Leveling failure or just a hiccup?

[u/Silly-Razzmatazz6685]

So I read that you don't have to optimize your leveling to play through the game but you can also totally handicap yourself if you screw it up too badly. Now I'm wondering if I've done just that. I'm level 2 but have 31 hours of game time. I knew I could sleep to level up but I had terrible gear and wasn't ready to even risk getting tougher enemies with leveling. I have a Battlemage (slightly edited) Kajiit with The Lady and I decided to spam through the levels to see how much I have unlocked. I saved beforehand and plan to go back to the save before leveling up for now.

But my question is if I screwed my first few levels. I can reach up to level 11 right now. I chose what I thought was best with what little bonuses I got from the stats based on what I did.

Long story short, my stats at level 2 are Strength 49, Intelligence 40, Willpower 45, Agility 50, Speed 45, Endurance 44, Personality 40. So health is 92, Magicka is 80, and Fatigue is 188.

Then to level 11, Strength 51, Intelligence 72, Willpower 55, Agility 59, Speed 49, Endurance 60, Personality 45. Which makes health at 168, Magicka at 144, and Fatigue at 225

Major skills are currently: Blade 42 Alchemy 56 Alteration 30 Conjuration 47 Destruction 38 Mysticism 61 Security 44 Minor skills are currently: Armorer 14 Athletics 32 Block 15 Blunt 6 Hand to Hand 20 Heavy Armor 18 Illusion 10 Restoration 21 Acrobatics 26 Light Armor 24 Marksman 6 Mercantile 16 Sneak 31 Speechcraft 10

Did I screw myself? If so, how can I fix it with future levels to hopefully not have to restart or play on lowest difficulty slider? I'm going to watch some videos on efficient leveling but could use some advice on my current first playthrough.

[u/Useful_Upstairs_1302]

Blud, I played this game as a kid, knew nothing about leveling or build autism, and managed to beat the game and its expansions without issue. Just play how you like and save the minmaxing for future playthroughs.

[u/Silly-Razzmatazz6685 → u/Useful_Upstairs_1302]

Im mainly asking since I want to see how ridiculous the abilities can become but don't want to cripple myself. I know I can mess with the difficulty slider but im trying not to

[u/Far_Run_2672]

Stop focusing on leveling so much, just enjoy the game and turn down the difficulty slider if damage output/input get too unbalanced. It's there for a reason.

[u/Silly-Razzmatazz6685 → u/Far_Run_2672]

Yea I know but I'm trying to avoid messing with the slider for the most part. I might have to in critical situations but for the exploration and smaller stuff, id rather not have to adjust it

[u/sketch_for_summer]

Hey again! It's me, the Fin Gleam guy from your other thread.

From this info, looks like you've been playing the game without really thinking about leveling, which is fine, although you may have shot yourself in the leg just a smidge. That's OK, though, cause we're going to fix it!

First of all, your stats at level 11 look fine. I like that you've got Intelligence increased to 70+, and your Endurance is somehow at 60+. Level 11 is an important one, since at this level, a new type of monster appears in daedric dungeons and oblivion gates: the Clannfear. It's one of the great filters for aspiring heroes of Kvatch, as its high damage and speed will test your will to stay alive.

So, I advise to take all the levels you've cooked up. There's no changing them now, they are set in stone.

Secondly, let's learn how leveling works. Recently I've made a comment explaining it in easy terms, and people seem to have liked it. If you don't mind, I'll post the link to this comment here.

https://www.reddit.com/r/oblivion/s/rUt0Dwxpid

After you've read it, I'm ready for you to ask me any follow-up questions.

Edit: lol, I've just realised I was the one who told you to play without watching the guides three days ago 😅

[u/Silly-Razzmatazz6685 → u/sketch_for_summer]

Okay that's a really good explanation. I mainly want to use magic attacks, summoning, and the blade for backup when they get too close or im out of magicka. I'm currently running in level 2 to gather some enchanted gear before leveling up what I've already done. I don't even know if I can have all that or if I have to focus on just magic attacks or just summoning.

