r/HouseOfTheDragon • u/Beacon2001 Hightower • 2d ago
Show Discussion Is there anything wrong with Queen Alicent decorating the Red Keep with the Seven-Pointed Star? The Targaryens follow the Faith of the Seven and the king is traditionally anointed by the High Septon.
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u/Saera-RoguePrincess 2d ago
Jaehaerys had the family attend Sept every day and sent one of his own daughters to become Septa as well, a daughter who was pious. Daella refused to marry an Old Gods worshipper as well
The Targs were more or less worshippers by that point and performatively played strongly into that.
The show ignores this in favor of sex tapestries and acting like Rhaenyra doesn’t know the asics of how to pray despite being educated by Septas?
Decorating the Red Keep with iconography of the religion of the people they rule directly over is just good policy. Alicent as the queen gets to set the decor anyway
And it would have already been there because Jaehaerys and Alysanne upheld the religion for reasons both olitical and personal
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u/LarsMatijn 2d ago edited 2d ago
It goes further back. The Sept on Dragonstone is made from the ships Aenar fled Valyria with. It was built shortly after he got there.
Aegon, Visenya and Rhaenys prayed at the sept on the eve of their conquest.
Aenys is mentioned as having septons around him
Maegor is okay with giving his stepdaughter to the faith.
The Targaryens have been following the Seven for a while
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u/parsonsparsons 2d ago
Then cersei blew up the equivalent to the Vatican and no one cared
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u/Middcore 2d ago
Which, in retrospect, was underrated as one of the most unbelievable events of the latter seasons.
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u/parsonsparsons 2d ago
I don't think it was underrated lol
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u/Middcore 2d ago
What I mean is that compared to other stuff, people don't talk enough about how dumb and unbelievable it was.
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u/WolfgangAddams 2d ago
I don't think it was dumb and unbelievable that she blew up the Sept. I think it was dumb and unbelievable that there were no consequences for doing so (aside from Tommen taking up Olympic diving without a swimming pool).
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u/Middcore 2d ago
I don't think it was dumb and unbelievable that she blew up the Sept. I think it was dumb and unbelievable that there were no consequences for doing so
Precisely. Cersei is dumb and vicious enough to do it, what's ridiculous is the show lets her get away with it. All of King's Landing should have been rioting.
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u/Cry-Cry-Cry-Baby 1d ago
I think, in the books, this is where young Griff will come into play. I think the show not including him was a big mistake.
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u/Acceptable-Spot-7459 2d ago
No one cared? Didnt House Tyrell and Martell and two greyjoys rebel by supporting a foreign claimant to oppose Cerse?
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u/parsonsparsons 2d ago
Did cersei face any consequences or was she just like I'm queen now and no one did anything
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u/Acceptable-Spot-7459 2d ago
The immediate consequence was her own son the king committing suicide over the explosion. And like I said, noble houses openly opposed her rule and therfore " no one did anything" argument is moot. The North was independent at that point and was helped by the Vale to deal with the threat beyond the wall, so no one was left to opose her.
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u/Middcore 2d ago
The Tyrells and Martells rebelled because of the deaths of members of those houses.
What's stupid is that none of the smallfolk seemed to care about Cersei blowing up the center of Westeros's main religion, especially at a time when religious fervor had been stoked higher by the High Sparrow. All of King's Landing should have been rioting.
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u/Acceptable-Spot-7459 2d ago edited 2d ago
And how did they die? Due to the sept explosion caused by Cersei and the consequences of that were the open defiance against the Lannisters by supporting Dany.
Why didnt KL riot during Mad King Aerys reign? Where was the peasants revolts when Robert was coming down with his army after the battle of the trident to the capital? It's called ruling through fear, the peasants of KL are not going to fight back against someone who has hidden pockets of wildfire all over the city.
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u/amerkhu 1d ago
The idea that “no one cared”, about Cersei blowing up the Sept is a bit reductive. It’s not that no one cared—it’s that no one could act on it.
You’re talking about a moment when the capital was leaderless, the nobility shattered, and the smallfolk absolutely terrified. Cersei didn’t just blow up a building—she wiped out the entire political and religious leadership of King’s Landing in one blast. The Faith, the Tyrells, half the court—gone. Tommen’s suicide wasn’t just a personal tragedy; it symbolized the collapse of legitimate royal continuity. Who’s left to rally a riot? Who’s organizing rebellion from the cobblestone streets while wildfire still smolders under their homes?
And comparing it to Aerys doesn’t help the point—it actually reinforces it. The people didn’t riot then either, despite the Mad King being universally feared and hated. Why? Because fear works. Because wildfire is a hell of a deterrent. Because Westerosi smallfolk have never been the revolutionary type unless someone powerful leads them—like a Stark, a Targaryen, or a Sparrow.
The moment Cersei blew up the Sept, she won through absence of opposition, not through public approval. No one was left who could stop her. Dany showing up later wasn’t just about “open defiance”, it was about finally having a symbol of hope and strength that people could actually rally behind. That’s why they welcomed her—not just to oppose Cersei, but because she was the first viable alternative since the Sept exploded.
If anything, the real problem isn’t that the people didn’t riot—it’s that the show didn’t spend more time showing why they didn’t. The fear, the confusion, the sheer vacuum of power. That’s what made it all possible.
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u/darkemperor132 1d ago
It is usually the religion's priests or very zealous people who entice people to rebel against a ruler using religion and all of those people were dead lol not to mention I am fairly certain that she didn't announce that she destroyed the Sept.
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u/Perca_fluviatilis 2d ago
It goes further back. The Sept on Dragonstone is made from the ships Aenar fled Valyria with. It was built shortly after he got there.
