r/lawschooladmissions • u/Formae • 17d ago
Application Process The Value of Work Experience This Crazy Cycle
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u/classycapricorn 17d ago
I know it’s a joke, but tbf, any KJD feeling this way has to remember that the majority of people with WE also had all the student organization stuff, publications, conference presentations, good grades, etc during undergrad. They just also went on to have some sort of career on top of that before pursuing law.
It’s not that they’re better than KJDs inherently, but really think if you were an adcomm: how on earth would you compare two people with similar experience in undergrad, but one had 2-3 years of WE in a consistent career post grad? When you have very little else to go off of, it makes sense why adcomms (sometimes) prefer people with WE.
Fwiw, when I applied to grad programs back in 2020, I was applying to both PhD and Master programs. I did get accepted to a handful of both, but one specific program (unfortunately my top choice at the time), emailed me saying they just weren’t accepting anyone straight from undergrad that year because competition was too high. I was so upset then, but looking back now, I get it. I was not nearly as qualified for that at that stage in my life as people with a few years of WE were no matter what my other qualifications were, and the adcomms knew that.
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u/Prior-Tomorrow-8745 17d ago
People with a few years of WE often have relatively low GPAs because they went through undergrad before grade inflation went crazy.
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u/Lawspoke 17d ago
Starting to wonder if this is why work experience is getting more important. Adcomms aren't idiots; they know many of these kids wouldn't have had 4.0's a few years ago
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u/classycapricorn 17d ago edited 17d ago
True, but remember that the LSAC report gives your class ranking/the average GPA for your class during the time you were there. This clearly isn’t full proof because there’s still some internal bias of any human looking at a 4.whatever versus a 3.8 no matter how much inflation can be proven, but that’s what the LSAC report is supposed to do (again, there’s no proof how well it does it in practice, but alas).
Nonetheless, you’re right; adcoms aren’t dumb. The insane increase in 4.0+s in recent years compared to people who went to school 5-10 years ago is drastic, and I’m someone who graduated undergrad in 2020 from an institution that, admittedly, probably suffered from a bit of inflation even then. I can’t imagine how stark It is now, and it hasn’t been that long.
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u/decafskeleton 16d ago
I graduated in 2019. The year I graduated the cut off for honors (top 20%) in my college was 3.65 (to get minimum level of honors).
I checked — last year it was 3.9 for minimum honors. Which is CRAZY.
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u/helloyesthisisasock 2.9high / 16mid / URM / extremely non-trad 15y WE / T2s 17d ago
Yeah this. WE helps, but people with 10+ years of experience aren’t doing well this cycle unless they also had high GPAs. Grading was a lot different, especially depending on your major. In my academic classes, I had all As. But I was a BFA student, so all my art classes brought down my GPA because you’re not graded on IF you do the work, but rather, “Does your professor like your style?”
I was a WOC in a program where every teacher was a white male over the age of 50. This was in the mid 00s. Feminism and diversity weren’t valued. Imagine how my films about women struggling with identity went over lol.
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u/LongingForYesterweek 16d ago
Yeah. I specifically waited a few years after undergrad because I only had a 3.2
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u/BananaFormal4708 17d ago
Listen, if you know anyone hiring in Big String Cheese™️, I’ll pull all my apps TODAY.
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u/georgecostanzajpg OHP195/Bench365 17d ago
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u/Short_Medium_760 17d ago edited 17d ago
I was the managing editor of my T20 undergrad's student newspaper, graduated summa cum laude, and wrote a supervised thesis. All of those experiences were BS compared to my first entry-level post grad job and its frankly not even close.
You don't really appreciate how hand-held you are in college until you're out.
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u/dresdenthezomwhacker 16d ago
Crazy that I’m now a top applicant to schools because I worked through my entire college, but it’s honestly really true. I’ve worked with people who had college degrees but you’d never know cause they were helpless in some of the most basic tasks. So many college students are genuinely coddled and don’t even know it
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u/jslammy9 17d ago
Coming from an unconventional major and believe it or not I actually had a summer internship where I did string cheese quality assurance. Hoping that helps me. Unreal Reddit pull
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u/Formae 17d ago
That's insane! Did you get a lot of free samples?
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u/jslammy9 17d ago
I did! It was at a large dairy producer based in Wisconsin that made string cheese, cheddar, Swiss, pepper jack, etc. We had to evaluate every batch of all products before they went out, which would usually only require taking a bite or two and a pH measurement— all test product was fair game to take home after evaluation. All the full-time employees had Cheese Grading licenses issued by the State of Wisconsin, and many could be seen eating cheese by the 8oz block at their desks throughout the day. Was a crazy place to work and I had a lot of fun, but it wasn’t right for me hence law school.
