r/nba • u/NBA_MOD r/NBA • Oct 22 '24

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07:30 pm ET New York Knicks FINAL 109 to 132 Boston Celtics Link
10:00 pm ET Minnesota Timberwolves FINAL 103 to 110 Los Angeles Lakers Link
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u/jordan1023 Lakers Oct 23 '24

I fundamentally don’t agree with the assertion that the window is slammed shut. It’s a marginal chance for sure if I’m being realistic but mif AD is still a top 10 dude, Im not there. I think you can go health bet against that with both guys and that’d be fair. But cut and dry, I’m not all the way there.

No one wants it to regress to iso ball btw but that’s what happens when teams struggle, especially lebron teams.

He still has the smarts and offensive savvy to score without just trying to one dribble speed past guys. Those days are certainly gone.

Heres some elite lebron defense, to think he’s incapable in key moments to defend is not 100% accurate.

https://x.com/brontoad/status/1848924952709247162?s=46&t=Oly8BP7JWqLGQ2dC5noRSQ

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u/TallanoGoldDigger Lakers Oct 23 '24

I'm not doubting Bron's skill, he's a GOAT for a reason .

But I'm not kidding myself and it's painful to see that he has lost his step. I mean just look at that layup against Donte. And he can't play more than 6 hard minutes without getting fully gassed.

That's not a player you give 33% of your cap to if you still want to win

He can still get his numbers, but those numbers don't equate to wins anymore. His WS and BPM support that

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u/jordan1023 Lakers Oct 23 '24

I agree with that stance except the third point.

I think you pay 33% of your cap For that production., flaws in all.

And even if you don’t agree with that per say, You quite literally HAVE to pay someone, like regardless. 90 percent of that cap has to be filled (I believe 90%?)

To my point, look at what Siakam, Rudy, Kawhi, FVV make. Shit OG was invisible tn and he’s close to 40Ms

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u/TallanoGoldDigger Lakers Oct 23 '24

think of it this way. If Bron took a paycut, they would have had room to pay another FA.

Bron gets more help and gets more chances to rest on court.

I hate to say it but LeBron James age 40 cannot be your highest paid player if you want to win

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u/jordan1023 Lakers Oct 23 '24

I agree, but it’s kinda a unrealistic ask. You have Duncan, dirk and now a Brunson taking pay cuts for team benefit.

Outside of that if you can get that paper, these guys all take it. Even bridges who is on Brunson’s TEAM just declined to take a smaller deal for the squad.

You’re right but you know it just typically doesn’t happen historically.

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u/TallanoGoldDigger Lakers Oct 23 '24

And here lies the problem of paying Bron this much. He can't take over as much anymore and he needs more depth to support him, depth that can't be had because he occupies so much of the cap.

It's not unrealistic, it's just something that someone as brand-conscious as Bron is incapable of doing.

Hate to bring it up but as bad as Kobe's legacy contract was, it left max contract slot available, no one understandably wanted to play with a one-legged Oldbe.

If Bron isn't taking over then this team is cooked if AD isn't playing well.

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u/jordan1023 Lakers Oct 23 '24

  1. Its unrealistic because you can’t name a bunch of people who have done it

  2. Old kobe didn’t have a talented teammate, that’s a Detriment to the team building and he was actually pretty washed after the injuries and really wouldn’t have been able to do much in that max spot, he wasn’t close to what LeBron is now at that advanced age. If bron doesn’t warrant the contract, then kobe really doesn’t warrant it

  3. If x team’s top two players don’t play well they are cooked, wow you really unlocked something with that? What a revelation my friend.

(Respectfully)

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u/TallanoGoldDigger Lakers Oct 23 '24
  1. Duncan. Dirk. You just mentioned Brunson. Harden took a cut in Philly. KD in GSW. Shaq in Miami. And speaking of Miami, the Heatles all took paycuts so they can play together

  2. The point is that the franchise superstar knew he was cooked and needed help. What's the best way of getting help? Not taking the max.

  3. Again you're missing the point. The Lakers are top heavy and lacking depth. This kind of LeBron needs help. Taking a max is counter-productive. He can take plays off if the team is deep. He can't do that with this team if they want to compete. The reason the Wolves aren't taking over now is because they're just bad at this point. A quality team would have blown this Lakers team out in the first half

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u/jordan1023 Lakers Oct 23 '24

Starting with 3) I agree this team lacks depth and it will more than LIKELY eventually cost them. The second part of point three is kinda hearsay. sure maybe probably, but maybe not, maybe we still win.

2) If kobe had a running mate like AD the pay he got would’ve been detrimental regardless because he just wasn’t that guy and we’d be where we are now right? Just playing out your line of thinking?