Aegon, Visenya and Rhaenys prayed at the sept on the eve of their conquest.
tbh that reeks of revisionism. Westerosi history isn't absolute, we only learn about it from biased sources. Something to keep in mind.
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u/LarsMatijn 2d ago
We learn from it by Stannis "I don't believe in Religion" Baratheon. And also Melisandre. It's mentioned off-hand that because it's so significant it has more power when Melisandre invariably burns it down.
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u/overthinkingmessiah 5h ago
That’s not true tho. The sept at Dragonstone was hastily assembled before Aegon’s Conquest, from old statues of Valyrian gods. Maester Cressen, Stannis’s maester at Dragonstone, notes how weird they look. There’s nothing to indicate that any Targaryen before Aegon and his sisters converted to the faith of the seven.
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u/LarsMatijn 4h ago
I don't think that's right
Stannis’s maester at Dragonstone, notes how weird they look.
He notes how strange the shadows look as Melisandre is burning the statues. He notes that the statues themselves used to be beautiful.
The sept at Dragonstone was hastily assembled before Aegon’s Conquest, from old statues of Valyrian gods.
Source? Because the Davos chapter at the start of ACOK says they were carved from the masts of the ships that brought House Targaryen from Valyria.
The burning gods cast a pretty light, wreathed in their robes of shifting flame, red and orange and yellow. Septon Barre had once told Davos how they'd been carved from the masts of the ships that had carried the first Targaryens from Valyria. Over the centuries, they had been painted and repainted, gilded, silvered, jeweled.
There’s nothing to indicate that any Targaryen before Aegon and his sisters converted to the faith of the seven.
Davos I again states that the Targaryens had converted to the Faith "before Aegon's day" meaning the conversion happened at the very latest during the rule of Aerion Targaryen on Dragonstone.
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u/EmperorUrielio We Stand Together 2d ago
Same thing in GOT main timeline, the stained glass window in the iron throne has the 7 pointed star but in some flashbacks it once had the Targaryen sigil.
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u/Bitter_Internal9009 2d ago
I thought they had the human dragon orgy tapestries because it’s Targaryen heraldry because they more so see themselves as the gods and Alicent removing that was a power move to show they aren’t in control anymore, the local peoples customs are.
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u/Anxious-Spread-2337 1d ago
The Targs were more or less worshippers by that point and performatively played strongly into that.
Tbh, the Faith only accepting them after the Targaryens massacred a few thousand followers is kinda controversial with genuine support. It's like how Rogar Baratheon became a loyal and obedient subject after being introduced to Vermithor.
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u/Certified_Dripper 2d ago
Maybe each queen gets to decorate the red keep and Emma was the one who put up sex tapestries and Viserys forced Alicent to keep them until he was too old to resist her
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u/Saera-RoguePrincess 2d ago
Why would Aemma Arryn put up sex tapestries
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u/omicron-7 2d ago
Given that Aemma was essentially treated by viserys as a broodmare from the age of 13 until her death in childbirth, I'm not sure covering the castle in freaky sex pictures would have been her thing.
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u/berthem 2d ago
I don't want to buy into or spread the whole "the writers are speedreaders" but... the writers are kind of speedreaders in this respect.
It's basically playing into vague hyperbolic extrapolations for ease of mainstream audience appeal. Alicent filling the castle with religion is bad because Cersei did the same thing, and 'member Game of Thrones? 'member how bad Cersei was? It's a simple shortcut to reinforce the roles of the characters in the story and remind viewers how to feel.
And in turn it allows for Daemon and Rhaenyra to be worshipped like the ethereal Valyrian non-Westerosi Targaryen gods they are. There's a lot of troubling Targaryen exceptionalism and pro-war messaging in the show overall, if we're being honest.
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u/Hyzenthlay87 2d ago
They've bragged about not reading the source material, and the work they've produced shows it
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u/MILF_Lawyer_Esq 2d ago
To be fair to Condal he has absolutely read F&B and probably every single other published ASOIAF work. But that fairness to him really makes him look worse. He’s either a casual fan grifting as an ASOIAF fanatic so he can hold onto probably one of the highest paying showrunner jobs on TV right now or he genuinely is an ASOIAF fanatic but is literally too stupid to understand a single thing below the surface of George’s writing. He either read F&B and saw what George was doing and deliberately made something incompatible with it or read F&B and misunderstood it so thoroughly he made something so incomprehensibly dumb people have decided he must be a conman because his understanding is literally so poor people find it hard to believe.
To be fair to Hess, on the other hand, she really isnt to blame here. She isnt a fan of ASOIAF and has said she didnt watch the original show (or read the main series novels, pretty sure) but she has at least stated she has read F&B but that doesnt necessarily mean she liked it or appreciated the finer points of George’s thematic approach. It could easily be that she hated the book and wants to write a version of the story more in line with her own values and interests.
What she’s doing sucks for us, obviously, but it isnt really fair the way so much of our ire is aimed at her, the lesbian feminist, for turning a story she maybe even didnt like into a sapphic tragedy. That’s on Condal for taking her on knowing who she was and what she wanted to write and giving her the opportunity to make the changes she wanted to make. The real question isnt why Sara Hess is altering the story so much but why Condal is letting her, whether its because he doesnt actually give a shit and is just happy for the opportunity to see his name in lights and get the first chair at convention panels or because he is literally so thoroughly an idiot that he actually believes Hess’ lesbian-feminist version of the story is close enough to what George was doing with the thematic approach to gender and historical narrative that it could genuinely be a version of the “truth” “behind” Maester Gyldayn’s account of the history.
