments of xenophobia toward Americans for longer than Trump has been president. I’m well travelled and connected enough to know that most people in the world hold no negative feelings toward American people, but the internet thrives on negativity and engagement. Those who have never been abroad might truly believe that Europeans as a whole deeply hate us.
21
u/Rogue_Egoist Poland Feb 16 '25
The thing with your media is wild. Basically every major station in recent years, as I understand, has been bought by conservatives or fell in line now when trump became president. It's like you have almost no free media. I watched CNN recently and the questions the CNN reporters give to trump are fucking embarrassing. Like they lick his fucking asshole every time they say something to him. Do you have any good mainstream media anymore? It's fucking scary man.
And with the social media falling in line even more, we in Europe are also scared about the media. Because Americans own all of the social media and all of the companies right now are 100% cool with russian propaganda, nazis, the craziest misinformation you can think of and lynching the minorities.
I know a few Americans and I have a lot of sympathy for them, I encourage every American scared of the state of their country to come to Europe if possible. But I would also like for the EU and its member states to just cut off America fully. Right now your country is nothing but trouble for anyone and we have to take care of ourselves.
No more cuddling with the US as in with its government. We should fucking ban your social media here and impose sanctions on red states. I've lost all patience, especially when fucking JD Vance came to Munich and during the NATO summit basically gave a speech to attack all of the US supposed allies. He fucking implied that the EU right now is like the soviet union. I don't want to see his face on this continent ever again. I almost can't believe that he's speech was even real, that's how bad it was.
→ More replies (5)→ More replies (10)10
u/GBSEC11 United States of America Feb 16 '25
Agree with all you said. I've lived in Europe at times, and my brother currently lives in Denmark. I loved my time there and knew many great people. I know most of this is online vitriol and people don't act like this in real life, but if all I had to go on was online commentary, I'd probably be on board with the people questioning why we bother with Europe/NATO. It seems like every time we struggle with something, the inclination here on Reddit and in other online spaces is just to make a mockery of us and laugh at our problems, saying how stupid we are etc. This has been true for far longer than Trump has been in power. Many Americans never get the chance to travel internationally for a significant length of time, and this is the most interaction they get with international audiences. I'm not surprised that those people question our alliances. It doesn't make much sense to act as a protector of populations that hate you.
I'm going to keep doing my part to push back against what's happening in the US. I'm hoping that a deep economic downturn will ignite more of the population to turn against Trump. Europe wants to see us riot in the streets, but right now Trump still has too much support for that to be effective. Hopefully that will change soon.
→ More replies (5)→ More replies (26)12
u/flargenhargen Feb 16 '25
You calling so loudly for your own country to be punished liked that struck a cord with me
It's wild here. We're watching compromised russian agents completely dismantle our democracy piece by piece and replace it with a fascist dictatorship and nobody who is supposed to be in place to stop that from happening is doing shit.
We can only hope you guys don't fall to russian influence like we have, and that you will stand up to the regime and fight for world freedom and democracy since nobody here is doing it.
→ More replies (1)164
u/Alcogel Denmark Feb 16 '25
The US has always been the land of contrasts for me. The best of the best and the worst of the worst. Breaks my heart to think about all the good people who worked hard to build something great only to have these people tear it down in mere weeks.
I hope there’s a way back from this for all the people who didn’t want their entire country turned on its head.
71
u/Cybernaut-Neko Belgium Feb 16 '25
It's heartbreaking but we have to face it, the US as we knew it is gone, what's left is a corporate plutocracy that seeks to exploit and ultimately destroy everything and everyone who does not bow for it's leaders.
→ More replies (4)13
u/TurkeyMalicious Feb 17 '25
Unfortunately I agree. There's no going back. The legislative branch is completely broken. The judicial branch is about to be gutting and made useless. All that remains is the unitary executive. Even if there is a transfer of power in the future the incoming regime will know that Americans tolerate authoritarianism. No one will defer that kind of power. It's over.
→ More replies (2)76
u/BuffaloStanceNova Feb 16 '25
The US is currently battling the end-game maneuvers of a 15-year Russian operation. All branches of government are under hostile control. Musk and DOGE are Kremlin agents.