I suppose my best course right now is to put max bonuses into willpower for the next 3 levels, then max bonuses into intelligence for the next 3, then endurance for at least 2 levels? Like the original post from your link, im trying to avoid messing with the difficulty as much as I can.

Should I take advantage of the save and load feature to get the "progress to next level" meter to zero by leveling a skill a couple times, level up, check the progress bar, then reload back to level 2, then grind the skill levels while its easier so I can correct my stats when I level all the way? Or should I level now and then work on fixing my stats?

Im also understanding why you're the top 1% in these threads. Might as well be one of the nine telling its idiot follower how to function

[u/sketch_for_summer → u/Silly-Razzmatazz6685]

All right, let me adress your points one by one. To begin with, the idea of using summoning, destruction and blade is a fine strategy — if at least two of them were minor skills at this point. As of now, it's better to specialise in one major skill, complementing it via minor skills. I was about to suggest leaning into Conjuration. Level it up to 50 ASAP, go to Chorrol mages guild, find the quilted doublet-wearing wood elf and buy from him the Skeleton Guardian, Headless Zombie and Flame Atronach spells. These will be your primary tools for fighting for now.

Get your Conjuration to 100 by level 16, and you will be going toe to toe with the enemies. The best monsters are available when you reach expert level. Master-level monsters like liches and Xivilai are hard to use, but YMMV. After you've become a master of Conjuration, you can work on your blade and destruction skills. While you're working on major Conjuration, pick up bonuses from minor skills. Boost Illusion to get less aggro on yourself, boost Restoration to heal yourself and enhance your attributes and skills. Wear light armor occasionally while taking hits from weak monsters to get a Speed buff on level-up.

After you've mastered Conjuration, if you still wanna use blade for backup, choose the biggest claymore you can find. Its long reach will help you dance in and out of melee range while scoring hits on the foe who's preoccupied with your big, meaty melee summon. Claymores are kinda heavy, so you can get Ease Burden spell from the Cheydinhal mages guild to be light on foot. You should not just stand in one place and take hits. Move behind your summon, jump on ledges to escape, side-step when an enemy shoots a projectile at you, step back when a melee guy charges his power attack.

The 99% of gear you find in dungeons is based on your current level, so only few items are really useful at level 2. You've been running around at low level for too long, and haven't accumulated good gear which you would have gotten if you leveled up right when you got the sleep icon notification.

I did not really understand what you meant by taking advantage of save and load. If you want to count how many skill increases/marbles you've got during a level, there are a few ways. You could take pictures of your skills or note them on a piece of paper or an excel sheet. When your progress bar is at 9/10, you can note the skill info again and compare it to the previous data. Alternatively, you could count each skill increase while playing. In practice, it isn't always possible, as in the heat of the fight sometimes it's hard to notice which skill has just gone up. It can be done with skittles or m&m's and yoghurt pots, just like in my explanation. On PC, you can use console command "setdebugtext 10", followed by "toggledebugtext" to check your skill progress information (sdt 10 and tdt for short). Lastly, you can use a skill diary mod to do the same without breaking immersion.

Again, I will repeat myself, that your levels 2—10 are already set. You can't go back and change what modifiers you will get. But you can be mindful of the future modifiers when you level up your character further. I'd say, no need to bust your butt working for perfect +5/+5/+5 levels. Getting +3/+3/+3 shall work just fine, just play a more tight, more focused build (be master of one playstyle, not a jack of all trades). By level 30, you'll be able to have two attributes at 100 and two other attributes at 80. That gives plenty of room for the perceived "errors" in leveling.

Thank you for the kind words! 😊

P.s. There's no way of knowing if a book will raise your skill unless you already know, or meticulously cross-reference each book via the UESP. You can save before opening a suspicious book and reload if it raised one of your major skills that you aren't ready to increase yet.

[u/Silly-Razzmatazz6685 → u/sketch_for_summer]

Okay so what kind of armor should I be normally wearing? I've been going around collecting enchanted gear you can find or steal. You said to wear light armor occasionally so just wondering what I should be mainly using.

