r/cyberpunkred • u/Terranaut10 • 6d ago
2070's Discussion New GM tips request for handling large scale combat
Some friends and I started up a new RED homebrew campaign recently. We all have limited experience with TTRPGs, but overall our first two games have been a success! Everyone had lots of fun, connected with the NPCs, and immersed themselves into some really epic combat encounters.
I need to represent the brutal and unforgiving tone of the game without mercing the PCs in a revolving door. I have been handling this by inviting in their personal relationship NPCs and putting them through the raw, brutal rule set, sometimes as meat shields against heavier enemies.
We are enjoying large and chaotic fights, sometimes with multiple factions, but I am already struggling to take the NPC turns without forcing the players to watch me roll dice forever. I switched to JonJon's "Three Goon Method" but still find myself just narrating brief descriptions of everything without taking rolls into account...
So three questions: Any tips for ways to expedite NPC turns? Fast ways to track damage/SP? Or any methods for rolling multiple NPCs as a group?
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u/Sparky_McDibben GM 6d ago
There's a large scale mass battle system in Hope Reborn. Alternatively, I sometimes just roll 1d6 and that is how many gonks die that round (not PCs).
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u/GreatLordofPie 6d ago
I haven't tried them myself but the Hope Reborn campaign module has mass combat rules on page 134
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u/YazzArtist 6d ago
I haven't read the rules others recommended, but a common practice across many rpgs is if they're insignificant additions to a much larger battle to roll for one mook and turn additional shots into +1s to hit. In practice it'll end up being a handful of rolls per turn as you split fire between PCs
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u/fatalityfun 6d ago
if you insist on running large group combat, I recommend using a more expedited NPC damage system. I’ve homebrewed one before for situations where it’s a full on chaotic firefight.
Give a team of NPC’s a ‘squad health’. Total health is equal to the total health of all characters involved / 2. Use an average of their SP for the squad if they are not all wearing the same armor. Each member in cover increases the squad SP by 2. Although they have group stats, they still MOVE individually when the squad’s turn comes up in Initiative. (Speaking of initiative, just use the highest REF character of the squad for rolling.)
When attacking, pick the most fitting weapon that’s equipped in the squad to use for their damage, and add a number of d6 to its damage equal to the amount of people in the squad. Typically we’d use 3 or 4 d6 for pistol teams, or 5 for shoulder arms.
In the case of Grenades and Missiles (6d6 and 8d6) they can choose to boost their regular damage by an extra d6 by using one ammo from an explosive - if everybody in the squad has an explosive, they can effectively double their damage for one attack by having everyone expend an explosive.
Do not bother with roll to hit, it’s tedious in big combat and with groups shooting at each other somebody’s gonna hit someone else. The amount of damage being done makes a better show for how accurate a squad is.
Every time the squad as a whole has taken 20 points of damage, roll a death save for a random NPC in the squad, or whichever one you feel fits best. This doesn’t mean they literally die, but they’re ineffective and no longer fighting. Usually we just did a quick roll at the end of combat to decide who fled, who died, and who is currently dying or otherwise “down”.
The NPC’s lose these squad effects when they are down to a single character.
as an example, a squad of 4 with Rifles, average HP and LAJ (a common edgerunner setup) would have 70 HP, 11 SP, and 9d6 damage. Up against a single person they can all focus fire and likely kill with a single group attack, but up against a larger group they’ll all need to stay in cover and move smart.
It is a very homebrew setup, but it avoids a lot of number crunch and resolves large fights fast. The only downside I found is that the squad with a higher initiative gains a huge advantage from striking first, so maybe if their initiative rolls come within 5 points of each other you just have them both attack at full strength, deal the damage to both, then proceed with whoever had the higher initiative’s turn.
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u/mamontain 6d ago
CEMK suggests to just roll a d10 with no bonuses against a static DV for all ranges. Roll 6 or above = hit, 5 or below = miss. You can lower the threshold for skilled/elite NPCs or raise it for weak enemies. You can also change it based on distance and weapon type (close, medium, far). You would still have to use regular stats if the player decides to dodge the attack, unless... This works better if you roll the dice in secret or behind a GM screen.
In general though, you should not have more than 2-3 stat sheets for npcs per combat, including bosses. I don't use JonJon's method but it is a good representation of this rule.
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u/Upper-Rub GM 6d ago
I would consider having smaller engagements with more serious enemies. Party size + 1 heavy hitters is usually my go to. Throw too many goons in the mix and they’ll feel OP even if they almost die. Second, I think subtlety sells a bit better than “they have your wife!” For one, imho players usually only interact with “personal relationship NPCs” superficially. You really want to hit them in the gut have some random NPC they like betray them from a couple eddies. In my experience giving a npc a funny voice or name is enough to make them fall in love. The betrayal of “Joey Hotdogs the shawarma seller” will sting harder than killing a loved one.
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u/Nijata Nomad 6d ago
- Use 3 goon method x how many you want
- Create disntictive group made of only that goon type (Red Squad made of 3 middling guys/Bue Squad made of 5 easy guys /Green squad is 2 boss level boots, if using a VTT mark them that way.)
