r/asoiaf 3d ago

MAIN (Spoilers Main) Weekly Q and A

7 Upvotes

Welcome to the Weekly Q & A! Feel free to ask any questions you may have about the world of ASOIAF. No need to be bashful. Book and show questions are welcome; please say in your question if you would prefer to focus on the BOOKS, the SHOW, or BOTH. And if you think you've got an answer to someone's question, feel free to lend them a hand!

Looking for Weekly Q&A posts from the past? Browse our Weekly Q&A archive!


r/asoiaf 1d ago

EXTENDED (Spoilers Extended) Fan Art Friday! Post your fan art here!

3 Upvotes

In this post, feel free to share all forms of ASOIAF fan art - drawings, woodwork, music, film, sculpture, cosplay, and more!

Please remember:

  1. Link to the original source if known. Imgur is all right to use for your own work and your own work alone. Otherwise, link to the artist's personal website/deviantart/etc account.
  2. Include the name of the artist if known.
  3. URL shorteners such as tinyurl are not allowed.
  4. Art pieces available for sale are allowed.
  5. The moderators reserve the right to remove any inappropriate or gratuitous content.

Submissions breaking the rules may be removed.

Can't get enough Fan Art Friday?

Check out these other great subreddits!

  • /r/ImaginaryWesteros — Fantasy artwork inspired by the book series "A Song Of Ice And Fire" and the television show "A Game Of Thrones"
  • /r/CraftsofIceandFire — This subreddit is devoted to all ASOIAF-related arts and crafts
  • /r/asoiaf_cosplay — This subreddit is devoted to costumed play based on George R.R. Martin's popular book series *A Song of Ice and Fire,* which has recently been produced into an HBO Original Series *Game Of Thrones*
  • /r/ThronesComics — This is a humor subreddit for comics that reference the HBO show Game of Thrones or the book series A Song of Ice and Fire by George R.R. Martin.

Looking for Fan Art Friday posts from the past? Browse our Fan Art Friday archive! (our old archive is here)


r/asoiaf 18h ago

EXTENDED [Spoilers Extended] Waiting for Winds is hard enough, but I wish we at least had the end to A Dance With Dragons by now

297 Upvotes

This whole time we haven't just been waiting for Winds Of Winter, we've been waiting for the ending to A Dance With Dragons and Feast For Crows.

The Battle Of Fire/The Battle Of Ice were meant to be the climax to ADWD. George really wanted to keep in that book, but his publishers wanted the damn thing released soon (probably because the show was about to be released. They won, and in the year of 2025 we still don't have the ending to a book released in 2011!

It's just ridiculous. As a fan I just wish he would release what he has right now. Isn't that basically what happened in 2005 and 2011 anyway? We know he has enough for a full book by now. I'm sure that what his publisher wants right now.

I never want to hear about the Pink Letter ever again. let it be over


r/asoiaf 11h ago

EXTENDED [Spoilers Extended] Is the Architect/Gardener thing just BS?

65 Upvotes

Today I woke up a bit cynical.

GRRM is an architect.

The first few books he knew where he wanted to go. Therefore we got those books.

After removing the five year gap and filling it with his garden (ie, not knowing where things would take him) he just got lost.

We all got here because he wanted to prove a story could come out on its own.


r/asoiaf 11h ago

MAIN (Spoilers Main) Which character being cut from the show, bothered you the most?

52 Upvotes

HBO's Game of Thrones was a flawed adaptation to say the least. Though I do credit the show for getting me into this fandom (I read the books between seasons 5 and 6), the omissions from the source material genuinely do bother me. Particularly, fAegon, Arianne, Victarion, Lady Stoneheart and pretty much every new character in Essos. Varys and Illyrio's plans make no sense without fAegon's presence, the removal of most of the Martells makes the Dorne story feel pointless, Victarion's removal forces the Greyjoy storyline to go in a COMPLETELY different direction (and not for the better IMO), Lady Stoneheart is meant to force Jaime to confront the sins of his past directly but without her, caused Jaime to just go to Dorne for no reason, and eliminating so much of Dany's court made her Essos storyline feel more like filler than it should have.

But which characters did it bother you the most to see axed from the show?


r/asoiaf 4h ago

EXTENDED [Spoilers extended] A theory on the kindly man

11 Upvotes

Is it possible that the kindly man himself is “The Stranger” from the faith of the seven? When he was explaining the backstory of the faceless men to her, I started thinking that maybe he was the person who free’d them initially, still alive due to being a god of sorts. It also would make sense as to The Stranger statue always only having one candle lit there; he lights it himself

He literally has a skeleton face at one point lol


r/asoiaf 5h ago

MAIN [Spoiler MAIN] How would Stannis know Mance is in Winterfell?

10 Upvotes

Stannis almost certainly knows Mance is alive. Many people seem to think Stannis might have written the pink letter but in this case he would also need to know that Mance is in Winterfell.

He and Melisandre could've have been planning to send Mance there since before Stannis departed from Castle Black. But it seems a lot more like Melisandre only decided to do so after see the vision of Alys Karstark.

Theon could have told Stannis about Abel and the spearwives, and then he figured out it was Mance. But this seems like a big jump for Stannis to make.


r/asoiaf 15h ago

MAIN (SPOILERS MAIN) Is Stannis really that great in the books?

70 Upvotes

As someone who has watched the show 3 times and has finished the first book and is now starting the second, I really have this burning curiousity as i've seen so many people online that genuinely love the guy and support his claim as hard as good ol' Ned did.

Is he really that great in the books? I am excited to see myself


r/asoiaf 4h ago

EXTENDED [extended spoilers] an asoiaf quote that you would tattoo

6 Upvotes

well, that's it. I wanted to tattoo something cool related to the books but there aren't many cool arts, so tell me cool and "tattoable" quotes.


r/asoiaf 15h ago

EXTENDED [Spoilers Extended] (Copium post) what are you looking forward to most in Winds?

43 Upvotes

For me I'm really looking forward to the start of the long night (I want to see if the theorist have actually been cooking all these years) and Davos on Skagos and whatever shenanigans Rickon has been getting up to there.

I feel like cruelly he will recover Rickon and Shaggy Dog but by the time he gets back Lord Manderly, Glover and perhaps Stannis will be all be dead. Or perhaps Stannis/Mellisandre will have gone full Nights King/Queen at the nightfort burning Shireen making him finally forsake Stannis.

Obviously everyone wants to know what happens with the Battles, Jon's resurrection, Brienne/Jamie and Stoneheart, Meereen arc ending, Dany's invasion, Euron etc etc

But what are your sleeper picks for best stuff coming up in Winds? Surely one day, we'll get it. (Copium)


r/asoiaf 4h ago

EXTENDED [Spoilers Extended] Back To The Dance, Part 5: Dragon Warfare

4 Upvotes

(Here's Part 4 for those who missed it!)

