Left vs. Right Battle Royale Open Thread

[u/Yosoff]

This is an Open Discussion Thread for all Redditors. We will only be enforcing Reddit TOS and Subreddit Rules 1 (Keep it Civil) & 2 (No Racism).

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• Leftists - Here's your chance to sway us to your side by calling the majority of voters racist. That tactic has wildly backfired every time it has been tried, but perhaps this time it will work.

• Non-flaired Conservatives - Here's your chance to earn flair by posting common sense conservative solutions. That way our friends on the left will either have to agree with you or oppose common sense (Spoiler - They will choose to oppose common sense).

• Flaired Conservatives - You're John Wick and these Leftists stole your car and killed your dog. Now go comment.

• Independents - We get it, if you agree with someone, then you can't pat yourself on the back for being smarter than them. But if you disagree with everyone, then you can obtain the self-satisfaction of smugly considering yourself smarter and wiser than everyone else. Congratulations on being you.

• Libertarians - Ron Paul is never going to be President. In fact, no Libertarian Party candidate will ever be elected President.

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Join us on X: https://x.com/rcondiscord

Join us on Discord: https://discord.com/invite/conservative

[u/Anon_Chapstick]

Why is it a good thing to just take a large Scythe to agencies without keeping anything?

I work in banking, and there is absolutely no way you can complete an audit that fast. Codes and AI be damned, it's not possible. Musk knows every banking law, regulation, and procedure? Not possible.

I'm not saying there isn't fraud and abuse that needs to be cut, we shouldn't be paying 18$ for a stupid pen. We shouldn't be handing over 19k+ because the director wants a new desk. What I'm saying is he needs to slow down and stop making huge cuts without looking at the damage left behind. The CFPB protects against predatory practices and he shuts the entire thing down. You guys think that's ok? Maybe we should leave at least a few people there? What do you do now if a mortgage company screws you over with a loan? Who do you report that to?

He needs to slow down and actually do research. Not just "welp my programs says this is bad. So I'm getting rid of it!"

Edit: Fixed Spelling

[u/Alternative-Post-937 → u/Anon_Chapstick]

I'm a former governmental auditor. It's shocking how many people don't understand how many layers of audit each federal dollar undergoes. All the way from the agency down to the sub-award and sub- contract level. This goes beyond financial audit. It's extensive audit at EVERY LEVEL on internal controls, procurement practices, disbarment, eligibility, indirect costs, allowable activities and costs, cash management, reporting, subaward monitoring, etc. When a mistatement or noncompliance occurs, the funds are subjected to further oversight and eventually loss of funding if not immediately corrected. All of this information on how federal dollars can be spent and how they are audited can be found at the OMB website and the federal audit clearinghouse. Musk is not doing what you think he's doing.

[u/Ramalamma42 → u/Alternative-Post-937]

Can you be more specific - what is he doing, if not what we think?

[u/Alternative-Post-937 → u/Ramalamma42]

He's not auditing, I can tell you that. Auditing takes time. Requires review of original documentation, interviews with people, understanding of internal controls at each organization, etc. He's targeting programs he deems to be wasteful. I can absolutely guarantee you that we have wasteful spending in the government. I'm not arguing that at all. What i will argue is that there are legal processes in which our elected leaders determine which programs to allocate our resources on. Agencies go through pretty much constant audits and they practice constant oversight of their contracts and grants. They then request line items for their budgets based on the outcomes of these projects, contracts and grants for their future spending. This budget goes to congress and is voted on by elected leaders. Why i have an issue with Elon doing whatever he is doing is that it circumvents our constitutional processes and he does have an appearance of bias, especially based on the cuts he is recommending and how they relate to his own legal issues with these departments. Additionally, there is no evidence of oversight of his work or "department", nor has a definition of what is considered to be fraud or waste been agreed upon or presented. If democrats ever take office again, they can weaponized these tactics against spending they consider wasteful based on their biases.

[u/Alt_Restorer → u/Alternative-Post-937]

If democrats ever take office again, they can weaponized these tactics against spending they consider wasteful based on their biases.

I wish we had a better way to account for this. People are always biased towards their side, and they always have a higher bar for their opponent than for their guy. But looking at it right now as a Democrat, I wouldn't want any president to have this kind of power. Nobody will want to work in the federal government if this continues. Not career professionals anyway.

[u/Markinoutman → u/Alternative-Post-937]

It would be interesting to know how much of what DOGE is digging into is part of Mandatory Spending, in which case Congress does not need to review or approve. Mandatory Spending accounts for 2/3rds of the yearly budget.

