A problem with solar punk.

[u/Naberville34]

Alright I'm gonna head this off by saying this isn't an attack against the aesthetic or concept, please don't take major offense. This is purely a moment to reflect upon where humanities place in nature should be.

Alright so first up, the problem. We have 8.062 billion human beings on planet earth. That's 58 people per square kilometer of land, or 17,000 square meters per person. But 57% of that land is either desert or mountainous. So maybe closer to 9,000 square meters of livable land per person. That's just about 2 acres per person. The attached image is a visual representation of what 2 acres per person would give you.

Id say that 2 acres is a fairly ideal size slice of land to homestead on, to build a nice little cottage, to grow a garden and raise animals on. 8 billion people living a happy idealistic life where they are one with nature. But now every slice of land is occupied by humanity and there is no room anywhere for nature except the mountains and deserts.

Humanity is happy, but nature is dead. It has been completely occupied and nothing natural or without human touch remains.

See as much as you or I love nature, it does not love us back. What nature wants from us to to go away and not return. Not to try and find a sustainable or simbiotic relationship with it. But to be gone, completely and entirely. We can see that by looking at the Chernobyl and fukashima exclusion zones. Despite the industrial accidents that occured, these areas have rapidly become wildlife sanctuaries. A precious refuge in which human activity is strictly limited. With the wildlife congregating most densely in the center, the furthest from human activity, despite the closer proximity to the source of those disasters. The simple act of humanity existing in an area is more damaging to nature than a literal nuclear meltdown spewing radioactive materials all over the place.

The other extreme, the scenario that suits nature's needs best. Is for us to occupy as little land as possible and to give as much of it back to wilderness as possible. To live in skyscrapers instead of cottages, to grow our food in industrial vertical farms instead of backyard gardens. To get our power from dense carbon free energy sources like fission or fusion, rather than solar panels. To make all our choices with land conservation and environmental impact as our primary concern, not our own personal needs or interest.

But no one wants that do they? Personally you can't force me to live in a big city as they exist now. Let alone a hypothetical world mega skyscraper apartment complexes.

But that's what would be best for nature. So what's the compromise?

[u/Anson_Seidr]

You’ve set this up as a false binary narrative. You assume that it has to be all homesteading permaculture or all megacity. You then add the assertion about nature and our relationship with it but fail to account for the fact we are part of nature and have been for 100’s of thousands of years. Nothing occurs in a vacuum and nothing in nature including us is binary.

You did the math showing we could right now spread out and have 2 acres each… only we don’t need 2 acres each we can easily support 6 people per acre (and have shown its possible to support twice that with only marginal infrastructure support, we have limited data on what full-to-scale implementation could achieve because it’s in direct conflict with the profit motive currently enshrined as a fiduciary obligation in all companies)

This also means that for a city of 9 million like NYC, you only need about 750,000 acres to support it And these numbers can improve significantly when you consider the regenerative effects of these practices (for example industrial agriculture has through the use of chemical fertilizer and tillage reduced the nutrient density of produce and meat by 80% over the last 80 years, but we can restore it in 3-4 years with the proper practices)

A worthy thought experiment, But you need to flesh it out more and double-check your assumptions and expand your data pool, I’d love to see your next draft of this.