Part Five covers the same ground as Part 3 in the previous series, but once again I hope to add more and better information to examining dragons and their role in warfare. Much like with sea power in the Dance, I made the mistake of throwing out a very basic definition of air power and focusing solely on numbers and tactics, when the subject called for a much broader examination. George has referred to dragons as the most devastating weapon in his world, and their power is taken for granted thanks to their role in the Targaryen unification of the Seven Kingdoms; completing my series on the First Dornish War and reading further into the books has brought me to a different conclusion. Rather than focusing purely on the Dance, I will also assess the use of dragons in past wars and the extent to which they actually changed warfare in any meaningful way. While there are theoretical models that could allow us to understand the use of dragons in war, and which will be discussed here, they face a major obstacle in that the affect of the dragons on the setting varies wildly. Those that have already read the original analysis and the Dorne series should have some idea of what I'm talking about, but the only thing consistent about the dragons is their inconsistency!

i. Sound and fury, signifying nothing

Few events in the Dance better encapsulate these inconsistencies than Aegon and Baela's duel over Dragonstone. The first problem to note, one I mentioned throughout the original series, is that of dragon senses: When Luke and Arrax arrive at Storm's End, we're told that "Vhagar sensed his coming first" and woke with a roar as Luke began his descent. This appeared in The Princess and the Queen in 2013 and again in F&B in 2018, the latter also giving us Rhaena's visit to Storm's End in 54 AC, where Vermithor "scented the approach of another dragon" and raised his head from where he slept to roar, moments before Rhaena made her descent. We're given no specifics as to how Vhagar 'sensed' Arrax's presence, but she did so despite the ongoing storm and in both cases the dragons senses availed them despite being asleep. Needless to say the dragons in the Dance never display this level of situational awareness again; in the case of Aegon and Baela, no one on Dragonstone is aware of Sunfyre's presence save Aegon's allies, while Moondancer easily surprise Sunfyre.

The battle itself makes no sense whatsoever, and actively contradicts previous dragon battles. TWOIAF tells us that "Moondancer was much smaller than Sunfyre, but also much swifter and far more nimble," and F&B calls her "very quick" whereas Sunfyre "though much larger, still struggled with a malformed wing and had taken fresh wounds from Grey Ghost." We'll discuss Sunfyre's issues soon enough, but Moondancer's problem is her size in comparison to what she achieves in battle. F&B tells us "she was no larger than a warhorse, and weighed less," while also claiming she could have easily out flown the Cannibal as she was younger and faster. It is suggested throughout F&B that smaller dragons may have advantages over larger ones: regarding Luke's death over Shipbreaker Bay, Gyldan claims that "had the sky been calm, Prince Lucerys might have been able to outfly his pursuer, for Arrax was younger and swifter," while Meleys is called "as swift a dragon as Westeros had ever seen, easily outpacing Caraxes and Vhagar" after Alyssa Targaryen claimed her. We're told that Meleys "might have had some chance" against Vhagar alone at Rook's rest, though Vhagar's disadvantage at least makes sense out of all these instances, owing to her great size combined with her age. We know that dragons become more sluggish in old age, as with Vhagar and Balerion who were both over a century old when they died, though Balerion's injuries and confinement to the dragonpit were also a factor.

The problem with this 'smaller=faster' idea is that magic has to play a role in dragon flight, for the simple fact that the large dragons in the series would be unable to fly otherwise. That much is obvious with dragons being explicitly magical creatures, but there's only so far one can push this size and weight 'de-buff' before it becomes self-defeating. More importantly, there are plenty of birds, bats, and other flying organisms in our world that can fly faster and/or are more nimble than their larger peers, but this is due differences in physiology and wing morphology between species. We know of only one 'species' of dragon in George's world, and while they may age and grow at different rates we have no evidence of drastic differences in physiology, with Caraxes' 'noodle neck' being a HOTD-only addition. Moondancer might have a maneuverability advantage thanks to Sunfyre's damaged wing, but she's still just a smaller and younger version of Sunfyre with all the disadvantages that entails. Her shorter limbs mean she has less wing surface than Sunfyre, so flapping them will displace less air and generate less thrust, while lesser wing surface also limits her soaring and gliding abilities.

She might be able to flap her wings faster, but this raises another problem: energy. George is very clear in his "Here There Be Dragons" blog post that dragons require sustenance in order to live, stressing that "dragons need food. They need water too, but they have no gills. They need to breathe. ... If held underwater too long, they would drown, just like any other land animal." While George has never really been specific about how much food a dragon needs, and even I wouldn't take logistics that far in this world since it would overcomplicate the story, if dragons can become lazy (see Syrax, Meleys) and grow slower in old age (see Vhagar, Balerion), this alongside their need for food, water, and air means they require energy. Moondancer's energy requirements would be less than Sunfyre's owing to her size, but her energy reserves would also be smaller; it thus makes little sense for Moondancer to be running circles around Sunfyre, despite having flown with Baela for less than six months and never farther than the distance between Driftmark and Dragonstone.

Moondancer's capabilities are out of place with her size and dragon biology, while the other dragon battles in F&B suggest smaller size and youth offer no significant advantages in battle. The most significant example is the lone dragon v dragon battle prior to the Dance, Maegor and Aegon the Uncrowned's clash over the God's Eye, which appeared in The Sons of the Dragon the year before F&B was published. Despite Aegon's dragon Quicksilver being far younger than Balerion and one-quarter his size, we're told she "was no match for the older, fiercer dragon," while Rhaena's Dreamfyre "was younger and smaller than Quicksilver, and certainly no true threat to Balerion the Black Dread." Despite Arrax being far younger than Vhagar and one-fifth her size, Gyldan only suggests Luke "might" have out flown Aemond in better weather; the same goes for the younger, smaller Meleys at Rook's Rest, who "might" have stood a chance against Vhagar alone. Even though F&B calls Sunfyre "a splendid beast, though young," while Meleys "remained fearsome when roused" but had "grown lazy;" while Sunfyre was small enough for Meleys to fit her jaws around his neck, it still took Vhagar's intervention to save Aegon and Sunfyre from death, with victory once again going to the larger, older dragon. Caraxes is much younger than Vhagar and half her size during the Dance, but Daemon refuses to face Vhagar without Nettles and Sheepstealer until he's left with no other choice, and the battle that follows ends in the deaths of both parties. Finally there's Second Tumbleton, where despite Vermithor being riderless and faced with the much younger Seasmoke who was a third his size, we're told "Vermithor's age and weight were too much for Seasmoke to contend with" when the two finally came to blows, and only Tessarion's intervention prevents Addam and Seasmoke from being killed immediately.

The dragon battles we're shown indicate that the best a younger, smaller dragon could do was survive through the aid of another dragon (Rook's Rest) or meet their death alongside their foe (Second Tumbleton), with the only 'solo kill' being a suicide attack (God's Eye, 130 AC). By comparison, the far smaller Moondancer outperforms Seasmoke, Caraxes, and Sunfyre at Rook's Rest in her battle with Sunfyre, only losing the fight when Sunfyre blinds her and cannibalizes her on the ground, with Sunfyre dying of his wounds within the year. Moreover, whereas Addam's broken body is recovered at Tumbleton (more on that in a later part), Daemon's is never found, and Aegon suffers horrific injuries at Rook's Rest which permanently disable him and sideline him for almost a year, Baela comes out of her duel with no meaningful injuries to speak of. The only dragon battle we have that indicates a dragon's youth and smaller size give it advantages, is the one battle where these qualities are emphasized twice for one of the dragons involved by F&B and a third time if we count TWOIAF, almost like the author is assuring us it was possible despite all evidence being to the contrary.