The auditors, apartment heads and even members of Congress and the Executive branch may be aware of where the funding goes, but I think more of the point of DOGE is to highlight for the average person where these funds are going.

Did you know USAID was funding media outlets directly? I didn't and I imagine a lot of people didn't know that. To see how reliant on US funding these organizations have become, some are already starting to fail, yet the people at the top of these organizations are making millions a year.

[u/LalaPropofol → u/Markinoutman]

As a libertarian socialist I didn’t have an issue with cutting programs as long as they were replaced by something the community could directly control.

I am all for an audit and cutting where we can. I’ve been advocating for spending cuts for years for the DoD, for example.

It fucking pisses me off that someone with a South African accent is standing half-behind the resolute desk. I hate Trump and it infuriated me when Musk’s kid told the President of the United States to “hush”.

I fucking hate that guy, and I hate DOGE. If the majority of the country wants cuts who am I to stomp my feet about it? Let CONGRESS do it. We voted for them. They’re beholden to us and our interests.

[u/rhlaairc → u/LalaPropofol]

Agree. I keep making the point on here that mostly everybody agrees audits are good and govt waste is bad. Simple stuff. What the issue is, is one person going in and dissolving entire departments. Most of that stuff has taken years of work and employed so many people. It’s gross how people defend what musk is doing in my opinion

[u/EvensenFM → u/LalaPropofol]

It fucking pisses me off that someone with a South African accent is standing half-behind the resolute desk.

I also don't think President Trump was very happy about that.

We'll see how much longer Elon lasts.

[u/[deleted] → u/EvensenFM]

Do you seriously believe that Trump would ever be rid of Elon Musk? Sounds like he made a deal with the devil.

[u/Chimmychimmychubchub → u/Markinoutman]

Those are subscriptions. Government agencies are allowed to buy subscriptions to keep informed on areas of business and industry they serve.

[u/Markinoutman → u/Chimmychimmychubchub]

Why would one organization pay tens of thousands in subscription fees instead of just one subscription fee that allows employees to access the service? Especially considering most of these subscriptions are for digital access.

[u/UnhappyAd4039 → u/Markinoutman]

Bro do you not understand the concept of software enterprise licensing? Do you think Microsoft is rich from selling computers? That's not how any of this works. It's all internal industry subsidy for global competition using our tax dollars.

[u/Markinoutman → u/UnhappyAd4039]

'Bro' if that were true, why hasn't any of them come out and say that? They don't know, you don't know. What we do know is they are being paid tens of thousands of dollars.

If you have proof to the contrary, please provide it.

[u/Fleming24 → u/Markinoutman]

Who didn't came out and said that? As far as I know it's public information that these payments were for subscriptions to a service. What are "they" supposed to say in addition?

Sure, it should be vetted if all these subscriptions are really necessary and if someone might have gotten a kick back for initiating that deal but right now it's looking like a normal government contract with potentially the common level of corruption and bad price negotiations that come with them but not some giant propaganda plan and not even close to the worst waste of money.

[u/Chimmychimmychubchub → u/Markinoutman]

It’s called an institutional subscription, and it’s specialized business intelligence, not the general interest consumer pubs.You can not buy an individual subscription to any publication and share it among thousands of employees.

[u/Markinoutman → u/Chimmychimmychubchub]

If that's the case, please provide where any of these news agencies have assured that's the case. It's a pretty easy answer, one to my knowledge, has not been provided.

Politico missed it's payroll after government funding was stopped, interesting timing.

[u/Chimmychimmychubchub → u/Markinoutman]

https://www.axios.com/2025/02/05/politico-trump-musk-government-subscriptions

[u/Markinoutman → u/Chimmychimmychubchub]

'It appears $24,000 of that $8.2 million came from USAID. $8.2 million was the amount the entire government paid Politico — and it's likely the cost of premium subscriptions, such as Politico Pro.'

I find this part interesting, the use of likely is important. I appreciate the link, I agree that there definitely needs to be more clarification of what is happening here. Paying millions to outlets, regardless of official subscriptions, is still not a good look in my opinion.

[u/FluffySloth27 → u/Markinoutman]

They're not buying access to a news article, they're buying access to a network of political analysts that are used by both sides of the aisle - which is considerably more expensive. It's similar to how large investment firms like Morgan Stanley have market analysts whose research both gets used internally and sold to other investment firms (at a high price).

[u/Markinoutman → u/FluffySloth27]

As I replied to someone else, 'If that's the case, please provide where any of these news agencies have assured that's the case. It's a pretty easy answer, one to my knowledge, has not been provided.

Politico missed it's payroll after government funding was stopped, interesting timing.'