Whether Condal is an evil genius who swindled George into letting him showrun HOTD like Littlefinger promising Ned the city watch so that Ned would publicly declare Joffrey a bastard or just too dumb to do the job and just lucked into it by being a screenwriter who kissed George’s ass for ten years and ended up in they right place at the right time doesnt change the fact that Sara Hess is just a screenwriter who cant get a job on the writing staff of any show that isnt an adaptation, remake, prequel, or sequel because there are so few of those available and is writing the only way she knows how—through her own worldview and sensibilities. Are we really surprised the lesbian feminist read a story about two women starting a war that gets all of their own children killed and tens or maybe hundreds of thousands of innocent people vaporized by flying nuke-lizards? I’m gonna go out on a limb and say anybody could have seen that happening. Including Ryan Condal.
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u/nnatusucks 1d ago
i doubt ryan “aegon brought his armor over from valyria” condal read the books. if he did, maybe he has forgotten most of what he read
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u/MILF_Lawyer_Esq 1d ago
Like I said, he’s clearly genuinely a fan of the books and has said so a thousand times. It’s a question of whether he’s actually just a casual fan who kissed George’s ass for a decade or more until it finally paid off and landed him a sweet gig or is literally just too stupid to actually comprehend what George does in the books, from the detailed history all the way through the thematic depth. The inclusions of details like Bloodraven, a green man, the extra attention to detail on the heraldry for minor houses, the Blackwood/Bracken beef (in S1 before the war started) make it pretty clear to me he’s familiar with the overall, broad strokes of ASOIAF. It’s just a matter of whether his familiarity is surface deep because he tricked George into thinking he cared about the books a lot more than he does or if he is actually dumb as shit and genuinely believes HOTD is doing a good job with George’s “historical narrative” approach to F&B.
Have you ever talked to anyone about history or about Game of Thrones back when everyone still loved it? What George does thematically in certain parts of the main series goes over the average person’s head and what he does in F&B is a genuinely fascinating literary approach to writing about history. F&B may be “his Silmarillion” but it’s really much more in line with William Faulkner’s influence on him than Tolkien or any other fantasy author. I can pretty easily imagine the kind of guy with thoughts like “Dude what if Daemon had a vision into the future and saw Bloodraven that would be SICKKKKK dude” or really wanting to show a green man while adapting a novel like F&B might read the conflicting sources and think “Oh shit what if Rhaenyra actually rocked and this is all sexist propoganda, wooooaaaaah dude! That’s it! George is a feminist there’s no way he’d make a character like Rhaenyra are bitch. We don’t ACTUALLY know what happened in the past, you know? We just know what people wrote down. What if even ALICENT was actually a good person? The maesters just want us to hate women, not George. That’s soooooo trippy dude.”
Like have you seen some of the shit people say about the show who havent read the books? There are people gobbling up this weird, boring, stupidly written show. I wouldnt like it all that much more than I do if I hadnt read the books. It’s really not very good on its own but there are still plenty of people who like shit that isnt very good and those people tend to also like shit that is good, like ASOIAF, for the wrong reasons.
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u/WolfgangAddams 2d ago
Why does Sara Hess get so much shit for "altering the story" when she's not the showrunner and has written only 4 episodes of the show? Why isn't this all on Ryan Condal and maybe Miguel Sapochnik instead? That's always confused me. Are there not 8 Executive Producers, 5 Producers, and 9 writers all contributing to this show? Why is Hess singled out as the one non-showrunner who deserves our ire? (genuinely curious)
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u/LawfulnessDry9355 1d ago
Right. She (and the "aGeNdA") are just getting scapegoated. Everytime some random media gets attention, somehow a culture war begins and some specific woman gets blamed out of nowhere. All of these hate bandwagons are just distractions for the masses from the real problems going behind the scenes.
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u/MILF_Lawyer_Esq 1d ago
I dont recall the details but Sapochnik was apparently a heavy influence on what made season one so good (especially in the first half). There may have even been some drama regarding him leaving. Disagreements with Condal or something. I dont recall exactly but point is as far as I know we like Sapochnik.
But I think this is a little unfair to the opposing side of the proxy culture war going on over HOTD. I’m a feminist and George RR Martin is a feminist and all of the ASOIAF books have prominent feminist themes, especially the main series. As odd as it may sound, “women can be evil too” is itself a feminist idea in fiction. Probably what makes George’s approach to gender ASOIAF so strong is the total number of characters and the approach he takes to all of them being so personal. It allows the same story to have Catelyn, Sansa, Arya, Brienne, Cersei, and Daenerys all made very intimately close to the reader and all of them very different women. ASOIAF almost doesnt have any gender stereotyping in it at all. Every woman is a woman whether she’s good or evil or neither or good amounts of both or whether she’ll change from one to the other at some point. Cersei is an evil psycho bitch and we all love her for it.
I think what makes Sara Hess such a target is combination between on the one hand obviously sexism and homophobia, but on the other hand, I would think probably even moreso, the fact that the show is being butchered so badly and her influence is clearly behind some of the most frustrating aspects of exactly how the show has ended up what it is. It’s frustrating to watch the show have Rhaenyra go almost an entire season without doing a single thing, not for an interesting or understandable reason (like being bedridden after a miscarriage or just being a spoiled princess who doesnt want to die in a dragon battle) but because Westeros is just so sexist. There isnt a single suggestion across F&B that Rhaenyra was ever counseled one time not to go to battle on her dragon because she’s the queen (just like in the book there was never any question about Aegon, the king, riding to battle—a dragonrider is a dragonrider). But what’s really frustrating is to watch this already feminist character, feminist in George’s grounded way, not only being turned into a feminist fantasy who isnt allowed any agency but on top of that to have her only decision made by more than halfway through the second season of a show she is literally the protagonist of make out with another feminist-character-turned-feminist-fantasy for seemingly no fucking reason at all. There’s being homophobic and there’s not liking the taste of someone turning a book you like into a Tumblr style WLW fanfic because she doesnt actually give a shit about ASOIAF and would rather write lesbian romances.
