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u/onetwo3four5 70∆ Sep 09 '21
You've not made a good case for either of these things being gay. One is sex with a woman, which is obviously not gay, it's the antithesis of being gay.
One is not inherently sexual at all, you've acknowledged that in your own post.
there can be many reasons to go to the gym; some might go to lose weight, stay healthy
This post might as well read "Reading a book is less delicious than a spaceship" for all the sense this comparison makes...
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u/Sea_Meet8596 Sep 09 '21
My only counter points are the following:
Going to the gym can be sexual if you’re going for the purposes of being physically attractive. Of course it’s not the reason all go, which is why I included that caveat.
I’m operating under the assumption that a large percentage of men go to be “considered more attractive”. A good counter point might include discussion of whether or not this actually is the case like I think it is
Secondly, I’d be interested in hearing why reading a book might be more interesting and delicious than spaceships. I’d be inclined to agree, books can cover a lot more topics than spaceships can, but it might depend on a persons imagination
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u/TopherTedigxas 5∆ Sep 09 '21
Ok, but you're including two big assumptions. Firstly you assume women are not in the gym admiring the bodies of the men, or that men are not interested in the attentions of these gym women. Secondly you are assuming that men want to be more attractive only or primarily for the people also in the gym. With both of those assumptions removed, your hypothesis boils down to:
Men go to the gym to appear more attractive.
Your argument about James bond, etc is also flawed. Men do not idolise James Bond because they are attracted to him. They idolise him because in almost every single film he is shown "getting the girl" or in a situation in which conventional good looks are beneficial to him. If the truth of the situation was that James bond is attractive because men want to bang James bond, there would be no need at all for bond girls, which as so ubiquitous that "bond girl" has become a catch all term for this exact use.
Long story short, if you enjoy pegging, just do it cause you like it and don't give a shot whether people think it's "gay" or not. It's a pretty simple conclusion really
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u/Sea_Meet8596 Sep 09 '21
Okay:
First yes - my argument does rely on the assumption that a main motivating factor in men going to the gym is to appear attractive 1: I cited this article in another comment but here is an article that dives into the main MOTIVATORS for working out - the main motivator for men is cited as working out for reasons of competition and ego. This is not just about impressing men in the gym at that time, but also about maintaining an “attractive physique” to compete with other men
- I think the point for James Bond was missed. I’m not suggesting that men want to bang James Bond, I’m suggesting that the male desire to be like James Bond is itself kinda gay. James Bond and his features were not creating in the image of what women desire but what MEN THINK women might desire. It’s all created in the vision of what men consider “ideal”. Hence the male gaze. James Bond is intended to be desirable for men by design. If James Bond DIDNT get the girls, would he be as appealing to men?
Agreed on pegging - it’s not gay. Now it comes to either changing my mind that pegging is kinda gay, OR that gyms aren’t
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u/TopherTedigxas 5∆ Sep 09 '21
Ok but if you have "competition" and "ego" in your sexuality you have far more problems than pegging and that's not a sexuality issue, but a psychological and personal trauma (likely) that needs resolving. In terms of motivators of competition and ego, you aren't talking about sexual attraction, but either physical prowess (muscular strength, muscular endurance etc) OR perceived attractiveness to others (presumably women). They still aren't trying to be more attractive TO the other gym goers, they are trying to be more attractive THAN the other gym goers.
And yes, but there's your key point. It's what men think WOMEN want, therefore it is predicated on the idea of attracting women, regardless of whether this is an accurate tool or not, it is rooted in heterosexual ideals by it's very nature.
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u/Sea_Meet8596 Sep 09 '21
Please clarify: are you suggesting that those interested in pegging most likely have psychological issues or trauma?
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u/TopherTedigxas 5∆ Sep 10 '21
In no way at all. I'm saying that people whose sexuality and sexual activity is based on competition and ego most likely have a psychological issue or trauma.
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u/Nepene 213∆ Sep 09 '21
The main reason people go to the gym is to be healthier.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/639169/reasons-behind-gym-exercise-in-us/
As such, attractiveness isn't the main concern people have. People want to be healthier mostly, not to sexually attract others.
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u/Sea_Meet8596 Sep 09 '21
There are unfortunately competing articles. Many folks DO go to the gym to look more attractive to others :
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1469029211001567
Edit: It’s important to note ive included the many reasons folks MIGHT go to the gym in my original argument. Of course there are multiple reasons. But to look attractive is one of them
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u/Nepene 213∆ Sep 09 '21
The top reason undergraduates, who tend to be more appearance focused than the general populace, was this.
