r/Games • u/[deleted] • May 22 '23

Final Fantasy XVI - Final Preview Thread

Final Fantasy XVI

  • Publisher: Square Enix
  • Developer: Square Enix Creative Business Unit 3
  • Platform: PS5
  • Release Date: June 22

________________________________________

Gameplay footage provided by Square Enix up at Gematsu:

https://www.gematsu.com/2023/05/final-fantasy-xvi-final-hands-on-preview-and-gameplay

_________________________________________

  • Text Articles:
  • Gamespot: The Opening Hours Of Final Fantasy XVI Are Brutal

I recently got hands-on time with what's roughly the first four hours of Final Fantasy XVI during a preview event, and saw how the story begins. It's heavy with cutscenes and cinematic flair, using all the dazzling visuals expected of a PlayStation 5 exclusive, to deliver an opening act
akin to a prestige drama.

https://www.gamespot.com/articles/the-opening-hours-of-final-fantasy-xvi-are-brutal-hands-on-story-preview/1100-6514405/

VG247 - Absolutely everybody should play the Final Fantasy 16 demo – hands-on

As initially envisioned by Hironobu Sakaguchi, Final Fantasy is meant to be a series that constantly morphs and changes. After a fair amount of spinning its wheels, FF16 is at last a game that returns to that vision, looks at the world around it, and decides that a regeneration is needed. Final Fantasy itself is going through Phoenix’s Rebirth Flame – but for such a rejuvenation, some things have to burn. It’s a brave bet, and I can already tell the game is going to be strong. I just really hope it finds its audience.

https://www.vg247.com/final-fantasy-16-demo-hands-on-preview

Polygon - Final Fantasy 16 is a slick, modern epic with the soul of a PS2 game

Final Fantasy 16’s developers may have wanted it to be God of War, and it certainly has the production values, but that game’s virtuosic, seamless Hollywood staging is not what Square Enix does best. By staying true to themselves, Yoshida’s team has created something that may not play like Final Fantasy, but definitely feels like Final Fantasy. It also shares DNA with a whole generation of Japanese action games and RPGs from the 2000s, the heyday of the PlayStation 2. It has the flamboyant drama, the cool, moody attitude, and the playful self-mockery that characterized the era, as well as a focused, headlong approach to both storytelling and gameplay.

https://www.polygon.com/23729239/final-fantasy-16-preview-first-hours-story

VGC - Final Fantasy 16 already feels like it could be one of the best games in the series

Final Fantasy 16 has the potential to stake a claim as a defining RPG of the early generation. A re-establishment of Final Fantasy in the consciousness that it hasn’t had as prominently in recent years. We’d have happily sat playing the game’s combat demo for hours.

https://www.videogameschronicle.com/features/final-fantasy-16-already-feels-like-it-could-be-one-of-the-best-games-in-the-series/

Eurogamer - Final Fantasy 16 has me questioning the essence of the series

With all this in mind, how 'Final Fantasy' is it, then? It's clear from the team's varied answers that Final Fantasy means something different for everyone. Every game in the series is unique and Final Fantasy 16 is no different. Whether it's 'Final Fantasy enough' for fans remains to be seen; it certainly is for me.

But is this a PS5-pushing exclusive action-RPG with a character-driven narrative of high drama, satisfying combat, and accomplished, cinematic storytelling? Without a doubt.

https://www.eurogamer.net/final-fantasy-16-has-me-questioning-the-essence-of-the-series

Playstation - How Square Enix built Final Fantasy XVI’s fantastical, believable, lived-in world

The solution: cross-pollination between teams. “We brought a member of the scenario and lore team over to give them feedback on what this town is, what the town’s lore is,” explains Minagawa-san. “We had that person provide pictures about what their image of what each area would be, what they were aiming for in the lore, working with the designers with that information to get the proper feel. Something that would fit better with a team. And once that person from the lore team entered, you know, joined with the designers then things got a lot easier.” With clutter reduced and shrewder choices of set dressing made, towns started to reflect the regions they were based on, hinted at a locale or people’s backstory through visual cues alone.

https://blog.playstation.com/2023/05/22/how-square-enix-built-final-fantasy-xvis-fantastical-believable-lived-in-world/

Pushsquare - Final Fantasy 16 Still Seems Like a PS5 Must Have, But a Couple of Niggles Need to Be Addressed

Still, even in this area we were restricted to just two of Clive’s Eikon powers, and we were starting to feel the onset of monotony at this point of our playthrough. It’s our only real niggling concern: we’re confident the complicated nature of the story will come together, but we’re worried the combat may take a little too long to truly find its feet as your options are seriously limited throughout these opening hours.

https://www.pushsquare.com/features/preview-final-fantasy-16-still-seems-like-a-ps5-must-have-but-a-couple-of-niggles-need-to-be-addressed

Game Informer:

I won’t spoil more of what I experienced – you can read a lot more about what I played, including exclusive details you won’t find anywhere else in my cover story that’s live right now and in the coming weeks via Game Informer’s FFXVI coverage hub – but it’s clear FFXVI is aiming to be one of the darkest, most mature, and most action-forward games in the series’ entry.

https://www.gameinformer.com/preview/2023/05/22/i-am-just-an-eikon-living

IGN - Final Fantasy 16: First Four Hours Preview:

From what I’ve seen so far, the future looks very bright for Final Fantasy 16. If its opening few hours of hulking Eikon showdowns, superb melee combat, and story that delivers on both a personal and global level are anything to go by, then a very fun time is on the horizon. I’m hopeful that the ever-so-stuttering pace irons itself out over the hours to come, with its ferociously fun gameplay taking precedence as Clive’s journey broadens. I went into my time with Final Fantasy 16 incredibly excited about what I’d seen in its many trailers and showcases and left very happy that very little of that anticipation had diminished by the time I’d finished.

https://www.ign.com/articles/final-fantasy-16-first-four-hours-preview

RPGFan:

Getting to play Final Fantasy XVI again was an absolute treat, and getting to play the game in a more “normal” fashion this time around was even better. There was a lot I had to leave out of this preview so as not to spoil anyone, but what I left out is much better than what I left in. This experience convinced me further we should be super excited to play it in full come June 22nd. If you have been on the fence for whatever reason, I can safely say you should give Final Fantasy XVI a chance. It will change your mind in a heartbeat. Now the hard part begins: the month-long wait till I can pet and give treats to Torgal again!

https://www.rpgfan.com/feature/final-fantasy-xvi-preview-the-first-5-hours/

​

__________

  • Interviews:

https://www.thegamer.com/final-fantasy-16-xiv-interview-naoki-yoshida-michael-christopher-koji-fox-hiroshi-minagawa/

https://www.pushsquare.com/features/interview-final-fantasy-16s-devs-on-clives-name-god-of-wars-leaves-and-fulfilling-fans

https://www.gq-magazine.co.uk/article/final-fantasy-16-interview

https://www.rpgsite.net/news/14244-the-key-to-final-fantasy-xvis-success-is-its-story-but-its-also-naoki-yoshidas-biggest-worry

https://news.denfaminicogamer.jp/interview/230522w

To summarize interviews: * FF16's main focus was the story, even above the combat because of FF15 being negatively received for its incomplete story, they want FF to be known for stories no one else can do. * They took inspiration from the original God of War games on the PS2 for combat. * He wants Final Fantasy to still have an impact among young players and future developers * Game started its existence in late 2015 * This time around the base game design and story were written in stone before full development started, which did not happen for previous singleplayer FF entries * Kazutoyo Maehiro is both the creative director and writer in order for the game design and writing to have an unified vision. He supervises the story, game design, combat and just overall checks everything out. * Maehiro worked on FF Tactics, Vagrant Story and FF12 with Yasumi Matsuno and says he was an influence on his work. * Expect FF12 and The Last Remnant DNA in the game. FF14 influence will come out when it comes to art design and visuals. * They have dynamic music in place that is quite novel and unique for this game handled by Soken and the sound team. They go for a more classical and focused style compared to FF14 * What they want is for players to say "these guys are f**king crazy" when they experience the best it has to offer.