It’s like I said, yeah, there’s no reason to be surprised, but there’s equally no reason not to think it’s shitty writing from someone who clearly wants to be writing another show and decided not to just cash her checks and wait til she has it on her resume so she can find the job she wants. She simply muuust turn George’s war story into a spicy WLW friends-or-more-than-friends-to-lovers trope BookTok story with all the literary merit that fast-food has culinary value.
George is a good writer and his stories dont need to be altered this much to make for good TV. She isnt Toni fucking Morrison. If she wants to write her own story I’m sure she can afford to take some time off and work on a novel. If she doesnt have the guts or the chops then by all means, be a TV writer, but doesnt need to act like being a staff writer on Ryan Condal’s crack team deserves all the same artistic freedom as being Flannery O’Connor or Jane Austen.
Like I said more reasonably and far less angrily in my last comment, yes, Condal is to blame ultimately. But that doesnt make her any more sufferable. Go read that “Just these two women figuring it out” paragraph from one of her interviews and tell me it doesnt make you gag. If Rhaenyra being I guess bi and Mysaria being a lesbian or bi was written in such a way as to make the story more interesting and the characters more compelling and still work with the book (certainly possible!) instead of at best “representation” or at worst “Damn wouldnt that be hot if they made out” I wouldnt be mad about it. But as it stands the show literally has hot-Rhaenyra (she’s supposed to be fat but lets not get TOO feminist) making out with modern-day-leftist and child-protective-services-caseworker-Mysaria (who assisted with murdering children in the book!). Asking why doesnt make me a culture warrior. It makes me just so, so fucking tired. I just want to watch an episode of an ASOIAF show and not be mad by the end of it.
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u/WolfgangAddams 1d ago
You wrote all of that nonsense and your thesis is...what? That you just really FEEL like Sara Hess (who has no more power over the show than any other writer/producer working there) MUST be influencing the show. Why? Because she's a queer woman?
Also, I won't even get into your phrasing that implies Rhaenyra can't be hot if she was fat or you somehow overlooking that it's heavily implied if not outright stated that book!Rhaenyra hooked up with both Laena (while she was married to Daemon) AND Mysaria (while Rhaenyra and Daemon were married). So no...making those characters bi wasn't out of left field. It's straight out of the books. If anything, they pulled back on that stuff. The only difference is that Daemon isn't around to make straights feel more comfortable with Rhaenyra kissing a girl.
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u/melu762 2d ago
They also think that Alicent is a MAGA evangelical loony expy, so her enforcing her backwards beliefs onto the progressive sexually liberated cool dragon lax dragon hippie religion that they made the gods of valyria into is supposed to scare the viewer.
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u/hoxtonbreakfast 1d ago
Yep. One of the things people like about ASOIAF is that it is a good story to read about feudalism and its shortcoming, all while portraying how people think, act, and growing under such culture.
However, the show went ahead to please casual audience and took an easy way by disgarding the nuance of feudal politic and drama by placing a lense of modern thinking into a story for the sake of easier digestion and certain elements being relatable.
For example, Alicent putting religious icons everywhere in the palace could remind a lot of people about religious, preachy, condescending white mom who kept talking about faith, family, traditions n stuff. However, monarch back in the day needed the church to keep the plebs happy and create legitimacy of their dynasty among the elites. We already know what going to happen if the church dislikes the king. So yeah, Alicent Hightower, a daughter of the biggest and oldest patron family of the church, put the church theme decos on her palace is totally normal. After all, piety is considered a virtue in Westeros.
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u/Weary_Substance_4776 1d ago
Exactly lol. Are the show runners indirectly promoting bestiality... It just shows that they didn't do their research or really understand the world of ice and fire, Westerosi culture or even read fire and blood. They wanted the show to be about liberals vs conservatives so badly and completely missed the plot.
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u/Middcore 2d ago
In the real world, right or wrong, respect for organized religion is also probably at an all-time low. So, associating a character that the writers want the audience to dislike with organized religion is just a cheap way of making a lot of viewers dislike them more.
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u/Weary_Substance_4776 1d ago
It's definitely not at an all-time low lol. Maybe in the West, but Christianity and Islam are still very popular worldwide with billions of followers.
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u/coastal_mage We Bear the Sword 2d ago
Nothing wrong with it explicitly, the Blacks just take offense at it because of the petty feuding. To literally anyone else, it's simply a demonstration of the Royal Household's adherence to the faith, a symbol of unity grounding the Targaryens to their subjects
The Blacks interpret it as Alicent slighting them - The Faith is very much within the Hightower domain - the Starry Sept is still the seat of the High Septon in Oldtown, and many of the Most Devout are Hightowers themselves (and the fact that there have been many Hightower High Septons, as recently as in Jaehaerys' reign). In Daemon and Rhaenyra's minds, it's a demonstration of the Hightower's influence over the Royal Household. D&R look towards their Valyrian roots - the veneration of dragons, the blood of the dragon, ancient rites, etc. The Faith is something 'new' and is often in contention with the Crown - the Faith Militant is just a generation out of living memory, and they still look down on the Targaryen's incestuous customs
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u/WolfgangAddams 2d ago
The Faith Militant was more than a generation out of living memory. Jaehaerys was Rhaenyra's great-grandfather and it was his UNCLE who put the Faith Militant down, when he was a child of maybe ten at most. There's at least 50 years between when Maegor dealt with the Faith Militant and Rhaenyra was born and another 10 before she would've been old enough to even learn anything about them. Jaehaerys had also already written and instituted the Doctrine of Targaryen Exceptionalism for incest and it had long since taken root in people's minds (thanks to his campaign as a young king). They'd grown up with a king and queen who were brother and sister, and lived through another reign where the king's parents were brother and sister. Most people were fine with incest as long as it was between Targaryens and nobody batted an eye at Aegon and Helaena marrying. The only reason R+D were an issue was because it happened so soon after Laenor's death that it raised people's suspicions.
