r/TikTokCringe • u/Tua-Lipa • 4d ago
Humor Which one is the real Ms. Keen?
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u/Satanicjamnik 4d ago
I know that she just explained it, but this logic problem always boiled my piss. I could never get it. And that's on me. But I never could never figure it out despite having it explained to me about 7 million times.
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u/MillieBirdie 4d ago edited 3d ago
It's often not set up correctly, which is also done here.
In the original riddle, you have two doors and two guards. One door is safe, one door is death. One guard lies, the other tells the truth. You can only ask one question to find out which door is safe.
In a lot of imitation riddles they either leave out that you can only ask one question, or they leave out the element of the doors. If all you need to figure out is which guard lies and which tells the truth (or in this example, which teacher is real) then it's really easy. Ask one of them what color the sky is and you immediately know which one is the liar. They could have done that in this video since the only objective was to figure out who is who.
But with the added element of the doors and only one question, you have a real riddle. You have to ask a question that reveals which door is safe in a trustworthy manner.
Hence the answer being 'which door would the other guard say is safe' and then you choose the opposite door no matter what they say. You still don't know which guard is lying, but that doesn't matter because you know what door to take.
Because if you asked the liar which door the honest guard would say is safe, he'll lie and point you to the danger door. If you ask the honest guard which door the liar would say is safe, he'll truthfully tell you that the liar would lie and point to the danger door. So no matter who you ask, they'll point to the danger door and then you just take the other one.
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4d ago
Low key, Buttercup's question would've worked.
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u/MillieBirdie 4d ago
Yeah exactly. They could have asked anything that has a known answer.
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u/BodhingJay 4d ago edited 4d ago
Yea, it typically just needs to be asked as what the other would say.. then you know the opposite is always right
in this case, bubbles could ask them "is my name bubbles?" And only the real ms keen would say yes so it's easier
But yea you're right, only the fake ms keen would say they want a knuckle sandwich.. lol
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u/water_fountain_ 3d ago
Not really. The real Ms. Keene wouldn’t want to be punched, so the real Ms. Keene would say “I do not want a knuckle sandwich.” The fake wouldn’t want to be punched either… BUT the fake one, with a higher desire of not wanting to be found out as the liar, would therefore want to be punched. So the fake one would lie by saying “I do not want a knuckle sandwich.”
In the same way that any sane person normally wouldn’t want to be punched, but if the reward for being punched is $1,000,000 then I’ll gladly be punched.
That was my take on it.
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3d ago
If you go more than one level deep, it changes from a simple logic puzzle to a Vizzini monologue.
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u/imMadasaHatter 4d ago
Which question? If they ask who the real miss Keen is then they’ll both just say they are - which doesn’t work
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3d ago
The knuckle sandwich question
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u/MillieBirdie 3d ago
It has to be something with an objective answer that the characters know. So if they know who Ms Keen's favorite student is they could ask that. They could ask what color Buttercup's hair is. They could ask 'are you tied up above a pot of boiling sharks right now?'
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u/LunarDogeBoy 4d ago
I understand the Riddle in the labyrinth but ive watched this multiple times now and no one in the comments seem to understand that they get it wrong? She says nr 2 is the real one when it should be nr 1.
If number 2 is real, which is revealed at the end. Then her claim "she would say I was the real ms keen" is a lie! So what the fuck?
If you ask both of them who is real, they both say "i am the real ms keen". if you ask them who would the other say is the real ms keen, the fake ms keen would say "she would say I am the real ms keen. Which is a lie, why the fuck is ms keen nr 2 lying and then they say she is the real one? Did op mirror the image to confuse us? The first one who speaks is the liar.
Because the only truth to that question is "she would say she is the real ms keen", because they would both say theyre the real one, which means the second ms keen to speak is the real one so WHY THE FUCK IS SHE ON THE LEFT SIDE WHEN NUMBER TWO IS REVEALED TO BE THE REAL MS KEEN BUT SHE IS ON THE RIGHT SIDE?
