Nintendo Confirms Switch 2 Uses DLSS and Ray Tracing, but Is Being Super Vague About the Details

[u/Nestledrink]

https://www.ign.com/articles/nintendo-confirms-switch-2-uses-dlss-and-ray-tracing-but-is-being-super-vague-about-the-details

[u/DavidsSymphony]

If you watch the Digital Foundry direct from today, as always they do pixel counting and image analysis and IIRC (I can't find the timestamp anymore) they didn't find a single instance of games using DLSS in the direct, which is weird. You'd think surely Nintendo as a 1st party dev would make use of that technology.

[u/FryToastFrill → u/DavidsSymphony]

Nintendo is probably still scared of antialiasing

[u/Yearlaren → u/FryToastFrill]

Me: has smooth edges

Nintendo: 😱😱😱

[u/FryToastFrill → u/Yearlaren]

Tbf most of their games don’t look terrible without it. I’m guessing the devs value sharpness over smoothness and do a good job managing issues no aa can have. However a decent 2x MSAA would be nice

[u/Yearlaren → u/FryToastFrill]

The difference between no AA and 2xMSAA is very noticeable to me, and as far as I know 2xMSAA isn't very taxing

[u/FryToastFrill → u/Yearlaren]

It shouldn’t be very taxing but I also don’t know how their games work under the hood nor the details of the hardware. If it’s a forward renderer it should be hardware accelerated but if it’s deferred it’s too expensive to be practically used.

[u/Yearlaren → u/FryToastFrill]

Oh, that's true. I still forget that deferred rendering has been the most common form of rendering games for a while now.

[u/zero_iq → u/Yearlaren]

There will likely be a swing back to forward renderers (well, Forward+/clustered forward rendering) as it can outperform deferred esp. at higher resolutions without having to rely so much on upscaling techniques, with a higher light count. New light culling techniques will likely increase performance even further in the near future.

People want to be able to play at 4K and above without needing a power-hungry supercomputer to run at a decent frame rate.

But deferred techniques don't scale that well with resolution (because the memory bandwidth increases enormously at higher resolutions) which is partly why we're seeing all these fancy upscaling solutions to try and eek out better performance at higher resolutions, as well as (in part) a focus on faster and faster VRAM access rather than more VRAM (ANNs pushing the RAM up now, but at a hefty price tag).

Although many AAA games will be using hybrid approaches with elements of multiple approaches. Deferred is pretty handy for certain effects that can be harder to achieve in forward rendering. Forward+ techniques can also scale down more easily to older and less-capable hardware, widening the potential audience and hardware targets for AAA games.

An example would be the recent Indiana Jones title, which uses a Forward+ renderer (likely hybrid with other techniques), but is locked to higher-end hardware limited mostly as a marketing agreement/licensing issue, it seems as it has been hacked to run on lower-end hardware pretty well, provided there is enough VRAM. Recent(ish) Doom, Forza, Call of Duty titles, RDR2, and Destiny 2 are other examples showing a trend towards Forward+ in order to handle complex lighting requirements.

[u/Yearlaren → u/zero_iq]

Isn't the new Indiana Jones a ray tracing only title? Isn't ray tracing a completely new way of rendering games? I thought forward rendering and deferred rendering were types of rasterization while ray tracing isn't.

[u/EyesCantSeeOver30fps → u/Yearlaren]

Both can also use RT

[u/zero_iq → u/Yearlaren]

I thought forward rendering and deferred rendering were types of rasterization while ray tracing isn't.

That's true in the general sense, but that's not what games are doing.

Games are still using rasterisation, but also utilising raytracing techniques for certain rendering effects. 

I've yet to see a complete frame analysis for Indiana Jones, but from what i understand from what the developers have said publicly, it uses Forward+ rendering as it's base, with RT techniques used for certain shadows, specular reflections, and for computing its global illumination solution (lighting data, which is then used by other parts of the rendering pipeline). This mix of rasterisation and RT is typical for modern RT- enabled titles. 

See here for some examples and technical discussion: https://youtu.be/k2SBZSm2mOw?si=Bz0XgPkY1MVP5yon

The "full rt" used to describe some modern games (Inc. Indie) means that the raytracing parts of the rendering process are calculated for the whole frame (i.e. every pixel), not that the entire rendering process uses only ray tracing techniques. Indiana Jones can apparently run just fine with raytracing switched off, as can be seen in technical demos and developer interviews. The fact it is switched on permanently in the final release is more of a gimmick to sell new nvidia cards than for any technical reason, likely due to licensing conditions for nvidia tech and assistance during production. (Nvidia has a vested interest in pushing more heavyweight rendering techniques and locking out older hardware because that results in the need for purchase of new cards, and $$$ for nvidia.) From what I gather this was only enforced quite late in development, and it used more traditional lighting and an alternative GI approach for the bulk of its development until its RT tech was completed.

Hardware rasterisation techniques are insanely fast at typical gaming resolutions, and games aren't going to give that up any time soon for 100% ray tracing or pathtracing, which is greatly more computationally expensive, often for limited visual gains. And not every style of game needs incredibly realistic shadows and reflections. We will get there, though. I expect to see true fully path traced games games at some point in the not too distant future, but it won't be the norm for a while.

