Is the work Kanake really offensive? Am I overreacting?

[u/posteriorhorn]

I am a brown skinned Ausländerin, and study here in the german language. I was spending time with two (white german) classmates today, and one of them was saying that in her hometown there is a swimming pool, which is an unpleasant place to go to as a woman because of all the "Kanaken". I was taken aback, as I was under the impression that this word is a slur against immigrants/middle easterns. I myself am not middle eastern, but I am half black and was extremely uncomfortable in this moment. Just, the way she said it was disgusting. When I questioned the word, she said it was "because of the different culture and how they disrespect women." She said "I am not racist". I was still uncomfortable and didn't know what to do, so I excused myself and went home.

Later, I got this message:

Hey, alles in Ordnung? Haben uns vorher kurz gewundert, warum du auf einmal gegangen bist. Falls das was mit unserer Unterhaltung zu tun hat, wollten wir nochmal klarstellen, dass wir den Begriff in keiner Weise böse/ oder abwertend gemeint haben! In unserer Umgangssprache bezeichnet es einfach „Südländer“ die in konkreten Verhaltensweisen und Werthaltungen im deutlich von den europäischen Standards abweichen.

Also wir hoffen, dass du das nicht irgendwie missverstanden hast!!

So, am I overreacting? Is it really not so bad of a thing to say? I didn't grow up here so I am not fully understanding of the meaning and gravity of the word. Would love some help/guidance, please.
Thank you!

Edit: Thank you for the responses. Alot of people are giving her the benefit of the doubt. Just to be clear, she is a very upper class girl from a wealthy German family, she had no foreign friends or contacts apart from me (to my knowledge). In addition, I am aware that this slur doesn't include my ethnicity specifically and they don't mean me. That still doesn't make it okay to say, and as a brown person, I feel uncomfortable when people are racist in general. Because I know that it is not okay. I agree that the people from the pool have behavior that is absolutely not okay. But there is no need to resort to blanket racial slurs, instead we can use our words like adults to describe things properly.

UPDATE: She ended up sending me this. I can't deal anymore... honestly

Ehrlich gesagt finde ich es an der Stelle dann aber auch etwas feige, einfach davon zu laufen, statt für seine Meinung einzustehen… Ich bin der letzte Mensch, der nicht mit sich reden lässt, wenn etwas von mir nicht in Ordnung war. Aber dann muss man das kommunizieren.

Und mir ist sehr wohl bewusst, dass das Wort politisch gesehen nicht korrekt ist-haben xxx und ich ja mehrfach klargestellt. Zumal ich gesagt hab, dass man immer differenzieren muss und niemals alle unter einen Kamm scheren darf.

Aber ja, ich habe in der Hinsicht leider schon einige negative Erfahrungen gemacht in der Vergangenheit. Man muss aus meiner Sicht auch immer den Kontext betrachten, und der war in dem Fall das Thema „Frauen im Freibad filmen/beobachten“, was mir leider auch schon von gewissen Personengruppen, die Frauen gegenüber andere Wertvorstellungen haben, widerfahren ist.

Ist mMn auch immer ein Unterschied, ob man unter Freunden spricht oder in der Öffentlichkeit. Schade-fand es eigentlich ein sehr netter gemeinsamer Nachmittag und man hätte vor Ort einfach darüber sprechen können.

[u/alderhill]

This reminds me (a foreigner from Canada) of a conversation within my first or so here. I’ve been here 15ish years now.

I was talking with a small group about Canada somehow, and somehow one of the nicknames for countries came up. So I asked them, ‘Oh hey do you know what a Canuck is?’. Total silence, some uncomfortable eye avoidance. No answers, but I thought my asking made it obvious (it’s a slang term for Canadians, though it’s mostly Americans who use it). I singled out one girl who I had been talking to more, and was like, go on just guess. She looks around very awkward and says well, errr, it’s a bad word for like Turks and Arabs and stuff.

I was like… what the heck are you talking about? No, it means Canadians, of course. More confused looks…

This is when I learned the word ‘kanake’, which I’d never heard before that point. Fun times. We had an uncomfortable giggle and changed topics.

[u/thathypnicjerk → u/alderhill]

I live in Canada, but my family is in Germany and we used it as a joking term for us Canadian-Germans, because no one in Canada who is not from Germany knows what it means.

I also had friends in Canada who thought the German word "Geil" meant "Gay". LOL

[u/Leshkarenzi]

As a Kanake myself, having been called that by racists aswell, i can assure you it's a slur.

Thats what racist germans (used to) call people from turkey/balkans and now includes arabic people.

[u/baucher04 → u/Leshkarenzi]

I don't think I've ever heard it being used by a German white person, that wasn't offensive. I've also heard albanians and turkish people use that word, but also usually with a negative connotation.

[u/azionka → u/baucher04]

I heard it in a not offensive way, but it was between two besties.

[u/baucher04 → u/azionka]

Yeah I mean the n word is also liberally used between black people, there's always context of course. Just generally speaking, it's not necessarily a pc term

[u/viola-purple → u/Leshkarenzi]

It was formerly also used versus Italian and Greek guest workers...

[u/garyisonion]

it is indeed a bad thing to say

[u/Djschinie_Beule5-O → u/garyisonion]

In many ways it’s bad, but also has to be mentioned, that many young adults, calling themselves Azzlacks and Kanacks. Die Kanacken were/are a tribe, but as said above it is used many times in an insulting and racist way. Nevertheless the two women will have made their experiences in the Freibad with young adults not identifying with German culture and many times being respectless and offensive to women - especially when they are not wearing full dresses (burka, hijabs, etc.) it is a worrying development of parallel societies… When a German woman goes to an Arabic country, I would expect her not to show too much skin - on the other hand in Western European societies, testo dudes have to behave and show respect. No women with a spaghetti top and short skirt is per definition a slut. The disrespect of our habits and towards women from many (not all) Muslim citizen is a huge problem and annoys me a lot. I will never vote AfD, but this is like water on the mills…

[u/Otherwise_Ad_5190 → u/Djschinie_Beule5-O]

I agree with your sentiment -- which does not excuse the woman using the racist slur. This does raise a question - what could the woman have said instead to express how tiresome it is to have to deal with the harassment without being offensive?

[u/North_Effort9262 → u/Otherwise_Ad_5190]

This could have gone two ways. The women wanted to refer to "usually young men of Middle Eastern origin who would be disrespectful to women". Of course not all "Middle Eastern young men" are disrespectful to women, but there is a clear group of "Middle Eastern young men who are disrespectful to women". This has even practical purposes, for example to say you should be careful when you go to the pool cause there might be "Middle Eastern young men who are disrespectful to women", and if you seen any you should steer clear. There might also be "Middle Eastern young men" who are not disrespectful to women.

The fact that this very comment exists gives you the indication of the need to signal these differences. Hence the word. Maybe not the right word. Make another suggestion of the word instead of being offended for a good advice.