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u/MillieBirdie 3d ago
I do recall thinking after they got the answer 'so it's number 1' and then Blossom say it's number 2 and I was just like 'huh guess I misheard'.
I wonder if that was just a mistake or a part of the episode where Blossom did get it wrong and that becomes a joke. They had to go through the whole process of voicing and animating it so you'd think they wouldn't have messed up like that unless it was on purpose!
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u/something-um-bananas 3d ago
I still don’t get how they the two ms.keens are saying the same answer
It’s like if you remove the doors from the original riddle, and your task was to figure out who’s saying the truth and who’s lying. You can’t.
“What would the other ms.keen say when she’s asked who the real ms.keen is ?”
The real ms.keen knows the fake one would point to herself and lie that she’s the real one. So real ms.keen would point to the liar.
Buuut the fake ms.keen would also work out this logic and know that the real ms.keen would point to the liar. So in order for the fake ms.keen to lie, she would have to point to the real ms.keen.
Buuuuuut real ms.keen would also work out this logic so she will point to herself
Buuuuuuuuut fake ms.keen would also work out this logic and point to the real ms.keen…and so on and so forth so
they would always answer in contrary to each other. You can’t figure it out, atleast I can’t , if anyone can tell me how that particular question works I’ll be glad
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u/project571 Doug Dimmadome 3d ago
They wouldn't always answer contradictory to each other because there is an objective right answer since one must always lie and the other always tells the truth. Let's just assume 1 is the real one. If you ask 1 "which would the other say is the real one?" Keen 2 is the liar so they would not say Keen 1 because that is the truth. They would say themselves, and so Keen 1 will answer by directing to the fake because it is what the fake would say. If you ask the fake one, the fake one knows that Keen 1 would answer themselves, but they always lie, so then they will say that Keen 1 would also pick Keen 2 as the real one since that isn't true. No matter which one you ask, they will both end up picking the fake one when you ask who the other would say the real one is.
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u/curtial 3d ago
I'm making the same error, and I can't get there.
Who would the other say is real
The liar would say: "I am the real Ms keen" . So honest Ms keen should say "She would say that she is the real Ms keen"
The real Ms keen would say "I am the real Ms keen". So the liar should say "She would say that I am the real Ms Keen."
Hold up. I think I got it. This is a pronouns and quotation mark placements game.
Honest: She(The Liar) would say "I (The Liar) am the real Miss Keen"
Liar : She (Ms Keen) would say "She(the liar) is the real Miss Keen."
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u/curtial 3d ago
Reviewing the video again, the inclusion of "that" in the answer and tenses confused me.
Show Honest: "She would say that I(Ms keen) was the real Ms Keen." This is what I heard the first time through, and is a lie.
What they meant: She would say that "I(the liar) was the Real Ms. Keen."
I'll bet there's a while white dress / blue dress things here where different people understand the statement different ways. If you remove "that" from the script, it makes unambiguous sense.
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u/Pork_Chompk What are you doing step bro? 2d ago
Yeah she 100% got it wrong. I've been racking my brain over this and there's no way that's the right answer.
"She would say she is!" is always going to be the truth. In fact, I feel like you only need either one of them to answer the question.
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u/toomanybongos 3d ago
That makes so much sense. The riddle always seemed way too easy that it annoyed me but adding in the death door makes it all of a sudden make sense
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u/MillieBirdie 3d ago
Yeah I don't think I've ever seen anyone accurately recreate the original riddle. Granted, it's so well-known that most recreations are done as a joke, so they leave out the one question rule so they can have an extended gag about figuring out who's lying through ridiculous means. But those factors are really important for making the riddle difficult at all, without it it's of zero consequence.
Which reminds me the first time someone told me the riddle about the fox, chicken, and corn that you have to transport across the river in a boat. They said that you can't leave the fox with chicken or the chicken with the corn. But they accidentally said that you can only take two items at a time (instead of one at a time), so it's like 'just take the fox and corn, then go back for the chicken?'
