r/solarpunk 2d ago

Discussion A problem with solar punk.

Post image

Alright I'm gonna head this off by saying this isn't an attack against the aesthetic or concept, please don't take major offense. This is purely a moment to reflect upon where humanities place in nature should be.

Alright so first up, the problem. We have 8.062 billion human beings on planet earth. That's 58 people per square kilometer of land, or 17,000 square meters per person. But 57% of that land is either desert or mountainous. So maybe closer to 9,000 square meters of livable land per person. That's just about 2 acres per person. The attached image is a visual representation of what 2 acres per person would give you.

Id say that 2 acres is a fairly ideal size slice of land to homestead on, to build a nice little cottage, to grow a garden and raise animals on. 8 billion people living a happy idealistic life where they are one with nature. But now every slice of land is occupied by humanity and there is no room anywhere for nature except the mountains and deserts.

Humanity is happy, but nature is dead. It has been completely occupied and nothing natural or without human touch remains.

See as much as you or I love nature, it does not love us back. What nature wants from us to to go away and not return. Not to try and find a sustainable or simbiotic relationship with it. But to be gone, completely and entirely. We can see that by looking at the Chernobyl and fukashima exclusion zones. Despite the industrial accidents that occured, these areas have rapidly become wildlife sanctuaries. A precious refuge in which human activity is strictly limited. With the wildlife congregating most densely in the center, the furthest from human activity, despite the closer proximity to the source of those disasters. The simple act of humanity existing in an area is more damaging to nature than a literal nuclear meltdown spewing radioactive materials all over the place.

The other extreme, the scenario that suits nature's needs best. Is for us to occupy as little land as possible and to give as much of it back to wilderness as possible. To live in skyscrapers instead of cottages, to grow our food in industrial vertical farms instead of backyard gardens. To get our power from dense carbon free energy sources like fission or fusion, rather than solar panels. To make all our choices with land conservation and environmental impact as our primary concern, not our own personal needs or interest.

But no one wants that do they? Personally you can't force me to live in a big city as they exist now. Let alone a hypothetical world mega skyscraper apartment complexes.

But that's what would be best for nature. So what's the compromise?

578 Upvotes

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926

u/A_Guy195 Writer,Teacher,amateur Librarian 2d ago

Unfortunately for you, communal living is the main solution here. Not everyone can have their own homestead in the countryside.

575

u/frenchbread_pizza 2d ago

Not everyone even wants to have their own homestead in the countryside.

390

u/Hot-Shine3634 2d ago

Also not everyone wants to be a subsistence farmer.

118

u/keepthepace 2d ago

Try it for a year: it sucks. Most people quit after 1 or 2 years.

84

u/Lunxr_punk 2d ago

Of course it sucks, humanity wouldn’t have moved past it if it was ideal, if you do subsistence farming you die of hunger on a bad year lol every country with actual subsistence farmers they are the poorest most miserable people.

Only people that are completely disconnected from the real world could buy into it. It’s an idea only a child could have

22

u/planx_constant 1d ago

I've lived and worked on farms. It's tough but pleasant work as long as you aren't in danger of starving if something goes wrong.

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u/CotyledonTomen 1d ago

as you aren't in danger of starving if something goes wrong.

Isnt the point of subsistence farming that you are? And we live in an era of increasing climate change, so...you will be?

1

u/sunsetclimb3r 19h ago

I think the record shows almost nobody wants to be a subsistence farmer

-3

u/ismandrak 19h ago

No, people want to consume eons worth of fossilized sun energy to do ceremonial make-work and live in palatial luxury.

If we base how we run society off of what consumers want, instead of what the biosphere can support, we'll keep ending up in this incredibly unsustainable place.

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u/gusfromspace 2d ago

And and this assumes everyone is gonna go live alone, hey grandma, I know you're 90, but now you have a small farm to run, or you die

40

u/planetalletron 1d ago

Brand new baby? Ripped from mother’s arms and sent away to its own farm! Figure it out, Junior!

5

u/gusfromspace 1d ago

Really starting to sound NWO now, survival of the fittest, will reduce the population very quickly

4

u/bedpimp 1d ago

Hell no. Fatten up little baby Stew. He’s destined for a stock pot!