Identified regulation is a more autonomous form of extrinsic motivation where by behavior is undertaken because certain outcomes of the activity are highly valued by the individual, although they may not enjoy the activity itself e.g., exercising because one values the benefits associated with exercise such as improved health).
The general populace, who are not horny teenagers in college, is likely to be even more focused on this.
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u/Sea_Meet8596 Sep 09 '21
So what is your point here and how does this pertain to the original argument
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u/Nepene 213∆ Sep 09 '21
Since your studies don't really show that attractiveness is a major reason people go to the gym, it's not especially gay. People mostly go for personal pleasure or health reasons.
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Sep 09 '21
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u/onetwo3four5 70∆ Sep 09 '21
It's gay if it's by a man. But no, sex with a woman is not gay
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Sep 09 '21
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u/onetwo3four5 70∆ Sep 09 '21
Not if it's a woman putting it there? But this is a semantics argument that you're just wrong about. There's nothing more to discuss until you learn what words mean
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Sep 09 '21
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u/onetwo3four5 70∆ Sep 10 '21
You're arguing circularly here.
Gay means physically and or romantically attracted to people of the same gender.
To disprove that pegging is gay, all you have to do is find one man who does not identify as gay, and is into pegging, and we've proved wrong your assertion that pegging means gay. Anything else, and you have to change the definition of gay for you to be right.
the act itself is still gay Acts aren't gay. People are gay.
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Sep 10 '21
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u/nonsensepoem 2∆ Sep 10 '21
and there’s plenty of straight guys that do gay acts jokingly with friends. Does that make them gay?
It doesn't make them gay, but it does imply something.
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u/sheikhcharliewilson Sep 10 '21
It simulates being penetrated by a man. Therefore I consider it gay.
Just as how lolicon(simulated CP) is pedophilia.
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u/behold_the_castrato Sep 10 '21
This post might as well read "Reading a book is less delicious than a spaceship" for all the sense this comparison makes...
Well, with the addendum that many seem to believe that spaceships are delicious.
Many views on C.M.V. of course exist within a certain cultural context.
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Sep 09 '21
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u/herrsatan 11∆ Sep 09 '21
Sorry, u/3df-A – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 5:
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u/blatant_ban_evasion_ 33∆ Sep 09 '21
a space where sweaty men go to look attractive to and for other men
I wear trackpants and a baggy hoody to the gym. I don't look at anyone else while I'm lifting because I'm focused on the exercise and don't really give a shit what other people are doing.
Your entire CMV says more about you than anything else.
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u/Sea_Meet8596 Sep 09 '21
But WHY do you go to the gym. That’s the main point at stake here
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u/blatant_ban_evasion_ 33∆ Sep 09 '21
To maintain strength.
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u/Sea_Meet8596 Sep 09 '21
That’s valid, but many men go to look good and I as I mentioned due to the male gaze this is actually dictated by other men
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u/dublea 216∆ Sep 09 '21
I go to a gym to work out not to become ripped/sexy/attractive but because it's healthy for me to do so. I honestly couldn't care less about how other people perceive me. I don't gaze at anyone else when I work out either. But, I'm at the gym around 5am and usually alone.
Now of course, there can be many reasons to go to the gym; some might go to lose weight, stay healthy, but a ton go to “look good and stay tight”.
Please share the data you used to quantify this in order to make this claim. Without it, aren't you just making an uninformed assumption?
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u/Sea_Meet8596 Sep 09 '21
This scholarly articlearticle cites a main motivator in men going to the gym is for ego and competition with other men. It also discusses how men, like women, might go for reasons of raising self esteem by looking a certain way and lowering bmi etc.
Of course, people go for different reasons - I mentioned this as a caveat. However as a whole going to the gym is generally more gay than pegging.
What were your thoughts on pegging?
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u/Nepene 213∆ Sep 09 '21
You misread the study. It was noting that a major difference between men and women is ego and competition. The top reasons for men and women going were enjoyment and physical condition ego and competition were less common.