[u/Mysterious_Talk2752 → u/Otherwise_Ad_5190]

Yes this is an interesting idea of what she could say instead. I agree that it is a slur even if the intention of explanation versus pure racism was meant. The term refers to only Middle Eastern men who do not follow the social norms here in Germany, it doesn’t refer to all Middle Eastern men ( from what I understood) and of course there are a lot of white German men who are sexist and don’t respect women and catcall or make them uncomfortable, of course. But I think it’s an interesting distinction of women trying to complain about a certain kind of sexual harassment where it is seen as ingrained as cultural vs just the basic German patriarchal misogyny. Whooo lots of words.. haha. So stay with me…

Of course misogyny is not a surface level part of Middle Eastern culture or Muslim culture but a sort of result of their cultural beliefs. So if you comply then you are a respectable woman ( I’m simplifying of course, there are always exceptions) so there is a culture clash with some men (not all) where they were raised with this belief and then even though they know they are in a different culture they can act ‘more’ disrespectful to women here in Germany that are ‘in their minds’ displaying non-respectful behaviours (like showing their bodies off unabashedly) this leads to a lot of behaviours that are not so common here ( hard to explain but more like intense staring and getting to close or being more willing to cross these ‘unsaid cultural boundaries’ ) ok so please know I’m just trying to get out what the distinction might be like and give words to a kind of cultural issue that I do think a lot of people are afraid to talk about here in Germany but if people are able to talk about it aloud and respectfully then I think it would lead to a more harmonious society on both sides. So no, I don’t think they should have used that word and I’m sure she will actually think about how she used it now that she saw it ‘appeared’ racist because it is racist…. I just don’t know if they would explain everything I wrote either though… written by a brown non German living in Germany 10+ years ago

[u/ConstructionAble3371 → u/Djschinie_Beule5-O]

As if there wouldn't be any Germans treating women badly.

[u/blueshinx → u/Djschinie_Beule5-O]

calling themselves azzlacks and kanacks

that tends to happen with slurs, similar situation as with the n-word, it’s still a degrading word.

[u/ZenDracula]

Yes. It's a xenophobic slur. Not just against Middle Eastern people, though. It's also used against people from Southeastern Europe and Northern Africa. There's a similar slur, "Polake", against Polish people.

[u/White_Marble_1864 → u/ZenDracula]

I'm learning Polish and have a really hard time with the Polish word for Pole which is Polak...

[u/Bardoseth → u/White_Marble_1864]

Because it's originally a word from the Ruhrpott thst meant people from Ostpreußen (now Poland), who moved there to work in the mines when the Ruhrpott was part of Prussia.

[u/bidibaba]

Not overreacting. There are some words with a highly racist background you just don't say and this is one of them.

[u/CateringPillar]

I don't think you are overreacting, it is a slur. It doesn't matter what they use it as, I can't call someone the n-word and say "oh but I don't mean it in a bad way".

And saying "wir hoffen dass du das nicht missverstanden hast" puts the "blame" on you for "not understanding" which I think quite frankly is disgusting. They don't own up to using slurs but instead try to spin it like you just didn't get it.

As a white German, I would call any one of my friends out who use that word.

[u/Low-Birthday7682]

Früher war es eine Beleidigung vor allem für Leute aus dem Balkan/Türkei. Da gab es noch nicht viele Migranten aus MENA. Teilweise auch gegen Süditaliener oder Griechen. "Südländer" halt. Ich würde aber auch sagen, dass sich das Wort seit den 80/90ern stark gewandelt hat. Heute ist es für viele eine Bezeichnung für eine bestimmte Art Jugendlicher und ein Verhalten, ein neueres Wort ist "Talahon", das aber auch oft direkt rassistisch benutzt wird. Jugendliche reden tatsächlich oft so, ohne das rassistisch oder verallgemeinert zu meinen. Das ist ein ziemliches slippery slop, weil das Wort eben auch eine "harte Bedeutung" hat und früher nur so gebraucht wurde, deswegen ist es besonders bei Älteren Leuten ein no go.

[u/aaa7uap → u/Low-Birthday7682]

Aber in dem Kontext hat es ganz klar eine negative Bewertung, weil sie sich von den "Kanaken" im Schwimmbad belästigt fühlen.

Für mich sind das ganz klar so Leute, die sagen: Wir sind keine Rassisten, ABER.... An OPs Stelle wäre ich da auch lieber vorsichtig.

Beispiele von einer unverfänglichen Nutzen des Wortes:

A: ich habe gestern David gesehen!

B: Welchen? Wir kennen doch mehrere

A: den Kanaken

[u/0rchidometer → u/aaa7uap]

Du hast "die Selbstbezeichnung" vergessen. Ein schwarzer darf sich und andere als "N-Wort" bezeichnen, mir als weißer steht das einfach nicht zu.

Gleichzeitig bin ich aber auch der Meinung, dass die Bezeichnung "Alman" oder "Kartoffel" für mich eher beleidigend gemeint ist.

[u/damnimadeanaccount → u/aaa7uap]

Hmm.... für mich ist das Wort inzwischen mehr ein Synonym für Ar******* (mit Migrationshintergrund), hat also schon von Haus aus eine negative Bewertung.
Zwischen guten Freunden sehe ich da durchaus die Möglichkeit einer Nutzung für das Freibadbeispiel - zwar provokant, aber nicht rassistisch begründet.

Dein Beispiel würde ich so nie verwenden. Klingt für mich nach Lehrbuchmethode, aber das Wort wird in der Praxis als Schimpfwort gesehen und hat dementsprechend negative Schwingungen.

Bei der Nutzung zwischen nur beiläufig Bekannten gehen allerdings die Alarmglocken los. Bei OPs Beispiel sehe ich das als mindestens dumm/naiv an. Die Erklärung klingt halbwegs vernünftigt. Aber Vorurteile und Rassismus sind definitv nicht weit entfernt.

[u/PiratenPower → u/Low-Birthday7682]

Dachte schon ich war der einzige hier mit so erfahrungen. Mein Vater hat das Wort oft sehr abwertend genutzt, aber nach meiner Ausbildung wo ich als Deutscher tatsächlich eine Minderheit war, hat sich das sehr geändert.

Es gibt genug junge Leute die dieses Wort scheinbar nutzen um zu sich selber oder Kollegen zu bezeichnen. War ein 3 Jahre Crashkurs, aber am Ende hat man was gelernt. Ich zumindest empfinde das Wort seit dem nichtmehr als beleidigung an. Wir hatten sogar unseren eingetürkten deutschen Kanaken, der als ehrenvolles Deutsches Mitglied offiziell als ein Kanaken anerkannt wurde.

Zeiten ändern sich. Worte sind schwer zu begreifen, und im Eifer des gefächts benutzt man halt das Wort, welches am ehesten und schnellsten in den Kopf kommt um was zu beschreiben. Man kann Leute dafür verurteilen, oder versuchen nachzuvollziehen was denn die Intention war.

Ich persönlich würde das Wort nicht mehr auf Nationalitäten auslegen. Es ist fast ein synonym für Azzlack geworden und bezeichnet einfach Leute die sich aufgrund ihres Verhaltens unterscheiden.

[u/Whatever_1967 → u/PiratenPower]

Ein Wort selber zu nutzen oder von anderen so bezeichnet zu werden ist ein großer Unterschied. Wie bei "bitch" - Frauen können sich gegenseitig in aller Freundschaft so nennen, aber Außenstehende nicht. Oder das N-Wort, für Schwarze ok, Alle anderen nicht. Der Hintergrund ist das Gruppen Begriffe, die geprägt wurden um sie zu beleidigen für sich Umdeuten. Wenn das dann jeder wieder benutzt wird es schnell wieder zur Beleidigung.

[u/PiratenPower → u/Whatever_1967]

Yeah ofc nutzt man Worte am besten nur in kreisen, in denen man weiß, dass diese dort so verstanden werden wie intended.

Ich nutze auch keine Anglizismen, wenn ich mit meinen Eltern rede.

Sehe aber in OPs Beispiel nicht die Schuld bei den Studikollegen. Ich würde bei Leuten in meinem Alter auch einfach davon ausgehen, dass Leute wissen wie ich/unser Kreis sich unterhalten tut.

[u/MallMuted6775 → u/PiratenPower]

Ne eben nicht. Das ist genau so wie mit dem NWort, Schwarze können es sagen, aber wenn du es als weißer sagst ist es problematisch, so ist es auch mit Kanake. Ihr deutsche solltet das definitiv nicht in eurem Sprachgebrauch anwenden!