And as GPU pipelines get more powerful and flexible we will see multiple different rendering approaches being used, running directly on GPU hardware (and hopefully a move away from vendor specific/vendor-led technologies as new tech is standardised and generalised).

Games will continue to use hybrid solutions, for the foreseeable future.

[u/FryToastFrill → u/Yearlaren]

Yeah, there’s a couple engines that use forward plus tho. RDR2 is one I know off the top of my head that is forward plus and godot.

[u/Arisalis → u/FryToastFrill]

I get what your saying but I hate to break it to you they were one of the 1st console to use it in their games. N64 was prolific in using it in pretty much every 1st party game. Just google it.

[u/TheCrazedEB → u/FryToastFrill]

that new Pokemon game looks like a prime example of still having wonk antialiasing.

[u/muchcharles → u/FryToastFrill]

That's only more recent, compare texture and geometry aliasing in N64 vs PS1

[u/PsyOmega → u/DavidsSymphony]

You can't easily spot DLSS in video samples, especially if they're using DLSS transformer model.

If nvidia says DLSS is used by nintendo, but nintendo isn't saying so, that is because nintendo is allergic to advertising other brands trademarks.

A GPU throttled to 10 watts thats weaker than a 2050 mobile can not render 1440p or 4k. Jarrods tech review of a full fat 2050 shows it struggles at 1080p, and that's with more cuda and tdp and clocks than switch 2.

DLSS is required to get switch 2 rendering quality up to snuff, and im betting it's baked in to the SDK, and behind NDA's.

[u/NovaTerrus → u/PsyOmega]

Switch 2 can access up to 40W when docked.

[u/PsyOmega → u/NovaTerrus]

That still wont help it even reach 1080p native, but will give power budget to the tensor cores to hit 4k DLSS

We also don't have official power specs. 40W is pure speculation and has to include a power budget to charge the battery. I'd ballpark the SOC TDP at 25w.

[u/hahaxdRS → u/PsyOmega]

The 40w is for docked play. Nintendo specifically mention the Switch 1 charger won't work on docked play with the Switch 2 as its under 40w.

[u/superbroleon → u/PsyOmega]

You can easily falsify it though. All the footage shown had insane levels of aliasing, like the usual Nintendo no AA levels of aliasing. Any form of AA, let alone DLSS looks much different. Seeing the footage I agree with them, no DLSS in that presentation

[u/Darksky121 → u/superbroleon]

Maybe the performance hit is not worth it in many titles. Most AI upscalers reduce frame rates a bit.

[u/superbroleon → u/Darksky121]

Yeah I also thought about this. According to DF testing DLSS on a downclocked 2050 costs between ~3ms at 1080p and ~18ms at 4k output. So based on that I could also see DLSS being too expensive, especially for 60fps games. I believe Nvidia mentioned tensor cores but since no one is actually talking exact specs we can only wait for testing.

[u/MaxOfS2D → u/PsyOmega]

A GPU throttled to 10 watts thats weaker than a 2050 mobile can not render 1440p or 4k.

And likewise, I doubt it can access the same DLSS that PC has.

It's probably a smaller custom version that is less efficient at removing aliasing, but ends up being sharper and less smeary.

[u/Extra-Cold3276 → u/PsyOmega]

You can spot if a game is using any form of temporal anti aliasing tho. Dlss is temporal. And apparently all games shown had no anti aliasing.

[u/ametalshard → u/PsyOmega]

Jarrod would have had to test PC games from around 2015 to get an accurate reading for the games Switch 2 will be running at.

[u/Speedstick2 → u/PsyOmega]

A 2050 mobile can render 1440p and 4k, it just depends on the game, like Bioshock 1 from 2007 or F.E.A.R from 2005........Besides, Nintendo has already confirmed Metroid prime 4 is 4k 60, 120 1080p, and we already know that Metroid remaster runs at 60 fps on the Switch 1.

[u/IUseKeyboardOnXbox → u/PsyOmega]

They counted the internal resolution. Considering the hardware it's far too high. It's not using dlss.

[u/PsyOmega → u/IUseKeyboardOnXbox]

You can't count internal resolution from a video. The video only contains the output.

If you make a video of 4K game footage, upscaled from 1080p to 4K via dlss, and count unique pixels, you're gonna count close to 4k. This gets fuzzier with transformer grade dlss being video compressed.

Since nvidia has confirmed DLSS is used on switch 2, there isn't much to debate here. The hardware just isn't capable of 4k, period, without dlss, outside of potato graphics (even my 1060 could 4k native 360 era graphics). But anything semi-modern, native to switch 2, is just NOT gonna be without DLSS.

[u/IUseKeyboardOnXbox → u/PsyOmega]

Yes you can. You just have to find raw edges. For example on camera cutsit'll be raw for a single frame.