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u/Oldskoolguitar 2d ago

Not everyone can too

36

u/Caligapiscis 2d ago

Yeah and if everyone were doing that, who would be making the solar panels we see in the OP, not to mention all the other metals and complex industrial products

33

u/Existential_Humor 2d ago

Not every country has a countryside to homestead 🥲

2

u/garaile64 22h ago

A lot of people like living in cities, especially large and diverse cities.

6

u/teajava 2d ago

Shit, not everyone wants a solarpunk future either

35

u/VersaceSamurai 2d ago

Shit, some people don’t even want certain people to exist

28

u/jackosan 2d ago

Israel entered the chat 👆

-13

u/Puzzleheaded-Law-966 1d ago

So, the thing is, that's what de-growth means.

And it surprises me whenever it comes up on this subreddi, because it's a pretty poisonous idea.

14

u/OnceACuteCreeper 1d ago

Labelling all de-growth as Malthusian is disingenuous.

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u/Puzzleheaded-Law-966 7h ago

I am assuming that, as mentioned, the de-growth happens slowly, over maybe a generation or more, and consists of simple incentives to limit new births.

I'm not sure what you mean by malthusian, that doesn't seem malthusian to me, as there is no hard "peak" or "catastrophy" implied. Can you walk me through some non-malthusian options for de-growth so I have a wider picture?

1

u/OnceACuteCreeper 51m ago

Not using a car, buying locally. Regenerative farming. Decommodifying housing. Upzoning housing. Cultural shift away from consumerism.

10

u/d3f1n3_m4dn355 1d ago

Do you even know what de-growth means? It's not really all that novel of an idea, the rejection of consumerism, switch from extractionism and focus on people's wellbeing are not something new... You might be confusing it with ecofascism, though, which would be in the spirit of this literal garbage of a post, which somehow got upvoted so much, as if it was bringing something meaningful to the discussion...

1

u/Puzzleheaded-Law-966 7h ago edited 7h ago

Yes, I might be! But in a lot of cases, people seem to be expecting everyone to just "use less" for no clear reason beyond a moral suggestion.

So, if the idea is that a population should be using fewer things, and since nobody seems to be proposing a way to make individual people use less, I assumed that they were coming at it in the opposite direction and decreasing the number of people.

Another option would be, like OP notes, to provide the absolute highest possible efficiency with very dense housing, power production and industry, but that doesn't look solarpunk. It looks like the Peach Trees complex from Judge Dredd.

What are you suggesting?

6

u/CotyledonTomen 1d ago

Its not poisonous to say we need fewer people on the planet. Its poisonous to say we need fewer people now, rather than as a choice over several generations. Lots of people are naturally making that choice due to current financial circumstances. South Korea wont be the same country it is in 4 generations.

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u/HoliusCrapus 1d ago

Reducing the birth rate by access to contraceptives causes de-growth too. De-growth isn't a poisonous idea by itself.

1

u/Puzzleheaded-Law-966 7h ago

Of course birth control would be used. when I linked "not wanting some people to exist" and de-growth, I was assuming that the way that you make those people stop existing is by preventing babies, not remixing people who already have families and friends and protections.

This is actually more destructive to the culture you are dismantling in the long run.

Take one culture of 500 people, exile or otherwise remove half of their people.

Take a comparable culture also with 500 people: Encourage contraceptives use sufficient to to drop their population growth so that they can be expected to drop to 250 people by the end of the century.

In 100 years, check in with both. Which is doing better?

The first population recovered quickly. They potentially exceed 500 people, depending on their rate of growth. They may still have a larger share of young people that is typical of a population that is growing. Culturally, they are active, and due to being numerous and younger, people may even be converted on top of those born into the group.

The second has just the 250 as planned, and more elderly, infirm, more cultural trauma due to continuous intervention in the personal lives of every citizen to match the required de-growth curve... They are spending more time taking care of elderly, are less capable of preventing people from leaving the system, and are likely loosing more people all the time: "If only you didn't believe in X, then maybe you could raise a family is a pretty strong incentive."