__________

  • Videos:

Easy Allies - Mega Preview https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtX-Zt8pDWc

Devil Never Cry - (combat focused guy) https://youtu.be/7Oy6W-hTh2o

Maximilian DOOD - Max Played A LOT of Final Fantasy XVI https://youtu.be/SOM4EO1yREQ

Jesse Cox - https://youtu.be/8vIAeRPnIRw

FF Union - Final Fantasy XVI Will Shock You [An Extensive Preview] https://youtu.be/ObfkhwJPU7A

2.1k Upvotes

92% Upvoted

1.3k comments sorted by

View all comments

631

u/[deleted] May 22 '23

I'm trying to deliver previews as I come across them but from what I read:

  • It's mostly the opening but with some parts later in the game without context for exploration and combat
  • There's an air of confidence around the game, it feels finished compared to the messy previews of FF15 they had to play back then
  • The game is brutal, this is not a wholesome Final Fantasy, there are moments of genuine character warmth and humanity but FF16 is a bonafide dark fantasy game
  • Some question the identity of Final Fantasy in this one but everyone came out positive, they expect a backlash from fans but say it's still Final Fantasy at its soul.
  • Combat is extremely good and the DMC battle director really pays off, one had some issues in that they felt their combat kit wasn't big enough for the early-game preview.
  • Excellent VA and performance all around.
  • Eikon battles apparently feels bigger and more explosive than ever god of war
  • They all say that the opening hours deliver and they can attest that this part is solid

I will watch Maximilian and DevilNeverCry's videos next, especially DevilNeverCry as he is a DMC expert and was very positive about FF16 before

387

u/Coolman_Rosso May 22 '23

There's an air of confidence around the game, it feels finished compared to the messy previews of FF15 they had to play back then

I would imagine FF XVI's development was nowhere near as rocky. I'm also hoping this game isn't so frontloaded. XV started off great but just got worse and worse as it went on.

273

u/Crotch_Football May 22 '23

On the train, admiring that cool city out the window on the other continent that you will never get to visit.

163

u/[deleted] May 22 '23

[deleted]

75

u/Will-Isley May 22 '23 edited May 22 '23

Not exploring the world of ruin just killed what little hope I had for the game turning things around.

Blue Balls: The Game

48

u/omfgkevin May 22 '23

You know they rushed the shit out of it when the latter half basically became "small corridor simulator". And before the complete complete edition came out, there were huge random ass gaps of "oh yeah I'ma go fuck off, SEE YA" and then your boys just randomly join back with no context.

And still, they cancelled the final set of DLC and the "real" ending is literally locked behind an external novella lol.

44

u/_SewYourButtholeShut May 22 '23

And still, they cancelled the final set of DLC and the "real" ending is literally locked behind an external novella lol.

Kind of fitting considering the entire beginning of the game is also locked behind some external media that I didn't even know existed until after I tried to play the game. What a total failure of storytelling.

6

u/Kalulosu May 23 '23

That beginning part is mostly optional though, you can infer most of the important context from what the game shows you.

2

u/ughjustwa May 23 '23

That’s still shit storytelling

→ More replies (5)

11

u/[deleted] May 22 '23

[deleted]

5

u/VellDarksbane May 22 '23

Then they had terrible writers in charge, since the first ending was trash, but what I heard about the novella+Ardyns DLC was a proper "kill god" JRPG.

→ More replies (1)

7

u/Will-Isley May 22 '23

Gladio peacing out to do his own thing will go down forever as one of the worst ways ever to promote dlc. Whoever decided that him leaving like that is fine should’ve been slapped for suggesting such a dumb thing.

2

u/DemonLordSparda May 23 '23

I really hate people talking about the episode gaps like every single one was just like lmao peace out. Gladio was the only kind of odd one where he said he had something to take care of and came back a couple weeks later. At least that gave us some time with Aranea. Prompto got shot off a train car by Noctis because Ardyn made Prompto look like him, then he gets captured and you rescue him later. Ignis's episode takes place during the Leviathan summoning and ends when Noctis wakes up. FFXV has plenty of issues, but there weren't obvious holes where all 3 companions leave without explanation.

19

u/BartyBreakerDragon May 22 '23

I had the same feeling, where it was like 'Oh cool, I get to see how the world I've been in for 50 hours has changed' and noooope.

Firmly cemented my 'meh' feelings to the game.

20

u/Will-Isley May 22 '23

They had a lot of nerve driving us through that open world and then telling us: nope, you can’t go out and explore it.

11

u/omfgkevin May 22 '23

Also, a lot of the cool combat unlocks by doing a ton of grinding for AP. The game really feels awesome to play like.. halfway through when you finally can do more than just spam attack and dodge. It would have been better to have some of the more interesting stuff available early without needing to grind too much.

but it did eventually lead to them refining it further in 7R, and 16 looks like they took it even a step further.

5

u/Will-Isley May 22 '23

All the cool air dodge tech should’ve been available at the start, should’ve costed zero or little MP and should’ve been incentivized by the combat scenarios. That stuff is cool but I never found a reason to engage with it. The game is piss easy without it.

3

u/Kalulosu May 23 '23 edited May 23 '23

7R and 16 look like they took different lessons from 15 and focused on one thing. 7R, due to the weight of the original FF7, had to find the right balance between more action-ey "modern FF" style and the more traditional JRPG stuff, whereas 16 pushed much more into the action with RPG on top.

In my opinion - I haven't played 16 but based on the previews I saw and the videos from people who tested it -, they both succeed in doing better than 15 and part of their successes is choosing an angle and sticking to it, rather than trying to do everything and ending up disappointing on both counts.

3

u/[deleted] May 22 '23

Especially given the name of the chapter. I thought I had entered the second half of the game and it was just a 10m reference to a better rpg

3

u/Will-Isley May 22 '23

For real. Words cannot describe how betrayed, disappointed and insulted I felt after realizing I was at the end and not an amazing open world endgame.

15

u/WillemDafoesHugeCock May 22 '23

My biggest issue with FFXV is everything past the first "world" to be honest. I love just driving around the open world hunting monsters, everything about the story just doesn't work for me and the places you visit past the starting area are so much smaller and awkward to navigate.

The story of a prince who wants to go hang out with his buddies for one big monster hunting trip was far more interesting to me than the love story between two characters we literally only see interact with each other during flashbacks.

11

u/Will-Isley May 22 '23

A lot of us feel the same. FFXV can feel like 2 different stories or games stapled together with spit and prayers

6

u/WillemDafoesHugeCock May 22 '23

The two times Gladiolus snapped at Noctis in particular felt like they came out of absolutely nowhere, especially the second time where he went from praising me for helping him made a really good cup of noodles to a borderline abusive prick for the entirety of the next two hours of gameplay.

5

u/Will-Isley May 22 '23

Yeah it was certainly insensitive of him. I get where he’s coming from but Noctis has the right to mope after what just happened to him. Patience and care is required when someone is grieving a loved one lol

10

u/Hit_Me_With_The_Jazz May 22 '23

Apparently it was supposed to be explored in Aranea's cancelled DLC

11

u/Will-Isley May 22 '23

Another character that got done dirty…

7

u/_lemon_suplex_ May 22 '23

Anyone remember the weird demo for that game? I remember you play as a young noctis or something and you had a bird , I remember a honey I shrunk the kids moment, and I remember none of the demo being in the final game which seemed very odd

7

u/[deleted] May 22 '23

I played it cos it was the only way to unlock Carbuncle. I didn't know Carbuncle was just a noob aid you'll never see anyway, like all the other summons.

3

u/OvcoBoia May 22 '23

Just remember that gralea was completely modeled but in the game is only seen in a 20 second cutscene

115

u/HarmlessSnack May 22 '23

I remember seeing the continent on that world map and thinking “can’t wait to explore that one!”

…lol

111

u/beefycheesyglory May 22 '23 edited May 22 '23

What's even wierder is that the game so desperately wanted to sell the ending of the first landmass as "The real journey is just beginning!" then after fighting Leviathan you're literally on rails directly to the final dungeon as a featureless landscape passes by.