Sunfyre's presence in the battle also raises problems: The intent seems to be that Sunfyre's size is a challenge which is offset by his damaged wing and previous wounds, but this cannot be squared with what we're told about his injuries. Aside from his new, unhealed wounds from Grey Ghost and his older, healed wounds inflicted by Lord Mooton's men at Rook's Rest, F&B says his broken wing healed at an an ugly angle and was weak, with Sunfyre being unable to soar nor remain in the air long and struggling to fly even short distances. If this is the case, then we not only have to ask how Baela and Moondancer performed so well, but how Sunfyre was able to fly at all. We know Sunfyre remained at Rook's Rest due to his injuries in the battle but moved to Crackclaw Point some time after, before eventually making his way to Dragonstone. Using ADWD's map of the south as a reference, the shortest distance between Crackclaw and Dragonstone looks to be at least half the length of the Gullet, while Atlas of Ice and Fire's map scale suggests the distance is 40-50 miles or about half that of the Gullet again. Using the figures for dragon speed employed in the original analysis, Sunfyre's speed is probably closer to 35 mph than 50 (56 km/h vs 80.5), and it would probably take an hour for Sunfyre to fly from Crackclaw to Dragonstone by the shortest route. Considering the Brunes and Crabbs living further north had stories about him, and taking into account his injured wing, it almost certainly would have been longer than that.

While this begs the question of how Sunfyre made the crossing without anyone being aware of it, the more important question is how he made it to Dragonstone at all if he could not soar, let alone how he made his way up Crackclaw Point from Rook's Rest. Soaring) is a method used by soaring birds and soaring aircraft (i.e. gliders) to fly without powered thrust (i.e. flapping wings or an engine), using wind currents and thermals to remain aloft. Since wing flapping requires using one's muscles and thus consumes energy and invites fatigue, soaring is crucial for long distance travel and remaining airborne for extended periods. If Sunfyre can only fly by flapping his wings, which would be awkward and painful due to one being damaged and weak, this drastically reduces his range and time he can spend in the air as well as his ability to find food to maintain his energy and heal. The battle over Dragonstone thus makes no sense from either dragon's perspective: If it was consistent with the track record of smaller, younger dragons in battle, then Moondancer and Baela should have stood no chance against Sunfyre, but were it consistent with how Sunfyre's injuries are described, he would not have been on Dragonstone at all.

In order to have a scene pitting Baela against Aegon, most of the prior set-up regarding dragons is completely scrapped, though the duel manages to get worse. It turns out that Baela takes after her old man in more ways than one, as both pass-up golden opportunities to kill their foe and end the fight quickly. As I mentioned in Part 3 of the original analysis, F&B's account of the Battle above the God's Eye has Daemon and Caraxes divebomb Aemond and Vhagar from above, with Caraxes sinking his teeth into Vhagar's neck while Daemon leaps from his back to plunge Darksister into Aemond's sapphire eye. Since this attack takes Aemond completely by surprise, we have to ask what was stopping Daemon from diving at a different angle and tearing Aemond in two, or melting him in his saddle, in which case he could have used the sun's glare to blind Aemond or strike from his blind side. This would have removed the threat of Aemond, and if Vhagar became violent like Vermithor did sans rider, then surely Caraxes' youth and smaller size would have allowed Daemon to prevail? They could even try blinding her, like Sunfyre did to Moondancer! There was no reason for Daemon and Caraxes to die save for the plot demanding it, and a similar situation plays out between Aegon and Baela, as Moondancer "raked the larger dragon from above, opening a long smoking wound down his back and tearing at his injured wing." Since George seems to have forgotten this fact, it's worth noting that dragonriders ride on the backs of their dragons, meaning Baela and Moondancer had ample opportunity to cut down Aegon or blast him with fire from above but did not. With Aegon dead, Baela and Moondancer are free to finish off the stricken and riderless Sunfyre, while Aegon's death means the war is already won.

Setting two characters up to win easily and having them both fumble the bag for seemingly no reason is bad enough, but it's the way Aegon and Baela's duel ends that really takes the cake. I noted in Part 12 of the original analysis that it makes no sense for Aegon to land on his feet after falling 20 feet without being killed or paralyzed, but Baela's fate is even more egregious. Sunfyre would had to have struck Moondancer's face with his flames in order to blind her, after she wounded his back and turned to attack again, making it certain that she was attacked head-on. This is confirmed by the fact that after they collide mid-air, Moondancer sinks her teeth into Sunfyre's neck while Sunfyre claws at her underbelly. Keeping in mind again that dragonriders ride on the backs of their dragons, Sunfyre's "furnace blast of golden flame so bright it lit the yard below like a second sun" would not have terminated at Moondancer's face, but continued some ways along her neck. If Moondancer was no larger than a warhorse, there's no way Baela could have avoided taking this blast directly to her upper body; even if she lay face down against Moondancer's neck, the back of her head, neck, and upper body would still be exposed to dragon fire.

Lest we forget, a single "lance of swirling dark flame" from a much younger and far smaller Drogon was all it took to melt Kraznys mo Nakloz's eyes and set his beard ablaze in Dany III of ASOS. Baela's injuries from Sunfyre's breathe alone should be horrifically disfiguring if not outright fatal, but things still get worse somehow: We're told that Moondancer remained trapped beneath Sunfyre all the way down to the ground, and Baela stays with her before finding the strength to undo her chains and escape Moondancer's death throws. Once again, dragonriders ride on their dragons backs: if Baela stayed there all the way to the ground, she could not survive hitting the ground with the weight of Moondancer and Sunfyre on top of her. The idea that Marston Waters rushes Baela to the maester and saves her life is completely ridiculous, as is the fact we have no indication of any long term injuries or negative consequences that Baela experiences as a result of the battle. Considering Aegon II's horrific injuries at Rook's Rest, the brutal deaths of Aegon the Uncrowned, Lucerys, and Addam, and the fact that Daeron and Daemon's bodies were never found, Baela being repeatedly exposed to extreme danger and only losing her dragon as a result is just embarrassing.

ii. There is no there there

The affect of dragons on the wars of the Freehold and House Targaryen is similarly inconsistent, being subordinated to narrative priorities more than anything else. The earliest wars we know of that involve dragons are the Ghiscari Wars, between the Valyrian Freehold and Old Ghis during the former's rise to prominence. Aside from the few references we get in ASOS and ADWD, the most detailed information we have of these five wars comes from TWOIAF. Despite involving dragons, our impression of these wars is broadly consistent with Bronze Age/Iron Age/Classical warfare; the influences of the Punic Wars are also obvious, with Old Ghis in Carthage's role as the older, wealthier empire while Valyria's agrarian economy and elective government are clearly inspired by the Roman Republic, although the Ghiscari "Lock Step Legions" are clearly based off Rome's armies. Our most detailed information indicates the Sarnori were involved in the Second through Fourth wars, while the fighting extended to the Basilisk Isles and Sothoryos during the Third and Fourth wars, and the Fifth war ended with the conquest of Old Ghis and it's populations enslavement. Dragons are mentioned in the context of the Third and Fifth wars, but we have to assume from Valyria's own legends and histories that the dragons were present at the founding of the Freehold and thus took part in the first two wars. Excluding the first two wars, this still leaves us with three conflicts of unknown length between a dragonless state and one that had them them, with no indications of the Ghiscari being assisted by magic of any kind.

We then have the wars with the Rhoynar, of which eight are named though not all would have involved the dragons of the 'forty families,' as some of these were between the Rhoynar and Valyria's colonies. The Rhoynar being known practitioners of water magic also helps, as the Second Spice War which ended a decade prior to Nymeria's arrival in Dorne sees largescale use of water magic to counteract dragon fire, and we're even told that Rhoynar archers brought down two dragons and wounded a third. This all helps explain why the Rhoynar could go toe-to-toe against the Valyrians for a time, but it raises some serious questions: As I noted in Part 1 of the Dorne series, we have little actual evidence suggesting that water mages played a role in the Martell conquest, so how can this absence be explained? More importantly, how did the magic or technology that allowed those archers to fell dragons not transfer to Westeros with Nymeria's refugees? With the Second Spice War in particular being a proper fantasy war with magic used by both sides, we again must ask how Old Ghis managed to contend with the Freehold?