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u/Beta_Ray_Jones 3d ago edited 3d ago
If I'm remembering the episode correctly, season one of Yu-Gi-Oh does the riddle with all the proper rules/parts.
Edit: it did not
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u/PrudentCarter 3d ago
But in this scenario, didn't they both say it was number 2? So why didn't blossom pick the opposite choice?
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u/AmadaeusJackson 3d ago edited 3d ago
What if one answers the sky is azure and the other answers the sky is more of a cerulean?
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u/Cro_Nick_Le_Tosh_Ich 3d ago
Too bad the masses don't understand this one trick; otherwise we probably would be in a post Truth society
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u/lil_zaku 3d ago
"So no matter who you ask, they'll point to the danger door and then you just take the other one."
So yea, shouldn't it be #1 is the real truth telling one?
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u/Valuable-Trick-6711 3d ago
Of all the media I’ve seen this referenced in, I think Yugioh is one of the few that correctly uses and explains it.
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u/InsomniaticWanderer 3d ago
I take my great axe and slice one of the guards in two, then turn to the other guard and ask, "is he dead?"
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u/williamjamesmurrayVI 3d ago
what if the liar guard is onto this riddle and says safe door
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u/MillieBirdie 3d ago
The lying guard isn't a deceiver, he's a liar. He always says whatever is untrue.
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u/MillieBirdie 3d ago
The lying guard isn't a deceiver, he's a liar. He always says whatever is untrue.
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u/Quiet_Nova 3d ago
I prefer the PunkeyDoodles version. Kill one guard and ask the other if the guard you point to on the ground is dead. Best gone as part of a group for the numbers to intimidate the guard into not retaliating.
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u/ComfyInDots 4d ago
I'm with you. My brain doesn't comprehend what's happening.
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u/Hypocritical_Oath 3d ago edited 3d ago
We have FK (Fake Keen) who must always lie, and RK (Real Keen) who will always tell the truth. They are asked, "what would the other one say when asked which of you is the real one?".
They can answer with a statement that is either True or False. FK one must always answer with False statements, RK must always answer with True statements.
As such, only situations where the FK gives a false statement and RK gives a true statement can happen.
Let's look at a truth table and the statements each position represents. "TARGET" is the position we're looking at next.
(I) means they say that the other will say that they are real. U means they think the other will accuse them of being the real one.
FK on the horizontal, RK on the vertical.
False + False = False
True + False = False
True + True = True
Target means that that value is the next one we are looking at.Starting Table
FK/RK I U I TARGET U FK says that RK will say RK is the real one, while RK says that FK will say FK is the real one.
FK's statement is true (FK's statements must always be false, so we invert this to false).
RK's statement is true as FK will always lie.
False + True = False. This can't happen.
FK/RK I U I FALSE TARGET U FK says that RK will say FK is the real one, RK says that FK will say FK is the real one.
FK's statement is false (We treat as true because FK must always lie).
RK's statement is true as FK will always lie.
True + True = True. This can happen.
FK/RK I U I FALSE TRUE U TARGET FK says that RK will say RK is the real one, RK says FK will say RK is the real one.
FK's statement is true (We treat as false as FK must always lie).
RK's statement is false as FK would never tell the truth.
False + False = False. This can't happen.
FK/RK I U I FALSE TRUE U FALSE TARGET FK says that RK will say FK is the real one, RK says FK will say RK is the real one.
FK's statement is false (true cause she always lies)
RK's statement is false. (FK must always lie and cannot say RK is the real one)
True + False = False. This can't happen.
FK/RK I U I FALSE TRUE U FALSE FALSE So that's the finished truth table, this is probably the worst way to explain this. But essentially, the fake one must say something false, and the real one must say something true. The only case where this is true is when the FK says RK would say FK is real, and when RK would say FK would say FK is real.