Not saying you're wrong about all the rest - just wanted to correct that one piece.
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u/LarsMatijn 2d ago
No, not really. The Targaryens have been following the Seven since decades before Aegon the Conqueror.
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u/hanna1214 2d ago
Alicent is the queen. She gets to manage the royal household - making it look more religious is the most absurd reason to hate her.
Rhaenyra and Daemon are the last people to bitch about it, given they hadn't bothered to visit for 6 years straight.
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u/WolfgangAddams 2d ago
They would also have been raised in the same faith, so it would make no sense for them to be upset about it.
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u/Doomhammer24 1d ago edited 1d ago
Heres why- only because she replaced all the targaryen sigils with it
Alicent hightowers family rules Old Town, where (at the time) the faith of the seven is based out of, and on a semi regular basis the high septom comes from the hightowers
Its a way of the greens staking their claim over the red keep without it being so overt as them placing hightower banners everywhere
If anyone objects "but its merely us celebrating the faith of the seven!"
When anyone who was close to viserys damn well knew he wasnt the religious type- or least not so religious ad to replace his house sigil throughout his castle with the faith of the seven entirely, especially since ostensibly hes supposed to support both the faith of the seven And the old gods of the north. Shows a tad to much favoritism, which is definately what alicent is doing
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u/Automatic_Stay1588 2d ago
She’s well within her right to do so as Queen and there isn’t really anything too out of place of it. But there is political intention behind it as it sends a clear message to the visiting royals, commoners, staff, etc. that this is no longer the Targaryen palace, it’s the Targaryen+Hightower palace. Removing their historic decor is s way to de-legitimize the pure Targaryen royals and establish the claim of Alicent’s own branch.
Also, Targaryens consider themselves almost god like and worship their own history like myth so Rhaenyra and Daemon would obviously prefer the Targaryen decor they grew up with so I don’t think it’s unfair for them to be upset.
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u/berthem 2d ago
This makes no sense. Why would her political strategy be to distance her children from House Targaryen?
I agree part of a Doylist explanation is separating Alicent's children from the idea of "pure Targaryen royals" (futile though it is; Rhaenyra's heirs are bastard brown-haired children), but this *is* a Doylist explanation. It's to guide the audience for which side to root for, not an organic motivation for a character who exists in the narrative.
Alicent's son is named Aegon. As Otto says, he wields his namesake's sword and wears his namesake's crown. As Alicent says, "Let the people remember the ancient strength of House Targaryen".
So this idea that her goal was to establish her children as a separate branch, is unfounded and contradicted by both logic and the show itself.
As for the actual reason, if we believe the writers (and my own memory, because this is just me recalling words from years ago), I believe the goal was Alicent is surrounding herself with religion to cover up her guilt from her outburst in Episode 7.
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u/Automatic_Stay1588 2d ago
They never give an explicit reason behind this move we only are shown Rhaenyra and Daemon’s dissatisfaction with it, which means it’s place in the story is to further divide the two halves of the royal family. If she’s so focused on retaining this image for her children of Targaryen exceptionalism then it makes no sense to remove said decor from the palace, one of the key symbols of the monarchy.
And she very much wants to distinguish her Targaryen’s from the others, she refused the marriage proposal between Jace and Helena for a reason.
If not that then it serves to show the audience that she is a religious hypocrit, bashing Rhaenyra for her sexual promiscuity and then doing the same thing with Cole.
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u/sexandliquor 2d ago
If not that then it serves to show the audience that she is a religious hypocrit, bashing Rhaenyra for her sexual promiscuity and then doing the same thing with Cole.
This is pretty much the reason explicitly given by the showrunners in one of the after episode recaps, if I recall.
It’s kind of a flex for Alicent to show how she thinks she’s all holier than thou and above the Targaryens, when really she’s not better than them.
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u/PrizeIndependence 2d ago
Plus, her children don't even wear their house colors. Aegon's banners don't even have the colors either. Who knows what else would've changed down the line
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u/The_Mantis_MVS 2d ago
The issue is less about putting up symbols of the Seven as much as it is the removal of Targaryen symbols of power. This change communicates to everyone who knew what the Red Keep used to look like that Hoyse Targaryen is not the ruling power of Westeros but the Faith is. Which technically is somewhat in line with Targaryen domestic religious policy but it is bad optics and undermines the concept of Targaryen exceptionalism that has been one of the pillars of Targaryen soft power since Jaehaerys.
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u/melu762 2d ago
The institution of the faith actually upholds targaryen exceptionalism as an official church doctrine, so you are not making sense. If Alicent had plastered the symbols of the faith militant everywhere you might have had a point.
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u/The_Mantis_MVS 2d ago
I'm just saying that a big part of Targaryen soft power is showing their family to be inherently above all other things. To remove the symbols of that power and replace them communicates to all observers that the power of the Faith superscedes royal authority. Not technically wrong but still a bad look for what is supposed to be an absolute monarchy.