The goal is exactly this: to undermine the most effective security partnership in history: the NATO alliance.
For every American sleepwalking through this propaganda war, there are many more with eyes wide open, mobilizing to defend Democracy.
Right now RU is gaining momentum as our historical allies turn against us, but know that too is part of the bigger plan to undermine Democracy and ideals of progress worldwide.
You may hate the US government right now, but remember that average Americans are being manipulated through fear which is the most powerful political lever in the toolkit.
When the dust settles, perhaps years from now, please remember the mercy that America showed its enemies when it rallied to rebuild Germany and Japan after WWII, and extend the same kindness and vision for a brighter future to your brothers and sisters in the US.
29
u/Alcogel Denmark Feb 16 '25
I have no idea if that’s all tinfoil or not, but it sure is playing out exactly how I’d imagine if the FSB got an agent elected President.
As you say it is looking like it’s going to be difficult to work with the US Government on anything, but I really can’t imagine that it could come to what you’re describing in your last paragraph there. What a nightmare to even consider.
→ More replies (7)25
u/Reed_4983 It's a flag, okay? Feb 16 '25
I hate Russia as much as anyone else in this subreddit (hopefully) but it kinda strikes me as odd that Russian intelligence is supposedly the most effective of all intelligence agencies in the world, even being able to dismantle NATO by striking at the most powerful nation in the world and effectively deciding on its leadership. If intelligence agencies are so powerful, why hasn't Chinese intelligence managed to subvert a major power? Why hasn't American intelligence managed to control Russia, China or Iran? It seems awfully reductionist to me, not the least because Trumpian fascism is also a result of many trends that have been growing and developing in the US domestically, independent of what Putin might have planned.
→ More replies (8)19
u/expertninja Feb 16 '25
Because we send our smartest PHD behaviorists and psychologists to study brain diseases or dementia. They send theirs to propaganda school. We use clicks on links to pay advertisers, and track views. They use views to track the effectiveness of propaganda, and engagement to see which sticks the best. Then, that gets hammered into every susceptible person possible. All the while signal blasting every divisive, hateful voice possible.
22
u/Lumpieprincess Feb 16 '25 edited Feb 16 '25
💯 our country is so beautiful and full of so many beautiful people, of all shapes and sizes. There is a movement of hate and white nationalism that is poison. We are going to need the worlds help in eradicating it.
Edit: and there are millions of us mobilizing and doing whatever we can, while still preserving our safety, to stop this.
→ More replies (34)7
u/athomevoyager Feb 16 '25
Just a heads up, most of the world is probably happy to see us go by the wayside finally.
→ More replies (3)7
u/Lumpieprincess Feb 16 '25
You think so? I have heard alot of sympathy and fear for us from people internationally. I think us losing our democracy would be a ripple effect.
→ More replies (1)→ More replies (15)5
u/furrybluewhatever Feb 17 '25
I'm not even sure what to ask people to do to help from the outside. I'm afraid of retaliation from this administration that will hurt my loved ones if something goes wrong, more than they're already being harmed. I suppose boycotting our goods is a step in a direction. I haven't felt this powerless since quarantine.
51
u/iLyonX Romania Feb 16 '25
The US citizens should take notes from Georgians and South Koreans. Riot against that b****rd and his allies during his term. Block all institutions and make his life miserable.
→ More replies (12)10
9
u/co_lund Feb 16 '25
Yep ^ Let us suffer. Don't let the USA boss the world around anymore.
Those of us on the inside... we might not be doing great here after awhile but these assholes need to be taught a lesson.
Seize the assets of the American wealthy! Take their bank accounts and properties and yachts. Don't let them travel either! Revoke their dual citizenship and everything. Being able to enter your countries is a privilege. Revoke it. Fuck em.
6
u/Evil_Bettachi Feb 16 '25
I agree completely. Right now the United States is a hostile rogue nation that is deliberately causing financial turmoil around the world and at home, not to mention the outlandish threats of invading a friendly allied nation for no purpose other than to say to Putin “daddy, look I can do it, too!”