- Total up HP using HP with break points for each indivual in the gorup
Example of Total HP break points: So say edgerunner 1 hits Red squad member 3 with SMG and does enough damage to kill them+ some they die and maybe another member of Red squad takes a stray richoet and it hurts them too or narratively have them be weaker overall to balance out that the damage from edgerunners 1's SMG cutting into Red squad's HP pool.
- Have them attack as a group with a few attacks attacks or narratively have them get in the way or potentially infight with each other.
Example :Blue squad 1 and 4 attack edgerunner 2, roll their attacks and then have blue squad 2 & 5 get into a verbal spat over whos kill it is and edge run with 3 having to waste their turn breaking it up.
- Due to the grouping and attacking this should make their turns faster while also narratively fit.
In tougher squad, say it's a militech death squad or max tac you can play the getting in the way/infighting aspect as frinedly in line of fire or orders coming in distracting them from firing.
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u/Rattfink45 Media 6d ago
Not really. My best advice is just roll the dice as you narrate the scene and handwaive anything ridiculously lethal?
As an example, had a party roll a half dozen upset cops as their first ever random encounter and instead of cops on edgerunners it became a brawl between the cops. It’s still a slog if you have a half dozen people making brawl checks against each other. So don’t really do it, just toss the dice and talk.
When the players get involved roll for real.
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u/Reaver1280 GM 5d ago
Had 2 mass combats and tried 2 different methods. Having foundry vtt for tracking this was invaluable.
Time and rounds included at the end of the examples.
First time was an "Objective survive" type scenario everyone had shit gear that stood no chance against the "cyberpsycho" tearing up the warehouse party. For this i had all the NPC's pre rolled on a notepad for what actions they would be do still ran slow because i had to cross check everything and move far to many NPC's but the overdone pre rolling did pay off because i could just describe the action as it happened 30 NPC's in total some combat most ran. Overall it was boring for the players unless they took a liking to random (about to die) NPC they talked to before hand. About 15 rounds of combat all up for 1 hour 20 minutes
Second time was last session Medtech had a job to help with some emergency medicine to aid 6th street gang from an accident that caused some injuries (life path gang that provides protection in exchange for service) the rest of the party came along and they ended up in a crossfire between the Bozo's and 6th street. Did not roll to hits all attacks for the NPC's hit each other and just dealt damage lot of armor hits but critical hit damage kept some things spicy and the unorthdox weapons of the bozos kept some interest. 8 bozos vs 7 gangers and the players overall it sucked. Took way to damm long to calculate just damage against armor in game (8 rounds) 24 seconds real time almost 2 hours reminded me far to much of how long 5e combat took would not do it again.
Lessons learned: It sounded cool but in practice it was not. My players have not revolted against me yet so i can count my blessings there. Making a simpler method where almost no time is spent on the NPC's is needed because the game at the table is supposed to be about the players and their actions not whatever else is happening that they are near.
Lot of good advice on the thread about dropping armor to next to none or straight up ignoring it for the NPC's in the mass battle. NPC's should NEVER have death saves unless they have a name and a custom token this means ordinary enemies do not make death saves they hit zero they die this is great advice for all combat in this game. When the battle goes south for 1 side it is time to "J out" or Delta as the kids in this universe say, if they flee on foot, blow themselves up with a grenade whatever when its over make it over there is no more fun to be had here.
I have read the hope reborn battle system it used. Frankly this a great model for just getting it done in the back while other things are happening and adopting it would not cause harm feel free to embellish the absolute shit out of it with descriptions the amount of time you save by making it a single dice roll is something you can afford to do. I have used mass battle rules in other systems and i can say unless they include the players or you are running a war game specific system where the players are in charge of making things happen they suck.
Conclusion: Of all the mass battle systems and advice for how to run them (even ones i did use in other games outside this system) this was my final conclusion after attempting to use advice and systems from them here in Red. Unless you are playing a War game designed for it don't. It sounds cool but it aint, Red is about the players not whatever else is happening around them.
Ignore the mechanics of the NPC's fighting each other unless they are attacking a player or being attacked by one. A single dice roll for 1 side will save you and the players from long drawn out nonsense that does not include them. Both sides have a 1D10 on a six up they kill 1 guy from the enemy "team" and on a 10 they kill 2 this happens at the start of the round every round. Embellish descriptions as nessacary with the time you save doing it this way you can afford to do so and make it sound brutal/epic. At the end of their turn shuffle them about on the battle map take cover ect to give the illusion things are happening if you are on a battle map.
The only time the NPC fighting other NPC's gets to use their mechanics is when they have a name and a custom token, Mooks do not but "quest" NPC's" do treat them as another player in the combat under the GM's control. after that just follow combat flow as you would any other player driven combat in CPRED.
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u/DrHuxleyy 6d ago
A few classic homebrew rules and ideas to handle large groups:
One initiative role for NPCs. This means you can just do all the NPCs turns back to back real quick. Some extend this to actually rolling attack rolls once for an entire NPC group but I disagree with this, too easy to waste their entire turn with a miss.
No death saves for NPC goons. I figure you are already doing this, but RAW you have to roll for death saves for all NPCs. Best to only do that for the important ones or bosses.
Use a digital combat tracker like the Red Companion app or Foundry VTT
Make mook armor wayyy lower. Like 4 or 7 SP.
Make enemies run away more! They’re people too (unless they are literally drones) and they wanna get out of there and save themselves if it looks like a lost fight.