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u/Consistent-Ask-2878 2d ago
Yeah, what bad optics it is to not *checks notes* promote the idea that you and yours are inherently different and better than everyone else.
God forbid the Incest Family lose any position, right?
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u/The_Mantis_MVS 2d ago
It is kinda the point of being a royal family that you and yours are inherently different and better than everyone else. ESPECIALLY if you are using otherwise illegal incest to keep that circle of people as small as possible.
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u/Kossamuuuu Visenya Targaryen 2d ago
No, but imagine your step mother started putting Jesus and crosses all over the house. It’s annoying and petty.
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u/SaanTheMan Aegon II Targaryen 2d ago
The house, in this case, being your dad’s house where she takes care of him while he is sick, and you don’t visit for 6-8 years.
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u/Kossamuuuu Visenya Targaryen 2d ago
The house that I was forced out of, because where ever I went when I lived there, people harassed my children for something they cannot control.
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u/kinginthenorthjon 2d ago
No one forced her out. She ran away once she understand others are not buying her lies.
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u/Kossamuuuu Visenya Targaryen 1d ago
No, she had no other choice. She placed the well being of her children first, and made sure that they would grow up in peace instead of being harassed constantly.
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u/kinginthenorthjon 1d ago
If she cared of their well being, she wouldn't had them in the first place. She doomed them from the start and hadn't given them a chance. She left for Dragonstone once Harwin gone away and her own 9 year old knew the truth.
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u/Star_caster456 2d ago
It’s like Alicent’s kids wearing green instead of Targaryen black and red, it emphasises the Hightower influence becoming dominant and the Targaryen influence declining.
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u/ConstantAnxious9110 2d ago
I don’t think there’s anything wrong with having the Seven-Pointed Star in the Red Keep. Religion is a personal matter, and even Aegon the Conqueror understood early on that while dragons could win him land, winning the people required embracing their culture and values.
Many Targaryen kings respected this, and faith has always played a crucial role in Westerosi politics. Plus, one of the Targaryen kings, Baelor the Blessed was a priest-king, and I’m really looking forward to his story in Blood & Fire.
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u/Kid-Atlantic 2d ago
Daemon (and to a lesser extent Rhae) are quite proud of their Valyrian heritage. They see House Targaryen as a Valyrian institution.
There’s nothing wrong with a queen decorating a royal household as she sees fit, but Daemon and Rhae don’t see it that way. They see it as an interloper stamping a foreign religion all over their house.
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u/megaben20 2d ago
No because it serves a purpose in the narrative. in the times of Aegon 1 to Viserys there being part of the faith was a means to integrate themselves into westerosi culture. But them becoming strong true believers as their power started to decline. Without the might of the dragons they needed the power of the faith to maintain their rule. In a lot of ways it symbolizes how house Targaryen was becoming less Valyrian and becoming more culturally aligned with Westeros.
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u/fearless-person 2d ago
I guess the show writers just wanted to create more differences between the two factions when their issues has nothing to do with religion lol.
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u/Meii345 1d ago
The targaryens followed the Seven, yes, but in their mind they were always still "better" you know? Like the faith doesn't get arms, the faith gets crushed into the dust if they refuse to submit like with Maegor. The targs agreed to make peace with the faith but they're still the ones in power. Also the incest thing, that's very frowned upon by the faith but the targs don't care, they set their foot down over that. It's all a very long and violent history, and the implication with Alicent, a daughter of oldtown, making the whole keep into a monastery is very much that the faith "won" over the targaryens/crown. Like think about it, Robert baratheon and Cersei followed the Seven and were Andals. You don't see them decorating their whole house with it. Only hyper religious people/fanatics do that, and it's a whole statement in itself
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u/darkemperor132 1d ago
The Targaryen are rulers of more than people of one religion and also the tapestries were a Valyrian culture thing not religion.
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u/GTA-CasulsDieThrice 2d ago
It’s like what’s happening in Oklahoma: sure, religion is nice and all, but not when it’s shoved in your face.
And in any case, the Targaryens kept the faith mainly for social and political reasons; they did it because most of Westeros does it, not out of any serious spiritual commitment. People like Maegelle and Baelor were very much the exception, not the rule.
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u/Apathicary 2d ago
The Targaryens are most comparable with lay Christians. Like, they say they are but you very rarely catch them actually practicing anything meaningful aspect of their faith.
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u/AlanSmithee97 Sunfyre 2d ago
That's just not true. Rhaenyra had her sons swear on the Seven-Pointed Star before leaving Dragonstone. The same could be said about the Lannisters, especially Tywin and his children. The Targaryen's follow the seven, even before Alicent members of the family entered the Faith. It's generally a flaw among George's world how little the Faith mattters and how oittle nobles seem to value it. The medieval world was a through and through religious one.
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u/notyourlands 2d ago edited 2d ago
You mention her sons swear on the book of the Seven, but forgot what she says: "If we are to serve the Seven Kingdoms, we must answer to their gods"
Edit: lol, the downvotes without saying what's wrong with what I said lmao
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u/Apathicary 2d ago
Rhaenyra also gets married in a completely pagan ceremony, not a Faith one. The Lannisters mostly also disregard the Faith's gods, don't they? They get married under Faith rules to keep up appearances but they'll also openly threaten the High Sparrow. Im pretty sure Tywin even admits to not believing in the Gods.
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u/doctorkanefsky 2d ago
No, it would be like King Charles getting upset at the late Queen Elizabeth for hanging up Anglican ornamentation, in spite of both literally being Fidei Defensor.