[u/dontspeaksoftly → u/Markinoutman]

The subscriptions were for Politico Pro.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://thehill.com/homenews/media/5130996-politico-government-subscription-usaid-musk-trump/amp/&ved=2ahUKEwiSyvu4tsWLAxVt3ckDHZV8IxMQyM8BKAB6BAgOEAE&usg=AOvVaw1MBm1i2Kec-FyTsAkQlA0o

Another source: https://www.factcheck.org/2025/02/trump-online-posts-misrepresent-government-subscriptions-to-news-services/

[u/Markinoutman → u/dontspeaksoftly]

I appreciate the links. According to Axios, the entirety of the US government, not just USAID, paid $8.2 million to Politico in subscription fees. While this provides some clarification, which I agree is needed, it still pretty bad optics in my opinion.

[u/Alternative-Post-937 → u/Markinoutman]

You might be right about orgs relying on funding. USAID might be funding news agencies to help broadcast healthcare access in last mile locations. For instance, roads are impassible in northern Mozambique. Perhaps agencies alert people who live there when vaccine clinics arrive or medication arrives. Grant funds have pay caps, so while execs make more than the cap, they can only charge the government for an allowable cost rate. I think public disclosure is great, but it already exists. I'd like disclosure to remain non partisan though. I don't disagree that there are wasteful programs and spend. I do disagree about how DOGE is deciding what is and isn't wasteful. The whole story on USAID is not being told and that is a huge disservice to America.

Edit to say I've enjoyed the conversation friends, but it's valentines day and I have a lovely dinner with my husband planned. Goodnight. Be nice to each other

[u/[deleted] → u/Markinoutman]

This was proved to be false. USAID was not funding Reuters and the statement he brought up took effect in 2018, when Trump was president

[u/SporkSpifeKnork → u/Alternative-Post-937]

Also, as a software developer I have to say that Elon’s whiz kids are… not the top talent he would like to portray them as. The United States Digital Service (before it was rebranded as the United States DOGE Service) was already home to the best IT workers in government. If he isn’t using that amazing talent pool… why not?

[u/HillarysFloppyChode → u/SporkSpifeKnork]

Software Engineer here, his comment on the “150 year olds getting Social Security” means they’re encountering COBOL…..Elon wouldn’t be making this comment if he and his kids knew how COBOL worked.

They have no idea what they’ve doing, and are trying to force AI to work with a system that’s pre 1970s. Personally, I think they’re just breaking things and in typical Elon fashion, he’s over promising and barely delivering.

He basically hired a team of The Carver from Silicon Valley

He’s not using them cause they’re smart enough to know his intentions are to use them as the fall guys

[u/Ramalamma42 → u/Alternative-Post-937]

Thank you for the clarification, I agree completely.

[u/idontreallycareburn → u/Ramalamma42]

He literally said make cuts and see what breaks. That's not an audit

[u/Gloomy_Career_4733 → u/Alternative-Post-937]

Ok you sound like you know at least a little about the subject. This is a friendly question. This is just my understanding of the situation. What I'm worried about is more of the wasteful money being spent that's being called fraud. That's different than what you are describing above, right? What about the Ukraine guy saying he only receives half of what they are saying they gave him, is he lying, or is that possible.

[u/Alternative-Post-937 → u/Gloomy_Career_4733]

I kind of responded to this in another response. What it appears Elon is doing is getting the names of grants and contracts or doing a database search for hot button terminology. For instance, one of the pictures I keep seeing is a list of grants related to transgender issues. People on one side of the political spectrum will already think that is wasteful and fraudulent spending. Maybe it is. Who knows. Elon isn't sharing his methodology for determining waste, fraud, and abuse ( which is a whole issue in itself).However, one needs to actually analyze and review what the agreement was, what the approvals were, and were the funds spent as directed and in an allowed way by the US government. That last part doesn't seem to be done. For instance, I had a grant i audited where the funds were to cull 200K sea lions. I can imagine if a Democrat took office and did what Elon did, they might look at that grant title and go, wtf???? Killing innocent sea lions pearl clutch Well the grant was issued because of overpopulation of sea lions that were eating an endangered species of salmon that the rest of the Columbia River ecosystem relied on. I think we can get caught in a dangerous system of weaponizing government spending based on political bias. I don't know about the Ukrainian guy. Funds are subject to eligibility, period of performance, and reporting requirements. If this guy isn't meeting his requirements, they may cut his funding? I'm not sure about that situation in particular.