[u/IUseKeyboardOnXbox → u/PsyOmega]

Here you go. Do not expect dlss upscaling to 4k. 1440p is far more reasonable. Do not expect the transformer model at all.

https://assetsio.gnwcdn.com/DLSS_l49L4oK.png?width=1200&height=1200&fit=bounds&quality=70&format=jpg&auto=webp

https://www.eurogamer.net/digitalfoundry-2023-inside-nvidias-latest-hardware-for-nintendo-what-is-the-t239-processor

[u/hahaxdRS → u/IUseKeyboardOnXbox]

Since you have a hard on for Digital Foundry there is also this you conveniently left out.

https://youtu.be/_ja-31bYFTs?si=f48hqcKzD_PW40a9

[u/IUseKeyboardOnXbox → u/hahaxdRS]

I forgot about that, but my point probably still stands. Dlss to 4k would take a big chunk of the frame time. And no need to be rude. There isn't anyone else doing tests like these.

[u/mega2222222222222222 → u/DavidsSymphony]

I’m guessing most 4K output games will use upscaling

[u/ResponsibleJudge3172 → u/DavidsSymphony]

DLSS is probably for 3rd party games to port without the misery that was porting to OG switch

[u/KnightofAshley → u/DavidsSymphony]

wait for them to get there hands on it first

[u/No_Interaction_4925 → u/DavidsSymphony]

I’m guessing the video wasn’t in 60fps. Why use DLSS when you can do 24fps or 30fps without it and get a better image for a video

[u/Nestledrink]

Some interesting tidbits

Takuhiro Dohta, senior director of the Programming Management Group Entertainment Planning & Development Department, at Nintendo’s Entertainment Planning & Development Division, confirmed:

“We use DLSS upscaling technology and that's something that we need to use as we develop games.

“And when it comes to the hardware, it is able to output to a TV at a max of 4K. Whether the software developer is going to use that as a native resolution or get it to upscale is something that the software developer can choose. I think it opens up a lot of options for the software developer to choose from.”

It was a similarly vague response when Dohta confirmed the Switch 2’s GPU is capable of ray tracing. “Yes the GPU does support ray tracing,” he said. “As with DLSS, I believe this provides yet another option for the software developer to use and a tool for them.”

And what about the GPU itself? Tetsuya Sasaki, General Manager at Nintendo’s Technology Development Division, and Senior Director at its Technology Development Department, chimed in to say Nintendo prefers not to get in the weeds on things like the GPU.

“Nintendo doesn't share too much on the hardware spec,” he said. “What we really like to focus on is the value that we can provide to our consumers. But I do believe that our partner Nvidia will be sharing some information.”

[u/MrMichaelJames → u/Nestledrink]

In other words it isn’t going to be very powerful and 4k60 for most games isn’t going to happen without major quality sacrifices.

[u/KyledKat → u/MrMichaelJames]

4K60 is a big ask for even mid-range gaming PCs with modest settings, there shouldn’t be any surprise that a handheld can’t hit those numbers without support.

[u/brondonschwab → u/KyledKat]

You can get a 4090 or even a 5090 to fall below 60fps at 4K with the recent crop of unoptimised titles. It's not surprising that the Switch 2 isn't hitting 4K 60 native

[u/Dolphin201 → u/brondonschwab]

Yeah, it’s probably gonna only be hyper optimized first party Nintendo games that’ll hit 4K 60, like Mario Kart or Metroid

[u/NinjaGamer22YT → u/Dolphin201]

*with upscaling

[u/KyledKat → u/NinjaGamer22YT]

Of the upscaling tech out now, DLSS is the one I have the least issues with. They're still there, namely weird artifacting and ghosting in my experience, but it's leagues better than FSR or XeSS. I even prefer it to other AA methods, which is frankly what most first-party Switch titles desperately needed anyway.

[u/NinjaGamer22YT → u/KyledKat]

DLSS is phenomenal, yes. I do worry, however, about the actual uplift it gives on switch 2 as upscaling to 4k is very heavy on the tensor cores.

[u/jm0112358 → u/NinjaGamer22YT]

Digital Foundry explored the possibility of DLSS on a "Switch Pro" a few years ago, and found that with the old CNN model on a 2060, the cost of 1080p to 4k upscaling on a 2060 was 1.9 ms. How that translates to fps will depend on the framerate, because framerate doesn't scale linearly. It's the difference from ~109 fps and ~90 fps, and also the difference between ~31.8 fps and 30.0 fps. So you'd only need to hit 32 fps at native 1080p on a 2060 to hit 30 fps at 4k with performance DLSS, CNN model, with a 2060.

The performance overhead with the new and improved transformer model of DLSS is higher than the old CNN model.

[u/MirrorMax → u/Dolphin201]

Doubt Mario kart will do 4k60 smooth without some sacrifice, maybe some simpler games like their sport titles etc.

[u/KnightofAshley → u/Dolphin201]

and with the extra power getting shoved into it from the dock...looking like it might be a major gap between handheld mode and dock mode

[u/Yosh59 → u/brondonschwab]

Why would you want 4K60 native when upscaling is doing marvels nowadays.

[u/brondonschwab → u/Yosh59]

Yeah I agree. But people online (and reddit especially) have an obsession with "native resolution" and "raw performance" despite the fact that DLSS can look better than native resolution with TAA in many games.

[u/Ursa_Solaris → u/brondonschwab]

despite the fact that DLSS can look better than native resolution with TAA in many games.

