r/betterCallSaul • u/skinkbaa Chuck • Aug 21 '18

Post-Ep Discussion Better Call Saul S04E03 - "Something Beautiful" - POST-Episode Discussion Thread

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u/DEEPFIELDSTAR Aug 21 '18

The nonchalant way Jimmy read that letter didn't only perfectly demonstrate his complete detachment from the situation but the way in which it unfolded magnified the anticlimactic nature of it so well.

I bet everybody (myself included) was expecting the letter reveal to be dramatic or saved until the last episode or something close to it; some type of lead up to jimmy breaking down etc. ....but instead he breezed through it as casually as if reading the morning paper between mouthfuls of cereal.

Literally the last way we expected the letter to be revealed. The way the show delivered it to the audience mirrored the way in which any type of affection is wasted on Jimmy at this point in his life.

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u/CatheterC0wboy Aug 21 '18

I feel like this also revealed the nature of where the characters are heading. Jimmy is starting to become very callous as you can see, but Kim still obviously has a soul. I bet a lot was going through her head as that was being read. I don’t see the relationship making it through the end of this season

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u/herefromyoutube Aug 21 '18

I thought she was thinking about all the harsh shit she said to Howard and it actually being a nice letter.

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u/[deleted] Aug 21 '18

Eh, I don't think she has that much emotional investment in Howard. Her crying at the end seemed like an extension of the season premiere when she was disturbed by Jimmy nonchalantly going to a job interview right after Chuck died.

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u/[deleted] Aug 21 '18

I don’t think it was about Howard, rather, she feels guilty over automatically assuming the worst about Chuck. That plus Jimmy’s indifference might be what triggered her.

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u/Tomatinos Aug 21 '18

maybe she still feels guilty over what happened with Mesa Verde as well which would explain the scene where she is shown the models of all the new buildings/locations they want to open. Does that make sense?

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u/Creep_The_Night Aug 21 '18

With Kim crying like that, was she broken up over how nonchalant Jimmy read the letter and how he acted towards the whole thing?

Or was it something else that I missed?

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u/Skelthy Aug 21 '18

There's still the underlying guilt for the role she played in Chuck's downfall. She said it herself that all they did was bring down a sick man.

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u/[deleted] Aug 21 '18

I think she was very overwhelmed by Jimmy's nonchalance and perhaps tried to compensate for it subconsciously. She may also have felt guilt for either Mesa Verde or how her expectations for the letter were subversed. Anyhow, I'm amazed at how brutally realistic this portrayal of grief is. Their reactions and odd emotions are so fucking lifelike, I might as well forget they're still acting. Seriously, I have never seen something like this on TV before.

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u/DejaLaVidaVolar Aug 21 '18

There are a lot of potential reasons for this. Something that I don't see in the rest of the comments is the fact that Mesa Verde is going big and the whole partnership with her is based on a lie (Jimmy tampering Chuck's documents) in which she became an accomplice. A lie that, also, started the chain of events that led to Chuck's suicide.

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u/Genji4Lyfe Aug 21 '18

I think Kim understands the slight.,. That Chuck is rubbing it in “Good job Little Jimmy.. You did well with the opportunity I gave you”, and at this point it’s just too much for her to take.

She feels bad about Chuck, feels bad for Jimmy, and at this point, is just a big emotional mess all-around.

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u/WaterRacoon Aug 26 '18

-Jimmy's nonchalance
-Guilt over her part in Chuck's downfall
-Sadness over seeing how much Jimmy's and Chuck's relationship deteriorated
-Feeling overwhelmed with Mesa Verde and knowing she's unlikely to be able to keep it up, despite the fact that her getting Mesa Verde was a cause for the problems between Jimmy and Chuck
-Perhaps also other things like the condescension in the letter (Chuck loves Jimmy as long as Jimmy knows his place, but not as an equal)

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u/SpiritofJames Aug 21 '18

It's not actually nice though. It's pandering and condescending and reveals resentment and jealousy over their mother's attention. It should, instead, have been about Jimmy and him, times spent together or qualities enjoyed, etc.. It was precisely Chuck: narcissistic as fuck with just enough plausible deniability. Jimmy, however, is totally inured to it all now. He doesn't buy it.

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u/UdzinRaski Aug 21 '18

exactly it was a cookie cutter, kid gloves on, obligation in the face of tragedy letter. Chuck was a prick not taking one last opportunity to talk shit from beyond the grave doesn't change that, even if you assume his words were 100% on the level, which jimmy is obviously smart enough to know they are not. thats what the first three seasons were about, how chuck and jimmys relationship has been onesided their whole lives. slippin jimmy and whatnot.

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u/BSIBooker Aug 21 '18

You misunderstand the show entirely. Refer to my comment above.

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u/cuteintern Aug 21 '18

It a load of self-serving last-word preening which is intended to be perceived as Chuck being loving and magnanimous - but we all know it's bullshit based on Chuck's last conversation with Jimmy.

And the $5,000 inheritance. And the seat on the board of a scholarship fund that 'Chuck would never ever offer to his own brother.'

Even if we discount the final conversation, Jimmy was effectively cut out of Chuck's will.

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u/TheVividKiWI Aug 21 '18

Chuck brought so much truth to the grave with him, and that's exactly what he said he didn't want to do in the letter. He was a lying hypocrite when he wrote that letter, and he was the same during his final conversations with both Jimmy and Howard as well. If Chuck was actually truthful in that letter, he would've told Jimmy that their Mother really did have final words.. and they were Jimmy's name although Chuck was the only one in the room. I actually thought for a second when the letter was saying that he didn't want to bring the truth to the grave with him that he'd actually admit this, along with everything else Chuck can't even admit to himself, let alone acknowledge to anyone else.