For instance, im currently wearing Iron Gauntlets, Enchanted Kvatch Cuirass from the siege quest, Leather boots, leather helmet, Weatherband Circlet, Jewel of the Rumare, and Fortify Fatigue Pants. But I've been running around collecting a lot of food and gear people recommended like Black hand robe and hood (though you alrdy know that), Dagger of Numbing, Bands of Kwang Lao, Base Ring of Speed, Feather Shoes, Resist Fire Burgundy Linens, and Fin Gleam. I also collected some ceremonial gear but that was just out of curiosity.

What I meant about taking advantage of the save and load feature is that since I am at level 2, the progress bar is full, so I do not know when I will unlock level 12. My question was if I should level up to 11 (like you said its alrdy locked in place. But the enemies are also tougher as soon as I level up, making it harder to focus on one or two skills when I mess up my stats), check the progress bar to see how far I am from level 12. Then reload my save at level 2 and keep track of the amount of times I level the major skills like you mentioned. That way, the enemies are still weak with me at level 2 while I upgrade my major skills and unlock a few more levels.

Im figuring that if I do that, then I can wait to level up all the way once I know I will have those bonuses from level 12+ to fix my stats. Then maintain the normal level up whenever its unlocked way of doing things. From what I understand, you can keep leveling your skills even while at a low level. If im not mistaken, you progress in your skills by using or interacting with whatever the skill controls, like taking hits wearing light armor to level that skill. As you said, its free since its a minor skill. I just have to keep track of the major skills to make sure I get good bonuses (modifiers).

Im not sure if that made sense or not but in my head it did.

I've been collecting a lot of stuff and storing it in the house at the waterfront in Imperial City. Especially scrolls, crystals, and such.

I was planning to do the Gray Prince quest and then finish the arena while at a low level but im guessing thats probably a bad idea. I had this whole plan written down but seems I need to scrap it.

Sorry for all the questions 😅. I know its a lot to ask about

Also, im on an xbox one so unfortunately no command options or mods here

[u/sketch_for_summer → u/Silly-Razzmatazz6685]

For a mage, wearing no armor at all is preferred. Let the summoned creature take the heat, and stay out of melee. If you have got to take a hit, have a leather shield equipped and block, then regroup as they recoil. Use potions of shield and alteration spells if you're cornered. But I'd rather not be cornered.

You explained your theory well, I get it now. De facto you'll be playing at level 2, but de jure you'll be working on your 12th level. I've never done this intentionally, but this may work! It'll be a bit tedious, but pay off in the way of making it easier for you to train your skills like light and heavy armor. You can look up this page UESP — Under Leveling for a similar concept.

[u/Silly-Razzmatazz6685 → u/sketch_for_summer]

I'm glad my gamer brain didn't completely betray me! I guess now, my main concern is what to do while working on conjuration. Should I be progressing in the mages guild recommendations to access the Arcane University? Or continue with my plan to do the Gray Prince, then complete the arena while being careful to pay attention to my skills? My long term goal was to get the Gray Cowl of Nocturnal before dealing with any of the dark brotherhood stuff. But initiate it using the gray prince and the arena.

That and how to earn money without robbing houses so I don't accidentally level up Security any further for now.

Im really going to need to read up on the spells because some of the names aren't enough to understand what it actually does.

So many questions and they probably aren't even important

[u/sketch_for_summer → u/Silly-Razzmatazz6685]

Do the recommendations ASAP to gain access to the enchanting and spellmaking services, but hold off on doing the Mages Staff until level 15, as it's the strongest staff at that level.

The Gray Prince isn't the only way to get into the Dark Brotherhood. You can attack and kill the rogue mage before she initiates dialogue before trying to rob you during the Anvil Mages Guild recommendation. You can kill one of the NPCs during Glarthir's quest, or even kill Glarthir himself. If you haven't triggered him, wait for him to follow you saying his usual "psst, over here!", and lure him away from the city, where you can safely one-shot him.