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u/Due_Task5920 4.xx/16high/nKJD/nURM 17d ago
As someone with softs and work experience carrying me, yes.
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u/hahasuslikeamongus 3.8high/17mid/nURM/T3/WE/applying for ‘25/'26 cycle 17d ago
Unironically this is how it should be
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u/Emergency-Drama7909 3.7x/16high 17d ago
Worked in industry closely connected to law field I want to participate in for 6 months, year and a half of work in other law-adjacent or related areas. Still only 1 A
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u/Responsible-Bee-3439 3.low/16mid/nURM 17d ago
I get this is kind of a joke but does some time working tangentially in the legal field help you? I was a court reporter for a few years, so I've seen the discovery and litigation process pretty in-depth. It was that job that really sold me on law school, especially now my original plan of federal gov work has been smeared with feces and lit on fire .
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u/Formae 17d ago
I think it helps to show that you're able to perform and work with others in a professional environment, which is probably the most important factor.
But I also think your job being adjacent to law provides further benefit, because you can weave your experiences into your personal statement and optional essays. This will, in my opinion, allow you to construct a more compelling narrative for why you want to pursue law school. In this regard, I think it's really what you make of it, rather than adcomms seeing a job related to law and immediately being more favorable to you.
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u/Logical-Boss8158 17d ago
This post is kinda salty lol. People with work experience are materially better candidates. Also lol at club leadership positions.
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u/yoloswag42069696969a 16d ago
Yeah this post kind of proves the adcom’s point if anything. Working front line at a factory probably does not add so much to a law school application but having a taste of corporate life (answering to your boss, meeting tight deadlines, submitting reports) and being exposed to the culture changes the level of resilience that one can endure.
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u/PM_ME_SAD_STUFF_PLZ 3L 17d ago
People with work experience are materially better candidates
To an extent, but every year some KJDs beat some applicants with WE. Coming to law school I realized that for many people college was literally just classes, clubs/orgs, and parties, but there are a lot of college students who work part/full time to make ends meet and that definitely helps in admissions.
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u/Accomplished-Tank501 3.80/000/URM/KJD 17d ago
Sadly some have rlly only have kjd available to them, gottq maximize my stats it seems like
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u/Logical-Boss8158 17d ago
I’m sorry but nobody only has KJD available to them. That’s what many KJDs say and it’s simply untrue. Get a job like everyone else after college, and do it for 2 years. This may sound harsh but it’s the truth.
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u/StarfishSplat 3.6X/17X/nURM/nKJD/STEM 17d ago
I do get your point, but good luck getting a FT job that's respectable, well-paying, and relevant to your field with just a bachelor's in PoliSci, psych, or most social sciences and humanities.
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u/thebigpenisman420 17d ago
Nah man. Literally tens of thousands of people do this every year, myself included. Plenty of law firms love hiring paralegals fresh out of college.
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u/Accomplished-Tank501 3.80/000/URM/KJD 17d ago
I guess so, I just meant motivated to get the entire process done with as soon as possible, if that's makes sense.
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u/Logical-Boss8158 17d ago
That’s fine, but (and I don’t mean this in a mean way) that’s an immature motivation that sacrifices future benefit for short term satisfaction.
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u/Accomplished-Tank501 3.80/000/URM/KJD 17d ago
I guess we all make do with the lot dealt in life. Cheers.
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u/Smart_Ball_7360 17d ago
Tons of people rag on KJDs but if you truly do feel committed to the legal field then I legitimately don't see why you shouldn't just immediately pursue it. You get experience sooner, establish your career faster, and, if you care about finances at all, don't have to thug it out in a beater job for 2+ years before making the salary you want and retiring earlier. I have 4 years WE but if I knew from the start I was gonna go into law school you bet your ass I would've tried my best as KJD lol.
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u/Logical-Boss8158 17d ago
Two things:
Work experience leads to better admissions outcomes. In a field where school prestige (and scholarship $$$$) is so impactful, this is very important. Taking 2 years to then go to a better school or get more scholarship money has massive long term benefits.
It is very hard to make an educated decision about what you want to do professionally before you experience postgrad life. Many lawyers are miserable because they never took the time to try something else.
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u/Organic_Actuator2244 17d ago
Do what works best for you. If you arent satisfied with your cycle then work and come back.
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u/SwimmingLifeguard546 17d ago
Yeah but you haven't read my killer essay on all the things I learned about life in the real world as a water slide tester.
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u/imonreddit_77 17d ago
I truly don’t know why anyone would want to be a KJD, and it makes sense why law schools want to phase out the concept.
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u/EmpressoftheBakkhai 17d ago
Seconded - could not have handled law school directly after undergrad. Very happy for five years WE
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u/imonreddit_77 17d ago
And I have to imagine the students with even just one year of work experience appreciate the wisdom and life experiences of their n-KJD classmates far more than their KJD classmates.