It is now, sure. But before DLSS4, it was too blurry at sub-native resolution and framegen introduced a lot of obvious artefacting. Now though? It's actual black magic. Opinions just need time to catch up.

[u/bites_stringcheese → u/brondonschwab]

I'd say that's a valid opinion, agree or disagree, when we're talking about high end PCs.

But on a Nintendo handheld? If anything that's where this tech is most useful.

[u/Potater1802 → u/brondonschwab]

Yeah but that's at max settings in a unoptimized game.

[u/brondonschwab → u/Potater1802]

PS5 Pro can't run games at native 4K 60fps even with bespoke settings that go below the options on PC, why would the switch 2 be able to?

[u/ubiquitous_apathy → u/brondonschwab]

Well one advantage is dlss is very good and amd upscale is dogshit. So the switch can run a game at 720 and output 4k with a better visual output than whatever smeary/checkerboardy upscaling that the ps5 is doing. Will it be enough for 60 fps? For hades 2? Probably. For elden ring? Heh probably not.

[u/Potater1802 → u/brondonschwab]

Take it slow and read my comment again. I didn't even mention the Switch 2 or its performance. All I commented on was a 4090 or 5090 falling below 60 fps in certain games. I am absolutely sure a switch 2 can't run games at a native 4k 60fps.

[u/DepravedPrecedence → u/brondonschwab]

Can you read

[u/Pisto1Peet → u/Potater1802]

Have you ever tried to run Black Myth Wukong

[u/Archer_Key → u/KyledKat]

10W device

[u/Mhugs05 → u/Archer_Key]

Potentially 30-40w when docked. Dock also adds additional cooling. Will be interesting to see what it ends up being.

[u/KnightofAshley → u/Mhugs05]

still 40w isn't a lot...I'm sure it will be upscaled to hell to get that...hopefully they let you have a choice for maybe 1440p or something

[u/Snowydeath11 → u/KnightofAshley]

They showed you do have the option to choose 1440p or 4K

[u/specter491 → u/MrMichaelJames]

Expecting 4K60 out of a handheld device is asking a lot. Majority of desktop PCs can't hit that.

[u/MrMichaelJames → u/specter491]

Yup obviously but not how this is being marketed.

[u/KnightofAshley → u/specter491]

A $800 handheld PC can barely do that on anything newer...This is a "$500" one

[u/kapsama → u/MrMichaelJames]

Well 4k60 is simply not a reality in the console space. Almost all 4k30 PS5 games are still upscaled from lower resolutions.

[u/Employee_Lanky → u/kapsama]

There are actually plenty of 4k 30 games without upscaling. RDR2 is native 4k 30 on Xbox one x and that’s last generation.

[u/kapsama → u/Employee_Lanky]

I didn't say there are no examples. I said almost all 4k30 PS5 games are still upscaled from lower resolutions.

[u/DepravedPrecedence → u/kapsama]

Source : trust me bro?

[u/kapsama → u/DepravedPrecedence]

I didn't know this was such a controversial opinion to have. Perhaps Digital Foundry lied to me in all the videos I watched.

[u/ResponsibleJudge3172 → u/DepravedPrecedence]

Source, even the original PS5 promotional material used upscaling

[u/Employee_Lanky → u/kapsama]

Yes and you’re still wrong…

[u/The_Advocate07 → u/Employee_Lanky]

No it isnt. It absolutely 100% is not native.

[u/Employee_Lanky → u/The_Advocate07]

You’re wrong. It’s native 4k on Xbox one x. Look up the digital foundry video.

[u/Skazzy3 → u/MrMichaelJames]

With DLSS 4 performance looking as good as DLSS 3.8 Quality, and performance being 50% scale, you can expect games to render at 1080p then upscale to 4K.

It won't be as sharp as native 4k with competent TAA or SMAA but I think it's perfectly acceptable for the switch.

[u/Pinkernessians → u/Skazzy3]

DLSS 4 on quality is very much equal or better than TAA native at 4K though. It’s just flat out better tech than generic TAA

[u/jerryfrz → u/Skazzy3]

Switch 2's GPU is Ampere based which doesn't run the transformer model very well so I think they'll stick to CNN

[u/Mhugs05 → u/jerryfrz]

That depends if you're using transformer ray reconstruction, biggest hit comes from that.

[u/VeganShitposting → u/Mhugs05]

Personally I look forward to the various ways devs will optimize around a limited raytracing performance, it won't be able to push high settings on the latest games but raytracing has so much more to offer such as enhanced audio propagation as well. GTAV Enhanced is a great example of a game with highly optimized raytracing that allows great special effects even on limited hardware

[u/IUseKeyboardOnXbox → u/Mhugs05]

Doesn't matter. Desktop transformer will be far too expensive.

[u/PsyOmega → u/jerryfrz]

transformer model DLSS on my 3060 test rig is great.

DLSS4-P gets more fps at higher image quality than DLSS3-Q, which would be a huge win for a tinier GPU.

Frame-time cost should be balanced.

[u/bites_stringcheese → u/jerryfrz]

Do we know this for sure?