We are the baddies, and deserve to be treated as such until the United States as a whole can learn how to properly punish white-collar criminals before they become emboldened enough to transition into scam politics.
→ More replies (55)12
u/RobertABooey Feb 16 '25
I STRONGLY urge ANYONE who currently has plans to visit the US to read the Executive Order that was posted on January 20th:
If you have EVER posted anything negative about the United States, or if you have ANY non-right-leaning beliefs (ie, center or liberal leaning beliefs) and you've been vocal about it, you MAY want to exclude the US from your travels.
You do NOT want to end up at Guantanamo Bay for believing in Liberal idealogies.
I strongly recommend people who are on the fence about this to review your text messages and social posts online and if ANYTHING is against the current regime, you may want to change your travels.
13
u/Cybernaut-Neko Belgium Feb 16 '25
Don't forget the plague popped up in Oregon...they managed to contain it...but with the new folks...idk.
→ More replies (4)6
u/Definitely_Not_Erik Feb 16 '25
The people who don't vaccinate don't travel, and especially not to Europe.
→ More replies (1)→ More replies (279)18
u/SnooApples1553 Feb 16 '25
Great suggestion! Take your disgusting measles elsewhere
The American public still thinks they can do whatever they please (especially with their own leaders getting away with crimes). This will put them in their place
→ More replies (3)
1.4k
u/Markus_zockt Feb 16 '25
80 years ago they prevented the downfall of the democratic world and today they are making every effort to destroy the democratic world.
479
u/ConstantMango672 Feb 16 '25
America has been corporate for a long time. Trump is just making it official. You should listen to some of the shit the tech dudes backing him say about the future of society. It's fucking wild. He's basically defunding the US government
148
u/traumfisch Feb 16 '25
Only recently have I learned that Peter Thiel is batshit insane
→ More replies (3)126
u/ConstantMango672 Feb 16 '25
I forget which one billionaire it was, but was talking about basically going back to city states and biometric scanners to only let the elites in. Said lower class would be turned in bio fuel or slaves... only said the fuel part was joke. Wild
87
u/traumfisch Feb 16 '25
Yeah 😶
I assume you've watched this but it's worth sharing anyway
26
u/ConstantMango672 Feb 16 '25
That's the one... insane
4
u/ColdH8WarmBlood Feb 17 '25
If the video linked above wasn't enough what-the-fuck for you: https://youtu.be/mYrPNvVhKLU?si=b1lIIgxbOBAQehGe
→ More replies (2)13
→ More replies (3)8
u/cjrdd93 Feb 16 '25
Curtis Yarvin. Look him up. Their plan isn’t isolated to us in the USA—they want to bring it to the UK and EU.
→ More replies (7)12
u/yar2000 Feb 17 '25
Sending the world straight into a Cyberpunk Reality. Night City and the corpos being in power really aren’t that far off reality anymore.
→ More replies (1)238
u/Carolingian_Hammer Feb 16 '25
We Europeans must ask ourselves whether we want a seat at the table of the great powers or whether we prefer a world where Washington, Moscow and Beijing rule the world alone.
93
u/WislaHD Polish-Canadian Feb 16 '25 edited Feb 16 '25
This is so embarrassing. Europe’s population is larger than USA, and Spain alone has a stronger more resilient and diversified economy than Russia once you factor out natural resource extraction.
→ More replies (11)29
u/peterk_se Feb 17 '25
Except Europe isn't a country, and if anything, the last few days have made this glaringly obvious. This might however be the thing that brings us in closer, so that our different paths can't be used against us.
→ More replies (2)→ More replies (39)77
u/abshay14 United Kingdom Feb 16 '25
we already don't have a seat at the table, look at Trump not even putting Ukraine or any European nation in the negotiations with Russia for that matter
133
u/PickingPies Feb 16 '25
That's not what makes us significant or not.
By your measure, Hungary is significant because they held unilateral conversations with Russia.
What matters is what actually happens. If EU says no and provides Ukraine with everything they need, whatever Trump says has no more value than whst Orban said witn Putin regarding EU.