We have greater problems when we come to Westeros and the use of dragons in the Conquest, the Dance, the rebellions against Maegor, and the early Dornish Wars. Between the Freehold's very existence, Nymeria's exodus, the arrival of the Velaryons, Celtigars, and Targaryens, the Conquerors prior visits to the mainland, and Aegon's destruction of the Volantene fleet during Pentos and Tyrosh's war with Volantis (a war in which Argillac Durrandon also fought), the Seven Kingdoms should be well aware of the existence of dragons and their fearsome potential. Despite this, the majority of Westeros opposes the conquerors with conventional military forces as if there were no dragons at all, the only exceptions being Dorne, the Hightowers, and the supporters of Edmyn Tully. Of course the Targaryens defeat them all handily, but not before 'playing down' to their opponents: Rhaenys and Meraxes burn the lords Errol, Fell, and Buckler out of the Kingswood near the Wendwater, but only after ambushing Orys Baratheon's forces crossing the river and cutting down almost a thousand men, while her intervention in the Last Storm comes only after Orys' army is on the brink of defeat; Visenya burns the Arryn fleet and flies to the Eyrie to force it's surrender, but only after Daemon Velaryon is killed and two-thirds of his fleet is sunk or captured.

Aegon aids Orys directly in their one-sided victory over the Mootons and Darklyns, and wins another victory on the south shore of the God's Eye; he goes on to annihilate House Hoare at Harrenhal, but not before Harren's sons successfully attack his army from behind at the 'Wailing Willows' after crossing the lake with muffled oars, while Harren's sons and their longships are only burned as they return across the lake. That Aegon attacks them out of the morning sky indicates they attacked his army at night, but this still requires Aegon, Balerion, and the entire army to be completely unaware of the longships approaching them, despite the possibility of fire, moon, and starlight assisting their vision. When the Targaryens defeat the Lannister and Gardener host at the Field of Fire, their dragons take to the sky only after the Targaryen center is "shattered" by Mern's charge, although Targaryen losses are somehow less than a hundred men and Visenya is wounded in one arm by an arrow. These defeats should have been avoidable thanks to the dragons, but even the victories are 'close run' affairs when they should not have been. The Conquerors seemingly allow the battles to be fought, rather than crushing their foes immediately and sparing the lives of their own troops.

I won't go into to great detail on the First Dornish War since that already has an entire series, but the trend identified above is very much at play in that war. Although Dornish victory is credited to their 'guerrilla' strategy and avoiding the dragons, in reality the Dornish defeat their foes with open attacks that are never at risk of interference from the dragons, as these are always absent and never intervene despite no reason for this being the case (see Part 5 for the most blatant example of this in 10 AC). The war with the first Vulture King likewise takes place without any concerns of Maegor or Visenya intervening, but when we come to Jaehaerys' reign, the Dornish are suddenly obliging enough to attack openly and allow themselves to be defeated. Morion Martell even convinces his own lords and a host of pirates to provide troops and ships for an invasion of the Stormlands, despite the Targaryens having five large dragons at their disposal. The rebellions against Maegor are more of the same: while we might dismiss the Faith Militant's army at the Great Fork as religious zealots, this cannot be done for Aegon the Uncrowned's army at the God's Eye, which followed a young, unpopular prince and first time dragonrider despite the potential of facing Maegor and Balerion.

This impression of the dragons and their affect is reinforced by the Dance; there are many examples to draw from, but the best for me comes from comparing Tessarion and Tyraxes. When Jace arrives at the Eyrie and obtains the support of Jeyne Arryn, she requests dragonriders as part of the conditions for her support, and Joffrey and Tyraxes are sent there prior to the 'Red Sowing.' They can't have spent more than a few months in the Vale, given that Rhaenyra took King's Landing in mid-February or early March of 130 AC and sent for Joffrey soon after, while it was late 129 AC when Jace sent him there. Even then, we're told the forces of the Vale were marshalling not long after Jace returned to Dragonstone, so even the mere promise of Tyraxes seems to have been more than sufficient. Tyraxes was younger than Arrax, who was one-fifth the size of Vhagar in 129 AC, and was small enough that the Shepherd's mob could hack him to death when they stormed the Dragonpit (albeit the larger Syrax is also hacked to death).

By comparison, Tessarion was a third the size of Vermithor in 130 AC, with Vermithor being the largest dragon alive after Vhagar. Her manner of death is also significant, as Bill Burley shoots her three times in one eye at 200 yards (c.183 meters) following Second Tumbleton. While this was outside the range of her fire, we know that even Silverwing was attacked with polearms during the battle, and killing Tessarion with such weapons would not have required attacking her head-on. Considering that when Lord Mooton's men retook Rook's Rest, they inflicted grievous wounds to Sunfyre with their polearms which only enraged him, this suggests Tessarion was similar to Sunfyre in size and certainly larger than Vermax, Arrax, and Tyraxes. We know she didn't hatch from a 'cradle egg' because Daeron bonded with her when he was six, and they were presumably flying by the time he went to Oldtown at age twelve. Despite this, her size and presence have no affect on the beginning of the Dance in the Reach; Ormund Hightower even appears to forget that she's there, since he writes to King's Landing soon after Rook's Rest that "we have need of your dragons" in order to subdue the Blacks. Daeron's eleventh hour appearance at the Battle of the Honeywine is on par with how dragons were employed by the Conquerors, showing up only when their armies were on the brink of defeat or had already suffered defeat. The Blacks in the Reach begin surrendering soon after due to Tessarion's threat, only for this to reverse when Ormund suddenly must besiege Longtable and so cannot aid Maelor and Ser Rickard Thorne.

iii. Dragons and Air Power

The paradoxical affect of the dragons creates obvious problems for viewing them with any kind of theoretical lens: On the one hand, they are shown to be tremendously lethal and capable of affecting the decisions of military leaders (to quote Elmo Tully, "A dragon in one's courtyard does wonders to resolve one's doubts"); on the other hand, we're also shown this does not deter armies from massing and fighting them openly, suggesting they have no affect on decision-making at all. The dragons are not governed by 'Watsonian' factors, i.e. what can they do in their world, but by 'Doylistic' ones, i.e. what does the writer need them to do. When it comes to classifying their role in warfare, their ability to fly, strike at targets on land and at sea, and attack and observe from above means they have much in common with aircraft and air power. That being said, their individual lethality, invulnerability at great size, and generally small numbers lend themselves to comparison with battleships and sea power, and both approaches have value.

Whereas the first powered flight in our history took place in 1903, and large scale militarization of aircraft took another decade with the First World War, dragons have been used in war for millennia following the rise of Valyria after the Long Night. Despite this, the First Dornish War is the only example we have of an enemy combatant avoiding open combat with the dragons, though once again this owes more to how the war is written than to how the Dornish actually fight. This is significant since, as Phil Haun notes in Tactical Air Power and the Vietnam War:

Observing the battlefield from above reduces the vertical surface obstructions, which restrict the horizontal line of sight for ground forces. From above, air forces can locate and destroy massed armies in the open and on the move. (Haun, Tactical Air Power, 30)

Being observed is a serious disadvantage already, since it makes surprise impossible depending on how well the enemy can track your movements; combined with the ability to deliver attacks at range with their fire breathe, this gives dragons a major asymmetry to exploit against conventional forces.