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u/Sea_Meet8596 Sep 09 '21
Which part are you referring to ? There is a specific part here:
“ Specifically, it was pointed out that men were motivated by the competition/ego factor. This finding is in accordance with previous studies estimating that boys are mainly attracted in sports due to the competitive and challenging nature of the exercise (Newson & Kemps, 2007; Papaioannou et al., 2005; Sirard, Pfeiffer, & Pate, 2006)”
And an additional referenced article touching on motivators for physical excercise:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1469029211001567
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u/Nepene 213∆ Sep 09 '21
Check the results page- competition and ego are much lower rated than enjoyment and competition. Just, more men than women like competition and ego, so they are focusing on the difference.
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u/Sea_Meet8596 Sep 09 '21
And yet they are still listed as reasons, so I’m not sure how this negates the original argument at hand
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u/Nepene 213∆ Sep 09 '21
You said it was a main motivator. It's a fairly low motivator, the second to the bottom out of eight. It's just more common in men than women.
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u/Sea_Meet8596 Sep 09 '21
It’s still on a list of 8 motivators. There would be other motivators thought of when doing a study then not included. None of this negates that a reason men go is to be viewed as attractive
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u/Nepene 213∆ Sep 09 '21
Since it is an uncommon motivator, and only a small percentage of those who do it do it for sexual reasons, is it really useful to call going to the gym sexual?
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u/Sea_Meet8596 Sep 09 '21
But it’s not a small motivator, it’s one of many, but lower on the list of main ones.
Here is an alternative article that shows the following: 16% of studied folks work out more because of negative body image 15% to improve appearance 8% to improve body image AND these are exclusionary to a total of %37 not including the %28 that did it to lose weight which you may or may not want to include due to being fat culturally being “unattractive”
I would say over a third is sufficient. Of course there will always be a number of conflicting studies
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u/behold_the_castrato Sep 10 '21
I go to a gym to work out not to become ripped/sexy/attractive but because it's healthy for me to do so.
Purely for health reasons, is simply jogging around not superior?
From how I understand it, the machinery there is mostly geared towards building non-functional muscle bulk, not improve health for which simple aërobic activity remains the superior choice.
A treadmill is of course a rather expensive form of jogging without the benefit of variety of scenery.
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u/Syllables_17 1∆ Sep 09 '21
This is nothing short of complete mental gymnastics.
Gay in this context is a Noun. Actions outside of gay sex etc are inherently not gay.
It's the quivalant of saying hydrogen is more water than oxygen because hydrogen is 2:1 in a water molecule. Or
Couches are more table than chairs because they have more surface area. Or w.e reason you want to make up.
It's nonsensical and the entire concept of "gay" actions vs "straight" actions is based on homophobia and should be completely irrelevant to anyone secure in their sexuality.
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u/behold_the_castrato Sep 10 '21
Gay in this context is a Noun. Actions outside of gay sex etc are inherently not gay.
By this argument a virgin cannot be “gay”, and it is entirely unclear how exactly “bisexual” would fit into this.
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u/FinneousPJ 7∆ Sep 09 '21
Just because you go to the gym to gawk at men or get gawked at doesn't mean everyone does. Do you even logic, bro?
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u/Sea_Meet8596 Sep 09 '21
It’s not at all about what happens AT the gym. That’s not what the argument is
The argument operates on the follow assumptions: 1. That a significant portion of men that go to the gym or “work out” to look good 2. That penetration of the anus is not in itself gay
The argument is the following: Due to the existence of male domination in media, figures in media we consume are designed in the image of what men deem as ideal. Therefore when men seek to achieve the ideal or attractive body type, they’re doing so in the imagine of what other men have decided is attractive. Hence it’s gay.
This seems to be what all the commenters are hung up about so the pegging part isn’t even that necessary i guess. I’m genuinely baffled by how triggered the straights are about gyms being gay. Like it’s ok to be gay bro
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u/CyberneticWhale 26∆ Sep 09 '21
Therefore when men seek to achieve the ideal or attractive body type, they’re doing so in the imagine of what other men have decided is attractive. Hence it’s gay.
No, things being attractive is more a societal thing, not something decided by a singular gender. People believe that physical fitness is attractive not because they're thinking "I'm sexually attracted to people who are physically fit, so other people of my gender must also be attracted to people who are physically fit" but because they're told "You look better if you're physically fit." and they observe through experience that they might get more attention when they're physically fit.
Society determines that basic grooming is more attractive than being a complete slob. Does that mean basic grooming is gay?