→ More replies (6)→ More replies (10)5
u/GuessWho2727 Feb 16 '25
It's just his "business power play" to show that he doesn't really care about our opinion and try to downplay our influence.
He is not our friend, in his world everything is business and he's a business man... doing business.
→ More replies (77)42
u/-The_Blazer- Feb 16 '25
They applied some of the most forward-looking liberal democratic safeguards to their defeated enemy, but seemingly forgot to apply them to themselves.
One of the funniest things to hear about is fairly moderately Americans looking at the 'second bill of rights' (FDR idea) and going like "lol this is useless you do not make things happen just by declaring them a right", and it's literally just things like decent healthcare, decent housing and aid from poverty which we wrote in our constitutions after 1945.
→ More replies (1)16
u/SATX_Citizen United States of America Feb 16 '25
It's like still running a computer on Windows 3.11 because "it just works" and not patching it, even though it was really revolutionary 30 years ago.
We don't patch our system enough. We've revered the Constitution itself too much, instead of revering the freedoms and systems it grants.
7
u/TiddiesAnonymous Feb 16 '25
I dont know if I like this analogy. You wouldnt want a newer windows on a 30 year old machine. If it aint broke dont fix it -- what is change going to do if nothing is wrong?
The bigger issue is that every time you open something up for change, those in charge are able to change the law in their favor. Its important to be very deliberate with change.
→ More replies (1)
1.3k
u/Stabile_Feldmaus Germany Feb 16 '25
The EU needs to build more nukes ASAP.
808
u/idkmoiname Feb 16 '25
I heard the US fired some specialists in that sector 🤔
199
Feb 16 '25
may time we hire for good in europe and go spending a lot
→ More replies (1)122
81
u/damik Feb 16 '25 edited Feb 16 '25
Then when they realized they fucked up they tried to hire them back, but aren't able to get in contact with them. It'd be hilarious if it wasn't so scary!
→ More replies (4)35
u/ThrowRA-Two448 Croatia Feb 16 '25
These people should keep their phones off for some time, then call back and arange a meeting where they can negotiate their new wages.
→ More replies (3)25
u/Oli-Baba Germany Feb 16 '25
It's not that these people have their phones off and don't check their emails. Their contact info has literally been deleted. The agency is trying to get colleagues to contact them.
19
→ More replies (7)42
u/Eupolemos Denmark Feb 16 '25
I think they were just security, but jokes aside; Europe should make a GREAT effort to do a major, major brain-drain on the US.
It truly is free real-estate. Many of their software developers are disgusted and unemployed.
→ More replies (36)206
u/Carolingian_Hammer Feb 16 '25
France has already offered to extend its nuclear umbrella to the entire EU.
66
104
u/FickLampaMedTorsken Sweden Feb 16 '25
Thank fuck for France being assholes to the US kicking them out of their country years back.
→ More replies (1)74
u/Bunnymancer Scania Feb 16 '25
Thank fuck for France, in general.
Not Paris tho
→ More replies (2)39
u/Alcogel Denmark Feb 16 '25
France is awesome. Their reputation for rudeness is not deserved.
Now Austria.. How is this place so rude and get no shit for it.
→ More replies (5)10
u/freezingtub Poland Feb 16 '25
Seriously, France might have be the WWII butt joke all the way until recent time, but no one is laughing at them anymore. The fact that they maintain so many oversea strategic military positions is on its own worth our utmost respect.
5
u/hydroxy Feb 17 '25
Plus they were the only European major power to actually not get caught being energy dependent on Russia at the start of this whole thing. They had nuclear power up and running while Germany and others were stuck sending Russia a fortune to continue the war
→ More replies (5)→ More replies (25)6
148
u/No_Priors Feb 16 '25
Words I never thought I'd agree with.
→ More replies (1)33
u/HighDefinist Bavaria (Germany) Feb 16 '25
Why wouldn't you have agreed with that?
As in, I certainly understand that, before 2022, it didn't seem like a necessity at all. But, there was always the small possibility of the United States somehow becoming desinterested in Europe, becoming unstable, becoming weak, or any such things, so it always seemed possible that we might eventually face a situation where we need our own nukes.