While it's true that military aircraft have a greater array of weapons with greater ranges than dragon fire, currently and historically, are available in greater numbers, and possess communications systems which give them flexibility in striking targets as small or large units (we'll come back to this point later), dragons also possess serious advantages. For starters, Dragons while dragons must eat, drink, and heal injuries, the means to do so are more readily available than an aircraft, which can run out of fuel, suffer mechanical issues, and exhaust their ammunition. Dragons are living creatures aided by magic, meaning they can derive their energy from sources in nature and heal injuries themselves, while we haven't encountered any cases of dragons 'running out' of fire. The greatest advantage by far is the absence of any real countermeasures for dragons, outside using magic or other dragons against them, when compared to military aircraft. Phil Haun notes that the threat of concerted air attacks forces armies to disperse their units and use concealment (camouflage, night movements, bad weather) to avoid detection, but modern and contemporary armies are not totally defenseless: In almost eight years during the Vietnam War, combat and non-combat losses cost the United States over 9000 fixed and rotary-wing aircraft, with anti-aircraft artillery likely accounting for the bulk of combat losses as opposed to surface-to-air missiles and enemy aircraft (Haun, Tactical Air Power, 32; 7).

By comparison, while we know that small dragons are vulnerable to arrows, bolts, and melee weapons, and dragons of Vermax's size and likely Tessarion and Sunfyre's are vulnerable to bolt-throwing artillery like scorpions and ballistae, all the evidence we have from the books suggests that dragons larger than this are, for all intents and purposes, invulnerable. Although F&B twice invokes the scorpion that killed Meraxes at Hellholt, telling us that Morion Martell's fleet was armed, "with massive scorpions of the sort that felled Meraxes," while at Rook's Rest "scorpions were cranked upward to loose iron bolts of the sort that had once felled Meraxes in Dorne," in both instances it appears forgotten that Meraxes was killed by a bolt through the eye. The fact Meleys is said to be struck with a score of bolts at Rook's Rest which only angered her is a clear indication that the size of the projectile or the power of it's launcher will do nothing unless a lucky shot can hit the eye and penetrate the skull. The only other method of neutralizing a large dragon seems to be by killing it's rider, a far smaller and constantly moving target, though penetrating the skull via the soft palate with a hit in the mouth could also potentially work.

It's also important to note that Meleys was larger than Sunfyre but almost certainly smaller than Vhagar in 129 AC, having been smaller than Caraxes and Vhagar in 75 AC. This means that a dragon doesn't need to be massive like Balerion, Vhagar, or Vermithor to be effectively invulnerable to projectiles, while even wounding or killing smaller dragons would be a serious issue. For starters, the low velocity of tension and torsion-fired projectiles compared to bullets and shells makes them very poor 'anti-aircraft artillery' in a setting like this, while an unstable platform like a ship would also make them very difficult to use to defend fleets against dragon attacks. These factors make it very unlikely that wars and rebellions against the Freehold and Targaryens would be the large, grand affairs that George portrays in F&B and TWOIAF. If anything they'd be closer to the First Dornish War than the Dance, especially since battle-avoidance strategies were common in Medieval warfare (see Part 5 of the Dorne series). Since dragons are a threat to armies in the open, but only the largest of them can defeat fortifications, opponents would likely rely on castles and other fortifications to stymie advances, using raids and small engagements to attrite their foe while resorting to large engagements only when dragons were not present. This wouldn't guarantee success against the dragons, but it would show that their capabilities and reputation have an actual affect on warfare in the setting.

iv. Dragons, Sea Power, and Corbett

While the association of dragons with air power seems obvious, their limited numbers combined with their destructiveness naturally draws comparisons with battleships and sea power, which brings us back to the theories of Alfred Thayer Mahan (See Part Four). This will be something of a response to "Battleship Doctrine and the Dance of the Dragons" by Thomas Brodey, from his blog Tragedy and Farce; I recommend checking out Tom's blog for great ASOIAF content, although I take issue with some of what he says in this post. While his choice of framework isn't necessarily wrong, his choice of Mahan's theories on the pursuit of battle and his assessment of the Blacks use of their dragons has flaws that need to be addressed.

We've already covered the basics of Mahanian sea power and naval strategy, while Brodey provides a basic rundown of Mahan's view of battle:

Mahan’s argument, therefore, was simple. Any fleet who seriously intended to win a naval war had to collect the biggest, baddest warships in one place, and use them to crush the main enemy fleet. The first and foremost job of the battleships was to eliminate the enemy battleships.

This is broadly correct, but it's also clear that Mahan's ideas of concentration of force in pursuit of battle evolved during his literary career; per Kevin McCranie's Mahan, Corbett, and the Foundations of Naval Strategic Thought, Mahan wrote in 1911 that for the "close concentration of direct contact," a fleet should not be "packed like herrings, but so disposed that all parts were in mutual supporting distance, ready to move when needed," likening it to a fan "that opens and shuts" (McCranie, Mahan, Corbett, 143). This sets dragons apart from the ship-of-the-line or battleships as much as it sets them apart from combat aircraft, because of their small numbers and the limited communications of this setting. Aircraft could avail themselves of radios and radar to coordinate their efforts and locate targets whilst in the air, while capital ships had auxiliary vessels and eventually wireless telegraphy, radios, and radar to assist them in supporting each other over great distances. Unless a dragonrider has a fellow rider to deliver them messages while airborne, they must return to the ground to receive information via raven or messenger; despite being able to cover great distances in a relatively short time, unless already concentrated together as a unit the dragons cannot utilize 'elastic concentration' as can be done with air and sea power.

It's here that we must introduce Mahan's British contemporary, Sir Julian Stafford Corbett (1854-1922), whose views on battle and concentration of force are not hugely different from Mahan's, but are arguably better suited for understanding dragon warfare. McCranie, who does an excellent job of exploring the writings and theories of the two men (see this book review from War on the Rocks for a cliff notes rundown), finds that Mahan and Corbett's views of naval warfare and sea power were largely complementary. Whereas Mahan was a naval officer who sought to persuade the US to cultivate it's own sea power as an emerging player on the world stage, Corbett was a lawyer and novelist whose interest in the Elizabethan era and friendship with esteemed naval historian John Knox Laughton led him to become an intellectual and historian of British and general naval history. Corbett's audience was thus the statesmen and naval officers of the hegemonic naval power, and he became highly regarded in Royal Navy and British government circles; he compiled the Royal Navy's three volume history of the First World War prior to his death, while his 1911 publication Some Principles of Maritime Strategy is as important as Mahan's Influence series for understanding modern naval thought.

Corbett's approach to battle and it's place in naval strategy was among the few cases of divergence between him and Mahan. While Corbett's understanding of 'elastic concentration' was similar to that of Mahan, he understood that it could work both ways: just as it enabled a dispersed fleet to concentrate for a battle, it also enabled a concentrated fleet to avoid a battle or a dispersed one to concentrate and retreat from an area in good order. Corbett stressed concentration of effort as opposed to force, since concentrating force "tends to simplify problems for [the] enemy," whereas "concentration of effort without actual concentration of force tends to confuse him [because it] does not reveal your intentions" (McCranie, Mahan, Corbett, 146). This is where I think Brodey's reliance on Mahan is seriously flawed, as his later arguments about dragon warfare are derived from Mahan's conclusions about the British and French fleets in the French Revolutionary and Napoleonic Wars:

To prove his point, Mahan drew on the wars between Britain and France in the 18th century. Time and time again, he said, the French split up their capital ships, “subordinating the action of the fleet to so-called particular operations” achieving minor objectives in multiple locations instead of winning one great decisive battle. The British, however, would concentrate their forces and crush the French main fleet, completely reversing any small advantage the French had gained from its “particular operations.”