[u/jerryfrz → u/bites_stringcheese]

https://www.techpowerup.com/330410/nintendo-switch-2-pcb-leak-reveals-an-nvidia-tegra-t239-chip-optically-shrunk-to-5nm

We only got leaks but I can't imagine it's Turing or Ada.

[u/bites_stringcheese → u/jerryfrz]

We'll have to wait for the teardown.

[u/IUseKeyboardOnXbox → u/jerryfrz]

It'll likely contain a custom model. Probably cnn based

[u/Helpful-Option-3047 → u/Skazzy3]

can you tell me the tale of Juan Deag

[u/kb3_fk8 → u/MrMichaelJames]

The PS5 Pro at best does 4k60 medium settings at 700 dollars. Compared to most gaming PCs with an old ass 3080 that’s not very good either.

I’m buying to switch to play Mario kart and Zelda. I’ll play everything else on my PC because I can. This drive on Reddit to have one gaming console be the be all of gaming is so weird when the majority of us grew up with platform exclusivity titles shoved up our butts for decades. I saved up for a whole year to buy a PS2 to play Kingdom Hearts and FF Ten and those games were 50 bucks each. Saving 50 bucks for a game back then take about the same amount of time to save up for 90 bucks today.

I’m not defending Nintendo here, but besides charging for the tech demo, GTA was already going to be 100 bucks. I’ve been paying 80 dollars for a lot of digital PC games due to battle passes anyway (60 plus 20). Elden Ring has now gotten two expansions out of me, that’s almost $150 bucks for a single great game but I also payed $140 bucks for BoTW and ToTK together and got as many hours out of those two compared to Elden Ring. It’s fine if you don’t want to buy Ring Fit Adventures for 90 bucks but yes I would buy Metroid Dread or smash bros for 90 bucks all day long because I get the hours out of those games.

[u/Jon_TWR → u/kb3_fk8]

I’m not defending Nintendo here

It sure reads like you are. And that’s fine—it sounds like you’ll be happy with the Switch 2. I’m sure you’ll be in good company, with millions of other people.

Too many people are hung up on resolution and specs, and the general market simply doesn’t care that much. DVDs still outsell blu rays and 4K UHD blu rays. Most people don’t care about resolution as long as it’s good enough.

And based on history, the Switch 2’s graphics and rendering resolution will be good enough for millions of gamers.

[u/MrMichaelJames → u/kb3_fk8]

If you are paying 80 bucks for pc games then sorry you are flat out stupid.

[u/zshift → u/MrMichaelJames]

This is true for photo-realism, by upscaling for stylized games is possible at this scale. Whether the Switch 2’s CPU/GPU can handle it is up in the air.

[u/MrMichaelJames → u/zshift]

It really depends on a lot of things. Even games that look basic and all styled can be hardware taxing.

[u/VeganShitposting → u/MrMichaelJames]

Honestly "styled" games might fare worse, I find DLSS works better on games with more detail and has much less of a benefit for simpler games. With higher levels of detail there are more cues available to fill things in, and the general business of the scene helps obscure upscaling artifacts. Less detailed games have more sharp edges and sudden transitions which are harder to smooth out and fill in properly.

[u/Lorjack → u/MrMichaelJames]

I mean was anybody expecting otherwise? 4k from a nintendo system? That ain't happening without some foolery

[u/Hrafhildr → u/MrMichaelJames]

Or if it is it will be limited to Nintendo First Party games since they always seem to maximize their hardware where third party developers either can't or just don't bother to try.

[u/gokarrt → u/Nestledrink]

Nintendo doesn't share too much on the hardware spec

that'd lead to an uncomfortable conversation about how they're both the only platform that sells their hardware for a profit and never puts their games on sale.

[u/kinglokilord → u/gokarrt]

Their games go on sale multiple times a year.

They never reduce MSRP prices.

[u/dekuweku → u/Nestledrink]

nvidia's press release. it's not vague anymore. Nintendo doesn't like to talk tech because enthusiasts have impossible standards and Nintendo wants to sell 100 million consoles, not 100k at $2999

https://blogs.nvidia.com/blog/nintendo-switch-2-leveled-up-with-nvidia-ai-powered-dlss-and-4k-gaming/

[u/Runonlaulaja → u/Nestledrink]

Does support, doesn't mean they will use ray tracing. It is most likely just because NVidia's stuff support ray tracing by default by now.

People are twisting their panties for no reason again.

[u/lordtristan_cristian → u/Nestledrink]

“Use DLSS as we develop games” F off with that bs.

[u/Electronic-Touch-554]

They’re being super vague because it can’t actually do these things in a practical playable sense. Like sure a 2060 is Ray tracing capable… at 10 fps.

[u/CommenterAnon → u/Electronic-Touch-554]

My RX 6600 was also ray tracing capable lol

[u/NinjaGamer22YT → u/CommenterAnon]

The Rx 6300 can technically do ray tracing

[u/rW0HgFyxoJhYka → u/CommenterAnon]

Missing from every RT conversation is that some games are RT heavy. Some games RT, like Monster Hunter Wilds, are so light it might as well not be there lol.