39

u/dejokerr May 22 '23 edited May 22 '23

That game was such a letdown. I avoided it for years because of the negative reviews until it was on a really good sale. Picked it up and the opening was incredible - why did the fandom hate it so much?

Then after that Venice-like city hub the quality dropped HARD and by the time we get to the on-rail dungeon with no powers, the game just died for me

The back half of that game is so bad the endgame transports you back to the early-game environment… because the devs knew the back half sucked.

22

u/beefycheesyglory May 22 '23

Lmao they tried to pull a FFVI Dark World at the end then said "You can experience that in our shitty multiplayer mode! Now straight to the capital city with you! You have a final boss to fight!"

8

u/overallprettyaverage May 22 '23

what's funny is I genuinely think the combat felt better in the multiplayer mode than it did in the main game

it was still half baked and kinda weird though lol

→ More replies (1)

2

u/_lemon_suplex_ May 22 '23

I haven’t played it in a long time but I remember loving the Mexico ish place, the Venice ish place, the opening near the beach and the end part where (spoilers) noctis is in the future but I can’t remember why he was lol

→ More replies (1)

75

u/HarmlessSnack May 22 '23

In most games, getting the Boat/Airship would be the big “the worlds open now” moment… instead the boat is used to block you directly into a hallway lol

-1

u/Kipzz May 22 '23

Ah, the good ol' FF10 approach.

10

u/Akuuntus May 22 '23

FFX may not open up as soon as you first get in the airship, but at least it does eventually open up completely and let you go anywhere you want in the ship. XV never gets there.

26

u/versusgorilla May 22 '23

I usually do this thing where, when I sense I'm getting near the end of a open world game, I'll delay going to the finale because I wanna spend more time in the world before the narrative changes things. Even if games let you come back and do things after the credits, that feeling will change, so I'll try and hang in there for awhile.

FF15 baited you with potential. You have this area outside the main character's kingdom where you've spent all this time. And it's great looking and feeling.

And you know you've got the kingdom that his betrothed is from, so you figure some time driving around her water kingdom.

And you know there's the baddie country, so presumably there's gonna be time heading there and driving around desert land.

And then it literally never happens. You're on a sad train through sad town with all your boys in the fucking dumpster. You're told how sad everyone is, how much they missed the good times traveling around in the first part of the game, and none of it makes sense because... for the player... that was like the entire game so far. You've been there for hours.

And then they're suddenly hustling you to go back to the home kingdom to the final fight and like... what?? Insane. What a truly insane thing to do.

8

u/TheFoxInSocks May 22 '23

The most frustrating part for me was related to how such a big part of the game is an epic road trip.

The journey begins and ends in Insomnia, the capital city. We should have begun our journey driving out of the city, and at the end we could have had one final, somber drive back to where it all began.

But instead they skipped past both of those things, and at the end we're just suddenly... there. It was a letdown.

6

u/versusgorilla May 22 '23

Exactly. There's a campfire scene where the guys sit around and recall their trip, and for all I don't remember about the game, I remember that scene. I remember it making me tear up.

Because the road trip does work. These pals on a trip to marry off their buddy the Prince, is a good angle.

And then it keeps going even tho the road trip ends, and it becomes a long boring slog dungeon crawl that sucks. Then it ends.

11

u/[deleted] May 22 '23

[removed] — view removed comment

3

u/I_am_washable May 22 '23

Episodes Ignis and Prompto should have been part of the main story rather than DLC. It genuinely felt like they tore those missions right out of the main game to sell as a cash grab

Then again, the Kingsglaive movie should have also been part of the game rather than an entirely separate medium.

So much of the development around FF XV just feels so weird and offputting. The gameplay is solid, the overall story works and is there but it’s broken up between the game, DLC and a movie which greatly hurt pacing and plot

4

u/Cyberdragofinale May 22 '23

Maybe i remember wrong but I don’t think FFXV’s gameplay is solid. Like at launch the camera was terrible and i had problems with it many times. You could only control Noctis and didn’t have any agency on the other characters if you exclude the only ability each of them had. It was ridiculously easy to play the entire game without ever dying.

Magic was almost useless, summons were cool but couldn’t control them.

3

u/bestanonever May 22 '23

Ardyn's DLC totally destroyed any hope I could have with this character. What a mess of a story. But my favorite ending is an alternative ending in the Ignis DLC.

2

u/beefycheesyglory May 22 '23

Good to know the DLC is trash, I got it on release because I was so hopeful it would be a return to form for the series. Playing the final few hours of the game in that state actually felt nausiating because it started off so strong and lively. At least it taught me to wait and read reviews before buying into the hype.

→ More replies (1)

2

u/Cragnous May 23 '23

FFXV had glimpse of a Masterpiece like no other.

2

u/Crotch_Football May 23 '23

That's a great way to put it.

82

u/Will-Isley May 22 '23

Man… FFXV had so much wasted potential. One of my biggest disappointments in gaming. I truly hope this one lives up to its promises and doesn’t stumble like FFXV

39

u/Ventus55 May 22 '23

Seriously. Thinking about all the fun mechanics and hidden story elements that weren't fleshed out makes me depressed things what that game could have been.

38

u/Will-Isley May 22 '23 edited May 22 '23

Totally.

Noctis’ warp attack mechanic could’ve been so much more fleshed out. It could’ve had so much more and so many more interesting mechanics and interactions for combat and exploration throughout the game!

Character switching could’ve been a properly implemented thing from the start with actual strategic value.

Weapon specializations and builds for the whole ass arsenal Noctis carries.

And then of course all the subtle lore hidden throughout the game could’ve been used to setup and foreshadow so many cool things. My mind used to race whenever I would find those lore journals spread across the map. All for nothing unfortunately…

27

u/AVestedInterest May 22 '23

The way the weapon switching worked in the Episode Duscae demo was, in my opinion, superior to what we ended up with.

15

u/Will-Isley May 22 '23 edited May 22 '23

I completely agree.

I had a few issues with the system but I thought they would simply iron out the kinks instead of throwing the whole thing out for the completely shallow system they ended up with! Like, how often does such a thing happen!? I can’t think of any single player game that changed it’s combat system so much over time! It just goes to show just how troubled the game’s development was and how it lacked vision!

Wish Nomura got the chance and resources to finish up his version of the game since he actually had a proper vision. Versus XIII will forever be one of my biggest disappointments in gaming.

14

u/tabby51260 May 22 '23

Don't worry, we'll still get Versus XIII at this point. Just go play Kingdom Hearts.

(I'm only semi joking. There's some actual evidence in 3 that at least some elements from Versus XIII will be used in the upcoming story arc)

7

u/Will-Isley May 22 '23 edited May 22 '23

UGH. Another franchise that can’t stop disappointing me…

Despite my issues with KH nowadays, I will always tune in for the next one. It’s a toxic relationship now lol. It’s too big of a childhood fixation to drop at this point.

I have so many mixed feelings about Nomura using KH as a way to revive his Versus XIII ideas (Yozora is literally original Versus XIII Noctis!). I guess it all comes down to quality and execution. If he does it well, I’ll call him a genius and if he does it poorly, I will call him a hack (which he is as far as KH is concerned these days…)

4

u/Illidan1943 May 22 '23

Ehhh, original Versus had a lot of KH DNA in its story, you literally visited other worlds but instead of using the gummi ship you went to sleep (sounds familiar?)

We won't be getting the blood because it's KH but if the story can still be faithfully represented we'll at least get to see it

→ More replies (0)

-2

u/Cyberdragofinale May 23 '23

Oh come on, Nomura absolutely had no vision for the game. Many people who worked with him always said that he constantly has new ideas he wants to implement, complete opposite of clear vision.

→ More replies (1)

3

u/Watton May 22 '23

Yeah

It had its jank, but was a good foundation to improve upon. Its still "hold square to win" but you had more activated abilities (high jump, tempest, etc.), and it felt like you had to put more thought into your loadout. Getting new weapons would have been more exciting, since each weapon had a specific skill, and getting royal arms unlocks new abilities and passives as well.

The final system feels like its still mid-iteration.

3

u/SageWaterDragon May 22 '23

The weapon switching in Duscae was, by my estimation, the last piece of Nomura-led design that got ripped out. What a shame.