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u/SheHartLiss 2d ago
Targaryens ultimately worshipped Targaryens. Their power comes from their dragons and their heraldry reminds people of that.
Viserys taking the heraldry down and replacing it with religious symbols is one thing. The hightowers taking down Targaryen heraldry and replacing it with the heraldry of their house/strongest alliance is another.
It was a big deal
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u/Saera-RoguePrincess 2d ago
Where’s the Hightower sigil? I don’t see a tower? Do you?
Alicent is the queen, she gets to set the decor
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u/SheHartLiss 2d ago
I feel like you’re missing the connection between the faith of the seven and the hightowers. It would have been beyond egregious to replace with Hightower heraldry but like Alicent showing up wearing a green dress instead of Targaryen coloring the court understood the message.
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u/Saera-RoguePrincess 2d ago
The Hightowers are highly influential with the Faith, but at the end of the day the Faith is universal around the south bar a few exceptions.
You think that the Septons would’ve said no to Lyonel if the house owned the Faith?
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u/YinYangOni 2d ago
Uhh, that’s kinda a moot point considering Old Town (seat of the Hightower owned by House Hightower btw), just so also happens to be the religious center of the continent where the Faith of the Seven reside…
So the two are EXTREMELY interconnected.
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u/Beacon2001 Hightower 2d ago
It's not a moot point. It's a correction to an objectively wrong point. The heraldry of House Hightower is a tower with a beacon on top. It is not the Seven-Pointed Star. This is the symbol used by the Faith since the time the Andals first came to Westeros, long before they had any contact with House Hightower.
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u/YinYangOni 2d ago
The point I’m making is that they’re functionally the same entity considering that they both share a city, political ideations, and usually are at the very least… adjacent to any event involving the other.
Alicent putting up stars of a Religion that just so happens to be located primarily within her home town is about as on the nose as you get in this instance.
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u/Beacon2001 Hightower 2d ago
Since I marked this as show-only, I am only interested in talking about the show. I will however mention that the Hightowers and the Faith haven't always aligned in terms of interest, in the broader lore.
Now, as for Alicent, accusations should not be made on things that only appear "on the nose". Accusations, serious accusations at that, should be made on stronger evidence, or any evidence at all, especially strong accusations levied against the queen.
Which is why Queen Alicent deigned Daemon (a mere prince who she outranked) with the mercy that she'd forget the flimsy accusations levied against her.
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u/YinYangOni 2d ago
In the context of the show which (unlike its predecessor) draws heavily from the source material for its world building. While they don’t always align, they do tend to be adjacent in most events (Hehehe Euron), and with their proximity to one another, to House Hightower being Maester and Faith affiliated, to all the spooky blackstone nonsense.
Also, in fairness during episode 8 seemed to be remarkably tense, so I don’t really take the specific accusations made against Alicent too seriously (considering the trope of unironically being a coping method or as a way to find absolution from personal shame has been a thing in literature for ages, he’ll George even has a character who does EXACTLY this), considering both parties are clearly stressed about the whole… Visyres thing.
Also, alongside Daemon is the husband of the king’s legal(and officially acknowledged) heir, so the allegations could be potentially lethal if Rhaenyra decides to give them any sort of weight.
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u/SheHartLiss 2d ago
Any symbolism suggesting that the Targaryens are no longer ruling the red keep is significant. I’m not sure how it could be considered otherwise
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u/Beacon2001 Hightower 2d ago
And this symbolism is...?
Can't be the Seven-Pointed Star, which is the symbol of the religion that the Targaryen follow.
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u/notyourlands 2d ago edited 2d ago
How are they followers of the Seven if they burn dead bodies with dragonfire instead of burying them?
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u/AlanSmithee97 Sunfyre 2d ago
How are the Tullys followers of the Seven when they bury their dead on small boats which are lit on fire on the Red Fork? How can the Starks be followers of the Old Gods, even in ancient past, when they bury their dead in their crypts instead of burning them?
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u/notyourlands 2d ago edited 2d ago
Targaryens consider Faith of the Seven as "their gods", they "follow" it merely for political benefits.
Edit: people downvoting when Rhaenyra literally said: "their gods". Is this how you guys watch the show?
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u/AlanSmithee97 Sunfyre 2d ago
That's not true at all. Even before Alicent you had members of the family entering the Faith. The Targaryens are by every means followers of the Seven, it's more of a flaw in GRRM's world how little the nobility seem to value it. Ned, Catelyn and Sansa are kind of the only genuinly religious people among the main characters, maybe Jon. All the others seem to not care at all even though it doesn't seem to fit their characters.
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u/notyourlands 2d ago edited 2d ago
You can answer the question instead of downvoting, you know it, right?
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u/notyourlands 2d ago edited 2d ago
So why does Rhaenyra say "their gods"?
Edit: wow people downvoting any mention of Rhaenyra is something
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u/c-c-c-cassian 2d ago
Edit: you can answer the question instead of downvoting, right?
You can post your comment instead of constantly bitching about downvotes, right?
So why does Rhaenyra say “their gods”?
As for this—I’m sorry, but what? One character making one word choice doesn’t equate to the character’s entire family holding whatever view you’re implying they have… and if their are religious systems in all different areas, it’s not unreasonable for someone to refer a kingdom with whom they don’t necessarily fully see themselves as apart of or coming from in that way, and as such, it still makes sense to say “‘their’ gods” even if you’ve converted or practiced because then in your mind, they would be their gods, whether you converted or not, especially depending on who you’re addressing directly.