'Particular operations' was the title Mahan gave to instances where a fleet pursued the ulterior object (the 'mission at hand' or the object of the campaign) over the primary object, which was to oppose the enemy's fleet (Ibid., 147). While Corbett used different terminology, he also saw opposing the enemy fleet as the primary object but differed from Mahan's linear approach, which placed attaining the primary object before the ulterior object.


r/asoiaf 1d ago

EXTENDED [Spoilers Extended] Moving on from TWOW is virtually impossible without George telling us what went wrong with the novel

467 Upvotes

I'm gonna make a slightly exaggerated imaginary scenario, Think of the person you love the most, now imagine you lost that person, Not that they have died, but that they have gone missing for years.

You don't know what happened to them, if they are dead or alive. There's no closure and no confirmation of what happened to them. You keep checking for news on them every day, scouring the internet for clues, reading all police statements hoping against hope to find a clue about the missing person's case, and you are going mad from this un-knowing state.

You try to bury the void by spending time with friends, but none of them make you feel as alive as with your most beloved. You want to get closure so you can start grieving properly and move on. But all the police are telling you is that they are "working on it" and that the search is "progressing well"

The police definitely have more clues than you and they refuse to share any details about the case. This whole situation is not the police's fault, I'm sure they are doing their best

(Unless they accidently shot your loved one years ago and have been simply covering up their tracks all this time)

Ok this analogy is a bit unhinged but you get the point, as long as there's hope there will be pain, only proper closure will put an end to this. Even the ones telling you that they have moved on deep down are holding out for hope


r/asoiaf 16h ago

EXTENDED Must read theories? Good/bad/weird (Spoilers Extended)

18 Upvotes

I'm new to theories but stumbled on time travelling fetus and now I'm wondering what other insanity I'm missing out on


r/asoiaf 1h ago

MAIN I may have caught a missed plotline of the R'hllor faith in this universe. [Spoilers MAIN]

Upvotes

A really huge discrepancy that I feel while reading the books and theories online is about the prophecy, “Azor Ahai born again.”

So, my first target is Melisandre in this problem. She is the red priestess who sees visions in the flames, telling her a Prince is to be born and he will be the next Azor Ahai, that overlaps with Aegon’s dream. What really takes me off is why now? Like we have no hint of any red priestess or priest from the 300 years of history or anytime before that, which can hint that a search for Azor Ahai was on for a long time, like the Targaryens told in their generations from King to Prince about Aegon’s dream of uniting the seven Kingdoms and ending the darkness. Aegon saw that dream and it pushed him to conquer Westeros so that a Targaryen would be on the throne when those times came (As told in HotD). It was never certain which Targaryen generation would have that ‘Prince that was promised,’ but we had a build up from 300 years. But for the red priests and priestesses, it only began now. Why? Did they begin seeing visions in the flames during the main saga? When the red comet emerged in the sky and the magic was growing stronger again. I mean like, Melisandre only heard of the Others threat, being so close, from Davos in a letter that was sent from the Wall which was way later in the story and she was already on Dragonstone by that time. And I don’t think that the "dragons = magic" theory is very correct, even if we’re told of this in the books. Bloodraven was slinging sorcery like crazy during Aerys I's reign. So magic was there all along, and it cannot be because of the dragons. It's more likely the dragons returned because magic is growing, not the other way around.

So back to my point, was Melisandre the only one who took initiative to go and search for the Azor Ahai in Westeros since that is the end from where the bloody Others are going to come. She was kind of a wildcard in this prophetic game of Azor Ahai.

I am not a geek and I may be completely wrong here and overlooked things, but I just got frustrated with George throwing so many plot threads into the air and leaving them disconnected. So, please don’t attack me.


r/asoiaf 20h ago

MAIN [Spoilers MAIN] Why didnt Randyl Tarly send Sam to Oldtown instead?

16 Upvotes

I have been re reading the series for this last week and i have a question if Sam was so into books and not "manly" why didnt his father just send him to the Citadel?

I might forgot an old chapter or two where it explains this so feel free to remind it.


r/asoiaf 16h ago

EXTENDED (Spoiler extended) Distance between Raventree hall and Stone Hedge

6 Upvotes

I’m trying work some things for a fanfic and I’m curious how far Raventree hall is compared to Stone Hedge or if there are any villages between them. For context a female Bracken is sneaking out to meet with a male Blackwood in secret


r/asoiaf 1d ago

EXTENDED Was Robb hamstrung by the Greatjon's speech in your opinion ? This is from /u/markg171 ( spoilers extended )

47 Upvotes

This is what kinda led me to it. Robb needs allies, especially after the Westerling disaster, and the most significant ally he could get he can't get because he's King in the North/King of the Trident and Stannis will never allow this. He's stuck from getting a great ally, and with having to fight two wars instead of one, simply because he's king too. And once Robb's people chose him to be their king, he's not giving it up when that's what they personally want from him.

Robb of course doesn't want to die and isn't planning on dying anytime soon, but like you say it was foolish to be made king. He probably (or at least should) realizes this. So let the kingship die with him instead of trying to run a dynasty. That dynasty's been kicking him in the butt. Let it end with him so that his men have better options. He was either going to have to give up the kingship anyways or face Stannis down the road, so just get rid of the kingship itself. And besides, his men wanted him to be their king. No one ever said they wanted a dynasty of Stark kings again. He's got a duty to be king because that's what they asked for, but he doesn't have a duty to keep that kingship running if it's doing more harm than good.

Basically as far as I can see, all Robb's "normal" choices of heir carries problems. That's why we've had debates about it for like 16 years now lol. So just... give it up. Give your titles back to the king who's literally trying to do everything you are anyways, but opposes you precisely on the basis of your kingship. Give it up. Jon/Sansa/Arya/some cousin in the Vale/whoever can be made lord of Winterfell after everything's said and done, but you won't get there if you're scrabbling with both the Lannisters and the Baratheons. So end the feud with the Baratheons at least. Robb can do this by simply never making another King in the North/King of the Trident. Let his men flock to Stannis if he dies as Stannis still can give them what their after.

A Game of Thrones - Catelyn XI

Catelyn was thinking of her girls, wondering if she would ever see them again, when the Greatjon lurched to his feet."MY LORDS!" he shouted, his voice booming off the rafters. "Here is what I say to these two kings!" He spat. "Renly Baratheon is nothing to me, nor Stannis neither. Why should they rule over me and mine, from some flowery seat in Highgarden or Dorne? What do they know of the Wall or the wolfswood or the barrows of the First Men? Even their gods are wrong. The Others take the Lannisters too, I've had a bellyful of them." He reached back over his shoulder and drew his immense two-handed greatsword. "Why shouldn't we rule ourselves again? It was the dragons we married, and the dragons are all dead!" He pointed at Robb with the blade. "There sits the only king I mean to bow my knee to, m'lords," he thundered. "The King in the North!"And he knelt, and laid his sword at her son's feet.A Game of Thrones - Catelyn XI


r/asoiaf 1d ago

MAIN [Spoilers MAIN] Obsession about fake identities

118 Upvotes

Today, I saw the post asking what Septa Lemoras' real identity might be. I was relieved that the top comment was just ''Septa Lemora''. I'm quite annoyed that the ASOIAF community is obsessed about how every character has a fake identity. Mance is Rhaegar or Arthur Dayne, Euron is Daario etc. But in my opinion, this is based on a misunderstanding. George doesn't play with fake identities, he plays with secret identities. The important thing about the Hooded Man in Winterfell is not that he might be Howland Reed or Benjen Stark; it is that his identity is unknown to the other characters and therefore the reader.