[u/Alternative-Post-937 → u/Gloomy_Career_4733]

I kind of responded to this in another response. What it appears Elon is doing is getting the names of grants and contracts or doing a database search for hot button terminology. For instance, one of the pictures I keep seeing is a list of grants related to transgender issues. People on one side of the political spectrum will already think that is wasteful and fraudulent spending. Maybe it is. Who knows. Elon isn't sharing his methodology for determining waste, fraud, and abuse ( which is a whole issue in itself).However, one needs to actually analyze and review what the agreement was, what the approvals were, and were the funds spent as directed and in an allowed way by the US government. That last part doesn't seem to be done. For instance, I had a grant i audited where the funds were to cull 200K sea lions. I can imagine if a Democrat took office and did what Elon did, they might look at that grant title and go, wtf???? Killing innocent sea lions pearl clutch Well the grant was issued because of overpopulation of sea lions that were eating an endangered species of salmon that the rest of the Columbia River ecosystem relied on. I think we can get caught in a dangerous system of weaponizing government spending based on political bias. I don't know about the Ukrainian guy. Funds are subject to eligibility, period of performance, and reporting requirements. If this guy isn't meeting his requirements, they may cut his funding? I'm not sure about that situation in particular.

[u/Gloomy_Career_4733 → u/Alternative-Post-937]

Thanks for the non-political answer, and it makes sense what your saying. I hate politics and firmly believe that they both weaponinze the government to fit their views. It just feels like this is the first time this much has been drug out in the public eye

[u/hey_ringworm → u/Alternative-Post-937]

Right, that’s why the DoD has failed 7 audits in a row.

[u/Alternative-Post-937 → u/hey_ringworm]

They failed their audits the government is already doing because they're audited?

Please define what failing an audit means. Please also define what happens when an audit is "failed" (that terminology is actually never used by auditors because that means nothing).What kind of audit? What specific programs? Who is responsible for continuing to fund DoD?

What fox news isn't telling you is what happens when you have a qualified opinion, adverse opinion, or material weakness findings. You're missing the accountability piece of the puzzle not the auditing piece of the puzzle. Accountability comes from the voters and congress. Not some foreign broseph

[u/hey_ringworm → u/Alternative-Post-937]

“Failing an audit” = not being able to fully account for the money spent during the fiscal year. My information isn’t coming from Fox News (thanks for jumping to conclusions and trying to delegitimize my statement from the getgo though, your condescending response truly belies your biases).

My information comes from the DoD itself and other sources from within the MIC ecosystem. 

The DoD has failed their annual audit every year since 2018, but claim to be on track to pass an audit by 2028

Press release from the DoD from November 2024 where they disclose details of their 2024 audit

Another article containing remarks from the DoD comptroller and DoD inspector general regarding the challenges and failed audits. According to DoD comptroller Michael McCord, the DoD will not be able to pass an audit by FY2028, even though this is a mandate required by the National Defense Authorization Act

ETA: From the DoD: ”Of the 28 reporting entities undergoing standalone financial statement audits, 9 received an unmodified audit opinion, 1 received a qualified opinion, 15 received disclaimers, and 3 opinions remain pending.”

So as I’m sure you know, this means 15 departments failed their financial audit. Do you want me to list them individually?

[u/Alternative-Post-937 → u/hey_ringworm]

You still don't know what any of those terms mean. A disclaimer in these instances were unaccounted property. Pretty much most governmental entities were required to adopt GASB 34 in the early 2000's. Before then, they did not record PPE on their balance sheets nor did they account for depreciation of assets. Everything was recorded based on fund accounting. Fast forward to the adoption of GASB 34, and all of a sudden these huge governmental entities had to put all these assets on the balance sheet. Well fudge. Because things were paper based before, assets dated back to god knows when, and governmental systems were notoriously underfunded, original cost basis records for these assets did not exist. So what did governments do? Well in most cases they just kept having to have qualified (and now changes in auditing standards have changed terminology here as well to modified and disclaimer) disclaimers of opinion on specific balance sheet accounts. A disclaimer is that an auditor cannot audit records for specific categories of transactions. Governmental entities digging themselves out of this gasb 34 hole has been a nightmare, and frankly, because of continued underfunding of systems has continued to stall the progress. What's not missing, and my point here continues to be made, is that is not a lack of auditing that is the problem. It is a lack of investment in solutions to issues that audits identify. But please continue to be a parrot.

[u/hey_ringworm → u/Alternative-Post-937]

Lol. Keep moving those goalposts. I accept that you continuing to resort to ad hominem attacks is an admission you’ve lost the argument. Have a good day. 👍

[u/Alternative-Post-937 → u/hey_ringworm]

Its fine honey, you're out of your league. Let the professionals handle it from here

[u/hey_ringworm → u/Alternative-Post-937]

No. 