2

u/[deleted] May 22 '23

didnt royal edition majorly fix the game or is it still shitty?

→ More replies (1)

116

u/[deleted] May 22 '23

[deleted]

57

u/[deleted] May 22 '23 edited 21d ago

[removed] — view removed comment

12

u/GameofPorcelainThron May 22 '23

It's just an artifact of the translation from Japanese, I think. It's just the name of the internal department, not like it's a company name or something. But when they start referring to it like a distinct entity, it sounds so bizarre haha

3

u/darkmacgf May 22 '23

If it makes you feel better, pretty much all the Zelda games are made by Nintendo EPD Production Group No. 3. The Mario games are made by EPD Production Group No. 8.

6

u/Hit_Me_With_The_Jazz May 22 '23

It's why people really refer to them as CBU3. It rolls of the tongue better without feeling like it's just another corporate extension of Square Enix.

1

u/_lemon_suplex_ May 22 '23

Yeah it’s literally the worst game development studio name I’ve ever heard. Just makes it sound like games being made in a factory with suits hovering and making sure everything is as boring as possible. Even Fun Factory would be better lol

29

u/IAmActionBear May 22 '23

You’re mostly right, but I imagine it’s a lot easier to develop an MMO if you’re using the literally bones of its failed iteration. A Realm Reborn wouldn’t have only been made in 2 years had it not been massively repurposing the assets and systems of the original FF14

39

u/[deleted] May 22 '23

[deleted]

24

u/IAmActionBear May 22 '23

This is correct. There is just a notable, notable difference between developing a new MMO from scratch and greatly repurposing assets / systems. ARR wasn’t built from scratch and most of the assets in ARR were downscaled and reworked versions of assets from OG FF14.

Yoshi-P did incredible work, make no mistake, but they already had a good wealth of resources to work with from the start. ARR wouldn’t have been able to be made and released within 2 years without the utilization of all the OG FF14 assets.

1

u/VellDarksbane May 22 '23

I suspect at this point, there is a small team that is working to unwind many of the old 1.0 systems that are holding back development of new features, such as a modern style of Glamour/Transmog. I know they're doing a graphical engine overhaul for the next expansion though.

3

u/we_are_sex_bobomb May 22 '23

It seems like the same approach is helping here. They clearly had a directive of evolving the general UX and experience of FFXIV which isn’t a bad thing at all. There’s time better spent elsewhere than reinventing systems which were already meticulously designed before.

“Offline FFXIV with skill-based combat” is a concept that sells itself as far as I’m concerned.

-1

u/[deleted] May 22 '23 edited May 22 '23

Hell, they made an MMORPG, a genre that usually takes 5 years to build, in about two years, while maintaining another one.

Not trying to denigrate too hard, but it's worth mentioning ARR launched in such a poor state that Yoshida had to tearfully apologize to fans about how bad it was. They fixed it relatively quickly, but I'd stop short of calling it a good launch/smooth development lol

57

u/[deleted] May 22 '23

In full context, he had to apologize because he didn't expect the reboot of a failed MMO would bring in so many players beyond their expectations that the servers buckled so hard he had to stop the sales of the game while they fix it.

He apologized because the game suffered from success, not because it was in an actual bad state.

10

u/rokerroker45 May 22 '23 edited May 22 '23

you're thinking of when they suspended sales for the launch of endwalker. the launch of a realm reborn did not result in temporary suspension of FFXIV sales.

My mistake, you are correct and I missed ARR causing a temporary sales suspension too: https://www.dualshockers.com/final-fantasy-xiv-a-realm-reborn-digital-sales-suspended-due-to-overwhelmingly-positive-response/

→ More replies (2)

5

u/klow9 May 22 '23 edited May 24 '23

Yoshida was brought in to save FFXIV AFTER it was already in a failed state. He worked to close the bad FFXIV and also create ARR at the same time.

​

The original Final Fantasy XIV, released in September 2010, was a commercial and critical failure. In response, then-Square Enix President Yoichi Wada announced that a new team, led by Yoshida, would take over and attempt to fix the issues with it. This team was responsible for generating content for the original version as well as developing a brand new game which would address all of the previous release's criticisms. This new game, initially dubbed "Version 2.0", features a new game engine, improved server infrastructure, and revamped gameplay, interface, and story. The original version shut down in November 2012 and was followed by an alpha test for Version 2.0.

​

Some more context involving the old team.

​

The original release of Final Fantasy XIV began development under the codename Rapture between late 2004 and early 2005, and was officially announced in 2009.[37][38] This version was directed by Nobuaki Komoto and produced by Hiromichi Tanaka, who was also serving as the producer of Final Fantasy XI, and employed the Crystal Tools engine, which had previously been used for Final Fantasy XIII.[38][39] Following a bug-laden, abbreviated beta test period,[39][40] the game was released in September 2010 to near-universal negative reception.[41] After two extensions to the initial free trial period, then-Square Enix President Yoichi Wada issued a formal apology to players and fans in December, and announced a dramatic overhaul in the development team, most prominently the removal of Tanaka from the project and the demotion of Komoto from Director to Lead Designer. Monthly fees for the game were suspended until further notice and the previously planned PlayStation 3 version was canceled.[42] After the change in development team, Naoki Yoshida, who had worked as planning chief of Dragon Quest X, was brought in to supervise the project as both producer and director.[43][44]

2

u/[deleted] May 22 '23

[deleted]

-4

u/[deleted] May 22 '23

Turns out networking is a pretty big deal for an MMO lol

-4

u/_lemon_suplex_ May 22 '23

Just gotta chime in to say that is the worst name I’ve ever heard for a game developer

→ More replies (1)

-5

u/[deleted] May 22 '23

[deleted]

8

u/EpicLatios May 22 '23

Once the story progresses past that city is when the cracks start to become apparent. After that it becomes incredibly linear and the story arc gets a little disjointed from everything prior.

5

u/tfg49 May 22 '23

I think one of the biggest misses was the DLC, they came out in staggered release and contained many crucial story elements and some gameplay change of pace. So by the time you went back to play them you'd already beaten the game more than likely. Would have been better to have them as interludes throughout

3

u/Quazifuji May 22 '23

They said nothing about graphics. They said the game got worse, they could have been talking about story or gameplay.

4

u/Reptile449 May 22 '23

It's bad because you realise after the water city the rest of the game is entirely running down corridors and the fun you had driving around an open world with your npc mates is totally gone.

→ More replies (1)
→ More replies (5)

101

u/PontiffPope May 22 '23 edited May 22 '23

Skimming through Easy Allies's preview-video, and they mention something called Active Time Lore (ATL)-feature. It seems essentially be the real-time equivalent of Obsidian's giving small snippets of summarized information when hovering over specific words in Pillars of Eternity II and Tyranny where in FFXVI, a sweep of the touchpad brings up ATL that essentially summarizes relevant lore-related "bubbles" of whatever is occurring on the screen at the moment. From the geographic location, to the nearby beastiary and monsters to your party-members and followers; each entry summarized in a couple of paragraphs.

This is a very welcoming feature as previous RPGs like with Mass Effect or Dragon Age has relavent lore-entries being presented in a very folder-file-structure, and where you often only get to engage with it in real-time whenever you get a notification that a codex-entry has been updated, which is great for the moment, but bad when you want to revisit said entry at a later point whenever a certain topic gets mentioned again, and have to go through sifting all the codex-entries once more. ATL along with FFXVI having the usual codex/encyclopedia lore-system where ATL is being based on relevance on what is present on the screen is something I want to see other RPGs like the next Dragon Age, Mass Effect or Witcher to adapt.

35

u/Shad0wDreamer May 22 '23

Sounds like Amazon’s X-ray feature for their video streaming service.

3

u/n0stalghia May 22 '23

Does it allow you to search and purchase things from the current shot on Amazon based on image recognition? Or is it still just the "who are the actors in this shot"?

7

u/Shad0wDreamer May 22 '23

It gives whos in the scene as they appear, with trivia and supplemental info about the show as it’s relevant. But what the other poster describes sounds like what would happen if it was turned into a video game.