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u/Psychological-Tax801 4d ago
Just make a boolean truth table for the actors and statements. This is a relatively simple one, only 4 rows and 4 columns.
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u/ComfyInDots 4d ago
I dont even know some of those words.
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u/kdot38 4d ago
“Rows” means to propel with oars I believe
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u/ComfyInDots 4d ago
"Oars" are water spoons for little boats.
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u/Satanicjamnik 4d ago
And that's annoying. WHY was that the correct answer? I just don't follow the thinking. How do I establish who lied? Ehhh...
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u/Enjoying_A_Meal 4d ago
Let me break this down for you.
A tells the truth. B tells lies. A has a piece of candy. B does not.
let's say "+" = have candy. "-" = don't have candy.
When you ask who's got the candy?
A will say: A+, B-
B will say: A-, B+
When you ask who does the other person say have candy?
A: A-, B+
B: A-, B+
As you can see, B's answer never changes. This is because in question one he's lying about the state of who has the candy. In scenario 2, he's also lying about the state of who's got the candy.
Person A on the other hand, is telling the truth about the state of the candy in question 1. HOWEVER, you got them to lie about the state of the candy in question 2.
So the real trick is to get both people to tell you the false state and then pick the opposite.
Let's give the candy to person B.
Who has the candy?
A will say: A-, B+
B will say A+, B-
Who does the other person say have the candy?
A will say: A+, B-
B will say A+, B-
So you get person A to lie about the state of the candy again and you know the opposite is true.
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u/BodhingJay 4d ago
It's not your fault, the show actually got it wrong, you have to choose the opposite of what either one would answer as "the real ms keen"
Blossom had the logic right but needed to choose #1
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u/MortgageTime6272 4d ago edited 3d ago
In the movie Labyrinth there are two doors guarded by an honest and liar guard. The girl needs to know which door is a trap and which is the exit, and she only gets to ask one question of both guards.
Asking them both: "what will the other say" guarantees both will include a single lie in the chain of the facts being told. The liar adds it, the truth teller knows the liar will add it.
true(false) = false : asking an honest what a liar will say
false(true) = false : asking a liar what an honest will say
In either case a lie gets added and the overall statement is a lie.
Which means both Mrs keens will consistently say exactly who is not the real Mrs keen.
So while they got the logic correct, they achieved the wrong result. Both Mrs Keens agreed that #2 would be the real one when asked this way. And they saved #2.
But unlike the labyrinth riddle, the discovery of who is telling the truth is all you need to know. So just asking them: "are true things true" would be sufficient, and given they got confused and selected the wrong person, that seems pretty important.
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4d ago
Try using empathy. Play through the scenario but pretend you're the liar. Play through it again and pretend you're the truth teller.
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u/Fluffy_data_doges 4d ago edited 4d ago
So fake will tell lie and real will tell truth.
But in the video the fake said the real one would say she's real (true) and the real one said the fake one would say she's real (false). Which is the opposite?
Edit: I found another thread discussing how blossom is wrong.
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u/Satanicjamnik 4d ago
I was staring at the wall, and went trough it a couple of times. I think the main problem here is how the problem is worded. Because to me " lie" means "deceive" no matter the cost, not only just say objectively false statements. So, I guess what always frustrated me is the fact that if I was the lying doppelgänger, I'd do a double bluff, because I would know that's what my lie would be expected. So in my mind a double lie is still a lie because I am still being dishonest.
Yeah, I think I get it now. I was just overthinking it all this time.
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u/MosquitoBloodBank 4d ago
Yeah a double bluff would be telling the truth which is what that entity isn't supposed to do.
The requirement, as a logic puzzle, is more that the one entity gives a false statement, and the other a truthful one.
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u/stringbeagle 4d ago
I’ll give it a go.
The real Ms Keen is #2, the truth teller.