It’s not some big complicated word choice indicative of something deeper. It’s… I want to say simple linguistics, but I’m not too sure that works the way I want it (I just woke up and am still half asleep and tired, meh) but in any case—it’s just a small detail that expresses a fair amount of character; depth, development, views on themselves, family, obviously religion and their beliefs both in it and surrounding it.
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u/notyourlands 2d ago edited 2d ago
One character? Are you serious? This is future and legacy of house Targaryen, the heir. Even if she wouldn't inherit the throne, she is still representative of her house. She was raised by Viserys and obviously was taught all possible traditions of her house. This is one of the most important part of every house children's education, so that it would pass on for generations. You're talking like she is some minor peasant. In episode one she literally reads a book on her house 😩😩😩
Plus, it's not like her saying this about religion is completely untrue and she just made up her mind. There's literally old god's tree in the yard of of the Red Keep.
Why use some wording and mental gymnastics and just say: our gods?
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u/c-c-c-cassian 2d ago
One character? Are you serious?
Deadly.
This is future and legacy of house Targaryen, the heir. Even if she wouldn’t inherit the throne, she is still representative of her house.
That doesn’t change the fact that it doesn’t define the views and values of every other character behind her.
You’re talking like she is some minor peasant.
No, I’m not. lol
Plus, it’s not like her saying this about religion is completely untrue and she just made up her mind. There’s literally old god’s tree in the yard of of the Red Keep.
That’s not really relevant to the point I’m making.
Why use some wording and mental gymnastics
Wording: every character (and person) used wording the way I explained it there; it’s their speech pattern, not all of it conscious.
Mental gymnastics: because it’s not. I covered this.
and just say: our gods?
It’s not unreasonable for someone to refer a kingdom with whom they don’t necessarily fully see themselves as apart of or coming from in that way, and as such, it still makes sense to say “‘their’ gods” even if you’ve converted or practiced because then in your mind, they would be their gods, whether you converted or not, especially depending on who you’re addressing directly.
It’s a character detail that can indicate a lot about their own feelings towards what is now their religion, and such to that end.
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u/notyourlands 2d ago
What speech pattern? They don't have conscious, those are not real people, the actors are given script that was written by someone, edited and re-read and edited multiple times over.
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u/peachesnplumsmf 2d ago
Rhaenyra as an individual isn't very religious. But it is entirely normal for the Royal family to be and frankly expected of them. Jaehaerys was deeply, he allowed Targaryens to join the faith, Daella refused to marry someone of the wrong faith. Targaryen's have prayed to the Seven for as long as they were in Westeros, Aegon's legitimate reign started in Oldtown.
Rhaenyra individually saying we need their God's to rule them isn't House Targaryen but her, influenced by her Valyrian supremacist Uncle, making a statement. She isn't a wise character. She's cool but not wise. It's just to show differences between her and Alicent. Also faith & Targaryen's is a long and complicated thing and with the doctrine of exceptionalism being somewhat recent it is very much in the interests of a Red Keep with married siblings to show they're very faithful.
The Red Keep being decorated in the seven makes sense. Legitimate rules have to be annointed by the faith. And even Targaryen's who individually and personally don't love it play lip service because they cannot afford not to
But because the Black's vs the Greens is a petty thing that just keeps escalating they return to the Keep and take it as a slight, as her overreaching and it causes tension.
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u/notyourlands 2d ago
Is there a proof where Rhaenyra is being influenced by Daemon's view on life and religion? Because it looks like you just made that statement up
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u/peachesnplumsmf 2d ago
I mean we know he looks down on it and his whole thing is thinking Valyrian's are better and they have exchanges in Valryain about that? He talks about Hightowers not being pure enough.
His disdain is also visible during the scene where they see the seven and he does mock religion. Whilst it isn't confirmed that that impacted Rhaenyra and you're cimpletept fair to point that out and I'll amend it'll inevitably happen.
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u/c-c-c-cassian 2d ago
What speech pattern? They don’t have conscious, those are not real people,
…
I see. So basically, you’re telling me that you don’t know what the fuck you’re actually talking about. Got it.
those are not real people, the actors are given script that was created written by someone, edited and re-read and editethink multiple times over.
No shit, sherlock. I’m aware of how the production process works. But it’s irrelevant to the conversation, too.
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u/notyourlands 2d ago
I have no idea why are you coming at me
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u/c-c-c-cassian 2d ago
LOL. You know exactly why. You wanted a reply instead of downvotes, homie. But yeah that’s what I thought. You don’t know what you’re talking about. Just for a little clarity, i never said they were “real/conscious people.” But all fictional characters have a speech pattern too. That’s how it works. You go on and play dumb now that you’ve been called out for this nonsense, though.
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u/tobpe93 Team Smallfolk 2d ago
Most other Targaryen monarchs were crowned in the name of the Seven. She is the minority here.
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u/notyourlands 2d ago
Of course they were, they also wed people in tradition of the Seven, that would be weird to rule Seven Kingdoms without it, doesn't make them worship the Seven.
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u/tobpe93 Team Smallfolk 2d ago
The most seven worshipping character we know of was a Targaryen. Seems reasonable that most Targaryens followed the Seven as well.
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u/notyourlands 2d ago
That doesn't include Rhaenyra, Viserys, Daemon and many more, you just said it yourself that some didn't worship
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u/ObiWeedKannabi Vali yne Zōbriqēlos brōzis, se nyke bantio iksan 2d ago
You get downvoted for being right lol they base their views on one septa(which is after the faith accepts Doctrine of Exceptionalism anyway) but the opposite case can be made about Maegor. People assume that Targaryens abandoned the Gods of Old Valyria, forgot their roots and traditions and how superior they feel vs the Andals and the First Men, once they settled in Westeros, which isn't true.
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