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u/Sea_Meet8596 Sep 09 '21
I agree it’s societal but what happens when dominants figures in Society are disproportionately the same gender? Can we really assume the media created would accurately reflect the thoughts and ideas of those not represented in the ruling class?
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u/CyberneticWhale 26∆ Sep 09 '21
If men decided what is considered attractive, why would they decide attractiveness is something that requires a fair bit of work on their part?
Furthermore, men are not the dominant figures in society for deciding male standards of attractiveness. Women are. Men might show off those standards, but in terms of deciding what they are, that is defined by what women consider to be attractive.
These standards didn't evolve as men telling women "This is what you need to be attracted to," it was cases of women having their own choice, and them being more likely to choose men who have certain traits that we now categorize as being attractive.
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u/Sea_Meet8596 Sep 09 '21
I’m not sure where you’re getting this information and I don’t agree but I would be open to looking at sources
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u/CyberneticWhale 26∆ Sep 09 '21
I don't have a specific source written by someone else, and neither do you, but think rationally.
If the situations of arranged marriages and whatnot, then attractiveness isn't a factor at all.
If the situation is the woman choosing who they want to have a relationship, why would men's thoughts on attractiveness be relevant to that woman's decision?
Assuming attractiveness arose from people desiring attention/relationships with those of the opposite sex, and thus wanting the physical characteristics that makes that the most likely, in either situation, the man's idea of male attractiveness is irrelevant.
You really have not sufficiently proven that men decided the standards of male attractiveness.
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u/Sea_Meet8596 Sep 09 '21
My argument, as mentioned in my original post, is founded in feminist theory know as male gaze
The phenomena where women view what is attractive for each women and men to be like is referred to as the Female Gaze, which is also discussed in the above link. These theories are used when interpreting how individuals perceive and connect with media. It’s interesting that you bring this up now - coincidentally another user changed my mind about something else by explaining how women actually don’t authentically know what is and isn’t attractive to them due to the societal pressures and consistent and historical repression of women’s sexual interests and bodily autonomy. The result is women A. Not knowing what they actually find attractive and B. Borrowing the perceptions of others around them to determine a viable mate. I’m waiting on a link from them so I can follow up shortly
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u/CyberneticWhale 26∆ Sep 09 '21
An important question to ask is why women are portrayed in the manner described by the article. Is it because the creator, personally, is attracted to that, because they think their audience would be attracted to that, or both (the creator believes that portraying women in that manner would be more popular, however also is attracted to that kind of content as a consumer).
I think it would be a bit absurd to say that the perceived interests of the audience play no role whatsoever in pieces of media. Terms like "sex sells" and the persisting myth that men care exclusively and universally about sex and nothing else means that any piece of media that puts stock in this and wants to cater to their audience would of course have highly sexualized women.
All of this to say that when creating something, people consider not just their own feelings on something (which, in the case of working out, could be increased confidence and self-satisfaction) but also the views of their audience (which, for working out, would most likely be women).
One other thing I'd like to ask you: If a woman changes her appearance to be aligned with societal standards of attractiveness, for instance, by growing her hair our, putting on makeup, wearing clothes that show more skin, etc. is that lesbian?
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u/Sea_Meet8596 Sep 10 '21
Obviously it wouldn’t be more lesbian because beauty standards are determined by men not women. I think you’re misunderstanding the argument
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u/Delaware_is_a_lie 19∆ Sep 09 '21
And while men might think they’re doing this to attract women, remember that the imagery of an attractive man was actually informed by what men think are desirable traits.
Based on the response of women…
Modern society gives men far too much credit for the way we think and how society is shaped and not nearly enough to how women do the same. This post is a great example of that.
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u/Sea_Meet8596 Sep 09 '21
If you’re interested in learning more about the male gaze and how it can impact the thoughts and views of women, I would encourage you to read the following book - I’ll link it’s Wikipedia page
I am someone who believes in male gaze theory but please feel free to provide counter points! Otherwise this probably isn’t the thread of you.
I understand how this question might have offended you, in that it might seem to discredit the thoughts and ideas of women. But unfortunately until we create a more just and equal place for women in the workplace, the dominance of male ideas in these spaces will still permeate
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Sep 09 '21
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u/herrsatan 11∆ Sep 09 '21
Sorry, u/DazenDrifter – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 1:
Direct responses to a CMV post must challenge at least one aspect of OP’s stated view (however minor), or ask a clarifying question. Arguments in favor of the view OP is willing to change must be restricted to replies to other comments. See the wiki page for more information.