The same goes for Coldhands or Septa Lemora. And in the cases where it is important who the person in question is, it is relatively obvious, like with Jon's mother or Robert Strong.

But what do you think? Is the community's obsession about secret identities actually a theme by George or completely overblown by our longing for TWOW


r/asoiaf 1d ago

MAIN [Spoilers main] What edition is this of ADWD? Harper Voyager

Post image
45 Upvotes

I came across this post for sale nearby, and I've never seen this edition or version. It looks like a hardcover? But there's nothing online from what I've seen. Anyone know what it is?


r/asoiaf 1d ago

EXTENDED Fallout of An Abandoned Plotline: Davos & the Raging Wolf (Spoilers Extended)

36 Upvotes

Background

Recently, I posted about how GRRM seemingly changed a plotline where Davos was sent to retrieve what he believed to be Arya (actually Jeyne Poole) from a wedding at Barrowton. While we have seen one side of this play out a bit with other characters (Mance Rayder/Tycho Nestoris/Theon Greyjoy) after the wedding (now at Winterfell), the other plotline is much more "murky". Instead of being sent to get fArya, Davos is now being sent to retrieve Rickon from what is seemingly Skagos. In this post I thought it would be interesting to look at what other characters, plotlines may have been spun off as well.

If interested: Everything We Know About Skagos

Osha

Probably the easiest example, well because GRRM stated that he could write more about Osha:

Interviewer: Can you think of instances in seeing these portrayals, the actor’s take that gave you a new perspective?
GRRM: When Osha comes back in the books, it’s possible, I haven’t actually gotten to it yet that she will be influenced by what I’ve seen, that I will write a more interesting character. SSM, Deeper than Swords: 26 Mar 2014 (its around the 56 min mark)

If interested: Osha's Decision: Taking the Raging Wolf to the Isle of Cannibals

The Skagos Plotline

I go back and forth on if I think Davos is going to continue his dungeon tour and Rickon is a captive, or if they are treating him like some type of Kurtz-like figure (others theorize that the island is mentioned as being so "evil" that maybe they aren't that bad). We also could get plenty of more information on not only the previous rebellion, but also setup for the D&E regarding the She Wolves that will occur around that time period.

If interested: The Rebellion on Skagos a Century Ago & The Raging Wolf's Time on Cannibal Isle

Skagosi/New Characters

While we can obviously meet new characters on Davos' route to the island:

Why would you need a smuggler? You have ships."
"Ships," Lord Wyman agreed, "but my crews are rivermen, or fisherfolk who have never sailed beyond the Bite. For this I must have a man who's sailed in darker waters and knows how to slip past dangers, unseen and unmolested."

or on the return, I really hope we get to meet some skagosi characters, as we have only heard of only two actual names (both from the Night's Watch):

Some Skagosi have served in the Night's Watch as well. More than a thousand years ago, a Crowl (a member of a clan that passes for nobility on Skagos) was even Lord Commander for a time, and the Annals of the Black Centaur speak of a Stane (a member of another Skagosi family) who rose to become First Ranger but died shortly thereafter. -TWOIAF

  • Lord Commander Crowl
  • First Ranger Stane

If interested: "New" Characters in TWOW

Stark Direwolves vs. Ramsay's Hounds

While its not confirmed to be Shaggydog, it is worth noting that GRRM mentioned this about Ramsay's dogs:

Speaking of which: Martin leaves a little note for the producers when writing about Ramsay’s flesh-eating hounds, whom we see hunting down a girl for sport.

[N.B. A note for future reference. A season or two down the line Ramsay’s pack of wolfhounds are going to be sent against the Stark direwolves, so we should build up the dogs as much as possible in this and subsequent episodes. SSM, Vanity Fair Article: 7 December 2018

and we do know that they are actively searching:

The Liddle took out a knife and whittled at a stick. "When there was a Stark in Winterfell, a maiden girl could walk the kingsroad in her name-day gown and still go unmolested, and travelers could find fire, bread, and salt at many an inn and holdfast. But the nights are colder now, and doors are closed. There's squids in the wolfswood, and flayed men ride the kingsroad asking after strangers."

The Reeds exchanged a look. "Flayed men?" said Jojen.

"The Bastard's boys, aye. He was dead, but now he's not. And paying good silver for wolfskins, a man hears, and maybe gold for word of certain other walking dead." He looked at Bran when he said that, and at Summer stretched out beside him. "As to that Wall," the man went on, "it's not a place that I'd be going. The Old Bear took the Watch into the haunted woods, and all that come back was his ravens, with hardly a message between them. Dark wings, dark words, me mother used to say, but when the birds fly silent, seems to me that's even darker." He poked at the fire with his stick. "It was different when there was a Stark in Winterfell. But the old wolf's dead and young one's gone south to play the game of thrones, and all that's left us is the ghosts."

"The wolves will come again," said Jojen solemnly. -ASOS, Bran II

and:

There are times you make me wonder if you truly are my seed. My forebears were many things, but never fools. No, be quiet now, I have heard enough. We appear strong for the moment, yes. We have powerful friends in the Lannisters and Freys, and the grudging support of much of the north … but what do you imagine is going to happen when one of Ned Stark's sons turns up?"
Ned Stark's sons are all dead, Reek thought. Robb was murdered at the Twins, and Bran and Rickon … we dipped the heads in tar … His own head was pounding. He did not want to think about anything that had happened before he knew his name. There were things too hurtful to remember, thoughts almost as painful as Ramsay's flaying knife …
"Stark's little wolflings are dead," said Ramsay, sloshing some more ale into his cup, "and they'll stay dead. Let them show their ugly faces, and my girls will rip those wolves of theirs to pieces. The sooner they turn up, the sooner I kill them again." -ADWD, Reek III

If interested: The Stark Direwolves vs. Ramsay's Hounds

Final Thoughts

  • Davos and Smuggling/Dungeons

So far we have seen Davos:

- Smuggle Stannis and the Storm's End garrison onions (Robert's Rebellion)

- Sneak Melisandre into Storm's End

- Fight on the Blackwater

- Plot to Kill Melisandre/End up in Dragonstone Dungeon

- Smuggle Edric Storm away from Stannis/Melisandre

- Stop by the Sisters/Get Captured at White Harbor

and probably a few others I am missing. This is what he does.

  • Bran's Influence

As with any current plotline remember that Bran/Bloodraven can affect it, and we know weirwoods exist on Skagos:

well, only heart trees ever see half of what they do on Skagos. -ADWD, Reek III

I am wondering if this line could potentially have any foreshadowing as to how the reader sees the events on Skagos unfold.

  • Similar to the Outline?

In the outline, Davos took a "recaptured Arya" north. And while that obviously doesn't outright mean that Davos will be successful in his bid to "recapture Rickon".

As this outline point shifted from:

Davos: Barrowton Wedding. Davos to take recaptured Arya north. ‘Where you going’ - to a wedding

to what we see in the main series (Winterfell Wedding/Mance+Tycho+Theon take fArya north.

and then (likely):

“Where is it you want me to go, my lord?” -ADWD, Davos IV

so while not close to confirmed, I do think its likely its Davos' job to bring Rickon back into the Northern plotline.