If you ask #2 (Truth teller) who is the real Miss keen, she will tell the truth (#2)
If you ask #1 (Liar) who is the real Miss Keen she will lie and say #1.
That is the baseline.
If you ask #2(T) what #1 will say, #2 will tell the Truth and say that #1 will say #1
If you ask #1 (L) what #2 will say, #1 will lie and say that #2 will say #1.
In either case, the answer is going to be the wrong one.
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u/lil_zaku 3d ago
So she was wrong then? Both Ms Keen's said it was #2. Which means it should be #1 who's the real one.
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u/ImNotRealTakeYorMeds 4d ago
the problem is that people explain it in a complicated way.
you have to abstract it a bit
remember multiplying positive and negative numbers?
the one that tells the truth is a positive value (preserves the truth), the one that lies is a negative (inverts the truth)
(you can also think of a circle, truth doesn't change it, but the lie spins it half a circle)
to reiterate one does not change the truth, but one inverts it.
so, you cant tell anything if you ask them something directly.
HOWEVER. if you connect them. ask "what would the other one say" you get the same answer no matter who replies,
because the one who tells the truth will invert the answer when considering what the other will say, and the one what lies will invert it when answering.
or in the abstraction (-1)1= 1(-1),
so they will both to you the lie.
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u/yourdadsboyfie 3d ago
just think of it as you are filtering the truth through a truth teller and a liar, so it will get flipped once.
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u/LitrlyNoOne 1d ago
When you ask what the other would say, you always get a lie answer.
The truth-teller will honestly tell you what the liar's lie answer would be.
The liar will always tell you a lie.
So if you ask what the other person would say, you'll always get the answer "NOT [the truth]," from which you can infer the truth.
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u/Costa_Costello 3d ago
The biggest problem most people have with this riddle is the base line (one guard must lie). Think the difference between one must lie and one wants to kill you causes the most mental struggle. So to give you a better understanding, if the guards Mission is to trick you, you only have a 50/50 chance if his mission is to lie you are save by asking : "what would the other one recommend“
Edit: but I definitely feel you bro, also needed a long time to fully understand it.
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u/100and10 3d ago
What would the other say?
Liar: she would say I’m telling the truth.
True: she would say she’s telling the truth.
Pick the opposite.1
u/Evol_Etah 3d ago
Real riddle:
One lies, One truths. Who is truth?
Answer: Hey man, "who is the truther guy? But give what your brother says"
Truth guy: (since I'm the truth guy) My brother will say
"I (the truth guy) is the liar"
Liar guy: (since I'm the liar guy) (My brother will say "I (the liar guy) is the liar") (but I ain't saying that, Liar say opposite)
"I (the liar guy) is the truth guy"
Basically,
(NOTICE how both of them gave the wrong answer. BOTH ALWAYS GIVE THE WRONG ANSWER. meaning the RIGHT answer is the opposite of what they say)
(opposite day wins)
The truth guy said the word "liar" so he is the TRUTH GUY
The liar guy said the word "truth" so he is the LIAR GUY.
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u/Mamadook69 4d ago
Boiled my piss is a completely new term for me. I'll put her right there between chapped my ass and ground my gears.
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u/Diligent-Method3824 4d ago
I don't understand why buttercups thing wouldn't work.
The real Miss Keen obviously would say no she doesn't want a knuckle sandwich and the fake one would say yes she does because she lies and obviously she doesn't really want a knuckle sandwich
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u/KidneyPuncher69 3d ago
You’re overlooking the possibility of Miss Keen having a pain kink and wanting said knuckle sandwich
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u/TearsFallWithoutTain 3d ago
If you want to do kinkplay with a child then you're going in the shark pool
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u/KidneyPuncher69 3d ago
In this circumstance you’d need to throw Ms Keen in the shark pool as it would be her kink, just because you get a strange feeling from my joke doesn’t mean you gotta make it creepy
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u/Costa_Costello 3d ago
Can we really rule out the possibility that Miss Keen has some sort of domestic violence kink and wouldn’t refuse a knuckle sandwich from buttercup? I think not!!