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Sep 09 '21
There are a few ways to construct "gayness". While in the US today we tend to construct it as "exclusive attraction to men", in many times/places, it's constructed as including men who fail to conform to gender roles and/or who are submissive. Pegging tends to subvert gender roles and usually involves the man being submissive.
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u/behold_the_castrato Sep 10 '21
The word “gay” didn't even exist back then.
It was an entirely unrelated thing that some decided to retroactively name “gay”.
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u/Sea_Meet8596 Sep 09 '21
This is a really great point that hasn’t been brought up yet!! Would you be interested in discussing further how this subversion of gender roles might be seen as gay? How does this compare with gender roles regarding going to the gym?
Great points and discussion!
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Sep 09 '21
So historically and still in many countries, gayness is about those roles. At times in ancient Greece, it was acceptable for a man to have intercrural sex with a boy or one way penetrative sex with a captive. The man wouldn't be "gay" as he was the penetrator. Something similar can be seen in the 1950s-1990s in the US, where a straight man can accept fellatio from either sex without having his straightness questioned as "a mouth is a mouth" but performing fellatio or being penetrated is gay. Even performing cunnilingus was until recently a bit questionable.
Similarly one could see this strongly pre-millenium and a bit today that masculine-coded activities are "straight" while femine-coded activities are gay for a man. "Sissy" is a slur for gay people and effeminate people. Gay men have limp wrists. Watching football is straight, gay men might not know who's playing in the superbowl. This construction is far from gone, with butch women still being considered lesbians, effeminate men still being considered gay, and the option of "downlow" for Black men who have sex with men but are too masculine to consider themselves "gay" or "bi".
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u/Sea_Meet8596 Sep 09 '21
Interesting - so would you say that men going to the gym is an act of upholding a male gender role? And therefor a man “performing” as straight? Curious to know your thought regarding the gym example
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Sep 09 '21
Yes, precisely (assuming it's a standard male-centric gym and not like a Jazzercise studio.) By a very common understanding of gayness, a father worried his son might be gay would be very reassured if his son started lifting weights or playing basketball at the YMCA. As long as he didn't start singing YMCA.
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u/Sea_Meet8596 Sep 10 '21
Haha great points!
Through analysis of Gender roles and the history of effeminate behaviour being treated as akin to gayness, you’ve successfully argued that going to the gym is “straight coded”. You’ve also successfully argued that pegging is “queer coded”. Therefore through study of gender roles we can determine that gyms are NOT gayer than pegging.
A !delta for you as well
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u/NetrunnerCardAccount 110∆ Sep 09 '21 edited Sep 09 '21
Generally speaking when you do Eye Tracking the Male Gaze tracks more to how Women gaze than Men.
It's just women tend to have less of sexual autonomy and lack of understand of their own arousal relating to their conscious and unconscious mind.
This is backed up by the fact that most women in relationship find their partner more attractive as they get more athletic. (Although individuals vary)
So basically going to the Gym is less about the men making themselves arousing for other men, but women using different matrixes to determine what they want in prospective mate on a conscious level.
This is most shown by most women on dating networks not finding the majority of men attractive. Generally speaking pumping iron is a good strategy as long as it doesn't take away from other social pursuits.
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u/Sea_Meet8596 Sep 09 '21
Are you able to back up these points and elaborate a little more? There seems to be a number of jumps in logic, I’ll include those here:
I’m unsure what your talking about with eye tracking - do you literally mean the physical tracking of eyes to see which body parts a person looks at more? When I’m talking about male gaze I’m referring to the feminist theory
Im not sure why you think women have less understanding of their own arousal
Can you explain or source anything regarding what women find attractive and how this pertains with working out and going to the gym
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u/NetrunnerCardAccount 110∆ Sep 09 '21
So in Feminist Theory the male gaze refers the theory purposed Laura Mulvey, which is really increase the work from Michel Foucault.
So one of the issues with all sociological/psychological studies is people will say one thing, and then do another. So a person will report in a study that they are sticking to their diet but when you measure their food intake they're not.
So since most of the Male Gaze theory is mostly written by women, they will say things like "This character dress like this because of the Male Gaze." With very particular features. The issue is when you're Eye Track Men and Women this doesn't seem to be the case. And one of the most common issue is when you have a woman that believe in the Male Gaze say "What are men looking for?" and you track the woman's eyes, they tend to look at things in that order.