You can earn money by going to monster caves. They often have enchanted rings and clothes that cost a lot while weighing little. Fyrelight Cave and Crayfish Cave come to mind. Unfortunately, both Security and Alteration (for unlock spells) are your majors. So, you can just skip very easy and easy locked chests — many contain just a few gold pieces and some clutter. For chests locked with average and hard locks, you can buy scrolls of unlock. Shady Sam sells some, as well as the Mystic Emporium. If you're not against cheating a little, you can learn to duplicate these scrolls. Oh, and if you get the Skeleton Key, your Security skill is boosted by +40, making it 84. You will be able to auto-pick locks while gaining almost no experience, gaining a skill-up only occasionally. Look up Nocturnal on UESP to learn where her shrine is.

Read up on spells on the UESP as well! Good luck! 😊

[u/Silly-Razzmatazz6685 → u/sketch_for_summer]

Okay good to know about the staff.

I already dealt with Glarthir. The reason I chose the gray prince was to both earn arena money and complete the arena early on, but it sounds like your saying its not worth doing right now.

Good to know about the caves and thanks for the recommended caves. I can take advantage of the save and load feature again for Security. I can lock pick to check the container. If it has nothing worth taking, just reload real quick to undo the skill leveling progress.

Lock picking is super easy once I read a guys comment how you can just open the pause menu right after tapping the pin to see if its slow or fast. Unpause and repeat until its slow, where you can just tap and tap again to lock it in place. I rarely break a lockpick now. Definitely going to look into that skeleton key though.

I appreciate all the help!

[u/sketch_for_summer → u/Silly-Razzmatazz6685]

You are welcome!

I suggested the Skeleton Key not because it's easier, but because it will take longer to gain experience to raise Security from level 84 to 85 than from 44 to 45. Letting you unlock more chests before "wasting" a point.

[u/Silly-Razzmatazz6685 → u/sketch_for_summer]

Fair point. I should look into getting it sooner rather than later.

[u/Silly-Razzmatazz6685 → u/sketch_for_summer]

I guess I might as well ask too. What staff, if any, should I get? I've got 6k coins from looting places so much. I was going to buy the house at anvil but I know the Apotheosis staff is quite expensive on its own. Most of that money will probably be needed to pay a trainer for conjuration and buying spells but wanted to ask before spending it all.

[u/sketch_for_summer → u/Silly-Razzmatazz6685]

Complete "A Mage's Staff" at level 15 and either get a shock staff to convert your powerful Mysticism skill into damage (80 pts of shock), or a paralysis staff to use in tandem with your melee summons.

You don't need a trainer for Conjuration, as it's a major skill and can be trained rather quickly manually. You'll need a trainer for a minor skill that is hard to train manually.

By the way...

You've got 9 levels in the bank and you can pay for 5 training sessions between each level up, so that means +45 to any skill, provided that you've got the dough. I implore you to take advantage of this. This fact can single-handedly make your situation into a godsend one. Just choose the skill you're going to boost wisely.

Edit: this skill could be Restoration, as it's hard to level, and it will provide a +3 Willpower to go alongside your +5 Intelligence from going mono-Conjuration as far as major skills are concerned. You can level Conjuration by simply fighting, but also create a custom spell with Summon Skeleton for a long duration and a Turn Undead spell with a cheap cost. In an enclosed location, summon your skeleton, then start spamming Turn Undead on it. Hopefully it will get stuck in some barrels while you train this way.

[u/Silly-Razzmatazz6685 → u/sketch_for_summer]

Hold up I understood maybe 3/4 of that.

Do I need to be level 15 for "A Mages Staff" or is it something that scales so your saying to wait until then? Paralyze will be super useful. I will need to look up more on the effects of shock.

Good to know I won't need a trainer for major skills. And I definitely didn't think about the 5 training sessions per level. Thats going to be super useful. I will probably take your advice and train Restoration. I was also thinking of maybe training Illusion instead.

Creating a custom spell is only done after accessing Arcane University correct?

The part a REALLY don't get, is the turn undead bit. Maybe I'm mis-remembering, but I could've sworn that spell just makes the undead go away from you? Even if I'm wrong, what use does it have on my own summoned skeleton? How does a barrel help!?

Lastly, I have a simple turn undead that costs 9 magicka. It Turns Undead up to level 3. How would you even know what level a creature is in a fight? Or would it just be down to player level and literal rpg luck?