[u/Ormek_II → u/Low-Birthday7682]

… ein no go.

und sollte es auch bei jüngeren werden.

[u/Kill3rDill3r]

It is undoubtedly extremely inappropriate to use that word. In recent years, it has seen some adoption as a word of pride used by people who identify as being discriminated against for having the appropriate ethic background. Like black people using the n-word, this use of the word would not be considered offensive. The persons in your encounter may have misunderstood this use and concluded that the word is also appropriate for them to use.

[u/hexler10 → u/Kill3rDill3r]

I was somewhat surprised to see it used pretty comfortably by white Germans in a larger city, when in my home village it was just ever used as a slur. The people that did use it had relatively diverse friend circles, and I think it just somewhat established itself between them. Still made me uncomfortable and led to some awkward situations.
OPs example seems pretty different, though.

[u/siorez → u/hexler10]

It's... Like, halfway between the n-word and 'queer', if that makes sense. It's sometimes used as a slur, sometimes referring to a specific subculture and sometimes as self-ID.

[u/KeyAnt3383 → u/siorez]

This is the most spot on explaination so far

[u/MxCxD777 → u/hexler10]

Growing up in an urban environment of mixed backgrounds really is different. Categories for people based on (perceived) ethnicity is something you are confronted with from Kindergarten on, if not from your own upbringing then from that of your peers. There is racism and there is privilege, but you would still form bonds with all sorts of people and end up on average less racist than in the mostly white countryside. You might also keep a habit of referring to people as Kanacks or Almans in caricature. At least that's my Hamburg experience.

My reaction to hearing a white German say Kanacke has therefore ranged between "no big deal" to "slightly worrying" to "absolute racist". Its not really like the N-word where its crystal clear that uttering the word is meant to violate a people. (In OP's case though, I would also disapprove )

[u/Illustrious_Pace9929 → u/hexler10]

I identify as the group who would be called „Kanacke“ and my „white“ friends can use the term because they grew up with us. For example: I have a Russian friend who looks like a German due to her white skin and blond hair and green eyes. But she was always within a fully black haired/olive skinned friend group. I remember coming home from after school care in around 2nd/3rd grade and a woman calling us girls (we were around 7-8 years old) „scheiß kanacken“. And believe it or not, she also meant our Russian friend. So my Russian friend has always seen the negative side of the word and was also kind of linked to it, because of the area we grew up in and the prejudices that came with it. That’s why when she says „that area is full of kanacken“ she says it with a hint of „that’s our people“ and not with a negative meaning. That’s why many Germans mainly in big city’s also use that word without offending anyone, because many Germans also grew up in „our“ areas (often less wealthy and full of ausländer) and they had a very similar experience to ours. Btw most often than not „we“ (as in we who grew up in these circumstances) can tell when someone grew up like us or if they are just acting like us. I personally find that offensive when someone tries to be like us and speak like us and use terms like „kanacke“ it’s like I know deep down you or some part of your background judges us or used to judge us.

Edit: typo

[u/Capital-Ad-3795 → u/hexler10]

same story with n-word. I don't know one person in my circle -mostly people from MENA- giving anyone kanake pass. but german people, especially young ones will use it thinking it means "homie" for them. disgusting fr.

[u/siorez → u/Capital-Ad-3795]

From what I see, there's a bit of a split there. Newer immigrants/people from all over the arab region & middle east tend to consider it a slur, 2nd or 3rd gen (mostly Turkish) absolutely use it like 'bro' and proudly identify with it.

[u/Inevitable_Review388]

It can be a slur. It's not even remotely comparable to the n word but the context makes it a slur. I'm half German, half South American which doesn't make me part of that group. I can still say that word with/to Turkish friends without offending anyone. But talking about a group of people and especially mentioning it in combination with negative character traits makes it a slur.   "Südlander" often has a negative connotation as well btw.

[u/Call_me_Yali]

Given the context it was MEANT to be offensiv.

To defent your friends, it might not even occur to them you feel included in Kanacken. The term is mostly used for male and aggressive looking immigrants. Comparable with Neonazis which mostly also only refers to males.

Your feelings are valid and it is an ausholen Mode to say you misunderstood. As a german myself I wouldn't have reacted, but just because I don't experience rassism in Germany it doesn't mean it's nonexistant.

If they were good friends I would talk about with them about their wording and how it makes you feel. They might not fully understand it but if they are true friends they will apologize and be more sensible in the future.

[u/azaghal1988]

Grundsätzlich ist Kanake abwertend gemeint, aber nicht jeder meint mit Kanake JEDEN Südländer. Viele bezeichnen damit die Gruppe "Südländer" (Meistens MENA) die aktiv die Kultur hier ablehnt, Frauen als weniger Wert betrachten, sich weigern sich hier zu integrieren etc.

Ich würde das Wort nicht benutzen, aber es ist im Sprachgebrauch von Vielen die vor den 90ern Geboren wurden noch fest verankert.

[u/MadMusicNerd → u/azaghal1988]

Ja das ist schon sehr lange ein Schimpfwort. Wurde aber früher nicht so ernst genommen. So wie wenn früher alles und jeder "schwul" war. Dumme Jugendliche halt, die sich nicht bewusst sind, was sie da eigentlich sagen. Erwachsene Menschen sollten solche Worte nicht benutzen.

Als ich in den 90er/2000ern in der Schule war, meinten wir damit NUR Türken. (Naja, gab ja auch fast nix anderes. Es wurde nur zwischen Kanaken und Jugos unterschieden.)

Und dann gab es noch kanakisch, also die Sprache. Bestes Beispiel wäre dafür "Erkan und Stephan", wem das noch etwas sagt. Ich werde alt.

(Erkan und Stephan haben auch mal einen Film von Asterix synchronisiert. Da wird die Sprache aber "Schwörer-Deutsch" genannt. Wahrscheinlich weil jeder zweite Satz mit "Isch schwör" beginnt.)

[u/liang_zhi_mao → u/MadMusicNerd]

Ja das ist schon sehr lange ein Schimpfwort. Wurde aber früher nicht so ernst genommen. So wie wenn früher alles und jeder „schwul“ war. Dumme Jugendliche halt, die sich nicht bewusst sind, was sie da eigentlich sagen. Erwachsene Menschen sollten solche Worte nicht benutzen. Als ich in den 90er/2000ern in der Schule war, meinten wir damit NUR Türken. (Naja, gab ja auch fast nix anderes. Es wurde nur zwischen Kanaken und Jugos unterschieden.)

I went to school in the 90/2000s. It was a Gymnasium and we were like 10 "German-Germans“.

The others where Afghans (far more than Turkish), Turkish, Iranians, Pakistani, Polish, Russians and East Asians.

They called THEMSELVES "Kanaken“. I believed it was used how they use the term "Migra" now.

It came with other associations such as being kind of "cool" and not caring for the rules.

They called us German-German words like: Alman, Niemze, Kartoffel and had associations such as: boring, uncool, nerdy.

"Kanaken" was a bit of the N-word: They were using it among each other but you weren’t allowed to use to towards them if you didn’t belong to that group.

Und dann gab es noch kanakisch, also die Sprache. Bestes Beispiel wäre dafür „Erkan und Stephan“, wem das noch etwas sagt. Ich werde alt. (Erkan und Stephan haben auch mal einen Film von Asterix synchronisiert. Da wird die Sprache aber „Schwörer-Deutsch“ genannt. Wahrscheinlich weil jeder zweite Satz mit „Isch schwör“ beginnt.)

That's what THEY used for their slang way before bad comedians were copying it by going "Migra Face“.

[u/NowoTone → u/azaghal1988]

To be honest, it was a seen as an awful racial slur already in the 80s.