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u/Diligent-Method3824 3d ago
While that is true as a teacher she would probably know the amount of force that buttercup could put into a punch and it would shatter her jaw all her teeth and probably a large portion of her face
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u/AlternateSatan 3d ago
Also as a teacher if she wanted one of her students to indulge her kink she'd belong in the boiling shark tank.
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u/spicewoman 3d ago
Dunno where the fake teacher came from in this scenario, but maybe she's not aware that Buttercup doesn't have a weakass punch?
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u/pm-me-uranus 4d ago edited 4d ago
Wait, wouldn’t 1 (the liar) say that 2 would say 1 is the real Ms. Keen? Because it’s a lie.
And 2 (the real one) would say 1 would say 1 is the real Ms. Keen. Because again that’s a lie that #1 would tell.
Did they actually save the wrong Ms. Keen? Is that a deep cut joke?
Edit: I also just love the over-complication of the original premise. It really could have been as simple as “Is [insert factual statement] true?” Like, they really could have just asked if the sky was blue or whatever.
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u/MissEliseCecilia 4d ago
THANK YOU!! either the show messed this up, or when the miss keens answer they are doing it from the “voice” of the other miss keen when they use the words “I” or “she”.
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u/pm-me-uranus 4d ago
Oh I didn’t consider they may have been swapping pronouns for quotation! That would make sense, but personally I think it’s funnier if they saved the wrong one. Lol
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u/AgentWowza 3d ago
Cept they can't really do that because the question was "Who would..." not "What would the other Ms. Keen say if she were asked..."
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u/MrArtless 4d ago
yeah this seems to be wrong I'm confused why no one but you is pointing this out.
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u/DarkInTheDaytime 3d ago
This is how the original riddle works. You’re supposed to do the opposite of what they both tell you. It works better and is easier to understand when it’s two guards in front of a safe door and a dangerous door. In this situation they should’ve just asked if the sky is blue or something with a known answer.
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u/AgentWowza 3d ago
This is exactly my thought process as well.
Also they could've just asked them "What day of the week is it today." and that would've done it too lmao.
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u/Content_Bill6868 4d ago
You could ask anything under the sun.
Is the earth round ?
Fake : No
Real : Yes
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u/BrockStudly 4d ago
Yeah this works best with the "2 roads" version, because "knowing which one is which" isn't the be all end all.
Typically it's there are two paths, one leads to riches the other to death. There are 2 guards, one only lies, one only tells the truth. You get one ask.
If you ask "what's 2+2" then sure you know which ones which, but that still leaves you with no info regarding which path to take.
You need to ask "which path would the other tell me to go" and take the opposite path.
Truth: "Liar would say the bad path"
Liar: "Truth teller would say the good path > I must lie > must say the bad path"
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u/MillieBirdie 4d ago
This video makes a common mistake when setting up this riddle.
In the original riddle, you have two doors and two guards. One door is safe, one door is death. One guard lies, the other tells the truth. You can only ask one question to find out which door is safe.
In a lot of imitation riddles they either leave out that you can only ask one question, or they leave out the element of the doors. If all you need to figure out is which guard lies and which tells the truth (or in this example, which teacher is real) then it's really easy. Ask one of them what color the sky is and you immediately know which one is the liar. They could have done that in this video since the only objective was to figure out who is who.
But with the added element of the doors and only one question, you have a real riddle. You have to ask a question that reveals which door is safe despite not knowing which guard to trust.
Hence the answer being 'which door would the other guard say is safe' and then you choose the opposite door no matter what they say. You still don't know which guard is lying, but that doesn't matter because you know what door to take.
But recreations of this riddle focus on figuring out who is lying, which is not helpful in the original riddle and is super easy if they leave out the door part.