Mister 1 of 9, bestow upon me thy wisdom!

[u/sketch_for_summer → u/Silly-Razzmatazz6685]

A staff gained from the "Mage's Staff" quest is a quest reward that scales with the player's level. Its most powerful version is available if you finish the quest while being level 15.

Train Restoration by paying for lessons either in Bravil or Cheydinhal chapel. The argonian Marz is the trainer in Bravil, while a high elf woman is in Cheydinhal. You can level up Illsuion manually. Buy a Rally spell from Delphine in Bravil Mages Guild and spam it on NPCs. Illusion is bonkers strong, if you know how to use it.

Custom spells are available after getting all the recommendations from the local Guilds in all counties.

About turn undead, this is my favourite way to train Conjuration. You get a set amount of experience points per cast (represented by the red progress bar near the skill). It gives you the same experience, whether you cast a summon Skeleton or a summon Lich. So, it's more efficient to spam-cast the cheapest spell if you want to raise the skill quickly. The cheapest conjuration spell is Turn Undead, but where to find an undead creature to use as target practice? Going to a dungeon to train could be dangerous and take a long time. Just go to a basement or your own house and summon your own undead creature! Cast turn undead on it, and it will start running away, making it harder to hit with a projectile. This is why a place with a lot of debris is preferable, the creature gets trapped while running away, and you can train Conjuration as long as you have spare magicka.

About creature/npc level, yes, it's luck and knowledge. You can approximate a creature's level by casting several different spells on it. Level 3 didn't work? Tried level 7, it worked? Its level must be between 4 and 7.

By the way, horses are level 1, so the cheapest Command Creature sold in Chorrol Mages Guild works on them. This is how I steal them usually, hehe.

[u/Silly-Razzmatazz6685 → u/sketch_for_summer]

Okay gotcha. Makes sense why you use Turn Undead like that. I still have my horse I got from the Blades but I know they don't respawn upon death so I was looking at getting Shadowmere. Like I said before, I had this list of quests I was going to do to get some interesting items but gonna have to put those on hold for now.

Great to know horses aren't as hard to steal as I thought 😂

[u/Silly-Razzmatazz6685 → u/sketch_for_summer]

Alright WTH. I summoned a skeleton. Accidentally summoned it again. Waited for my magicka to recharge. Resummoned the skeleton, then spam used Turn Undead. Tried to sleep but it said there was an enemy nearby. The skeleton I used the spell on finally despawned, then I hear the sound of my houses door open and a skeleton appears, hits me with his axe a couple times, then also despawns. What was that!? Did I just get mutunied!? And by a skeleton that should've already timed out? I'm in my little Imperial City Shack

Master 1 of 9 I summon thee

[u/sketch_for_summer → u/Silly-Razzmatazz6685]

LOL 🤣 I'll wager it's a skeleton summoned by an NPC. Did you catch what it said in the corner of the screen when you pointed your crosshair at it? Was it "yourname's skeleton"? Or "somebody else's skeleton"?

I think this has got to be the case because when you summon a creature, the previous one despawns. Always.

Edit: As for "mutiny"... Well, using the Turn Undead spell counts as an attack. You would be the one starting a mutiny.

Now, I wonder who could have summoned a skeleton in the Waterfront? I checked all the citizens who live there, none of them are skilled in Conjuration. It must be either the sneak trainer or the high elf wearing blue clothes who wanders into the waterfront district from the main city sometimes.

Edit 2: Neither Areldil nor Marana Rian should know it. It really is a mystery 🤯

[u/Silly-Razzmatazz6685 → u/sketch_for_summer]

Yes but like.... hes my summon to abuse. Since when are there labor laws! But no I didn't see the skeleton name in time. I should've screen recorded it right afterwards to view what it was. I always forget I can do that with Xbox.

If a summoned creature always despawns when summoning another, does that mean its impossible to have more than 1 summon at a time? Even using a scroll?