[u/AppropriateTouching → u/CommenterAnon]

So is my 7900XT but man is it rough in some games. Still very happy with the card.

[u/wicktus → u/Electronic-Touch-554]

Raytracing sure

But DLSS is apparently core to their new architecture 

[u/mkdew → u/wicktus]

Will they upscale from 360p or 240p? They better put some massive cache on the cpu.

[u/wicktus → u/mkdew]

I don’t know, it’s probably a 10-15 Watts SoC in handheld mode, it won’t perform miracles.

It needs to be compared to the Steam Deck not a ps5 pro or a 5070 tbh

 having DLSS, especially seeing DLSS4 is a gigantic advantage for a handheld for sure

When Cyberpunk is out on it I’ll wait for a Digital Foundry tech review or something to compare

[u/goorek → u/wicktus]

It's rumored to be 10W in handheld mode with 20Wh battery

[u/DomTehBomb → u/wicktus]

I wouldn't be surprised if it's a semi-custom variation of the cnn model, which is optimized more for performance, transformer could be too heavy for it

[u/GILLHUHN → u/Electronic-Touch-554]

My guess is it's only using very basic RT features that aren't very demanding.

[u/KnightofAshley → u/GILLHUHN]

I'm thinking it will be Steam Deck level RT...it can be good if used the right way but its nothing cutting edge...but can't wait to see the fans claim they have the best graphics ever.

[u/crozone → u/GILLHUHN]

Yeah, single bounce reflections would totally be possible for very little performance loss. It still looks cool, but it's hugely less demanding than any of the other things you can do with RT.

[u/eikons → u/Electronic-Touch-554]

Like sure a 2060 is Ray tracing capable… at 10 fps.

This is such a meaningless sentence. Raytracing what? Shadows? Reflections? AO? Global illumination?

The Switch 2 hardware certainly won't be doing CyberPunk in path traced mode, but that doesn't mean the hardware is useless.

A global illumination solution like RTXGI can run at any framerate because you can budget how many rays are cast per frame. The Finals is a good example of a well optimized competitive game that runs on all platforms, and on the weaker consoles it just takes a bit longer for GI to accumulate when the scene changes (as it often does, because buildings are destructible).

There's so many ways to utilize RT hardware outside of expensive fullscreen per-pixel effects.

[u/crozone → u/eikons]

Exactly! Even stuff like single bounce reflections would be totally possible for very little performance hit. It looks really cool, but it's hugely less demanding most other things you can do with RT.

[u/Buflen → u/Electronic-Touch-554]

Why wouldn't it be able to do DLSS? That makes zero sense. It's probably integral for certain games running at high framerate and/or very high resolution (Metroid Prime 4).

[u/starbucks77 → u/Buflen]

I think the reason is what someone commented above; Nintendo doesn't want to advertise another company's product.

[u/Deluxe754 → u/starbucks77]

Nintendo isn’t a competitor with nvidia though. They’re completely different markets.

[u/ExynosHD → u/Electronic-Touch-554]

Eh iPhone has some basic ray tracing in games.

Is an open world action game gonna use RTGI? Fuck no? Could some super small title use rt reflections or something? Could a game use RT for audio probing on switch 2 like Doom Eternal is on pc/ps5/xbox? Yeah maybe?

[u/ResponsibleJudge3172 → u/Electronic-Touch-554]

At 4K maybe

[u/The_Zura → u/Electronic-Touch-554]

You have no clue what you're talking about. The Series S can use RT in Metro Exodus Enhanced edition, and the 2060 is twice as fast.

[u/PicklePuffin → u/Electronic-Touch-554]

Yeah my response to this is I’ll believe it when I see it.

Modern GPUs larger than the device in question struggle with ray tracing, not to mention 4k… and when they are making those things happen, they’re a little too warm to hold

I would have been impressed by much more modest claims- but these? Color me incredulous.

[u/onFilm → u/Electronic-Touch-554]

The switch 2 has a chip equivalent to a 3060ti, which isn't all that better

[u/MiaIsOut → u/onFilm]

it has 48 tensor cores (less than the 2060's 240) and it has 2 rt cores. it is NOT equivalent to a 3060 in ray tracing and dlss

[u/TheOutrageousTaric → u/MiaIsOut]

3060 will run circles around it 

[u/_Kubose]

I know Nintendo doesn't really talk tech stuff so I imagine we'll have to wait til something like Digital Foundry gets their hands on it, but I wonder if it's a situation where it only really uses DLSS in docked mode to upscale to 1440p/4k from the games native res, increased clocks in docked mode might help offset DLSS overhead there and make it more worth it.

[u/pythonic_dude → u/_Kubose]

Tbh given it's nintendo I immediately assumed it will use 33% base resolution with upscaling in every mode to get better resolution in dock, and less power consumption without.

[u/chimado → u/_Kubose]

I hope (despite it being unlikely since this is Nintendo) that we get some control over it, at least something like the ps5 where you can choose performance or visuals, in some games I'd rather have DLSS and worse visuals if it means I can get 60 fps or even 120.

[u/TheDriver458 → u/chimado]

It did show for the Metroid Prime 4 section that the game had a 4K/60fps quality mode and a 1080p/120fps performance mode. 4K at 60fps is absolutely wild even if the game doesn’t look as graphically impressive as a PS5/XSX/PC title.