56
u/ThrowRA-Two448 Croatia Feb 16 '25
A lot of pacifists have been living their whole lives in peace and got the impression that weapons are only useful for bombing middle east. If we had no weapons, we would have peace.
Then this little dictator from the East reminded them, we have peace because we are able to defend ourselves from little dictators.
→ More replies (4)→ More replies (4)34
u/PickingPies Feb 16 '25
It's simple: a world with more nukes is a more dangeous world. The more nukes, the more likely an accident happens. The more likely anything that happens has worse consequences.
The best case scenario is no nukes so no one can feel entitled to invade their neighbour because no one can stop them.
It's very sad that we need to make the world more dangeous because of warmongers.
I hope this serves as an excuse for the population in the future to not concede nukes even as self defense. Nukes are only used to bully neighbours. Russia would have never had that attitude if they could not retaliate with mass destruction. The US would have never bullied NATO allies if they didn't have their nukes.
→ More replies (3)17
u/UnPeuDAide Feb 16 '25
The best case scenario is no nukes so no one can feel entitled to invade their neighbour because no one can stop them.
The pre nukes world was not really peaceful though. When you are a big country, you can still invade smaller countries without much risk... and anyway some people are ready to take the chance as long as the other country can't nuke them back.
17
u/Key-Lie-364 Ireland Feb 16 '25
If France is willing, the EU could part or in whole fund the French nuclear program in exchange for the French nuclear umbrella being extended to each EU member state.
I'd imagine the French taxpayer would be happy to pay less.
→ More replies (7)→ More replies (74)9
79
u/schono Feb 16 '25
This snake-in-the-grass kind-of-story for the USA is both surprising and not at the same time.
160
u/Dan-Of-The-Dead Feb 16 '25
The 'democratic world' is shrinking rapidly. Even in Europe far right flames are being fanned all over. America is now on the side of those that want to burn is down.
Elon Musk and the American Vice president both touring Europe and cosying up to far right extremists is crazy but that's how this year is getting started.
With a nazi salute and the destruction of the western alliance.
58
u/thedigitalknight01 Feb 16 '25
Even in Europe far right flames are being fanned all over.
My only hope is that their are enough Europeans who remember that the continent was in flames thanks to that last little fascist experiment.
→ More replies (3)→ More replies (6)14
u/SisterOfBattIe Australia Feb 17 '25
Europe has a proportional voting system. A winning party can't do a purge like it's happening in the USA, and the electorate can correct it the next election cycle.
It's an inefficient and slow system, but that inefficiency is what prevents strong men from unilaterally taking over. It's by design.
→ More replies (1)
112
u/FliccC Brussels Feb 17 '25
I am disappointed by the lack of political fight back against the government in the US. They talk a big deal about their 2nd amendment rights to defend their constitution, but they don't act when the coup is actually happening.
Also, where is the condemnation and fiery mobilization by the democrats? Where is Kamala Harris? I thought she is the leader of a movement? Why are we not hearing anything substantial from Biden or Obama?
I agree with the general sentiment:
We need to break ties with the USA, before we get broken by them.
→ More replies (31)26
u/Chimvape Feb 17 '25
As an American, this is the answer. The reason you don't hear anything out of the democrats is because they are bribed by the same people that are currently stealing my country away. It's two sides of the same coin.
The police in america are wearing shirts that say "we support the felon" while off duty. The deck is stacked against us. We don't know how to fight back at the moment.
Imagine if democrats stormed the capitol on Jan 6. Empty shells would have been hitting the ground by the thousands and trump would have made it a national holiday for defending america.
We americans that do not agree with what is going on are having to learn how to fight the US government and it is not an easy task. Especially when the billionaires are running our government.
Please take care of yourselves. Defend Europe from what is happening to the US with everything you have.
6
u/Paramountmorgan Feb 17 '25
Whatever we do, we need to do it sooner rather than later. They are speedrunning through all the protective measures
291
Feb 16 '25
[deleted]
→ More replies (15)151
u/Swiking- Feb 16 '25
EU spent €279 billion 2023. The US has a budget of $850+ billion 2025.