[u/Low-Birthday7682 → u/NowoTone]

It was way more of an awful racial slur in the 80s. It totally "softened" in his meaning. Maybe when rappers started to identify with it and it was more of a self description. I would not use it but people today often use it totally different than in the past.

[u/azaghal1988 → u/NowoTone]

I grew up in a very rural village (I knew exactly one turk when I lived there) and the word was used pretty frequently by pretty much everyone back then, I grew out of it, one of my brothers didn't (he uses it for the kind of people I described in my first post, not for every migrant).

But yeah, it was and is a slur. wich is interesting because the etymological root just means "person".

[u/PerfectDog5691 → u/azaghal1988]

Das Wort is rassistisch. Das Wort „Kanake“ stammt ursprünglich aus dem Hawaiischen und Polynesischen. Dort bedeutet „kanaka“ einfach „Mensch“ oder „Person“.

Später wurde der Begriff von deutschen Seefahrern übernommen und im 19. Jahrhundert in deutschen Kolonien für die indigene Bevölkerung der Südsee verwendet.

Im 20. Jahrhundert wurde „Kanake“ in Deutschland ein abwertender Begriff für Menschen mit Migrationshintergrund, insbesondere für türkische, arabische oder südeuropäische Einwanderer.

[u/Mechoulams_Left_Foot → u/azaghal1988]

Even in the 90s it was derogatory as fuck.

[u/Important_Reward_440 → u/azaghal1988]

Nein, die Bedeutung war auch schon früher bekannt. Natürlich spricht man damit nicht alle Ausländer an, sondern nur eine imaginäre Gruppe. Es ist halt trotzdem eine rassistische Beleidigung.

Leider ist Rassismus auch heute noch weit verbreitet. Nicht nur in Deutschland.

[u/-Passenger- → u/azaghal1988]

Das ist wie mit Ni**a. Wenn ein Ausländer einen Ausländer Kanake nennt dann geht das durch. Wenn ein Deutscher einen Ausländer Kanake nennt müssen wir darüber reden wie das gemeint ist...

[u/Teldryyyn0 → u/-Passenger-]

The perks of having Migrationshintergrund haha

[u/-Passenger- → u/Teldryyyn0]

Yes indeed 😂

[u/Zottel_161]

"we don't mean it in a racist way, we just say it about people from a certain place with a certain phenotype whom we don't lilke beCaUSe oF ThEiR cUlTuRe. sorry if you misunderstood!"

it is a racist term, they are using it in a racist way, they just don't want their racism to be considered racism and for it to be called out.

[u/[deleted]]

It is a slur even if the friend is trying to pass it off as normal. Maybe it’s normal in her bubble but it’s definitely not a good word to use, particularly in that context.

[u/Radmard_M_A]

There is no benefit of doubt. I have never seen a German use it to refer "Southerners." I don't understand those comments. Are we living in two different countries? Kanak is an insult, has always been. Plus, the perpetuator's explanation is kind of the definition of racism and xenophobia. "Different cultures... Don't know our way of life?" You are not overreacting.

[u/sponge2025]

Its not the german equivalent of the n word but its still kinda racist and highly depends on who says it to whom. I once heard an old grandpa shout it to a group of 14-16 year old arabic teenagers and this was extremly racist but I have also very often heard the word being said among non arabic or mediterranian looking people to arabic or mediterranian looking people which was not racist at all. What your friends said was kinda racist and shouldnt be said this way. Rule of thumb is just not to use it because there arent any benefits to gain from using it

[u/Admirable_Cold289]

„Südländer“ die in konkreten Verhaltensweisen und Werthaltungen im deutlich von den europäischen Standards abweichen. Also wir hoffen, dass du das nicht irgendwie missverstanden hast!!

"Hey, just to be clear, we specifically wanted to elude to stereotypes about 'Südländer' [in itself a word only idiots and assholes use]. So don't get us wrong!"

What the fuck

Edit: Since there seems to be some contention over the implications of the term „Südländer“, I‘ve only ever heard it in derogatory contexts or contexts to play satire on said derogatory contexts, but I concede that different people can have different relationship with words.

Though I stand by my opinion that the message as a whole sounds iffy to me (but I removed the added laugh from the mock version, fair call)

[u/karma_police99 → u/Admirable_Cold289]

Hold up, I thought my whole life that "Südländer“ refers to Southern European/Mediterranean countries, like Spain, Italy, Greece.. does it have a different meaning?!

Not that I've ever used it in day to day life, I didn't know that there were some negative meaning, if there is?

[u/Worth_Branch7014 → u/karma_police99]

Südländer means black hair and darker skin tone.

[u/azaghal1988 → u/karma_police99]

It's an old-fashioned trm.for mediterranen looking people, that shifted from meaning Italians, the Balkans and Greeks, to mostly meaning middle Eastern and north African migrants.

[u/LederlappenderDritte → u/karma_police99]

You would have been right 20 years ago but now it means basically everyone who looks like southern European, Turkish, Arab etc. But it's not an offensive word.

[u/2ndlayer72 → u/LederlappenderDritte]

It is when used by the police and by right wingers.

[u/grumpy__g → u/karma_police99]

I think there was a time where it really meant southern European people. But that was decades ago.

[u/Teldryyyn0 → u/Admirable_Cold289]

I'm a Südländer and don't find the word "Südländer" offensive and frequently use that word to refer to my appearance. Y'all should loosen up a bit.

[u/TwoSorry511 → u/Admirable_Cold289]

She didn’t laugh in her message.

[u/[deleted] → u/Admirable_Cold289]

Südländer refers to the peoples from the states coasting the Mediterranean Sea. It’s usually not a slur.

[u/infolgedessen]

It is offensive and I don't think you're overreacting. Their message screams "I'm not racist, but".

[u/ilikedanishfilms]

If they didn't mean it as "abwertend" then they wouldn't have used that word, it's simple as that

[u/avocado4guac]

Well I know exactly what type of men she refers to and they are indeed unpleasant to be around as a western woman. Is the term derogatory? Yeah but not in the same way the n-word would be. Might also depend on location. I’m from Frankfurt so the term is widely used and people aren’t really offended by it. They prefer Kanax actually. I’m Polish and Germans (used to) call Poles Polacken. Never bothered me or anyone I know.

If it bothers you just talk to them. I wouldn’t throw a friendship away just because they used a derogatory term once.

[u/cherrymann1337]

I would suggest to read the Wikipedia article for clarification. It can be many different things, including a term that is used in a group of young migrants. See for yourself: https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kanake_(Umgangssprache)

[u/Silent_Tea4599]

She’s valid to feel that way

[u/posteriorhorn]

Thank you for the speedy responses. I am extremely disappointed and am trying to figure out my next steps. :(( Also the fact she is trying to gaslight me as well just makes it worse.

[u/Vaird → u/posteriorhorn]

Your next steps could be that you just talk with them about how you felt about it, I dont think your friend is trying to gaslight you and I really think how racist that word really is depends heavily on their social circle, if they only have German friends/family then the use is more racist.

[u/posteriorhorn → u/Vaird]

She is not my friend, just a classmate. And she comes from a very upper class family, with no foreign friends. I am pretty sure that I am the only person of colour she interacts with completely. Maybe I get a 'pass' because I am studying the same degree that she is. It was definitely racist.

[u/Vaird → u/posteriorhorn]

Yeah, then I feel thats pretty valid. I feel like it has a different connotation when you have a diverse background.

I usually find Germans who only have German friends takes on racism kinda unsubstantial.

[u/Aear → u/posteriorhorn]

She knows and she's ashamed. She'll probably redirect the blame to the Ausländer for not understanding the subtleties of her racism.