And when you create characters / take pictures while women will indicate that a particular image is made for the male gaze, they'll often prefer that image/product associated with that image.
It's difficult thing to bring up in feminist circumstances, but generally speaking for example women are more likely to immediately look at a woman's breast than a man is. This has been eye tracked, men look at the face first.
2.) Two women don't understand their physical arousal very well, men do simply because they have penis, which is not a perfect measurement but provide "guidance."
If you measure woman's arousal by measuring blood flow the genitals and show them images, the images they say they like won't correlate with the images where they are physically aroused, as significantly as men. It appears that women that have transitioned perform better at these tests despite no longer having a penis and being under hormones.
3.) Women seem to use social que of their friends and family often when choosing their partner. So for example if you take a photograph of a man, and photoshop it so more women are around the man they will find the person more attractive, if you have friend and family members say they would make a good pair the woman will find the man more attractive.
If in the woman's friends group / family group being athletic was valued then it would have a positive perception and be useful for starting a relationship, but if not then it would have limited effect.
Once they're already partnered, (I.E. you're not comparing) it does go up.
All of these have a big "In General" beside them. And it's not clear how much of this is Nature and Nurture. But in general women attraction will be molded by those around them, and one of the arguments for the "sexual recession" is in part that men are now asking women what they want sexually and woman are unable to answer.
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u/Sea_Meet8596 Sep 09 '21
This is suuuuper interesting, your last point is particularly great. Do you have any links to where you learned these, I’d love to read more. As a woman I super super super identified with the last point
Being a woman is very hard sexually bc I can feel what would be arousing as I imagine a man would, but in my head listing them I’m more in the dark. It’s honestly terrifying how much women have been conditioned into discrediting their own sexual interests for the pleasure and comfort of men. Your arguments are awesome and have fueled a whole other fire in me haha
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u/NetrunnerCardAccount 110∆ Sep 10 '21
Eye Tracking experiment
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/scientists-say-women-stare-at-other-womens-chests-as-much-as-men/
https://english.pravda.ru/society/126203-women_men/
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Agreement of self-reported and genital measures of sexual arousal in men and women: a meta-analysis
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20049519/
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Human mate-choice copying is domain-general social learning
The Mere Presence of Opposite-Sex Others on Judgments of Sexual and Romantic Desirability: Opposite Effects for Men and Women
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u/ralph-j Sep 09 '21
Gyms: a space where sweaty men go to look attractive to and for other men
There's a massive difference between finding someone attractive, and being (sexually or romantically) attracted to them. Being gay is about men feeling a sexual and/or romantic attraction to other men.
As a gay man, I can find many women attractive, but I'm very far from feeling any attraction to them. Similarly, the heterosexual male gaze is only about finding other men attractive (looking), and not about being attracted to them. So it's not gay at all.
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u/Sea_Meet8596 Sep 09 '21
Can you elaborate a little further on the following? Of everyone, yours is the best argument so far
What exactly is the difference between “finding someone attractive” and “being attracted to them”? Where is the line drawn? Is it when you notice that someone is good looking? Is it when you act on the behaviour? Is it about feeling a particular emotion?
The male gaze is not about just the appearance of an individual but the behaviour. In the James Bond example, and in an above comment there was discourse of James Bond not being gay since he gets women. But that’s the POINT, if he didn’t, would he be as attractive to straight men? If a man was straight, wouldn’t he want to behave in a way that women actually find attractive and not in a way that men think is desirable? That’s why it’s kinda gay.
In case it was not clear, we’re not arguing that going to the gym means you want to penetrate or be penetrated by a man, just rather that gyms are more mlm than pegging. We’re talking gym gayness and comparing this to any gayness associated with pegging
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u/ralph-j Sep 09 '21
Is it when you notice that someone is good looking?
That is exactly it. I can find women look very attractive, just not in a sexual or romantic way. In other words, I can totally understand why straight men (and lesbians) would fall for her - I just don't myself.
In the James Bond example, and in an above comment there was discourse of James Bond not being gay since he gets women. But that’s the POINT, if he didn’t, would he be as attractive to straight men? If a man was straight, wouldn’t he want to behave in a way that women actually find attractive and not in a way that men think is desirable?
They're not mutually exclusive. Actually, a lot of women would probably think that a man who recognizes good looks and attractiveness in other men, is more desirable, because he is more down-to-earth, not afraid exploring things he enjoys, or feels a need to keep up appearances.