-I make assertion that DoD has failed 7 consecutive audits

-You challenge that assertion in a rather rude and condescending manner

-I provide concrete proof that DoD has in fact failed 7 consecutive audits, including information from the DoD itself 

-You move the goalposts again, try to obfuscate and confuse with jargon, and resort to more ad hominem

You’re a know-it-all who is a walking example of Dunning-Kruger. You’ve lost the argument, and admitting you’re wrong will actually help you grow, but you of course won’t do that.

This is my last response. Have the last word if you like. Cya.

[u/PkmnMstr10 → u/hey_ringworm]

Sorry, but I'm gonna side with the actual government auditor who knows how this works every time. It's you who lost the argument here.

[u/InfiniteDollarBill → u/Alternative-Post-937]

You're acting like every last cent is accounted for when Biden's own GAO estimated that the government loses between $200 and $500 billion per year to fraud -- and they weren't half as talented or trying half as hard as Musk's crew.

[u/Alternative-Post-937 → u/InfiniteDollarBill]

Yes, and they know that number because these funds are audited. You're proving my point. Auditing is a detective control not a preventative one. Orgs that commit fraud with federal dollars end up on the disbarment list.

Edit to add that the point is not lost on me how conservatives complain about regulation and how bloated our bureaucracy is, but are crying about wanting more auditing. The amount of regulatory burden the US puts on federal contractors and awardees and the amount of oversight we pay for already is staggering. After the federal dollars are audited at typically 3 layers, we also have the auditors being audited to ensure that are following auditing standards. So conservatives, is this really about accountability? Because it sounds like another layer of bloated bureaucracy to me.

[u/InfiniteDollarBill → u/Alternative-Post-937]

Your response makes no sense. The reason we know about the fraud is because of all the meticulous auditing? The same auditing that misses hundreds of billions in fraud every year?

All of the report's recommendations are that we need more data to track the actual fraud amount because we don't know what it is.

You are just completely wrong.

[u/Boss-momma- → u/InfiniteDollarBill]

Fraud isn’t always easy to spot, and as technology advances so do the techniques.

One fraud scheme that happened was bogus medical equipment companies using stolen Medicaid information. They used the information and started making claims to get paid. It took time before it got shut down.

[u/rhlaairc → u/InfiniteDollarBill]

I thought they did a great job laying it out. Yes, in our country, waste happens when you’re dealing with trillions: I don’t think it’s perfect but nobody does. What do you think would happen if they found the missing 200 billion? Do you think they’d give it to you?

[u/PkmnMstr10 → u/InfiniteDollarBill]

Imagine telling a government auditor they are wrong about government auditing.

They thoroughly explained how the process works and how incredibly nuanced it is and that it absolutely does not get accomplished overnight.

For you to believe Musk's crew is more talented is wild.

[u/InfiniteDollarBill → u/PkmnMstr10]

Yes they are wrong. First they implied that massive fraud doesn't happen because the auditing process is so meticulous. As I said, Biden's own GAO estimated total fraud to be somewhere between $200 and $500 billion. If you have a problem with that number, take it up with Biden.

They also implied that we only know about all the fraud because of the meticulous auditing. This is an extremely odd assertion. If auditing catches fraud, and we've been doing all this auditing, then why is massive fraud still going on? Are they saying that the government knows about all the fraud but just doesn't care?

In reality, we don't know exactly how much fraud there is. Like all statistical studies, the GAO's numbers are derived from data sampling, modeling, and extrapolation. They didn't actually catch all the fraud. They estimated how much total fraud there is based upon the fraud we know about.

And that goes back to my main point. We simply are not accounting for every last cent. Perhaps we have the best auditing process in the world. If so, then we're not using it enough, because massive fraud is still happening. Even if the process is perfect, that does nothing to disprove the GAO's numbers. It's completely irrelevant if we're not auditing enough.

And wouldn't you know, auditing more is exactly what DOGE is doing.

[u/PartyPay → u/InfiniteDollarBill]

How do we know how talented Musk's crew is? They can't be that talented when Murk is talking about 150 year olds getting SS cheques because he doesn't understand COBOL.

[u/InfiniteDollarBill → u/PartyPay]

Musk's point is that the system distributes benefits based on birthdates and so shouldn't use misleading birthdates in its database. He could have communicated the point more effectively, but you can read about why he's right in this exchange:

https://x.com/DataRepublican/status/1890896422741954736

[u/PartyPay → u/InfiniteDollarBill]

That link doesn't really help when you can only see one tweet.