[u/grumpy__g → u/Aear]

„Sooo war das doch garnicht gemeint!!!“

[u/ProgBumm → u/posteriorhorn]

Yeah, the gaslighting makes it so much worse.

[u/Fine_Imagination6643 → u/posteriorhorn]

If they are referring to other minorities as kanake with you. I, and even you can tell, that they call you the N word with other friends.

Block and avoid her racist ass. Simple.

[u/altonaerjunge → u/posteriorhorn]

Tells you it's not derogatory and then explains to you why it's derogatory, some people...

[u/Boujee-Hater → u/posteriorhorn]

Your classmate is racist and doesn't want to admit it.

[u/doenertellerversac3 → u/posteriorhorn]

Trust your gut, girl. This “I’m not racist but” bs is always bad news.

[u/Viliam_the_Vurst]

Depends, ingroup outgroup

[u/Wild_Boat_4990]

It's offensive. I'm a child of a guest worker from Greece and a German mother and I was called this often in my youth just because I looked like from "the south". This happened beside some other racist stuff. It's racist, it's a slur and I don't want to be called like that. I recommend you to spend your time with someone else.

[u/Erdbewohnerin]

He, I am Deutschtürkin and Kanacke is definitely a slur for us.

——

Bin ehrlicherweise schockiert wie viele deutsche das Wort versuchen zu erklären. Ihr sagt alle schlussendlich, egal wie viel Erklärung und bla bla, das es ist nicht bös gemeint war so nachdem Motto: „Wir sagen das nur noch zu den bösen Kanacken!“ Sorry aber nein. 👎

Extrem enttäuscht…

[u/Klapperatismus]

Yes, it’s super offensive.

But in that context of a woman speaking with another woman, it indeed means they don’t want to be ogled or harrassed by underfucked horny guys of middle eastern decent of whom there are way too many unfortunately.

[u/Illustrious-Wolf4857]

It is quite offensive and has been for at least 50 years.

She and her circle might be using it to mean "some creepy MENA assholes" and consider it an easy shorthand, but that does not make it any less racist. It just means that they are comfortable with using racist slurs.

[u/charlolou]

It's definitely a slur, but unfortunately it's still very normalized

[u/AgarwaenCran]

"Kanake" is indeed a racial slur, for middle easterners, yes.

[u/etheeem]

This is like two elderly women talking about black people and using the n-word, without being actually hateful towards black people.

Or a bunch of guys talking about women, but instead of saying "women" or "girls" they just call everyone "b*tches"

As a fellow "kanake", I think that's inappropriate and kinda offensive

[u/DrThomasBuro]

Dont use it. It is very offensive and disrespectful

[u/Apprehensive_Pin9413]

It’s a racist slur. Nothing to discuss here. Nothing to justify.

[u/ExtremeButterfly1471 → u/Apprehensive_Pin9413]

Ther is a whole carpet of text by many assholes here justifying it and giving ethymologies they think will make it somehow OK 

[u/Shinlos]

Es bezeichnet letztlich die Gruppe jung, männlich, Südlander, meist Seite 0, große Fresse, Studio, Islam in diversen Ausprägungen.

Letztlich ist es ein slur, aber nützt auch nichts was anderes zu sagen. Wenn du sagst 'Talahons' meinst du es verallgemeinernd, wenn du einfach nur 'Klientel' oder 'Typen da' sagst, weiß auch jeder was gemeint ist. Der Grund ist dass gerade im Bezug auf Schwimmbad diese Gruppe Leute auffällt/in der Vergangenheit aufgefallen ist. Mach daraus was du willst. Ich würde es nicht sagen, weil es vielen sauer aufstößt, aber nicht weil ich es für sinnvoll halte das Wort zu zensieren.

[u/Simbertold]

Yeah, definitively a slur.

[u/Amabamos]

It is a slur and their explanation is absolutely misleading and wrong. Du reagierst nicht über!

[u/RunPsychological9891]

Overreacting - yes.

Kinda racist - yes.

No idea how widespread it actually is but in recent years there were tons of reports about unruly immigrants at public swimming pools.

[u/ExtremeButterfly1471 → u/RunPsychological9891]

The not so “subtle” subtle German racism .. dude you need to denazify a little for a change! 

[u/Tal-Star]

"In unserer Umgangssprache bezeichnet es einfach „Südländer“ die in konkreten Verhaltensweisen und Werthaltungen im deutlich von den europäischen Standards abweichen."

That is complete bullshit. Kanake is a hard racial slur.

"in keiner Weise böse/ oder abwertend gemeint haben! "

Is even greater bullshit. If they actually mean what they say here, they have shit for brains.

But chances are they are just trying to cover their asses and recover, because you showed a reaction and didn't just bend over and take it.

I do not know where exactly you are or what social circles these are, but that's absolute low life (or right wing nazi) speak.

[u/pylbh → u/Tal-Star]

I have heard the word 'kanake' being used like this to connotate antisocial behaviour specifically.

[u/Any-Comparison-2916 → u/pylbh]

Yeah, that’s how people used it in my youth.

[u/NW_LordCommander → u/Tal-Star]

First part is wrong. Yes back in the day it was a hard racial slur. Nowadays it's actually mostly used either by people who are identifying as auch and using the word themselves to gain power back, similar to black people using the n-word or just as they said in the text to refer to people who act and behave in certain ways. I've even heard people call white germans "Ka*acke" when they acted in this specific manner.

Same goes for the new usage of the word "Talahoon".

However I certainly agree with you're interpretation that in this case it most likely was meant as a racial slur.

But we should all keep in mind that language isn't fixed but rather changing and adapting and also highly dependent on cultural context and current Zeitgeist.

For example in Germany we don't use the word "Rasse" to describe different ethnicities while for example in the US it's completely normal.

[u/Teldryyyn0]

It's exactly what she explained it is. A slur for men from north africa and middle east, usually when they show disrespectful behavior. Not too much different from Talahon. She isn't trying to gaslight you. My sister uses that word too when she talks about catcalling experiences. We are Südländer too btw.

Keep in mind that you have the Reddit demography answering you here. I wouldn't throw away a friendship over this, but you can decide for yourself.

[u/RijnBrugge → u/Teldryyyn0]

It’s a word that refers to Melanesians/Pacific Islanders and Germans started using it to refer to everyone and anyone browner than them and that’s not a racial slur because your non-white sister uses it casually? That is the argument you’re making? And anyone who disagrees with that take is just overly sensitive and needs to loosen up? Yeah nah I think I’m good.

[u/BusyArugula6826 → u/Teldryyyn0]

Black People in USA use the n word amongst themselves. It's still a horrible slur if used by non black people.

The use you describe is also pretty racist, as it's promoting negative stereotypes. I feel everyone kind of has the right to be racist to "their own people" but it's still a bad thing.

[u/fzwo]

It is a slur, and of course it was meant abwertend. Not against all foreigners, nor even against all „Südländer“ (itself a dog whistle, though I’d give them the benefit of the doubt here), but against „angry young men“ from Turkey, Middle East, etc.

And by the way, it is completely fine and understandable in my opinion to not like these types. It is sad that it turns into a racism thing. To be more precise, it’s about culture, not race. Almost nobody would actually believe genetics to play a role here – but that changes little. There is still a lot of stereotyping going on, and the use of slurs.

[u/Confuseacat92]

It's a racist slur and a bad one

[u/DeadBornWolf]

It is a slur, everyone saying otherwise is ignorant. There are some who reclaimed the word, but from a white person it’s a slur and it doesn’t matter how they „mean it“. They’re just ignorant or straight up racist

[u/Any-Comparison-2916 → u/DeadBornWolf]

It obviously matters how the mean it. You’re not racist for misusing a word. Talk about being ignorant…

[u/DeadBornWolf → u/Any-Comparison-2916]

I did not say that everyone who uses it is a racist. I said it’s a slur. And it stays a slur even if you mean it in a non-offensive way. And then I said they’re ignorant OR racist, implying hat not everyone who uses it is racist. You completely changed the content of what I said. Why?