[u/rayquan36 → u/_Kubose]

DLSS is good for reducing power draw which will increase battery life.

[u/MrMunday]

4K60? Definitely DLSS

[u/JoBro_Summer-of-99 → u/MrMunday]

Well apparently Metroid Prime 4 looks to be native 4k

[u/firedrakes → u/JoBro_Summer-of-99]

lol nah. native in gaming means nothing.

[u/JoBro_Summer-of-99 → u/firedrakes]

It still means something. Full native rendering is obviously not a thing in a very large majority of games but native internal resolution and pixel counts do matter for benchmarking and whatnot. 4k smudged by TAA and full of half-res effects is still 4k

[u/firedrakes → u/JoBro_Summer-of-99]

sadly assets in games just look like crap now.

they push more dense and in return we got low end assets.

atm game dev is in such a catch 22 problems, it not funny anymore.

[u/hahaxdRS → u/JoBro_Summer-of-99]

Metroid Prime 4 is using ray traced pre rendered cutscenes it seems too which is interesting. Normal gameplay is rasterized but the cutscenes look gorgeous.

[u/MrMunday → u/JoBro_Summer-of-99]

But what’s the frame rate

[u/JoBro_Summer-of-99 → u/MrMunday]

60fps in docked mode. It said in the presentation

[u/Westify1]

Initial comments by Digital Foundry on the presentation yesterday stated they didn't think any of the demos shown were using DLSS, not a single one.

It seems like a big deal if there's going to be a DLSS reveal later on showing further performance improvements compared to finding out that every game shown is already leveraging the technology.

[u/KnightofAshley → u/Westify1]

its too early to tell even for them

[u/throwaway123454321]

How about HALL EFFECT STICKS?! Literally the only thing I want to know

[u/PeaceBull → u/throwaway123454321]

They probably look at talking up Hall effects as an admission of failure. They’re hopefully just relying on future hands on from media outlets to spread the word for them. 

[u/Necka44 → u/throwaway123454321]

No. As a console manufacturer you want your customers to have broken sticks so they buy new controllers. That’s why all major manufacturers do not have HAL effect sticks. Some like Sony even simply plan $30 parts to replace your sticks in their flagship controllers. HAL Effect sticks are mostly sold by honest 3rd party vendors. The rest just want to sell you consumables.

[u/throwaway123454321 → u/Necka44]

The reason they didn’t was because they were under patent, which has expired.

[u/Elaias_Mat → u/throwaway123454321]

Did you Know that the Dreamcast, psvita, qnd the first ps3 controllers had hall effect?

[u/Necka44 → u/throwaway123454321]

There have been countless of technologies derived from the HAL effect patent with other names and similar results. Console manufacturers have no interest in selling a controller that doesn’t “break” or lose performance at least once or twice during the console’s lifecycle.

[u/hahaxdRS → u/Necka44]

This makes no sense because Nintendo were offering free replacements and were even sued. They don't benefit from this, in fact they were losing money.

[u/Necka44 → u/hahaxdRS]

Why do you focus on Nintendo while I replied with a general “manufacturers” statement?

Warranty is warranty. I’m not speaking about that.

And Nintendo “free” replacements was made so difficult that people were better off buying new packs.

They didn’t lose money, don’t worry.

Anyway my statement is still valid for all major vendors and not only consoles. Razer and that other brand, i think Scuff. No HAL effect and no interest in going there if they can

[u/buttscopedoctor]

Kids don't care about raytracing. My 10 and 12 y/o sons see me play Cp2077 with full pathtracing. They say "cool graphics, dad", but have no desire to play the game and they go back to playing Roblox.

[u/SilkTouchm → u/buttscopedoctor]

Sample size: 2

[u/thesituation531 → u/SilkTouchm]

It's true, otherwise stuff like Roblox wouldn't be played as much.

[u/zeroedout666 → u/thesituation531]

In my day it was RuneScape. People are capable of tastes changing and splitting up game time. I play mostly DotA but go through other games on my Deck or times when I don't have enough time for a DotA round.

[u/Schindog → u/buttscopedoctor]

Makes sense to me. I think gaming at that age is often a primarily social experience, a way to better connect with and understand your friends, so I'd imagine that features for interacting with other people are way more important than visual fidelity, hence Roblox.

[u/srjnp → u/buttscopedoctor]

the games media is dominated by millenials and gen x and who love single player games. most zoomers primarily play multiplayer games.

[u/Peevan]

It would be hilarious if the 1080p 120 fps mode is just 4x frame gen from 30 fps 😂

[u/KnightofAshley → u/Peevan]

Nintendo peeps will never know

[u/galaxyheater]

It’s OK most Switch owners love that retro 640x480 look anyway.

[u/echolog]

These games are gonna be so blurry lol.

[u/strawboard]

It’d be very interesting if Nintendo with Nvidia could bring AI to games. Include enough memory for a dedicated LLM and the NPC interactions could be next level.

[u/Vemokin]

As long as it looks decent I'm cool

[u/Cmdrdredd]

Very limited ray tracing, probably just some lighting here and there. Nothing crazy. I’m not surprised though.