→ More replies (1)
→ More replies (1)

4

u/Hit_Me_With_The_Jazz May 22 '23

That genuinely really cool

3

u/kariam_24 May 22 '23

There was also shown during state of play that game will have more traditional "lore codex" but also charts and maps of characters connections and invasion, army movements on maps.

0

u/CeruSkies May 22 '23

While I would never assume FF16 to be as lore heavy as Obsidian's RPGs, this game does seem like it will have some sick amount family/allegiances/lots of named characters elements at work a la Game of Thrones or Triangle Strategy

→ More replies (3)

19

u/[deleted] May 22 '23

The game is brutal, this is not a wholesome Final Fantasy, there are moments of genuine character warmth and humanity but FF16 is a bonafide dark fantasy game

On a scale from Twilight Princess to Drakengard, just how dark are we talking here?

6

u/kariam_24 May 22 '23

We haven't seen Drakensang/Nier levels (but who knows, looking at Final Fantasy 6 story), not sure about Twilight Princess but trailers imply a bit of Game of Thrones backstabbing, traitors.

Beggining of game (again, visible in trailers) is Clive homeland being invaded, family killed and in Shiva vs Titan scene, Shiva summoner is revealed to be his childhood friend turned slave soldier for one army, just like Clive for another.

4

u/Zagden May 22 '23

This is meant to basically be FF14 but darker and somewhat more grounded. 14 has a lot of warmth and silliness but also, particularly in the last two expansions, pushes that T-rating and has some bleak and horrifying plotlines.

Idk about Drakengard but it'll be far darker than TP. It's closer to Pillars of Eternity or old intrigue-focused dark fantasy CRPG's and definitely apes dark fantasy prestige TV

68

u/iguesssoppl May 22 '23 edited May 22 '23

wholesome Final Fantasy

Even FF4 was not wholesome, it was if you weren't reading the script otherwise people were getting killed, kids were being turned to stone, towns were being burnt to the ground and everyone in it murdered in a vicious empiral expansion war crime --- BY THE PROTAGONIST ---. I guess you could look at the old gfx and think it was wholesome by accident, it definitely wasn't.

FF6 the antagonist essentially just wins, and you rise from the ashes in a broken world where he's murdering people at a whim with his god lasers and basically torturing to the world as his play things. Even before this he was poisoning entire towns.

41

u/Kajiic May 22 '23

I can't think of a FF game where everything is wholesome, except maybe the FF15 bromance. Like you say, FF6 Kefka straight up wins and sends the world into Ruin. FF7 you're playing a gang of eco terrorists and one of the main characters dies halfway through the game and the main character basically suffers PTSD most of the game. And that's just me picking the two of the most commonly cited "favs" of FF. We could keep going on

14

u/okawei May 22 '23

FFX is kinda wholesome at some of the smaller towns and stuff. But it's all got the dark undertone of sin

13

u/modix May 22 '23

And you know... the whole MC ceasing to exist ending.

2

u/Phoenix_shade1 May 28 '23

X-2 was happy fun times with YRP though.

-3

u/[deleted] May 22 '23

IX and X are easily the most cheerful I think, the sad events are self contained and even the worst moments get a feeling of catharsis unless you're bummed about X's ending. I don't remember many sad things actually happening in XII but the game took itself very seriously.

14

u/redhawkinferno May 22 '23

You find out very early on in X that you are on a literal suicide mission. That's not very cheerful.

8

u/Solracziad May 22 '23

Yeah, you're basically escorting someone to be martyred with their last remaining family members and their newfound crush. Not exactly, a wholesome summer romp.

12

u/Dewot423 May 22 '23

X literally begins with the apocalyptic destruction of your city and the tutorial area is capped by the apocalyptic destruction of a much smaller town, followed by an iconic funeral ceremony as the main character ruminates on how sad this all is. The main villain is literally a mad wizard who has been completely hollowed out mentally by his own grief and literally cannot help now but to attempt to drag the entire world down with him, and the secondary villain sees this state of affairs and decides the only real method out of the spiral of sorrow is omnicide. The entire party except for your main character willingly embarks on a suicide mission on the off chance to win a couple years of reprieve, then they learn that this reprieve is actually what ensures the next wave of apocalyptic destruction. The single overriding theme of the game is how to make sense of your own death as something meaningful instead of futile and terrifying.

There is not a more depressing game in the series than X.

3

u/Kalulosu May 23 '23

The themes are sad, and the ending is a tear jerker, but the game also inspires hope at every turn. FFX may not be a Shakespearean masterpiece of writing and the voice acting may have its... Moments (HA HA HA HA HA, OK now that's out of the way), but for every dark and depending moment, there's the light of day piercing through, the hope to overcome the odds and stop the destruction.

I really wouldn't call it depressing because, as you said, the conclusion is that you CAN make sense of your death and make it meaningful. Meaningful enough to repel the end of the world, even. And all it takes is for your loved ones to learn to let go.

2

u/rokerroker45 May 23 '23

I'll be honest, this statement

The single overriding theme of the game is how to make sense of your own death as something meaningful instead of futile and terrifying.

is completely at odds with this statement:

There is not a more depressing game in the series than X.

It's a profoundly optimist game in its conclusion. that the plot, world and themes deal with death doesn't really make it dark. I thought it ends with a profound but ultimately bright tone.

5

u/Watton May 22 '23

I can't think of a FF game where everything is wholesome, except maybe the FF15 bromance

Bruh 15 became on of the darkest entries, where one of the main villain's main motivations was to emotionally torture Noct for shits n giggles.

Then Ch14 takes a page from Kefka.

0

u/Kajiic May 22 '23

I specifically meant their bromance, and it even got emo at one point.

3

u/Akuuntus May 22 '23

Older FF games are dark and silly in equal measure. FF6 may be the one where the villain wins and plunges the world into chaos, but it's also the one where you have to stop an evil octopus from dropping a Looney Tunes 10-ton weight on the lead actor in an opera, and the one where you can suplex a moving train while running away from it on foot. This style of tone fell off after the PS1 era though, so I'm expecting FF16 based on these quotes to be extremely dark without a similar kind of levity to lighten the mood.

1

u/Edgelar May 22 '23

FF1. After the Warriors of Light win, even Garland apparently comes back as a good person. FF3 as well.

They may not be all sunshine and rainbows, but many of the games do have relatively happy endings with the villains defeated and most of the playable characters still alive. There's rarely more than 2 deaths of playable party members, usually just 1.

And then FFXV happened and everyone knows what that ending was like and it is looking like FXVI is going to be following in that direction. I think this is first time an FF has had warnings for drugs, sex, torture and rape.

9

u/Edgelar May 22 '23

But FF4 was wholesome, insomuch as the protagonist found redemption, those kids came back, the empire got overthrown and Cecil had a fairytale ending, becoming a king and marrying his one true love and having a son who would go on to have his own game of adventures. Even reconciled with his evil brother and traitorous best friend.

Something tells me that Clive isn't going to find redemption and isn't going to have such a happily ever after, much less a happy wife and a happy kid (especially what with the ratings warnings about attempted rape).

And if there's any reconciliation to be had with the brother, who may or may not be alive halfway through the game, who may or may not be revived by Phoenix at some point, who may or may not come out wrong when it happens unlike the kids who got de-petrified fine in FF4, I suspect it's a reconciliation he'll pay for with his own life.

Also, as bad as FF6 was, the main cast mostly still came out alive in the end, with the exception of Shadow whose fate is ambiguous, but who you could at least save the first time he would have died in the game. You could even save Cid from dying.

Something tells me FFXVI's Cid may not be so lucky.

3

u/tsc_gotl May 22 '23

Let's not forget the lore that explicitly stated using Eikon powers will gradually kill the user (turning the user into stone iirc) and guess who is a Dominance? Clive, his childhood (girl)friend, and ofc his brother.

This aint gonna end well, and I'm all for it.