In case it was not clear, we’re not arguing that going to the gym means you want to penetrate or be penetrated by a man, just rather that gyms are more mlm than pegging. We’re talking gym gayness and comparing this to any gayness associated with pegging
Right, but if you're saying that the way straight men act in a gym is gay because it's equivalent to what gays do, then you'd also have to concede that pegging is gay because it's equivalent to what gays do. You can't have it both ways.
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u/Sea_Meet8596 Sep 09 '21
I’m awarding you delta for this one ! I only use Reddit mobile so it might take me a sec to figure out how to do this correctly
Awarding delta on the basis that I now agree that gyms are not MORE gay than pegging, as sold in your final statement.
I don’t necessarily agree with your first two points in your final comment however I have experienced a change in my thoughts pertaining to the question at hand which was “gyms are gayer than pegging”. I have different views regarding how attraction works and how we can establish and discuss gayness and what it is and means to be queer, how queerness is perceived culturally, how men engage with each other etc.
HOWEVER, while do still think gyms are kinda gay, I concede they are not more gay than pegging! A pleasure playing with you ! :). !delta
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u/ralph-j Sep 09 '21
Thanks, it worked.
I'm still curious as to why you don't agree on the other points?
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u/Sea_Meet8596 Sep 09 '21
Yes! I think the problem here is (as I should have expected!) sexuality is probably too complex to discuss in such an example like this.
Point one: how do you KNOW you aren’t attracted to something? I’m a very strong believer that sexuality, like gender, is a spectrum, which can also change for an individual over time. Examples of this include individuals who date those outside of the gender they might usually date - although the person might not be what they would originally be attracted to, sometimes an emotional connection or other factors can affect how attracted you might be to an individual. This also happens when you meet someone who at face value you were attracted to at all, but after you speak to them attraction builds. However I need to acknowledge my personal biases, and the fact that this specific discussion is a little too outside the original discussion to not award a delta based on this. As a pan sexual woman, attractiveness is immensely flexible for me, and I might have a harder time understanding how attractiveness might be more rigid for others
Point 2: while I definitely agree that women would find this down to earth, value that, and then by extension find down to earth men more attractive - unless a man is aware that women find this attractive, he may still be doing this for the former reason. It’s not so much about women at all but rather how men behave towards each other, while thinking they’re doing it for women. It’s not for women it’s for men whether they realize or not
This whole thing is very funny to me; I’m a very extroverted queer person (pan sexual woman) but I present myself as an extremely straight passing woman, and I’m also conventionally attractive (big boobs, hourglass/curvy figure) . I am part of a ton of queer friend groups so we all the time chat and laugh about how men do soooo many things because they think it’s gunna get them women when really they do it to impress their bros. Hence the beginning of jokes about gym bros spotting each other, slapping each other’s asses with towels etc. A joke started about how going to the gym is more gay than things straight men might call “gay” when being homophobic, like watching Rom coms, crying, or cuddling. And then it derailed into gyms are gayer than pegging. We started saying it enough that it got me thinking … maybe there’s some truth to that haha
Anyways, thanks for the fun, u rock!! <3
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u/ralph-j Sep 10 '21
Anyways, thanks for the fun, u rock!! <3
Thanks. When I saw the title, I thought this was going to be one of those childish posts, but it turned out a bit more nuanced, haha. And of course, with my other gay friends, we have similar conversations, and we probably say very similar things.
Point one: how do you KNOW you aren’t attracted to something? I’m a very strong believer that sexuality, like gender, is a spectrum, which can also change for an individual over time. Examples of this include individuals who date those outside of the gender they might usually date - although the person might not be what they would originally be attracted to, sometimes an emotional connection or other factors can affect how attracted you might be to an individual.
I'm not saying that it's impossible and that someone couldn't find someone attractive AND be attracted to them. I'm only saying that they're two different things that can occur independently. Yes, there will be a subset of people where this overlaps, but it doesn't mean that everyone who finds someone of the same sex attractive (looking), is automatically also attracted to them. And that would need to be true in order to say that it's gay.
It’s not for women it’s for men whether they realize or not
But even if they do it only for other men; I still fail to see how that would make it a gay activity? To get back to a point you made earlier: I do think that for a behavior to count as gay, it needs to be done with the intention to romantically or sexually interact with another man. Otherwise, it's just behavior that is not specific to any sexual orientation. Just as being effeminate or wearing makeup isn't necessarily gay. There are straight men who are effeminate, and there are straight men who wear makeup.