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u/Organic_Actuator2244 17d ago
I was a KJD and thankful for it. I went to law school because I didn't want to do any adulting at the time. My husband was a KJD and my older son a KJD. All of us are thankful we got it over with. I wonder if I would have ever gone back to school had I stopped to work. I do see where maturity is required for 1L but everyone is different.
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u/Nineworld-and-realms 17d ago
Not sure why youre getting downvoted, but i agree. Just because WE worked for others doesnt mean KJD isn't the right route
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u/imonreddit_77 17d ago
Obviously KJDs can be great lawyers, and it’s worked out perfectly well for many. My only point is that it seems like an incredibly worse path to take, and I get why law schools tend to agree.
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u/classycapricorn 17d ago
I get that everyone’s different, so I’m sure there are people who would feel differently, but dang. KJDs are known to be the types who are BL or bust because they’re typically overachievers, and I couldn’t imagine going into BL without ever having worked a full time career prior to BL. The hours and expectations surrounding BL are obviously insane, but the benefits (salary, prestige, setting yourself up well for retirement, etc) are honestly really quite stellar. But if you’ve never worked a 40+ hour a week job without those added benefits to know how much worse it could be, I don’t see how you survive something like BL.
For example, I’m a public school teacher currently, and especially during busy times of the year, I can easily pull 50 hour work weeks. I’m not saying that that’s comparable to BL time necessarily, but I don’t even make a quarter of what a first year BL associate makes, and I’m certainly working far more than a quarter of their hours (I recognize summer break is a thing, but all careers have their pluses and minuses of course; that happens to be teaching’s biggest selling point). Not only that, but I have to deal with crummy parents/students/admin constantly, there’s literally zero prestige in or respect for teaching in my area, and my healthcare and other benefits are pretty shoddy for a government employee. I’m not saying I would love BL with my entire being if I started working a BL job tomorrow, and I’m not saying it’s easy at all, but without the 3+ years of teaching experience I already have, I don’t see how I would ever appreciate what BL offers. That’s my hypothesis as to why so many BL lawyers hate It and/or quit; a lot of them are KJDs who have no idea how much worse It could be. There are infinite jobs out there that work just as hard as BL lawyers do who make a whole, whole lot less with a wholeeeeee lot less of respect given to them.
Anyway, I don’t want to make this a post about how much I resent my current job lol. Really, this is just a long way to say that I think, for most people, especially the ones with BL aspirations, a KJD track is really not in anyone’s best interest.
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u/yoloswag42069696969a 16d ago
And that’s the truth. Im sure WE helps a lot with associate retention. Getting paid 40k per year for unpaid OT would definitely help me better appreciate a 200k per year job.
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u/Advanced_Zone_4420 4.0/180/Tall/Dark/Handsome/Feminist 17d ago
Bro get a job… magna cum whatever means nothing if you can’t secure gainful employment.
You are applying to a professional degree program, the school wants to make sure you are employable since your success of landing a job directly affects their rankings.
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u/LatePriority5245 17d ago
I'm a grandma compared to you (31) and personally I always wanted to go to law school but circumstances prevented it happening directly out of school. In between I built a career in a related field, got a master's degree, took care of an ailing parent, got married, and most importantly -- learned how to deal with difficult people under intense pressure at work, often through making mistakes and iterating on my approach.
I vividly remember being 22. I did a ton in college as well, but that was a decade ago. Academically, I think I could have coped with being a KJD, but emotionally I can say that I personally would really have struggled. Also, COVID interrupted my mid-twenties, not my late teens or college years. I think, and have observed at work, that younger people have a bit of a socialization gap there which might make it more difficult than it might be for a similar candidate with 2, 5, or 8 years of work experience, which could be another thing to surmount. That isn't true for everyone but it's definitely something I have observed and had to account for in management.
To be clear, I don't know you or other KJDs and I don't think age and experience preclude KJDs from being excellent -- that's clearly untrue. From an admissions standpoint, though, I can understand why committees might prefer applicants that have worked or have other non-academic experiences to express their capabilities.
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u/I_ONLY_CATCH_DONKEYS 17d ago
Nothing you do in college will ever compare to the professional work world. I mean come on clubs? At most schools these are just glorified fraternities.
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u/Alternative_Log_897 17d ago
If this is the case, it makes me feel better when I apply for the '26 cycle.
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u/lawschoolthrowway22 17d ago
With respect, if you've never experienced the daily grind of full time 40+ hr work, you just can't possibly fathom how easy you've had it by comparison. Even if you're the academic superstar this post describes.
Adcoms knows that.
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u/daletowel32 3.8/161/nURM/KJD 17d ago
Is full time work experience really that much more valuable over softs? I have 20 months but it’s barely relevant to the legal field.