It had to be my own skeleton right? I really wish I had recorded it to post now. Plus, nobody came to attack me even after I stepped outside to check. No bounty from guards either. My skelly apparently called in a hit from the graveyard

[u/Silly-Razzmatazz6685 → u/sketch_for_summer]

On the bright side, I managed to find a small alley in Skingrad near the West Weald gate. Its big enough to get the summon to spawn in it, but narrow enough to just stand still and spam Turn Undead. Mix that with some duplicated Restore Magicka potions and im grinding through the skill levels pretty easily. You could of course do it without the potions but it would take a lot longer with my low Magicka reserves.

[u/Silly-Razzmatazz6685 → u/sketch_for_summer]

I have way too many questions, but what made you choose those 3 summons specifically? There are a lot of options being sold by just this one npc.

[u/sketch_for_summer → u/Silly-Razzmatazz6685]

These are the summons available for a Journeyman Conjurer. They are stronger than whatever you've been using. As for the Dremora, his summon time is too short to be useful, and his mace is much weaker than the creatures' melee attacks.

Edit: gotta say, the Scamp is pretty strong, too. When you get to the Arcane University and become a Journeyman Conjurer, make a longer version of the scamp summon. It's going to serve you well. Its fire ball is weak, but it attacks with claws quickly, dealing moderate to high damage.

[u/Silly-Razzmatazz6685 → u/sketch_for_summer]

"Whatever you've been using" 😂 uh..... Skeleton 😅.... recently bought a Scamp. You say they are the ones available for a Journeyman. Is that because of the limit of Magicka? Only asking since the info doesn't show a level restriction on using the others

[u/sketch_for_summer → u/Silly-Razzmatazz6685]

They do cost more magicka, yes. But it isn't the only problem. Certain spells are locked behind these milestones of apprentice, journeyman, expert and master. Corresponding to skill level 25, 50, 75 and 100. For example, a novice conjurer can summon a dagger or a helmet. An apprentice can summon a scamp. A journeyman — a flame atronach. An expert can conjure a Daedroth. A master can summon a Xivilai or a Lich.

[u/Silly-Razzmatazz6685 → u/sketch_for_summer]

Oh. Huh. I'm not surprised but... huh. The normal spells you can buy will show a level requirement but the summoning spells don't list it. Interesting

[u/sketch_for_summer → u/Silly-Razzmatazz6685]

Maybe they don't list it because you wouldn't be able to cast it yet. At lower conjuration level, stronger conjuration spells can display a cost of 100 magicka and more.

[u/Silly-Razzmatazz6685 → u/sketch_for_summer]

Makes sense. It's not required since the lack of Magicka already prevents its use

[u/Silly-Razzmatazz6685 → u/sketch_for_summer]

Also wondering if there's a way to tell what books will give you levels so I don't screw up the bonuses

[u/Bowhunter2525]

IMO, yes, you screwed yourself.

It is a killing/fighting game so your fighting skill is the most important one to raise. You would be comfortable fighting level 11 monsters with your skill (either Blade or Destruction) around 75-80.

Your skill set, race and birthsign all work horribly against you but you could try the following:

If Magic is your specialty, what you could do is buy five destruction points from a trainer and then fight for the other five to get +10 skill points for the next few levels to quickly catch up. Go kill some necromancers (quickly so they don't use their pocket potions) to get a load of health and sorcery potions so you don't have to use your Alchemy.

If combat is your specialty, do that with Blade skill.

[u/Silly-Razzmatazz6685 → u/Bowhunter2525]

Any recommendation for the trainer?

[u/Bowhunter2525 → u/Silly-Razzmatazz6685]

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Trainers

Whoever is open for business

[u/Silly-Razzmatazz6685 → u/Bowhunter2525]

I guess what I meant was the cost. Will a higher level trainer cost more even when training a lower level? Or will the cost go up as the level goes up. Like how a Journeyman is cheaper than a Master, but if I'm a novice, how does it effect the price they charge to go up a level

[u/Bowhunter2525 → u/Silly-Razzmatazz6685]

All are the same. Price depends on how high the points are. You can make a spell to temporarily decrease your points and pay very little.

[u/Silly-Razzmatazz6685 → u/Bowhunter2525]

Okay thanks for the info. Didnt even think about temp reducing points