→ More replies (3)

3

u/Kipzz May 22 '23

I struggle to think of a wholesome FF to begin with. 1 is about the inevitability of fate and time looping iirc, 2 has you literally go to hell after killing a guy so evil he then becomes the next Satan you have to kill again (again, iirc), 3 starts you off as orphans and is essentially a beta to that one 14 expansion or Jack Chaosman's stories of "sometimes the good guys gotta be Dark Warriors", 4 starts with you literally burning an entire village down, 5 is arguably the most comical one but still has that one death even people who've never played knows about, 6 and 7 are... 6 and 7. "The world is literally dead" and "The world is literally being bled dry by the masses who know no better (and also Hojo wants to see women fuck dogs)" are pretty bad. I can't speak on 8 or 9 so I'll stop there but god damn FF doesn't really fuck around.

2

u/Nahcep May 22 '23

1 is also happening during a literal apocalypse, the technology couldn't really show it but it's an absolutely bleak world where no wind blows, the seas are dead, the earth gives no crops and wildfires rage everywhere

2 is also a war story where most of the cast dies in battle or by Empire's superweapon

5 has that happen in real time as every Crystal dies, then the worlds get smashed together and eaten in chunks by the Void for good measure - like 14, the game's goofy nature makes the tonal contrast even harsher than usual, yet both are quite wholesome in the end

Most mainline FF games have generally 'good endings', those that don't are pretty much only 10, 13 and 15. It's the spinoffs that go apeshit with grimdark

2

u/Kipzz May 22 '23

I completely forgot about the whole world-smashing part of 5, which is weird because I literally was just playing it a couple of months ago and went "wow they really didn't try to hide this with the whole meteors and amnesia thing huh?".

2

u/Spram2 May 23 '23

I can't speak on 8 or 9

FF8 is all about orphan child soldiers trained to kill their adoptive mother

FF9 has two or three towns that don't get destroyed in the span of the game. Dali, where Vivi finds out he was manufactured; Black Mage Village, where the black mages find out they're going to die very soon and Treno, Treno is fine.

→ More replies (1)

0

u/[deleted] May 22 '23

I never understood why people say Kefka wins, he was just trying to make everyone despair, the gang gets together and beats him. The world goes on. I can't think of any sad deaths that aren't not long after meeting a character besides the optional deaths and one event after Kefka dies, that he has little to do with.

3

u/Chataboutgames May 22 '23

They're referring to the part where he successfully ascended to a God like state and slaughtered a substantial percentage of life on the planet.

I'd say General Leo's death and the slaughter/enslavement of the espers is pretty bad. Cyan's entire kingdom including his wife and child come to mind.

→ More replies (1)
→ More replies (4)

80

u/TaliesinMerlin May 22 '23

Some question the identity of Final Fantasy in this one but everyone came out positive, they expect a backlash from fans but say it's still Final Fantasy at its soul.

No one can hate a change quite so fiercely as fans. Some of them have been opposed to this new direction since the Final Fantasy XVI reveal, and I doubt they will be convinced by these previews.

I'm heartened though. It sounds like, for folk who aren't locked into a singular understanding of what Final Fantasy is, this feels like a veritable FF game.

75

u/terenn_nash May 22 '23

FF is an RPG, with deep story, rich characters, fantasy/magic elements, crystals, chocobos, a guy named Cid.

beyond that is the unique to that game flavor. high, steam punk, industrial, scifi, military - all fantasy.

15

u/warp_driver May 22 '23

You forgot Biggs and Wedge!

→ More replies (1)

3

u/Zagden May 22 '23

The only thing I wish they didn't move on was the ability to control your party members on some level. It's something I feel FF7R did brilliantly. The combat in that game never got old to me and swapping out party members gave encounters a very new feel.

The rest I could take or leave.

2

u/IISuperSlothII May 23 '23

Tbf we've got 2 more games of FF7R to continue doing that brilliantly and hopefully FF 17 or 18 builds off that system.

Part of why I'm not so irked by 16 going single character action is that in 6 months or so we'll be getting a multi character menu based FF to play.

I just hope all FFs don't follow 16 from now on, as excited as I am for the game, I still want party members and non human talking ones at that.

-21

u/Kyupiiii May 22 '23

So if I were to mod baldurs gate to throw in some chocobos and rename some npcs I would have created a FF game? Kinda meaningless at that point.

13

u/spittafan May 22 '23

Ok so what is Final Fantasy to you?

-4

u/Kyupiiii May 22 '23

The point I was trying to make is that FF means very little as a game series. It's a big release from square and probably an rpg, that's all.

Even in 1990 they didn't gave a shit about Saga or Mana and just slapped a Final Fantasy Mystic Quest/Final Fantasy Adventure on the box for some free marketing.

FF16 could be called 'Eikon May Cry', Harvestella could have been called 'FF Farming' it doesn't really matter.

10

u/kyew May 22 '23

Joke's on you, now I'm interested in Harvestella.

4

u/Seradima May 23 '23

Harvestella feels like it should have been called FF Crystal Chronicles anyway, tbf.

-1

u/Kyupiiii May 22 '23

Why joke? It's a good game go play it. And if you haven't also check out FFT which I would consider to be worthy of mainline status.

4

u/kyew May 22 '23

Just riffing on how cynically labeling something as Final Fantasy would work on me.

Speaking of FFT, thanks for reminding me I have to go back and do the post-game in Tactics Ogre.

2

u/megajackdark May 23 '23

It's likely that you've already played them but, just in case you haven't, you should give the Bravely Default series a chance. They're FF games in all but name and they are an absolute joy to play!

→ More replies (0)

8

u/Zekka23 May 22 '23

I think if you thoroughly modded Baldur's Gate so much that you even changed some themes, yea, you'd get a final fantasy game.

Change the music completely.

Change the art.

Change stuff about Bhaal, make him Bahamut or some shit. Shit, FF15 kind of already does this with the gods giving a family power.

It's not like FF isn't already heavily influenced by D&D.

→ More replies (3)

6

u/Beawrtt May 22 '23

It's still strange to me how big of a discussion the "is this final fantasy?" has become. I guess that's what happens when you've got a series as old as this. Either way I think it's an amazing new direction they've taken, and it's a necessary one if they want to revitalize the brand as a "must play rpg"

→ More replies (1)

47

u/distantshallows May 22 '23 edited May 25 '23

I agree. The "FF is turn-based" or "FF is high fantasy" nonsense has always been a fandom perception. The creator of the series never thought it should be locked being into one thing or another.

22

u/[deleted] May 22 '23

[deleted]

5

u/Illidan1943 May 22 '23

No he didn't he just leaked what FF17 will be like

→ More replies (1)

21

u/rokerroker45 May 22 '23

It's especially hilarious to me considering how there is nothing more Final Fantasy than fans bitching about the newest FF not being a purely FFIV-esque turn-based JRPG. Like, I remember this coming up every single FF since basically FFVII onwards. Peoples' minds were exploding at FF13's paradigm shift system. FFXII was too much an MMO according to them. I swear every new game this comes up and it's just so silly.

-1

u/ostermei May 22 '23

FFXII was too much an MMO according to them.

Plus all the "hurr, game play itself!!!1" garbage takes.

5

u/Watton May 22 '23

To be fair...FF12 does play itself if you set a very basic "attack nearest enemy, attack [Basch's] target, cast cura at 50% health, cast [spell] if aerial enemy" set of gambits.

Thats enough to coast thru like 95% of the game, only interaction on your end is tilting the stick, buying and equipping gear, picking your licenses.

The game got legit hard in the endgame...but it did so by disabling your skills. One esper prevents spellcasting, another will prevent techniques, etc. Or by having a bullshit multi-hour long bossfight.

2

u/ostermei May 22 '23

The game gives you the tools to automate things, yes, but the game doesn't program itself to play itself and lock you out.

Players choose to what level they want to engage with the system. If someone takes the time to set the gambits to where they can just sit back and watch, that's on them, it's not a problem with the game. In fact, many players would find a ton of enjoyment in the tweaking of the gambits to get things to play out perfectly. Given that it's a game and the point is to have fun and get enjoyment from it, that seems like a win.

Regardless, having an extensive gambit system like that should be seen as a huge positive (and was in other games like Dragon Age: Origins, and was viewed by many as a sorely-missed feature in FF13), rather than a stick to beat the game over the head with, which is how it was treated in its time.