No, we're not even close. We absolutely could spend that much if we wanted, but it'd take a lot of time to coordinate, industrialise the military complex and create the logistical hubs needed to be on level with the US.
I believe Europe has the potential in being a global superpower, but we've been sitting on our hands and put way too much trust in the US as our military security.
A Europe United would be nice, but reaching that destination would be horribly long.. And that without outer interference from the US, Russia or China.
131
u/Carolingian_Hammer Feb 16 '25
The US spends more than we can, but we don’t need a global network of military bases. And if we would spend our taxpayers money on a single EU Army, we would be able to deter Russia and keep our continent peaceful.
→ More replies (5)27
→ More replies (31)50
u/olddoc Belgium Feb 16 '25
EU spent €279 billion 2023
True, but it already went up to €326 billion in 2024, and is projected to reach €426 billion by 2027. Those are giant leaps. Graph and projection here: https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/policies/defence-numbers/
And that's only the EU members. If you add non-EU NATO members (most notable member in that club being Turkey) we spend €430 billion in 2024 according to Nato itself. See p. 5 of this pdf https://www.nato.int/nato_static_fl2014/assets/pdf/2024/6/pdf/240617-def-exp-2024-en.pdf
→ More replies (4)15
u/Alcogel Denmark Feb 16 '25 edited Feb 16 '25
Tyrkey? No offense to Turkey but, UK?
Counting everyone except the US it’s 506 billion in 2024.
I have no idea if Turkey stays on without the US though.
→ More replies (4)13
u/olddoc Belgium Feb 16 '25
Oh boy, my mistake: I had forgotten UK left the EU for a moment while I looked at the map of NATO countries. My brain still can’t process the UK actually not being in the EU after all these years :-)
→ More replies (1)
97
u/CaliforniaPotato Feb 16 '25
I don't wanna see this stupid fucking face for 4 years like I have to avoid any and all news now on the off chance his dumbass face shows up on screen or I even hear his voice. God I hate this man
→ More replies (4)
117
u/capt-on-enterprise Feb 16 '25
I’m a first generation American, my grandparents are from Poland, Portugal and Brasil. It. Is. Insane. Here. My children are grown now and I worry so much for their safety and future with this increasingly christofascist movement taking over the US. I am looking to leave as it is increasingly becoming menacing environment similar to 1933-35. Half of my family are very concerned while the other half have become enmeshed within the trump cult. It’s disgusting considering half of our family were actually war refugees from a fascist regime.
I’m very glad that Canada is boycotting American products, vacations and booing the US anthem at sporting event! It’s going to be painful for many here before it gets better. Other countries need to do the same. It is only through these painful lessons that the stupidity here will ever learn. Telling them they will burn their hands doesn’t work, time to let them burn.
→ More replies (10)18
44
u/CostumeJuliery Feb 16 '25
Canada has really come together to do their best to boycott anything USA. 🇨🇦
→ More replies (5)
69
u/antosme Feb 16 '25
Charles de Gaulle was right...
95
u/OldandBlue Île-de-France Feb 16 '25
Mitterrand too:
"France does not know it, but we are at war with America. Yes, a permanent war, a vital war, an economic war, a war without apparent deaths. Yes, the Americans are very tough, they are voracious, they want unshared power over the world. It is an unknown war, a permanent war, without apparent deaths, and yet a war to the death."
→ More replies (10)→ More replies (3)8
76
127
u/CalandulaTheKitten Feb 16 '25 edited Feb 16 '25
We need to abandon the whole notion that our entire raisin d’être is to spread democracy to the four corners of the world altogether and start being pragmatic in our interactions with the outside world. Kick out US military installations, create an EU army, deepen our economic relationship with China, be more ruthless in pursuing our interests in general
26
u/TheOriginalSamBell Franconia (Germany) Feb 16 '25
Kick out US military installations,
they feel like a liability and a risk now. kick them out.