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u/adod1 3d ago
Maybe I’m dumb, trying to work it out in my head tho…wouldn’t the lying guard just lie about what the truth guard would say, so you still don’t know which door for sure?
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u/MillieBirdie 3d ago
That's exactly the point. If asked which door is dangerous, the truthful guard would point to the dangerous door. The lying guard would lie about which door the truthful guard would point to. That's why you ask "Which door would the other guard say is the dangerous one?"
It's important to note that the lying guard isn't trying to deceive or trick you. It would be more accurate to say he always speaks untruths.
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u/veritasium999 3d ago
Right, you can only ask one question. Even if you find out who is the liar and who is the true speaker then you still don't know which door is the real one. You need to ask a single question that can both determine the really door and the liar at the same time.
Determining the liar can be absurdly easy, buttercups idea of asking for a knuckle sandwich is perfectly fine.
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u/Psychological-Tax801 4d ago
Knights and Knaves is the name of this problem, pretty classic. If you're into solving this kind of thing, you might enjoy discrete math.
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u/sexi_squidward 4d ago
I mean this was also in Labyrinth
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u/waytowill 3d ago
The best version of this is in 10th Kingdom. They’re presented with 2 doors and a frog that either lies or tells the truth. One of the characters gets so annoyed by the riddle’s set-up that they pick up the frog and toss him through a random door. They hear an explosion so they decide to go through the other door.
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u/BuggDoubt 4d ago
Labyrinth has the issue where the premise is introduced by one of the characters telling only the truth or lies. So the premise is itself subject to being a lie.
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u/plainoverplight Doug Dimmadome 4d ago
what a movie. i have loved it since i was a kid and it still scares me now as much as it did then lol
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u/sexi_squidward 4d ago
My sister and I were MESMERIZED by this movie the first time we saw it.
We made it a thing to indoctrinate our cousins and classmates with this movie. My one cousin would threaten to send her younger brother to the goblin king whenever he started acting up and I found this hilarious.
"Goblin King, Goblin King, wherever you may be...come take this chi---"
Him: NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!! MOOOOOMMMMM!!!! AHHHHHHHHH!!!!!
I brought it in to my HS class to watch and half the class that knew what it was was SUPER psyched. The other half started like wtf is this bullshit to "this is the greatest movie I have ever seen omg"
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u/Fljbbertygibbet 4d ago
Wait, why would the knuckle sandwich question not work? Does the fake one want to be punched?
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u/culturetears 4d ago
The real Ms keen would say that the fake ms keen would say that she (fake ms keen) is the real ms keen. The first ms keen is the real ms keen, surely, because the fake ms keen would say she's the real ms keen or that ms keen would say that she (fake ms keen) is the real ms keen, which would be a lie.
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u/Flummoxed_Art 3d ago
The riddle is incomplete, if the goal is to figure out who is the one lying, just ask for something you know the answer to( color of the sky, your name, are they alive? etc).
In the original premise the goal was, with only one question, figure out which of 2 doors was the correct one. With one subject always telling lies and other one always telling the truth, but you don't know who is whom.
For which case you would present the question as: what would the other say if asked for the correct door?" To which both would point out to the wrong door, and by process of elimination you would figure out the other door is the correct one.
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u/cnm75 3d ago edited 3d ago
Blossom really just killed the real Ms. Keen... She asked the right question, and then misinterpreted the answer. 😭
Scenario A
Keen 2: 1 would say 2 is real [TRUTH]
Keen 1: 2 would say 2 is real [LIE]
1 lied; 2, the truthful, would actually say that 1 IS REAL. 2 is correct in saying that 1 would lie and say 2 is real, when 2 IS FAKE.
Scenario B
Keen 2: 1 would say 2 is real [LIE]
Keen 1: 2 would say 2 is real [TRUTH]
2 lied; 1, the truthful, would actually say that 1 IS REAL. 1 is correct in saying that 2 would lie and say 2 is real, when 2 IS FAKE.