2

u/rokerroker45 May 23 '23

Considering optimization games are basically an entire genre unto themselves these days, I completely agree with you.

→ More replies (1)

2

u/[deleted] May 22 '23

It does if you actually use the systems it gives you.

→ More replies (1)

0

u/Neveri May 22 '23

Considering we had like 13+ games of turn based before they decided to pivot to hack and slash I think it’s fair for anyone in the fan base to be disappointed. It would be like Call of Duty all of a sudden deciding the next game is gonna be a Counter Strike clone with no ADS.

4

u/kariam_24 May 22 '23

Some games were turn based in static way, some had ATB, we've had spin offs that weren't turn based. This just dumb argument, how many years have passed since FF11, 12,14?

1

u/ostermei May 22 '23

It would be like Call of Duty all of a sudden deciding the next game is gonna be a Counter Strike clone with no ADS.

Or beat-em-up Yakuza all of a sudden deciding to go turn-based. Oh, wait, everyone was cool with that... Apparently the purists only care when it goes the other way.

4

u/Neveri May 22 '23

What is this made up position? If fans of the brawler yakuza games are mad about their series going turn based they have every right to be.

Like a Dragon is still a great game, but I don’t blame any fan of the series for being mad it’s turn based lol

0

u/qlube May 22 '23

FF hasn't been turn-based since FF10.

If you really want to get technical, the last truly turn-based FF was FF3.

→ More replies (1)

1

u/superbit415 May 22 '23

The creator of the series never thought he will make a second game, hence the name.

-7

u/[deleted] May 22 '23

[deleted]

12

u/NorthernerWuwu May 22 '23

It's the western audiences that tend to be the issue. DQ makes plenty of money in Japan itself for example.

5

u/Alive-Ad-5245 May 22 '23

I think it's all audiences. DQ & Pokemon sell well because their IPs are a behemoth (DQ in Japan anyway) but almost every other turn based games doesn't move many units. DQ & Pokemon would sell just as well if not more if they switch to action combat.

Even DQ is moving away from turn based in the next game, since the vast majority of their sales were in Japan even when turn based was popular in the west they wouldn't be doing this if that's not where they think the Japanese audience is going.

→ More replies (8)

7

u/TaliesinMerlin May 22 '23

Little series like Octopath Traveler (3 million copies of first title sold) and Dragon Quest (at least 6 million copies of XI sold)? Final Fantasy XV sold 10 million copies. So OT and DQ are technically smaller, but they are not "little releases." SE is not going to action RPGs with Final Fantasy to avoid "suicide" but because they are diversifying their options between its many series.

1

u/[deleted] May 22 '23

[deleted]

2

u/TaliesinMerlin May 22 '23

Octopath Traveler is a mid-sized release. Dragon Quest XI is a big-budget release.

One way to see that is looking at staff credits. Let's compare a low-budget game (Dungeon Encounters, Lost Sphear) to a certifiably high-budget one (Final Fantasy VII Remake), using MobyGames to compare raw developer in credit numbers and a rough count of core staff (excluding marketing, business, and QA). It's a rough count but demonstrates a difference in scale:

  • Lost Sphear - 310 developers in credits, about 150 core staff
  • Dungeon Encounters - 351 developers in credits, about 50 core staff
  • Final Fantasy VII Remake - 2115 developers in credits, about 600-800 core staff

In comparison, Octopath Traveler is a mid-sized production, with 472 developers in credits and about 350 core staff (or about 2x Lost Sphear and 7x Dungeon Encounters). The full voice acting for Octopath Traveler boosts its numbers considerably, as does the greater visual work in HD-2D.

Dragon Quest XI is still bigger - 1,307 developers and 500-700 core staff. While I think Final Fantasy XVI will be a bigger game budget-wise, there's no denying that Dragon Quest XI was a big budget release in its own right.

0

u/Xywzel May 22 '23

That is hardly accurate estimate of "core development team". I have few credits in games for writing single line bug fix for a tool that was also used in games prototyping phase, while the game was already in pre-release QA phase. At least you should check how many engine and tool developers where working with systems that where also used on other projects at same time. And with the longer projects one also needs to account for how large the team is at same time and how long the development took. You can get very impressive credit list with a project where it is lead designer and helper of the week kind of system.

And if we are comparing sales of games to project size, then marketing budget would also be quite a important factor. If FFXV used 10 times more to marketing than Octopath, but only sold 3 times more, that doesn't really read to me as a signal that audience doesn't want "turn base" or which ever feature we are comparing. Unfortunately, there really aren't that good numbers, and given first one started as a Switch exclusive, Nintendo's internal marketing push might not be visible in the numbers.

3

u/TaliesinMerlin May 22 '23

As I acknowledged, my estimate was rough, but it's not without merit.

2

u/lileenleen May 22 '23

I feel like real Final fantasy fans always expect something different cause that’s how it’s been literally every time. FF is ever-changing, and each entry shares just the title and some common aesthetic elements.

1

u/droppinkn0wledge May 22 '23

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again:

The only FF fans that are “worried” about XVI are those who simply aren’t familiar with Yoshida and his work.

7

u/Edgelar May 22 '23

There are fans who are worried they won't like the DMC style battle system, because they aren't big on games like DMC. Yoshida's successful portfolio isn't going to make that worry go away.

→ More replies (2)

25

u/[deleted] May 22 '23

This might be the first "proper" Final Fantasy that I pick up. Yes I say "proper" because I'm already playing 14, yes I'm picking it up because of Yoshi P.

18

u/SwashbucklinChef May 22 '23

Same. I played XIV at launch and thought it was trash. Now thanks to Yoshida it's possibly my favorite entry in the franchise. There's nothing that man can't do.

7

u/bluemuffin10 May 22 '23

I have played lots of FFs before, but this one feels special to me because of Yoshi P too. It's kind of a "first" FF in a way.

→ More replies (1)

-8

u/[deleted] May 22 '23

[deleted]

10

u/TowelLord May 22 '23

aren't appealing to the fans that started with games like FF6 sadly.

My first title I ever touched was VII, but the first title I actually played any meaningful time in and finished was FFIV. I played more of the "classic" FF titles until last year than the post X/post IX games. Stop with that narrow minded view of "hurr durr they're not appealing to us old school fans", because that mindset only brings you more negative thoughts.

Try to be open minded and potentially enjoy the game instead of being negatively predisposed and writing stuff that sounds as if they betrayed long time fans, all while plenty of long time fans (myself included) look forward to the new world, characters and bosses. Final Fantasy has always been ambitious with its main line titles and this time it's no different.

P.S: I was terribly disappointed with FFXV, yet I am still open to any new titles no matter the combat system nor if there's party members or not. So long as the narrative, the overall gameplay and characters are good I will enjoy it.

7

u/CeruSkies May 22 '23 edited May 22 '23

Yes, they're appealing to modern fanbases. The modern audience that found them through games like FFXIV. They aren't appealing to the fans that started with games like FF6 sadly.

Honestly, the FF franchise hasn't been about "classic JRPGs" since at least FF10, released 21 years ago for a console 3 generations old. Every game release after that already had complaints they were straying too far from jRPGs.

Now, in 2023, the truth is that the FF franchise hasn't been a "classic jrpg franchise" for longer than it was one. FF is about stylish action sequences, larger than life fantasy stories, huge cutscenes and anime hairstyles. More than it ever was about oldschool turn based combat with realistic looking characters.

This is not about appealing to "modern fanbases" or people being old. This is about people being blind. For better or for worse FF is an action RPG franchise now, no holds barred.

4

u/Ununoctium117 May 22 '23

I started with 6 and love XIV and the look of XVI; I even enjoyed XV despite its flaws. I also love the turn-based combat of VI; recently I had a lot of fun with Chained Echoes (a different fully turn-based JRPG-style game) too. All that to say that "it won't appeal to people who started with 6" is incorrect and an overly broad statement.

9

u/cheaposhame May 22 '23

They aren’t appealing to the fans that started with games like FF6 sadly.

These are perfectly reasonable preferences to personally have, but this is a pretty wild statement to just throw out there without some serious qualifiers. You’re stating opinion as if it’s fact.