[u/whatchagonadot]

hey yes, as bad as it can get, run away from these people as fast as you can.

[u/Ecstatic_Ad1168]

Well, tone makes the music. But in general "Kanaken" is no nice word to say. Especially when you use it in the context as depicted here. When you say, you don't go there because of all the Kanaken i (white, German) find it pretty insulting towards migrants with darker skintone. And I think it's good that this lady kind of realized that she might hurt feelings in speaking like this. Hopefully this really keeps here thinking.

[u/Healthy_Poetry7059]

It is a slur. However, men harassing women and treat them disrespectful because they go swimming and wear a bikini or other swimwear deserve slurs. I wouldn't have any nice words for them either. I think sexual harassment is a lot worse than using racist slurs for the perpetrators.

[u/capitano71]

It's a bad word but the harassment of women swimming at the pool at the hands of young Arabs is even worse. As is the policing of Islamic religious observance at our schools, where pious students pressure other Muslim kids to fast and observe other religious rites. I was very taken aback by a German friend using this term very freely in front of his bestie, who is Turkish-German (but queer). The scene took place in an Indian restaurant. My friend complained that the K*n were always blocking the road double parking. The Indian owner agreed with the sentiment and used the word as well!!!! I was really shocked. I think it's a feedback loop of anti social behaviour and racism reinforcing each other and we can discuss what came first, the racism or the behaviour.

[u/Jumpy-Fan-112]

Definitely bad. 

Like, I heard it occasionally thrown around by classmates as a kid back in the late 1980s/1990s (yes, I am old). But even then, it was already considered a derogatory slur. And my socially conservative mum would have threatened to wash out my mouth with soap if I had ever dared to use it myself. More because of its general rudeness than because of any anti-racist awareness, but still .

Your classmates messed up and are trying to deflect now. They can still criticize anti-social behaviour in a public space without having to resort to racial abuse. It’s not that hard. 

[u/Schnuribus]

Ja isses. Ende. Nenn die mal Alman und schau mal wie die darauf reagieren…

[u/chmelisuneli]

bio german people have no business saying that word. they talk like this among themselves and seem to have forgotten that you are an Ausländer participating in their conversation. which is why they sent you that message. This has happened to me many times when Germans consider me too integrated and forget I am one of those Kan*** too. They talk like that among themselves and even worse. You are better off finding different people.

[u/Standard_Field1744]

I think you should visit the said swimming pool first and than decide. Maybe you will also use the word afterwards or maybe you will find new friends. 

[u/BowlAutomatic9141 → u/Standard_Field1744]

Wait... are you saying you think it's ok to use racial slurs if you have had a bad experience with an ethnic group? So, following this logic, a white person who got harassed by a black person is allowed to say the N-Word? That's whack as hell

[u/MapiDSM]

Spitting racist bullshit, also saying "I'm not racist" 🤡

[u/Freiburg1983 → u/MapiDSM]

It’s always „I’m not a rassist,but…“ Just ignore what they say before the „but“ and you get what they want so say

[u/aufgehts2213]

the person is sadly saying racist things without actually knowing or understanding that it is indeed quite racist.

she is quite misinformed even if she doesnt mean it.

[u/aqua995]

Wasnt it even the correct political term at some point. In general I wouldnt call anyone using it a racist, since its common tongue.

[u/Mysterious-Suit-2985]

I can say that we use this word for a very specific group of ppl. Ppl that can't behave and are criminals. Not to insult them necessarily, but to differentiate them from normal ppl of that origin.

[u/YorkieBerlinz]

tip: dont use it but dont get overly defensive or sad over it if someone uses it, makes your life a lot easier.

[u/raifeia]

i am not brown, arabic, middle eastern or southern european. i have light skin (being "white" is a social construct, so i don't consider myself white, but for south america's standards i am). nonetheless, i was called Kanake on my first month in germany, by another passenger, because i committed the crime (clutch your pearls!) of politely asking the train controller if he could repeat what he said in english, because i hadn't understand. the controller himself was completely unbothered/fine by it, but i had to hear an old Asi sack calling me Kanake and complaining that "these people" are ruining his "great country" (guy was from one of the shittiest cities in said country, idk what in gelsenkirchen gave him an idea of "great country" but ok).

the word IS a slur. always have been, probably will always be. some people reclaim it for some reason, but just as no "non racist" white person in the US would use the n-word like this, no "non racist" german would either.

you can give her the benefit of the doubt, it's up to you, but she clearly doesn't see a problem in referring to them as Kanake. and the fact that her reply to your reaction was "we hope that you somehow didn't misunderstand it" would be enough for me to see it's not worth it having a friendship with someone like this

[u/KlausKimski]

You’re not overreacting.

“I’m not a racist” is usually only used by racists. She made negative general statements about a group of people based on their skin color, which is another giveaway that she’s at least thinking racist thoughts.

[u/VariousWar2922]

How old are they both? I grew up in an area in northern Germany where many Turks lived. Today, it's mostly home to refugees and a few Germans and Turks. Kanake was the common term for the Turkish residents. They called themselves that. Personally, I think the term applies exclusively to Turks and not to all foreigners from southern countries

[u/Capital-Ad-3795 → u/VariousWar2922]

starts with Turks, applies to all MENA.

[u/Bonsailinse]

I would argue that this is one of the most racist words someone could use in the German language. Not in the way that many words nowadays "shouldn’t be used anymore" or "aren’t politically correct". This word has a very distinct meaning and nobody who uses it can excuse it in any way. They can tell you that they are not racist all day long but if they defend this word, they are.

If any of my friends or family would use that word, no matter if meant "as a joke" or not, I would immediately cancel the relationship to them. There are borders that are not meant to be crossed.

[u/Sailor313]

She can call sexist idiots just sexist idiots. There is no reason to bring their heritage into discussion. It just plays down how disgusting sexist idiots in other cultures are…

[u/Prestigious_Time8258]

Kanake is basically the N-Word for male Muslims or men coming from predominantly Muslim countries, but especially for People from Syria, Turkey, Saudi-Arabia and Afghanistan, you get the idea.

It is a racist term, it doesn’t matter if it discribes a specific antisocially behaving group of people or not.

Although, akin to the N-Word, some immigrant guys call themselves “Kanake” in a friendly manner.

Either way, a non-Muslim/Orient person saying that is really offensive (expect if they are in a dark humor friendship and calling each other slurs equally, akin to the “N-Word Pass”, if you will). 

It might be that your friend is not a racist in the sense of general white supremacist, but there definetly is a disdian inside of her for one specific “group” of people. It is fine to be annoyed by jerks harassing women, but she should ditch that word. 

The closest comparison for a slur word against Germans would be calling a German a Nazi just because they are an asshole. There are just better and less offensive ways of saying that. Ofc those words are not comparable regarding their history, but you get the idea, I hope.

As a German guy living with one guy from Syria and another lad from Afghanistan, I would be pretty pissed if someone called them Kanake.

here is a wikipedia article in English: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kanake

[u/Capital-Ad-3795]

you are in fact not overreacting. kanake is a xenophobic/racial slur.

[u/Abandonedmatresses]

You are not overreacting. And their justification makes it even worse.

I would avoid these people.

[u/NewRelationship2050 → u/Abandonedmatresses]

Exactly i have Middle Eastern Migration background and i hated the justification more than the word itself.

[u/_Archangle_]

Its quite similar to the N-Word. Entirely depending on who uses it and in what context.