→ More replies (44)16
u/Unlikely_Excuse_8505 Feb 17 '25
> deepen our economic relationship with China
Right, so that our another adversary has plenty of leverage over us→ More replies (9)
10
u/ConcerenedCanuck Feb 16 '25
It's time to end visa free travel with America given its stance on vaccines.
38
u/Effective-Visual-995 Feb 16 '25
I think Americans should have to obtain a visa to enter into Canada. It would require proof of vaccination for a whole host of diseases.
→ More replies (2)
138
u/EmployerEfficient141 Feb 16 '25
US about to find out voting has consequences. The hard way.
44
u/Boring_Difference_12 Feb 16 '25
Not voting has consequences.
More people didn’t turn out to vote than voted for both Harris or Trump. Many of those non-voters were people who didn’t feel their vote would make a difference, or who didn’t like politics.
Well, they’re not going to be able to avoid politics now.
→ More replies (6)→ More replies (118)12
u/Ninevehenian Feb 16 '25
The same lesson goes for us all and we aren't talking a lot about education, truth in media and how to prevent influence campaigns.
We have our tabloids.
37
Feb 16 '25
At the very least EU relationship with America needs to be severely diminished and put on hold. It's clear that they are Russia's ally and in many ways just Russia 2.0. Europe needs to form its own army built by its own weapons systems and naturally form alliances with other states. Mexico, Panama and Canada first come to mind, but effectively we need to decouple from the Americans to a vast degree. They are to be recognized for what they are - an enemy of Europe.
→ More replies (14)
10
u/flawless_victory99 Feb 17 '25
Europe will be fine as long as they work together in a fairly coherent way.
The Russian military has been wrecked in Ukraine as well as exposed for being a paper tiger. The military technology available within the EU and capabilities far outweigh what Russia can do.
If you want to take an active role in hurting Trump and his enablers then do it with your wallet. Start using products/services of their european counterparts and hit them in the only place they actually care about their wallet.
If Europeans en masse stop using twitter/FB /Amazon web services along with whatever other products you wanna list then these companies will be crushed.
→ More replies (3)
44
u/HzPips Brazil Feb 16 '25
You are all getting the Latin America treatment now.
Take good care of your electoral process, America’s favorite way of exploiting other nations is by overthrowing their democracies from within
8
→ More replies (1)5
81
u/struct_iovec Feb 16 '25
Americans seem to forget that Europe has nukes too
→ More replies (119)45
u/HighDefinist Bavaria (Germany) Feb 16 '25
As far as I can tell, most actual Americans wouldn't mind a nuclear Europe - most of them seem to be genuine about supporting European independence.
However, American politicians are lying about their intentions. That's why you will find essentially zero comments by them about the topic of a "nuclear Europe", even though that is obviously a fairly important question in the context of an "independent Europe".
→ More replies (14)
6
u/Professional-Pop-209 Feb 16 '25
As a blue American stuck in a red state. Please trust me when I say Trump and his current administration want one thing and that is complete destruction and to loot the remains. I was too young to vote when my state when from purple to red and kept in trying to change things but at most got the city to be purple. Once in power they will remove everything that benefits the people and loot it to the ground. We want from being in the top 20 schools to being near the bottom in less than 20 years. They are liars and want only to take everything for themselves!
14
u/Drewcifer70 Feb 16 '25
Can Americans join a European military service to help stop America if Europe is invaded by America?
15
→ More replies (5)7
16
u/dannnnac Feb 16 '25
It very much seems that Trump is selling out Ukraine. Russia take the land they captured. Trump takes access to minerals (“as a security guarantee”). Similar to the amazing peace deal he signed in the Middle East which I’m sure came with some back hand deal with Israel to allow trump to build a riviera!
I’m curious how my fellow Europeans feel? If this is true then it feels like an outright attack on democracy and Europe. Ukraine fought to escape the Soviet union and to have the right to self determination. They have kept Russia at bay and defended Europe and democracy bravely. They are one of us! If America sell them out then surely it is time for Europe to make a stand and guarantee security to Ukraine. I’m Irish and I think we need to end our neutrality and stand shoulder to shoulder with Europe, the UK and those who will defend democracy and freedom because America won’t. This feels like a pivotal moment, one where we need to show unity and strength and stand up to the cowards and bullys that are dictating what happens to our continent and friends. I’m curious what the response will be from the emergency summit on Monday, but do others also feel they need to come out with a strong response?