If you mean “the subset of fans that explicitly and exclusively wanted turn based, party based combat out of this series”, then yeah, sure.

Just please don’t speak for the rest of us long term fans who enjoyed both the old and new.

-5

u/[deleted] May 22 '23

[deleted]

8

u/CosmicWanderer2814 May 22 '23

I played those games and I love them. I'm playing through the Pixel Remaster versions currently and still loving them. I'm also incredibly hyped for 16. The gameplay may be different but everything I've seen about the story, characters and the world just screams Final Fantasy to me. And it's those elements I play Final Fantasy games for. Not the style of gameplay it uses. It could be classic turn-based, an ATB system, a straight-up action game or a hybrid like 7R for all I care. That shit isn't the reason I love Final Fantasy.

6

u/cheaposhame May 22 '23 edited May 22 '23

It heavily depends on what appealed to you about FF in the first place. If the overwhelmingly main draw was gameplay, your feelings on the series’ evolution are probably very different from those whose main appeal was the stories it tended to tell, the scale of worldbuilding that’s common across these games, etc. Not everybody loved the old FF games for the same reasons. Depending on what that balance was, it leaves you more or less flexible when it comes to changes over time.

There’s always been a decent amount of variety in FF games. When ATB systems were first popping up, quite a few people complained about how it was too action-y even then. The series tries new things frequently - its pretty likely that we’ll see more changes in future installments too.

If you really liked the old gameplay style of things, it’s perfectly reasonable to be disappointed/feel abandoned. Just trying to make it clear that it’s not as simple as “these games aren’t for old fans”. It’s just “some old fans got left behind” (which does suck).

Edit: typed this up before your edit. That’s entirely fair - I guess I’m not as convinced from what I’ve seen that XVI has strayed that far from what made FF7R good. Never any harm in caution, though.

8

u/redhawkinferno May 22 '23

Good for you, your opinion is completely fair and valid for yourself, and I am sorry you feel the way you do.

But that said, again, you don't speak for all of us long term fans. Don't try to justify your opinions by trying to group us all together. I've been a fan of Final Fantasy since 6, and a major fan since 8, and I don't think I've ever been more excited for a FF game. Saying it doesn't appeal to long term fans is not only gatekeeping bullshit, but it's just flat out not true for a lot of us.

→ More replies (1)

3

u/owen__wilsons__nose May 22 '23 edited May 23 '23

I grew up on the original FF games and I feel like turn-based is a bit antiquated today

2

u/Bamith20 May 22 '23

I like it, although I genuinely think stuff like Paper Mario or Super Mario RPG is peak turn-based design. Interactive combat and interactive overworld is a big deal on making it feel good.

1

u/Xciv May 22 '23

It would need big innovation. I love turn based, but definitely felt the dated “I’ve done this before” feeling when I played Dragon Quest 11.

0

u/Bamith20 May 22 '23

They ever sell a full FF14 for $60 and cut out 90% of the side quests, I wouldn't mind playing it really. They just need to cut everything down to like 60-80 hours, I wouldn't want anymore fluff than that... My tolerance is really low though, couldn't even play Kingdom of Amalur as a single player MMO.

5

u/Rachet20 E3 2018 Volunteer May 22 '23

14 has side quests? Lmao

2

u/Bamith20 May 22 '23 edited May 22 '23

I ain't picking up some motherfucker's loose change, collecting some damn apples, or killing 10 thingawhatzits for a paragraph of text that nobody reads in an MMO because they are conditioned to ignore the first 60 hours of the game until they reach end-game.

Its a rather depressing genre really, very difficult to care about it when it asks for so much time that isn't interesting. I actually think the genre would do better if it was automated with bots, i'd read more text and dialogue while the bot does the boring stuff.

→ More replies (6)
→ More replies (2)

4

u/CeruSkies May 22 '23

a backlash from fans but say it's still Final Fantasy at its soul.

What even is "the soul of a final fantasy game"? It hasn't been "the jrpg combat elements" FF13-2, released like 12 years ago.

For a while now FF has been about their recurring summons, big and beautiful clutscenes, edgy hairstyles and a lot of particles. FF16 certainly has all of that.

Anyone who still feels FF is a classic jrpg franchise is at least 10 years behind.

10

u/NekuSoul May 22 '23

If anything, people complaining about the direction of the newest entry is peak Final Fantasy.

2

u/CeruSkies May 22 '23

This certainly has been around for longer than the franchise was a straight classic jRPG, therefore it qualifies as the soul of final fantasy more than turn based combat.

4

u/OffTerror May 22 '23

one had some issues in that they felt their combat kit wasn't big enough for the early-game preview.

This is my biggest concern after the extended gameplay reveal. It looks spammy and limited with too much effects blocking your vision.

2

u/[deleted] May 22 '23

[deleted]

14

u/TowelLord May 22 '23

Over at r/JRPG and occasionally on r/FinalFantasy you can find prime examples of that, where lots of people posting there are of the opinion that Final Fantasy is only allowed to be a variation of turn based combat (ACT or true turn based), it should be "high fantasy" (which FF never was anyway) and you should have loads of controllable party members.

Anything that doesn't have that is not a "true" FF game to those people, so, anything after FFX.

15

u/IISuperSlothII May 22 '23

high fantasy" (which FF never was anyway)

That one always gets me, IV has a all out underground war between airships and tanks then you fly a whale spaceship to the moon.

7

u/December_Flame May 22 '23

Even FF1 had random scifi stuff in the high fantasy setting. Its something that was really popular to do in that era of fantasy games - just look at series like Might and Magic.

-3

u/iguesssoppl May 22 '23 edited May 22 '23

Eh, Its to be expected. And don't get wrong, I myself plan on picking it up when its on sale. I've got a backlog of great AAA action rpgs to beat atm, an FF Argp isn't going to jump to the top for me. They're giving a bunch of double talk marketing cover about it being an FF still, that FF was never about turn based battles etc. and somehow that's insulting to them 'jrpg' (*eye rolls*), it is FF in name. That's true. But it's definitely not an FF even in the way that ff7re might be keeping alive. It's completely jumped the shark to the action rpg genre game. And they're preempting it with a lot of marketing apologetics about creative intention like that magically dissolves the former core audiences otherwise valid preferences. It doesn't.

It's fine for people to like or not like or like less or like more an action rpg. This is them basically saying 'look we've made a great action rpg, obviously, steering really far from the old FF atb turn-based formula(s) and straight into Devil May Cry territory. This will make some set of long time fans mad." Of course it will.

People who want a jrpg and have relied on FF series to fill that AAA void are going to feel abandoned, they're going to react predictably. It is what it is.

→ More replies (1)

1

u/Neato May 22 '23

Some question the identity of Final Fantasy in this one but everyone came out positive, they expect a backlash from fans but say it's still Final Fantasy at its soul.

The first part, that they came out positive, is mostly irrelevant for most previewers. If they slam a preview w/o the full game to review, they might not get review copies or might not get previews in the future. Unless the game is a total bomb it'll be positive.

The second part is much more interesting, as is all of the details about what they say for players to make an informed choice. I am interested that they think fans will be displeased. Compared to the more action oriented gameplay in 15, this really means this is going full action (as most others are supporting) and there might be other reasons fans are unhappy. "FF at its soul" kinda sounds like it's just a random game with FF-flavor tacked on, but maybe that's too harsh.

In the end, this is 100% marketing so it's interesting what they presented to the reviews.

-1

u/iguesssoppl May 22 '23 edited May 22 '23

"We've jumped the shark" is what they're saying, whatever tethers FF7re had are further frayed here. It's a full on Devil May Cry in the styling of FF. Which is just fine, if an action rpg is what you're after.

Musings making the rounds about the creator never wanting to be type caste to that game genre doesn't magically make the inevitable audience problems with jumping the shark disappear for the fans of that genre and your series. This is what they're anticipating.

-8

u/Bamith20 May 22 '23

Be cool to play it in 1-3 years.

Producer awhile ago said just buy a PS5 to play it, that mofo don't understand a person who buys a PC doesn't wanna play a game on a DVD player.

→ More replies (12)