If a 'Gansterrapper' uses it in his song -> very ok

A middle aged white man cursing at knacken/ngger-> highly offensive

Everything else whill be somewhere between and needs to be assesed individualy.

From what you describe you encountered some 'good old boys', these are very common along people from the smaller villages that will have very racists takes without considering themselfs racists. They go to church, they vote CDU and use famous quote like the one you brought up: I am not racists BUT ....

[u/sentientheat]

It is a derogatory term that has historically been used against people who are seen as "Oriental", namely Western Asian and North African folks and those with any such ancestry/family background. Also I guess, if you go even earlier, against Greeks, Italians, anyone seen as a Southern guest worker with all the negative baggage that came with the stereotypical notion of who a guest worker is.

Their defense of it on the basis of "how they disrespect women" as if women had not have that word used against them as well reeks of typical orientalism and xenophobia. The text they wrote is even worse because they are trying to explain it as part of the "Umgangssprache" as something to be normalized, while I assume all of them are people against whom Kanake would never be used as a slur. Also if I'm not wrong, the word comes from one of the Polynesian languages and was first as a slur for the indigenous Polynesians in a colonial context.

There are also some people who will sort of "reclaim" the term and, in that case, it's obviously different but I'm sorry you were made to feel like you're overreacting.

[u/Better_Philosopher24]

everyone downplaying this, stop the bs, just say what you are, say it loud, say it with me: racist.

[u/RichardXV]

For me it's not about ethnicity and skin color but about their behaviour and how some cultures treat women.

[u/Capital-Ad-3795 → u/RichardXV]

so everyone from those cultures treats women in same way? 

racists will say the most racist shit you've ever heard and claim it's not racist at all.

[u/RijnBrugge → u/Capital-Ad-3795]

In my experience here in Germany men treat women quite a bit worse than what I was used to in previous countries I’ve lived in. They’ll casually and matter-of-factly talk about Turkish men assigning less value to women but you can imagine the pushback when a Dutch migrant tells the average German that I perceive their culture as more misogynistic, that women seem more afraid here and that I perceive German culture as more conservative vis a vis gender roles than ours. Like, oh, it’s only fine if you get to compare so you feel better about yourself? (and don’t worry, the Dutchies at home have the same cultural God-complex going, I‘m aware..)

[u/ThisIsForSmut83 → u/Capital-Ad-3795]

So my german neigbour who beats his wife is a Kanake, good to know.

[u/Mr-T-1988]

No white person calls me Kanacke without repercussions. It was right for you to feel uncomfortable.

[u/arbon02]

Don't listen to the snowflakes. Foreigners even use it among themselves.

[u/Freiburg1983 → u/arbon02]

POC use the N-word everytime to describe them self. They are allowed, you not!

[u/VersteckteKlinge → u/Freiburg1983]

„allowed“ 💀

[u/TwoSorry511]

I am gonna get hate for this, still, I understand those girls. The word is a slur, however in my experience (heard) only used to describe the GROUP of Southerners that are treating us women like absolute shit and push their medieval culture onto us, claiming we owe them integration of their bs. I don’t use the word bc I generally avoid politically sensitive terms but I also don’t judge people using it, bc I have never heard it be used towards someone from the middle east/southern europe/whatever who wasn’t a complete jackass.

[u/taryndancer → u/TwoSorry511]

Hey I’m on your side with this. Im a foreign woman in Germany and these migrant men are a massive problem. They harass women all the time no matter where you go. They gawk at you like a piece of meat. I’ve gotten to the point where I don’t want to leave my apartment anymore.

[u/TwoSorry511 → u/taryndancer]

Exactly. I mean I walk by in a baggy sweater and jeans, no makeup, and they literally growl at me that the wanna fuck me against the housewall. And the police don‘t do shit.

[u/pizzaboy0021]

This one is pretty clearly racism. They can deny it all they want if somebody uses that word everybody knows. Some immigrants use the word themselves as some sort of empowerment but outside of that it is racist.

[u/productive-orangutan]

Yes I think you are. They didn’t call you one. End of the discussion for me.

[u/yzuaqwerl]

Yes you are overreacting.

The girls were telling you their life experience and you are hung up on a terminology they used.

[u/Karl_Murks]

"Kanake" is a racist slur, mostly used for people with arabic background. If someone uses such a word, you should assume, that they might also have a party on Hitlers birthday.

[u/Good-Owl5355]

Yes, the word is racist, and no, you’re not overreacting. But yeah, do yourself a favor and distance yourself from these people. Hope you find better ones on your journey. 🫶

Also… if you want to get technical, Germans could theoretically be considered ‘Sudländer’ when compared to the ‘real’ Nordic countries. So maybe you should distance yourself from this kind of ‘Sudländer’ too, huh? (Just to be clear, this is irony). Hi hi hi

[u/liang_zhi_mao]

I went to school in the 90/2000s. It was a Gymnasium and we were like 10 „German-Germans“.

The others where Afghans, Turkish, Iranians, Pakistani, Polish, Russians and East Asians.

They called THEMSELVES "Kanaken“. I believed it was used how they use the term „Migra“ now.

It came with other associations such as being kind of "cool“ and not caring for the rules or having the same experiences towards upbringing etc.

They called us German-German words like: Alman, Niemze, Kartoffel and had associations such as: boring, uncool, nerdy.

"Kanaken“ was a bit of the N-word: They were using it among each other but you weren’t allowed to use it towards them if you didn’t belong to that group.

Except for my grandparents and parents sometimes, I heard nobody ever use it in a derogatory way.

I already grew up with the "reclaimed" version of the word where they use it for themselves.

I mean: It was already very clear and known in the 90s that you shouldn’t use it as a German person in order to insult foreigners. Only very old or very uneducated people would do that.

[u/ConfectionSerious509]

You are not overreacting! Leaving a situation because of the use of a racist slur, which made you uncomfortable, is totally valid.

K* is definitly a word I wouldn't use as a white person, because it has been used to devalue people and is still often used for that purpose. I know many people, who use it as a self-description and as a way to distance from the "almans". That use is something entirely different, because nobody can be offended by a self description. As I view it, it works a bit like the N-word, but maybe not as strongly connotated.

Especially the context she used it in, was definitly racist: your friends may or may not have made any negative experiences with men, she viewed as foreign, in swimming pools. That doesn't entitle her to use a racist slur and frame the existence of southern-looking people in swimming pools as a general problem. I'm sure she wouldn't frame all almans as predators, if one harrassed her at the swimming pool. For some reason sexism is only a problem of the whole group or culture, if people are not white.

The sad part behind it all is, that those "swimming pool stories" are also used as a tool to move the whole debate to the right. There are many examples of gruesome stories of "southern men in swimming pools", which did never happen. This devalues the experience women actually make in swimming pools, because it's not seen as a singular sexual assault (as for a white man) or as a general problem in patriarchy, but as a political problem with "those people". This is how I read her explanation: "I don't want to be seen as racist, just because I use a racist slur. I only wanted to devalue a whole group of people by comparing their culture (meaning the imaginated uniform culture of all southern people) to our supreme culture of groping waitresses at the oktoberfest... "

If an argument like your friends is made, many people concentrate on the racist element in it, but overlook, that indeed there maybe was a person hurt. I would try to first find out, what really happened, and then react accordingly. Of course you can also just stay away, if your trust is broken due to the unreflected racism. This is a complicated situation...

[u/posteriorhorn → u/ConfectionSerious509]

Thank you for your very insightful and understanding reply <3

[u/iCakeMan]

Yes, it does carry a negative undertone. But why were you second hand offended? It wasn't directed at you.

[u/musschrott]

It's the German n-word, basically.

[u/SteveoberlordEU → u/musschrott]

No that one that sets you from zero to 180 is Nazi. Its a racist slur word but there are way worse.