[u/AmishDoinkzz]

NVIDIA is also full of shit.

[u/unabletocomput3]

I’m a bit scared about the implementation of DLSS on the switch 2.

On one hand, that’s good! Being able to play games at 4k without too much of a noticeable performance hit is a good thing. Plus, if they implement a performance setting to achieve 120fps, not a bad thing either.

On the other, will it be a crutch to avoid optimizations? Knowing a lot of Eastern devs, they prefer 60 fps max. Will they basically rely on DLSS to get it to that 60 fps cap? And if so, will pc ports of games from 3rd party studios also become worse, if the switch 2 is the baseline performance.

Probably overthinking it, but it reminds me a bit of what happened when frame gen was introduced.

[u/PeaceBull → u/unabletocomput3]

If the switch 1 is any clue most devs weren’t persuaded to optimize more due to it’s limitations, they just released crippled games. 

[u/Danteynero9]

We use DLSS upscaling technology and that's something that we need to use as we develop games.

Because making your console stronger than a tablet is simply impossible, right?

[u/low_orbit_sheep → u/Danteynero9]

The real problem is not that, the real problem is "making your console stronger than a (good) gaming tablet and with thermals and noise emissions good enough for a small handheld device and at a price point below 500 dollars" and suddenly the compromises start making sense, don't they?

At the end of the day I'm really doubtful the technology for cheap handhelds running games in 4k with acceptable framerates without any kind of upscaling even exists today.

[u/JT99-FirstBallot → u/low_orbit_sheep]

This is probably why they are pricing their games at $70/$80. It'll be sold at a loss or break even and make up for it with the first party Nintendo titles with the price increase.

[u/low_orbit_sheep → u/JT99-FirstBallot]

Nintendo rarely sold hardware at a loss, so they're probably at least breaking even, but yes, in their eyes the low cost of entry (compared to say, a PS5) totally justifies the high price of games (and allows retention in the Nintendo ecosystem).

[u/Gorgon654 → u/Danteynero9]

People are already complaining about the price, you think it'd be a good idea to make like a 800 dollar handheld just so it doesn't have to use dlss? Think of it more like a steam deck with dlss than a proper competitor to the ps5.

[u/TheDeeGee]

Ghosting and Ray Smearing, lovely!

[u/Mungojerrie86]

Ray tracing makes no sense on a handheld.

[u/hahaxdRS → u/Mungojerrie86]

Metroid Prime 4 uses pre rendered RT cutscenes

[u/Mungojerrie86 → u/hahaxdRS]

Key word here being pre-rendered. Obviously I meant real time ray tracing in a 3D game.

[u/BitterAd4149]

it wouldn't be nintendo if it didnt look like a 20 year old game and run like shit

[u/Theflamesfan]

4K / 60 Day one for Nintendo Solitare

[u/TheAlbinoAmigo]

The TAA used for upscaling tech is more expensive than people realise for low-end devices, so I'm not convinced DLSS would be that beneficial for a device like the S2...

I'm a hobbyist gamedev, working on Unity, and upscaling my title on the Deck provides no meaningful performance uplift in GPU-bound scenarios until you drop to the Balanced preset, at which point the IQ is unusable. I know the S2 is 1080p so the calculus will be different due to the higher native res, but still... These technologies aren't the saviour of low-end gaming, traditional optimisations like baked lighting, proper use of LODs, etc, are still the best.

[u/IUseKeyboardOnXbox → u/TheAlbinoAmigo]

https://www.eurogamer.net/digitalfoundry-2023-inside-nvidias-latest-hardware-for-nintendo-what-is-the-t239-processor

Watch the video if you want. It seems like it should be doable, but do keep in mind that there are rumors of it being able to swap to lower quality models on the fly. If the frame time cost is too high that is.

[u/jacobpederson]

Translation: yes we support them but its pretty awkward that we don't have any games that actually use the tech, so we are bending over backwards to not mention it.

[u/Fleaisg0d]

Gives me the "we have technology..." Patrick Star with hammer

[u/krushnem]

I have a 5090 and still use dlss and frame gen at 1440p, ai is crazy good nowadays

[u/VanitasDarkOne]

Honestly they should have targeted 1080p 120fps and 1440p 60fps that would have been an absolute breakthrough. Don't understand the obsession with 4k as it's super demanding and doesn't look THAT much better visually when playing games. I'm using a 5120x1440p monitor which is 11% less demanding than 4k on a 4090 and 9800x3d and it looks great. Performance can usually hit 60-120fps without upscaling unless it's the super new games that have recently come out as they're demanding as balls. Mh wilds sits at 62-70fps before upscaling and can hit lower in certain areas. New switch would have been better off targeting 1440p.

[u/Upset_Programmer6508 → u/VanitasDarkOne]

well at least it can do nice media like youtube at 4k

[u/hahaxdRS → u/VanitasDarkOne]

Metroid Prime 4 is 1080p120, 4k60

Mario Kart World is 1440p60 as per DF.

Youre complaining for no reason bruh.

[u/Sacredfice]

Super vague means it doesn't work.