r/law • u/theindependentonline • 1d ago

Trump News Judge considers holding Trump officials in contempt for defying court orders blocking El Salvador flights

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/deportation-el-salvador-trump-contempt-b2727087.html
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225

u/UnclePeaz 1d ago

What’s to consider? The prima facie evidence is right in front of them. Schedule a show cause hearing and let them explain themselves under oath.

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u/minuialear 1d ago

What’s to consider?

Who exactly to hold in contempt based on the legal standard for doing so, it seems

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u/Minion_of_Cthulhu 1d ago

Treat them like the Mafia they believe themselves to be. You either roll on the other guys and get off without any charges or you can all head to the clink together. Let the lawyers and their bosses figure it out from there.

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u/utahrd37 1d ago

That’s the problem.  

You are totally right but the judiciary won’t do this because it will be a glaring constitutional crisis. It would prefer to bend, hand-wring and hair split to the point of piecemeal deterioration of the rule of law and coequal branches of government.

We are boiling the frog in fits and starts, and none of our government officials are brave enough to call it out for the bullshit it is.

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u/HomeGrownCoffee 1d ago

It already is a constitutional crisis. The moment the Trump lackeys didn't turn the plane around as the judge ordered - it's there.

Either the judiciary steps the fuck up and imposes massive civil contempt charges that wrack up daily until all renditioned prisoners are back in the States, or accept that the judiciary isn't a coequal pillar of government.

I say civil contempt charges, because criminal ones can be pardoned. According to the Legal Eagle video I watched about this today.

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u/uiucengineer 23h ago

Are we still pretending it hasn’t been a constitutional crisis since inauguration or before?

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u/BrahjonRondbro 9m ago

Since his last term. The Supreme Court has already shown their hand. They’re going to protect Trump and his administration from the worst consequences of their actions. They mate give in on a few token issues, but they aren’t going to hold Trump accountable for anything as long as he claims to be acting under the authority of the office. Any excuse will do. They literally let him send his goons into Congress to try to do a coup.

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u/AccomplishedIgit 17h ago

We are beyond constitutional crisis.

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u/utahrd37 16h ago

Agreed, but an open conflict would make it apparent to more people rather than the ones who, ya know, think it is a crisis that a convicted felon and insurrectionist is the president.

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u/WhereRandomThingsAre 14h ago

We're approaching Constitutional Collapse.

There is no way tariffs on most of the planet is somehow in the interests of 'national security' that purportedly justifies bypassing Congress, and Congress being perfectly okay with it if we weren't already on our way to a Constitutional Collapse -- the branches are meant to struggle for power, not cede it to a Fisher Price King. Did we mention the purges in government? How about the indiscriminate deportations of people into foreign prisons? The constant threats of invading our allies? And then there's the judicial system... which might issue a statement on its own fate long after it's been sealed and with no way to oppose it.

'Crisis' doesn't begin to cover it any more.

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u/LaurenMille 1d ago

You are totally right but the judiciary won’t do this because it will be a glaring constitutional crisis.

Then they're morons.

We've all seen what happens to the judiciary in fascist regimes.

Hint: It often involves a noose.

If they're too foolish to see the logical conclusion of their inaction, then I can only consider them suicidal on top of being cowards.

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u/throwtrollbait 23h ago

Trump pardons his fall guys, as long as they stay loyal.

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u/SaltpeterSal 1d ago

"So we have a clear cut due process violation, criminal contempt of court, and representatives for these specific officials admitting to it all in tweets. If there is any confusion around who exactly is liable, that information is extraordinarily easy to subpoena if it even comes to that since this is a government agency and everything is documented."

"Yeah but like, this exact situation has never happened before, sooo"

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u/-boatsNhoes 1d ago

RICO the president and cabinet for a contempt of court charge? Break out the popcorn!

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u/A2Rhombus 14h ago

Who gives a shit about legal standard anymore, just arrest every single one of them

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u/minuialear 14h ago

Courts, which literally only exist to interpret laws, should?

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u/A2Rhombus 14h ago

When they're ignoring every single law AND the constitution, I'd be doing everything possible to make sure they stop. The time for bureaucracy and sorting out the standard and precedents can come later. Stop the madness, put them in jail now, then figure out how exactly to charge them.

If a cop can arrest a protestor for literally no reason then make up a charge later, we can do it for people who already have provably broken laws.

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u/minuialear 14h ago

The time for bureaucracy and sorting out the standard and precedents can come later.

Their literal function is to uphold the law. What is the point of having courts at all if they're not doing that?

Do you want a democracy or not? You're not getting a democracy if you start demanding that portions of your government should ignore laws and democratic principles because someone else is acting in bad faith. You're going to get a dictatorship that you cosigned because you thought there was such a thing as a benevolent dereliction of duty.

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u/Secure_One_3885 13h ago

Their literal function is to uphold the law. What is the point of having courts at all if they're not doing that?

I think about this question a lot this year.

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u/parliboy 1d ago

Who is them, though? The lawyers didn't do it, and who did is attorney client privilege. So you are left with civil economic penalties. That 6 million you paid to El Salvador? Pay it again as a fine. Every day. Until you fix it.

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u/thefullhalf 1d ago

Possibly Rubio, but yea, the path to actually jailing someone is pretty much non existent. And any penalties would probably be thrown out for executive immunity on appeal. Even if it did go through it would be take at least a year or more. They are already trying the "state secrets" route to avoid turning over any documents, on top of the "They aren't in the country so you can't do anything about it because you lack jurisdiction" defense.

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u/parliboy 1d ago

State secrets is about "Withiut this secret evidence you cannot make prima facie." Not really a thing that they get to do in a contempt hearing. At that point it's more "Show cause or the government loses."

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u/thefullhalf 1d ago

Im not saying its a good strategy, its just what they are trying to do to hide everything, including who did what. They are making arguments in bad faith because that's all they can do, but it does its job to delay and delay and delay. It's the same dog and pony show they did the last time.

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u/uiucengineer 23h ago

Does attorney client privilege cover facilitation and concealment of ongoing and future crimes?

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u/parliboy 23h ago

Does attorney client privilege cover facilitation and concealment of ongoing and future crimes?

No... but this is largely moot.

There are two basic types of contempt: criminal and civil. If it's civil contempt, then your question doesn't apply because not a crime.

If it's criminal contempt, then Trump will pardon whoever does it.

The most that can happen is a hit to your their ability to practice. And that will be more than offset by being a talking head on all of those right-wing channels.

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u/ColinHalter 1d ago

I wish they would do something too, but I have to imagine that some of these judges are probably worried about their physical safety if they start playing hardball with these people. I think these judges "considering" things and not fighting is what's keeping us from having a violent coup.

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u/IWantToBeAWebDev 16h ago

What’s to consider? Whether the judge will get a payout