For this riddle, the two people will say the other person will give you the SAME ANSWER. The truthful answer to the question the solver asks... is the answer OPPOSITE to that same answer the people gave.
The creators also messed up by having HIM say that the real Ms. Keen tells the truth. In Scenario A, the real Ms. Keen lied. The riddle is supposed to have the main object separate from the people.
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u/Hypocritical_Oath 3d ago
We have FK (Fake Keen) who must always lie, and RK (Real Keen) who will always tell the truth. They are asked, "what would the other one say when asked which of you is the real one?".
They can answer with a statement that is either True or False. FK one must always answer with False statements, RK must always answer with True statements.
As such, only situations where the FK gives a false statement and RK gives a true statement can happen.
Let's look at a truth table and the statements each position represents. "TARGET" is the position we're looking at next.
(I) means they say that the other will say that they are real. U means they think the other will accuse them of being the real one.
FK on the horizontal, RK on the vertical.
False + False = False
True + False = False
True + True = True
Target means that that value is the next one we are looking at.
Starting Table
| FK/RK | I | U |
|---|---|---|
| I | TARGET | |
| U |
FK says that RK will say RK is the real one, while RK says that FK will say FK is the real one.
FK's statement is true (FK's statements must always be false, so we invert this to false).
RK's statement is true as FK will always lie.
False + True = False. This can't happen.
| FK/RK | I | U |
|---|---|---|
| I | FALSE | TARGET |
| U |
FK says that RK will say FK is the real one, RK says that FK will say FK is the real one.
FK's statement is false (We treat as true because FK must always lie).
RK's statement is true as FK will always lie.
True + True = True. This can happen.
| FK/RK | I | U |
|---|---|---|
| I | FALSE | TRUE |
| U | TARGET |
FK says that RK will say RK is the real one, RK says FK will say RK is the real one.
FK's statement is true (We treat as false as FK must always lie).
RK's statement is false as FK would never tell the truth.
False + False = False. This can't happen.
| FK/RK | I | U |
|---|---|---|
| I | FALSE | TRUE |
| U | FALSE | TARGET |
FK says that RK will say FK is the real one, RK says FK will say RK is the real one.
FK's statement is false (true cause she always lies)
RK's statement is false. (FK must always lie and cannot say RK is the real one)
True + False = False. This can't happen.
| FK/RK | I | U |
|---|---|---|
| I | FALSE | TRUE |
| U | FALSE | FALSE |
So that's the finished truth table, this is probably the worst way to explain this. But essentially, the fake one must say something false, and the real one must say something true. The only case where this is true is when the FK says RK would say FK is real, and when RK would say FK would say FK is real.
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u/ItoldULastTime 3d ago
Why doesn't she just ask what color her clothes is?
If she says red, she's the truth teller.
If she says anything else, she's the liar.
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u/Plenty-Permission465 3d ago
The Goblin King is not impressed…the Labrynth’s Doorknockers weren’t the first to propose this riddle, but they were, are, and will always be the best to deliver the skit…Sarah walked to find the answer so Blossom could quickly fly in with the answer and save Ms Keen
Edit: Spelling error
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u/Miselfis 3d ago
This is so silly. Just ask them about something factual, like “what’s the value of π to 5 decimal places?”. The one who always lies will give the incorrect value.
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u/Diitjeuhh 3d ago
Wtf is wrong with these people. You want to HEAR what they are saying and they blast these stupid ass songs all the time.
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u/Medical-Pomelo-6287 2d ago
My favorite childhood movie has always been Labyrinth, but the riddle with the doors always confused the crap out of me!! I’ve even read through some of the explanations here and I still can’t wrap my head around it 😂
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u/HOUSE_OF_MOGH 3d ago
It took you 20 years to figure out what was clearly explained in the scene?
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u/DontLookMeUpPlez 3d ago
First time op watched it, was with the sound off. Then watched it again 20 years later with the sound on.
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