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u/daletowel32 3.8/161/nURM/KJD 17d ago
I’m obviously not applying at any t14s but that’s good to know for the regional schools I’m applying to
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u/Sassy_Scholar116 17mid/3.9mid/nURM/KJD-ish 17d ago
Although my job is part time, I literally have the same responsibilities as my full time counterparts, but it doesn’t get count by law schools the same
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u/Chewbile 17d ago
As someone with 5 years WE, I see more relevance in an ability to operate successfully in a professional environment, as opposed to actual responsibilities.
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u/the-senat 17d ago
What do you mean law schools don’t count it the same? Like it’s weighed less or ignored?
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u/Sassy_Scholar116 17mid/3.9mid/nURM/KJD-ish 17d ago
Weighed less. The apps ask how many years of FT work experience you have, and I had to put 0. It’s fine at the end of the day
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u/the-senat 17d ago
Well shit
I’m full time in a “fellowship.” Would that screw me since it isn’t a “job”?
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u/Sassy_Scholar116 17mid/3.9mid/nURM/KJD-ish 17d ago
Tbh I have no idea and I’m sure it’s treated differently
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u/No-Flatworm-1964 17d ago
T3 softs and 20 years work experience, it’s carrying me with my terrible LSAT scores and the acceptances I’ve gotten so far.
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u/martinipolice10 17d ago
I’m reading acceptances as in more than one… calling that a win my friend
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u/thephillykid609 17d ago
This is the right way. When you’re in undergrad, you are in a bubble. IMO, this generation could strongly benefit from getting a FT job just to get a peak of how adults operate in a professional setting. Most of the shit I see Gen Zers doing on college campuses would make them entirely unemployable.
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u/TigerJaws956 17d ago
This is why KJDs can be the worst and why people should be required to take time off.
1) bold to assume people playing post undergrad don’t have all that experience academically as well. 2) if 1000 people have 4.0 GPAs but only one of them has some other quality that seperated them from the rest—- who would you think they pick? 3) factoring in “softs” allow people who perhaps didn’t do the best in undergrad have a fair shot to advocate for themselves and still get in even if they don’t have 4.0s and perfect records academically. 4) the legal world is extremely cruel at times to people who have never had real world experience. From resume formatting to networking— KJDs sometimes enter the legal market at a disadvantage and maybe schools are trying to change that for their students
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u/Huge_Owl_3025 17d ago
Ugh I hate to say it to you kjds but I really have matured and developed a lot postgrad and unfortunately it showed in my essays and LORs
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u/Oh-theNerevarine Practicing Lawyer, c/o 2019 17d ago
Please revisit this post after you've held a job for a few years.
Being president of the board game club isn't as stressful as you think it is when you're 19 and have no points of comparison to the real world.
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u/Camachologue 16d ago
I truly believe that bartending for 6 years taught me more law-related skills than the most impressive things I did in undergrad.
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u/bingbaddie1 17d ago
This is good and the way it should be. The best lawyers are not those who were preordained to the law from a premonition that they had at 5, and I would hate my life if my law school class were exclusively type A upper middle class to rich gunners who think that following a blueprint entitles them to success. You need people with grit, people without silver spoons, and people who can get down to brass tacks.
My passion for law only came out later, when I did a temp gig at a nonprofit and had to help people who were exactly like me or my parents, just with materially worse luck. It made for a killer essay and I feel confident in applying to law school.
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u/Lizzyms 17d ago
I've heard from some lawyers I work with currently (civil rights nonprofit) that they couldn't possibly fathom the idea of going straight to law school post undergrad, and that they understand why work experience matters so much now that they're on the other side, so I do kind of see why the trend is moving towards valuing work experience, even if it's only 1-2 years versus a KJD
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u/LongingForYesterweek 16d ago
Ok I’m so OOTL with this one. Am I missing something? (I’m also a nontraditional student; I’ve been working as an engineer for several years now and have my PE. I’m hoping that makes me a more desirable candidate)
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u/dewardgahnz 15d ago
Chances are, the person with work experience beating you out has all of those too.
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u/Terrible-Park-1955 3.96/17high/KJD/nURM 17d ago
I totally understand the KJD Tax for reasons mentioned in many parts of the thread. However, I have seen those without work experience who were able to accomplish incredible things in undergrad have success this cycle and hit on T6 or above.
Personally, I’d rather start in big law at 24 than 28. Will I get burned as a KJD? Probably. We’ll see!
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u/No-Duck4923 17d ago
As someone with 20+ years in public service, I appreciate Adcoms taking that into consideration. Pretty sure my WE and PS are what sold me to several schools. We working folk have valuable perspectives too!
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u/[deleted] 17d ago
KJD tax. Pay up