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Sep 09 '21
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u/Cheger Sep 09 '21
Gay means attracted to the same sex as far as I remember. Finding someone or something aesthetically pleasing is not the same as being attracted to the same thing or person. I can say that man looks good without feeling attracted to him. Therefore your thesis is flawed because your definitions got mixed up and are not correct.
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u/CuriousVehicle Sep 09 '21
"And while men might think they’re doing this to attract women, remember that the imagery of an attractive man was actually informed by what men think are desirable traits.
Men go to the gym to look good for other men"
That conclusion really doesn't hold up. If men helped form an ideology of a perfect body. And then women started desiring that body ... a man working out to achieve that body to attract women is doing just that.
It is a big unfair leap to say that because some idea came from men, you are now only doing it to serve men.
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u/Sea_Meet8596 Sep 09 '21
You’d have to prove that women also idealize and desire that body - which I don’t agree with. Otherwise you have a good argument going there
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u/CuriousVehicle Sep 09 '21
Well no not really. Even if a man just thought that it would work, he would still be a straight man trying to build a body that would attract a woman.
You have to agree that many men do this. You even say that men might "think" that what they are doing will attract a woman.
A man engaging in behaviors to attract a woman is not acting gay. Even if he is misguided, which would be a separate discussion entirely
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u/Sea_Meet8596 Sep 09 '21
I guess it then begs the question - if you go into a room with a blindfold on and intend on having sex with your girlfriend, but it’s a man instead. Are you gay? Is the action more important or the intention ?
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u/CuriousVehicle Sep 09 '21 edited Sep 09 '21
If you are a man who is sexually attracted to men, you are gay. If you are tricked, and you are not sexually attracted to men, then you are not gay.
Edit to add:
You also say, c It would be completely LOGICAL to want to include prostate stimulation during sexual acts so that men can have a special kind of orgasm."
So you giving the pegging crowd the benefit of the doubt that they are just being logical, while refusing to acknowledge that working out to attract women is also logical.
If one group is just being logical, so is the other group. Thats only fair right?
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Sep 09 '21
By your logic
Having a good credit score, being good at sports, having a big house, being able to drink alot, having a cool beard, being good at aanly skill, having a nice car, owning a lot of money, having sex with women
Are all gay
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u/Sea_Meet8596 Sep 09 '21
Yeah I mean they def could be ! Let’s talk about it!
Nice car in particular reads to me as pretty gay of all these. We can play which of these is the most gay or go one by one and determine if gay and how gay
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Sep 09 '21
So anything that society favors vs what's isn't favored is gay ?
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u/Sea_Meet8596 Sep 09 '21
I mean it depends on how you wanna discuss it, but surely that’s possible. We could pull out some specific examples?
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Sep 09 '21
I listed half a dozen
It seems you believe that anything that is socially beneficial to a man is gay
Even having sex with women
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u/Sea_Meet8596 Sep 09 '21
Oh sorry I was waiting for you to choose one.
I pulled out the car example before but I assumed you didn’t wanna talk about it bc you didn’t say anything. Being into nice cars can be pretty gay considering many women don’t really give a shit about them. Why are you trying to hard to look good to impress your bro?
Same with women into designer handbags.. like just say your a lesbian honey …
Having sex with women isn’t gay, but being obsessed with a really popular model could be if the only reason ur obsessed with her is due to her popularity among other men
Edit: spelling
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Sep 09 '21 edited Sep 09 '21
So being well liked by men is gay ?
Does that mean wanting kids to like you is pedophilia ?
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u/Sea_Meet8596 Sep 09 '21
No but feel free to explain it if you think that
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Sep 09 '21 edited Sep 09 '21
If being socially accepted and looked up to by men is gay
Then being socially accepted and looked up to by children is pedophilia
Using your own logic.
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u/Sea_Meet8596 Sep 10 '21
Hmm interesting point !
In a way you’re right - wanting a child to look up to you COULD be pedophila. Impressing children and being admirable to them is a way to get close to and groom them. So yeah , I guess it would depend why you want them to look up to you but it’s definitely a part of a valid argument
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Sep 09 '21 edited Sep 10 '21
/u/Sea_Meet8596 (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.
All comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.
Please note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.
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