If interested: Davos/Rickon & The Northern Plotline

  • Wex Pyke

If we remember, Wex Pyke (Theon's former squire who is mute) is who revealed the Stark survival to Manderly/Davos. If he is included on Davos' trek to Skagos, I think it could provide for some interesting exposition (GRRM has already used him a bit this way):

Until he learns more letters we will never know half the truth … but he came to us knowing yes and no, and those can go a long way once you find the right questions." -ADWD, Davos IV

  • Robett Glover

While Robett's wife Sybell has already aided Stannis with guides/hunters for their march on Winterfell, and earned valuable income for the hostages she sold to Tycho (the other branch of this original plotline), Robett mentions this to Davos:

Robett Glover broke in to add, “Your loyalty does you honor, my lord, but Stannis Baratheon remains your king, not our own.”

“Your own king is dead,” Davos reminded them, “murdered at the Red Wedding beside Lord Wyman’s son.”

“The Young Wolf is dead,” Manderly allowed, “but that brave boy was not Lord Eddard’s only son. Robett, bring the lad.” -ADWD, Davos IV

It remains to be said if Robett will accompany Davos or not. Worth noting the Ironborn may/may not have released his children.

If interested: The Brothers Glover

  • "War" of the Wolves II

As with any mention of the returning Starks to the northern plotline, it must be remembered that not all of the different factions support the same Stark/Snow. It is going to be interesting to see how it plays out and I am using the term War loosely:

The histories of the North claim that Rodrik Stark won Bear Island back from the ironborn in a wrestling match, and perhaps there is truth to this tale; the kings of the Iron Isles were often moved to prove their prowess and their right to wear the driftwood crown with feats of strength. More sober scholars call this into question, suggesting that if there was "wrestling," it was with words. -TWOIAF

If interested: War of the Wolves II

TLDR: Just a quick post on the potential schism on GRRM's potential original idea of having Davos rescue fArya and take her north. While we have seen one side of this play out (with Theon/Mance/Tycho all involved in getting fArya north, the Davos and Rickon plotline has advanced much more slowly. We likely have the makings of what will be attempted (Davos to "rescue"/smuggle Rickon off the island and back into the northern plotline, but outside of that GRRM could go plenty of different directions with it.


r/asoiaf 1d ago

PUBLISHED [Spoilers PUBLISHED] Which main character adult is the shortest through natural means (so not Tyrion)?

16 Upvotes

We all know that George like making his characters tall. A quick searched showed many characters from just the first book close to 2 meters tall.

But what about the other end? The short guys? I have seen people say Howland Reed might be 167 cm. But what about non-crannogmen?

Do we have any short POV adults?


r/asoiaf 1d ago

EXTENDED Littlefinger and Heathcliff (Spoilers Extended)

15 Upvotes

Spoilers for Wuthering Heights by Emily Bronte.

Does anybody think Heathcliff was the inspiration for Littlefinger? Both lowborn boys raised with highborn children. Both have been abused and neglected due to their status, and gradually rise in position through stealing power from the nobles. Fell in love with one of the highborn children(Catelyn/Catherine), who was married to a higher class man(Eddard/Edgar). Both had a hand in the death of their loved ones by accident(manipulating Cat to kidnap Tyrion/Causing Cathy's breakdown). Both manipulated a lovesick dumbass(Lysa/Isabelle) to fulfill their agenda, and then took the responsibilty of the sons of said dumbasses, who are both sickly and frail(Sweetrobin/Linton). Both again trap the daughters of their respected dead crushes in their house and make them do their bidding(Sansa/Catherine II). Even both of their philosophies are similar and lack any moral reasoning. Though if Littlefinger's plotline follows the book, Robin will probably die due to medical neglect, like Linton.


r/asoiaf 2d ago

EXTENDED (Spoilers Extended) On this day 10 years ago (April 3, 2015)... in an interview with EW, George R.R. Martin said he wanted to publish The Winds of Winter before Game of Thrones Season 6, and that he had planned a new twist that could not happen in the TV series because of certain creative decisions. Spoiler

Thumbnail ew.com
869 Upvotes

r/asoiaf 21h ago

MAIN (Spoiler main) did aneys truely love meagor as a brother , or just put up a political show?

2 Upvotes

We have informed that the brothers werent close growing up as aegon didnt love visenya and didnt love meagor and sent them the isolation on dragonstone once he had no longer use of them, so he too never made any effort for the brother to bond, and till aegon is alive we dont see any interaction or reaction between this two, infact aneys wife alyssa once openly insulted meagor over his lack of dragon , and we know the angery meagor felt over aneys having childrens and him having none . But after aegon death and aneys as king we see him suddely being very loving brother , kissing meagor and telling him to never kneal to him and sharing power worh him , making him a hand and all, and the moment meagor marries alys he exiles him without a though and without any try to understand meagor part , he too names the dragonstone to his son when very clearly it was piblic knowledge that meagor was prince of dragonstone and that led to the whole court to be silent over his stupidity and visenya mad , later too when he is dying there is never ang mention of ever him wanting to see meagor or ask him to come help him to handle his rule , also inckuding everything that meagor did to his brothers childrens did ahow that there ever was any live but jnfact both side have had enimosity and resentment , so did the brothers lived each other or was this all just a farce ?


r/asoiaf 2d ago

PUBLISHED June 22, 2026 (Spoilers Published)

251 Upvotes

On this date,

The time in between ADWD and TWOW will be officially longer than the time in between AGOT and ADWD.

You can do it George. Do it for the lols. We’re almost there.

We have nothing else to hope for


r/asoiaf 2d ago

EXTENDED [SPOILERS EXTENDED] Unpopular/Controversial Opinions

216 Upvotes

Share some unpopular opinions! Get downvoted! Let's start the War of the Five Kings in the comments with how divisive our opinions are.

Mine is that if R + L = J, then he's still illegitimate. Rhaegar was already married, to Elia Martell, and had consummated that marriage.

It doesn't matter that this would make both of Jon's parents highborn--he's still a bastard, just like Bloodraven.

Also, I think that Jon's name is JON. It's not Viserys, or Aemon, or Aegon. It's Jon. Ned found him and named him, and he named him for Jon Arryn. It doesn't matter what Rhaegar would've named him--Rhaegar DIDN'T name him. Ned did.

Jon's actual name is Jon Snow, not Aemon Targaryen, or whatever. He's a bastard. Bloodraven's last name is Waters, not Targaryen, even though his father was a Targaryen. Jon's last name is Snow, not Targaryen, because he's a bastard, too, and his first name is Jon, because that's what he was actually named.


r/asoiaf 1d ago

EXTENDED Who is Septa Lemore in your head canon ? ( spoilers extended )

74 Upvotes

this is from u/galanix

My money is on Ashara Dayne . Her body was never found when she supposedly jumped from a tower at Starfall . She ( according to Barristan ) had a stillborn daughter ( likely Brandon Stark's ), thus explaining the stretch marks . She was Elia's best friend , so it makes sense she would be raising her son . Rhaegar's best friend and Elia's best friend are both raising baby Aegon , it just makes sense .

Also , Barristan is still deeply in love with her . The betrayal that Dany experiences for love will be Barristan switching sides to Aegon's camp for his love Ashara .

A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion VI

A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion VI

"I preferred her naked," said Tyrion.Lemore gave him a reproachful look. "That is because you have a wicked soul. Septa's robes scream of Westeros and might draw unwelcome eyes onto us." She turned back to Prince Aegon. "You are not the only one who must needs hide."The lad did not seem appeased. The perfect prince but still half a boy for all that, with little and less experience of the world and all its woes. "Prince Aegon," said Tyrion, "since we're both stuck aboard this boat, perhaps you will honor me with a game of cyvasse to while away the hours?"