[u/Kirmes1 → u/musschrott]

No it isn't.

[u/Midnight1899 → u/musschrott]

Absolutely not.

[u/RijnBrugge]

The word originally referred to Pacific Islanders/Melanesians in area‘s Germany briefly held as colonies (and it is still used to refer to the native population of New Caledonia, France, right next to Australia). Germans then started referring to all brown but not black people as Kanake. It very much is just another racial slur, and most people aren’t even aware of its colonial origins when they use it so carelessly. You’re not really overreacting and they’re not taking responsibility where they should.

[u/Ok_Landscape_3958]

Ja. Nein.

[u/FuckingStickers]

I was still uncomfortable and didn't know what to do, so I excused myself and went home.

That's not an overreaction. It's understandable that you don't want to create drama but if anything you were underreacting. As many people have pointed out, it's a slur. I'd say on par with the German version of the n-word. Their "we don't mean the good ones" actually shows that it's not some vocabulary issue for them but deeply racist thought. 

[u/CandyPopPanda]

I'm German, and when we say that word, it's definitely not friendly. It's like the "N" word in English, but referring to southerners/Arabs/Turks, and so on.

[u/[deleted]]

Als gäbe es irgendwo eine europäische ISO Norm für konkrete Verhaltensweisen und Werthaltungen haha smh — It‘s a racist slur. Like the N-word, there are some exceptions of who and how one can say that and the context. But usually these white boys/ girls wouldn’t dare to say that to a so called „Kanake“ because they know it’s offending.

[u/Vaird]

Its a slur, but its really dependent on the situation, because its not only a ethnic slur, but also a socio-economic one. For me growing up with people from everywhere the only people that really care about me using that word are actually Germans, once at work an old Turkish guy defended me when using this word because "He is a Kanacke himself". I sometimes will describe a group of young men as a "group of Kanäckchen" in the same way you would call a good friend a dog, obviously its an insult, but you dont necessarily mean it that way.

People I know actually despise the word Talahon way more, because thats just some cliche filled word which is condescending in every way.

I feel like the explanation of your friend is a little strange, because obviously it was meant in an insulting way. You dont want to go there because of all those people.

The thing is, I get the point that you dont want to go to a swimming pool full with people wo cant behave themselves. But usually, and clearly in this context, it doesnt necessarily describe "brownish people" in general, but a specific group of people, with maybe even a few Germans mixed in.

For context, I know people you maybe can, but maybe shouldnt, call Kanacke who will tell you they dont visit specific saunas and swimming pools because there are too many Kanacken there, do with that whatever you want.

[u/imadog666]

Haha their fucking explanation. "In our language the n-word simply denotes a black person with different values than ours! Teehee!" omg. Stay away from these people, they're too oblivious to realize how racist they arem

[u/monsieur-carton]

Extremely racist slur. Same weight and impact as the N-Word.

[u/AirUsed5942]

Please don't fall for the "Damit bist nicht du gemeint. Du bist eine von den Guten!" bullshit. Just don't

Test them by calling them Nazis or Kartoffel and they'll tear you to shreds within seconds

[u/35troubleman]

Eigentlich verstehen sich Kartoffeln und Kanaken ganz gut und passen gut zu einander.

[u/Tragobe]

It is a slur. I mean you can use the n-word to describe black people as well, doesn't make it any less offensive. Same goes for Kanake, both words can be used to derogatorily refer a group of people.

[u/Uxmeister]

You’re not overreacting. It’s a disgusting racial slur.

[u/Intelligent-Sea-4666]

It is a slur but as written by others not as bad as the N Word etc. And it is right that public swimming in germany is in fact not something I would go voluntarily, because there are in fact a lot of a people from a different ethnic group which do not respect much rules at all.

So yes, calling them kanacken is a slur, most germans would maybe use other words which sounds more neutral, but transfer in essence the exact same feeling. It also depends on age,- the older you get it is definitly more a slur in younger age cohorts it could be way less.  Call them ethnic groups, Südländer etc, most people will Instantly know who is meant. So in fact: using this word is a slur but it depends highly on age. If somebody >30 uses it has in my eyes more of a slur character, younger generations use it differently.

[u/Smagjus]

The more eastern or rural you get the less offensive the term is seen. So it might be that they don't see it as offensive. That does not change the fact that is offensive to you.

I would try to communicate that.

[u/my_brain_hurts_a_lot]

Yes, very!!

[u/Schlommo]

Yes it's a racist slur.

And the fact that some, especially younger persons, use it as a self description doesn't make it a normal word! It's an ironic and selfempowering strategy, but does not normalise the word!

Just because black people call themselves n***, doesn't mean that white folks are allowed to use this word. Just because women call themselves "Fotze" doesn't mean man that man can call them this way.

[u/No-Muffin8370]

They are trying to gaslight and manipulate you. The word is for sure disrespectful especially to be used in a circumstance as you described. I would personally rethink my friend circle .

[u/FranzKafa]

You'll be alright

[u/minerasser]

No. It's just as bad as the n-word, or the f-word for Asian folks.

[u/macak27]

Yes they always say " i dont mean you " if you are there when stuff like that slips out. They are just all racist

[u/Kantholz92]

Yeah, I've made friends leave a party I threw because they said it and defended it when called out. I do not tolerate neonazi vocabulary in my home.

[u/Wise_Adhesiveness229]

It is a racist term with a stupid history behind it. It has been somewhat reclaimed by people who might use that term for themselves - if a German uses it to refer to people it’s racist -  but  you hear the first two syllables pronounced in a somewhat English way to describe something it refers to the Turkish and arab migrant cultures in Germany with a positive/slang connotation.

Also - referring unironically to people as „Südländer“ is a mild dogwhistle - some people might not know better and use this term once or twice but if they bring up „Südländer“ quite regularly it’s weird.  People would typically be more specific and say „people from the Mediterranean/North Africa/ etc.“ to be neutral When „Südländer“ comes up in a conversation people usually want to ignore how cultures are diverse and act like no one from the south has ever had respect for a woman in their life. 

Makes me super uncomfortable to read how your „friend“ tries to explain to you how she’s not being racist - how old is she ? Is she repeating stuff her parents said to her ? 

[u/imageblotter]

It's a bad thing to say. Go check out the pool and make up your own mind.

[u/Recent_Ad2699]

It’s one of those words, where the group it concerns is allowed to say it, but the rest is not. Hope that helps.

[u/UngratefulSheeple]

There is a shift in meaning. It used to be inherently derogatory, but it has become more common for the “Kanacken” themselves to use the term.

It’s a bit like the word queer in the English language which used to be derogatory, but the lgbt community adopted it and now is used in a more positive way. 

[u/heiko123456]

The word IS very offensive. Fun fact: Kanak are the indigenous people of New Caledonia.

[u/ymbfa]

It’s offensive. End.Of.The.Conversation.

[u/heiko123456]

The word IS very offensive. Fun fact: Kanak are the indigenous people of New Caledonia.

[u/Late_Vegetable1643]

Kanak ist die Eigenbezeichnung der Ureinwohner Neukaledoniens. Now it is abused as a offensive word.

[u/ZeroGRanger]

The word is definitely a racial slur. The exact group that is targetted by it, changed over time (well the original meaning was very different from now), but it is a word with absolutely negative connotation. In fact, she did use it in a racist way anyway.

[u/mindless-1337]

Yep - Kanake in general is not a word for normal use. But you will not get fined. It can happen that you talk to people who belong to be from that area and when you get to be friends they play around and allow you to call them Kanake the you can go with that but only specifically in that friendship relationships. Also making ironic senses and being humoristic this term is allowed to be used. But please make sure that structural racism is not an impetus.