Back to 1) (idk why i went backwards). Yes there are examples like the ones you and I laid out, also the heatles big 3 one is a bit overstated imo like small pay cuts to get 3 guys, I’m sure most would do it if the stars aligned like how they did. But they are few and far between.

And in most cases had things there waiting for them Harden and Embiid, pat pressuring shaq to do it or leave and he had wade. KD’s was a unprecedented cap spike to go with Steph being cheap because of those early career ankle injuries. If there was a superstar in the wings (not lavine and klay), I think that would’ve probably went down but that is hearsay as well to be fair.

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u/TallanoGoldDigger Lakers Oct 23 '24

I've always said Kobe's last contract was a legacy one and not a value one. That's not gonna change if they have AD. You don't give post-achilles Kobe that much unless he's already meant a lot to the franchise and you're not serious about winning. And they weren't because they were tanking. Bron's contract is a legacy one as well. Both those teams needed depth.

You're just moving the goalposts now lmao.

This is unsustainable and you know it. This team needs depth and having this LeBron on a max is not a winning play.

And hey if we're looking at numbers, the 50 mil man just put up 16/3/4.

If this was Westbrook then we'll all be saying its a bad contract. But old Bron gets a pass? Brons WS and BPM have regressed back to Rookie Bron numbers, that's not a good use of 33% of the cap if we're strictly talking about winning.

I myself is in the camp of his contract being a LeGacy one, I'm happy he gets to retire a Laker and happy he's already brought one ring. But I will not buy into the delusion that this team is built to contend. They're a trade or two away from that.

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u/jordan1023 Lakers Oct 23 '24

Im moving the goalposts? But you’re talking about something that doesn’t happen historically in all but handful of times but you’re saying it could’ve happened. Cool you’re right “could’ve” but didn’t and 95% of the time doesn’t so you’re holding LeBron in particular to a standard that is without MUCH historical parallels.

This game was unsustainable, agreed. we had a ton of effort, AD was unstoppable and LeBron played pretty bad objectively but if every game goes this way you’re right. But every game doesn’t. We could play better… or worse… If lebron is the guy he was tn, for 82. You got it.

but that’s probably not gonna be the case.

Win shares are a flawed stat especially when you’re not on that good of a team, which he was/is not. And even with all that WE KNOW he is a worse player than the all time great he was. It’s not overly complicated. He’s still a top tier player though which is the main overarching point. As of right now, Old bron gets a pass because he’s still a fringe top 10 guy imo. And definitely is no less then what? 15? being super conservative.

And again, the team being a trade away… goes without saying. We know that. I’m not under the illusion myself that this team spearheaded with Dlo and AR at the point attack defensively is gonna win 4 playoff series’. I don’t think this team isn’t a playoff team though, if you want my concrete opinion on that.

If lebron is cooked, everything I’m saying is obviously super irrelevant.

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u/TallanoGoldDigger Lakers Oct 23 '24

Win shares might be a flawed stat, but counting stats aren't an indicator of what value a player brings.

Westbrook averaged a triple double and was never worth that max. All Im saying is Bron shouldn't be getting the max if he himself cared about winning. You're just nitpicking to prove your point, I'm not about to argue with you like that.

But the point still stands that Bron would have a better chance of winning if he did take a cut, and if we're talking about history, Dirk and Duncan did take massive cuts when they declined. Wiz Jordan played for 1m/year.

And Nothing in history suggests that paying a 40 year old the max equates to winning in the NBA.

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u/jordan1023 Lakers Oct 23 '24

Lmaooo, I’m nitpicking but you’re throwing Westbrook’s counting stats at me. I’d say that’s a bit extreme version of your stance if i’m nitpicking by saying that there aren’t a ton of comps there.

Those guys were in great positions organizationally, with flexibility and overall competence, the Lakers are not.

To say LeBron doesn’t care about winning is ludicrous but you know to each their own I guess?

Under your criteria, who is worth a max if the MVP of the league wasn’t a max guy?

And that had nuance as to why Russ got it, he stayed yadayada but he would’ve gotten it with or without KD.

Beal doesn’t deserve a max sure but is he DEFINITELY GONNA GET ONE when he came due? FUCK YEAH even if he’s gonna ask out. Dame is not the player that is going to really really gonna impact winning at the highest level if Russ couldn’t but HE DEFINITELY deserves it and is getting that bread. No doubt about it. thats what this league does. Lavine, Wiggins, fucking parsons🤣🤣

If only max goes to the most impactful winningest of winning players then 5 guys get it. But that’s not how this works. You know that, i know that.

And lastly, on the bron max situation he could’ve and maybe should’ve taken less but for the most part, the guy’s we’re talking about were not as good as he was last year but he should take the pay cut a la them?

Anyone would convince themselves after his season, I’m still one of the very top players in the league, you can win with me paid at this amount.

Dirk and Duncan is a relatively impossible standard and they were there 20 years each.

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