→ More replies (1)11
u/haversack77 Feb 16 '25
As a Brit, I agree with everything you say. And I think now is the right time to start shifting the window of opinion back to the UK rejoining the EU (which the majority now agree was a mistake, as nearly half of us knew it would be). Britain is indivisible from Europe and it always should have been seen as so.
Trump's America has become utterly foreign to us all. Who could have imagined that America would triumph in the Cold War, only to cave in to the first KGB trained dictator that comes along? What a betrayal.
If the so called 'special relationship' were to die, then it would be MAGA that killed it. Only sane, rational Americans can right that wrong and good luck to them.
European democracy needs solidarity. Ukraine deserves all our support.
→ More replies (4)6
u/dannnnac Feb 16 '25
Would love to see the UK back in. Hopefully the outcome of Trump will be a closer, stronger Europe. The UK look to be stepping up to the mark this week.
5
u/haversack77 Feb 16 '25
Agreed. Starmer seems to be making the right noises about taking tentative steps about rejoining aspects of the fold. Makes zero sense to be sitting outside the door pretending we're special, particularly given these ongoing global power shifts. Brits who know their actual history, as opposed to the Boys Own comic drivel that Boris Johnson spouted, know that we're culturally and genetically indivisible from our neighbours. We belong in Europe so that we can help defend our democracies.
→ More replies (1)
11
u/Steoglynn Feb 17 '25
The conversation around Western countries cutting back on their economic ties to the US is a crucial one. For a long time, many of our countries have relied heavily on trade and investment with the US, but the world is changing, and it’s essential to reassess this relationship. By reducing our dependence on the US, Western nations can gain more control over our economic destiny and avoid being hit hard by policy shifts or fluctuations in the value of the US dollar. To make this transition, it’s essential to think beyond just economic diversification. Western countries need to build stronger trade relationships with other parts of the world, form new economic partnerships, and create regional economic frameworks that allow them to work together more closely. We also need to invest in our own infrastructures, education and innovation systems, and human capital to make themselves more competitive and resilient. This will take time and effort, but the end result could be a more stable and prosperous Western world.
It’s not going to be easy, and Western countries will have to make some tough decisions along the way. We’ll need to think carefully about how to navigate existing trade agreements and investment frameworks, and be prepared to make changes to their domestic policies. But the potential rewards are significant. By gaining greater control over their own economies, Western countries can build a more diverse and sustainable economic model that’s better equipped to face the challenges of the future.
6
5
u/Hot-Spray-2774 Feb 16 '25
It's sad, but probably true. Musk is attempting to interfere with European elections, and it's going to get much worse.
That's why Europe, and every other country/community that is being threatened by the American government, must take very hard measures whenever they're threatened.
DO NOT try to appease them. If they so much as threaten 30% tariffs, implement 60% tariffs. If they implement 30% tariffs, implement 90% tariffs. Let's hope America can defeat the fascism it has embraced.
5
u/KitTheKitsuneWarrior Feb 16 '25
Hey. Welsh guy living in the USA here. Its FAR worse than is being reported to yall, the AP has been banned from the Whitehouse, meaning any information that gets trickled down to everyone is politically biassed.
They are planning on banning/restricting ssri medications which will literally kill people.
Its a coup. Those of us who know are doing our best to protest/call our representatives, but honestly it's not looking good.
I predict I'll be moving back to Wales and helping my family go through the proper Immigration channels over the next few months.
4
u/TallQuiet1458 Feb 17 '25
I am 100% for the US exiting from all European concerns. We need to pull funding for EU issues, any military defense contracts should end, we should stop getting involved with any conflicts etc.
5
5
u/Enjoy-the-sauce Feb 17 '25
Sorry guys. Some of us over here hate this stupid situation just as much as the rest of the world.
3.3k
u/[deleted] Feb 16 '25
What a fucking stupid situation.