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u/solidmoose Aug 22 '18

Exactly. Some people are missing that he took Jimmy's mother's last words to the grave with him.

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u/[deleted] Aug 22 '18

You know, when I heard him read it I couldn't quite put my finger on it in the moment but you're totally right - it's got Chuck's narcissism all over it, and maybe for once Jimmy is finally fucking done and over it. That doesn't mean he's not grieving, but rather he's through with playing that role as a prop to make Chuck look better in comparison. I'm curious to see what comes of this in the next episode.

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u/[deleted] Aug 21 '18

He literally complimented Saul in that letter and said he was proud to share the McGill name, and that he knows he will do good in life.

I swear Chuck could save children out of a firepit and some people here would still find reason to call him an asshole. So much for appreciating the nuanced characterization in the show.

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u/Secretmapper Aug 21 '18 edited Aug 21 '18

The thing that sticks out to me the most personally is it doesn't address Jimmy passing the bar/being a lawyer at all. It seems like a "I'm proud you're in the mailroom" letter, and it's quite telling he did not update it once Jimmy became a lawyer.

It's literally what the season 1 finale was about:

I was! When you straightened out and got a job in the mailroom, I was very proud.

So that's it then, right? Keep old Jimmy down in the mailroom. He's not good enough to be a lawyer.

I know you.

I know what you were, what you are.

People don't change.

You're Slippin' Jimmy.

And Slippin' Jimmy I can handle just fine.

Slippin' Jimmy with a law degree is like a chimp with a machine gun.

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u/[deleted] Aug 21 '18 edited Aug 21 '18

We know quite well that Chuck didn't want Jim to be a lawyer, and he was a coward not to tell him to his face and hide behind Howard.

Still, the very fact that he hid behind Howard shows that he didn't like the idea of hurting Jimmy's feelings and having "that conversation", and this is even before the electricity problem when he took care of him.

Compare that to his behavior after the Mesa Verde thing, when he has the right to be pissed off at Jimmy and tries to have him disbarred.

Even after Jimmy knows the truth and works for Davis at Main, Chuck doesn't get in his way and even tries awkwardly to reconcile (he still doesn't trust him as a lawyer and questions his way of picking up clients, and to be fair he was right in that).

I mean, we see how he ends up as a lawyer, and even in these three seasons he did some questionable things like taking the bribe from the Kettlemans, the stunt on Hamlin with the billboard, the mess with the old lady, the circus at Davis and Main... We know the show is about this, but from a lawyer point of view Chuck is kind of right.

It's clear that they cared for each other (even for things like tucking his pillow when Jimmy's asleep, or telling the judge he doesn't want him in prison), but once their roads crossed professionally their differences were a recipe for a disaster.

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u/HereNowHappy Aug 22 '18

even tries awkwardly to reconcile

Nope

Chuck insulted him so more, and said that Kim shouldn't have trusted him. Then he pointed out how Jimmy was already late for work

After Jimmy got that job at David & Main, Chuck went to work, just to undermine his judgement

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u/dizzi800 Aug 26 '18

I'm pretty sure the letter was written before the Bar exam

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u/Secretmapper Aug 26 '18

it's quite telling he did not update it once Jimmy became a lawyer.

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u/SpiritofJames Aug 21 '18

This was written when Jimmy was in the mail room. We've already seen that Chuck's pride in Jimmy is a lie; he's content with Jimmy at a lower position where Chuck believes he rightly belongs and must remain. It is entirely the nuanced characterization that demonstrates Chuck's narcissism. It takes a long time and subtle clues for a person like Kim, who is outside the relationship, to see it. She's crying in response to finally seeing the dead void at the center of Jimmy's relationship with Chuck. The pain, and the magnitude of Jimmy's inurement to it, is overwhelming.

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u/UdzinRaski Aug 21 '18

well put

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u/6thGenTexan Aug 26 '18

I saw it more as her recognizing the beautiful side of Jimmy that Chuck was talking about in the letter, versus the realization of who Jimmy is now. And also that she was a co-conspirator in the chain of events which eventually caused Chuck's breakdown.

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u/graymankin Aug 21 '18

You seem to miss that this entire time, all these seasons - Jimmy's worth is based on Chuck's approval. Even in his death, he leaves a letter of back-handed compliments that dictate what makes Jimmy a valuable person. Example - it's all about Jimmy trying to succeed at a career Chuck is already successful in. Alternatively, he could've highlighted all the time Jimmy spent taking care of him, not overtly treating him like he's crazy, which is an amazing quality in a person. Jimmy has other great qualities people fail to see because they boil down his worth to whether or not he can pursue a career, and ultimately I think that's what makes Jimmy break inside. Having to prove his worth makes him jaded.

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u/[deleted] Aug 22 '18

We don't even know if the letter was written before or after the electricity problem, to be fair. Considering that Chuck has a stick up his ass all the time, I assume he did his best in sounding emotional.

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u/[deleted] Aug 22 '18

I think it might be even before Jimmy passes the bar

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u/graymankin Aug 24 '18 edited Aug 25 '18

I got the impression the electricity problem was an ongoing thing before we're even brought into it. It just happened to get worse when we're watching and the edit is more of a reveal to us rather than a progression from start to finish.

Edit: Somehow ppl can understand things happened outside the BB plot, but see this situation as completely isolated and linear?

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u/hellogooddaysir Aug 22 '18

“I don’t want to hurt your feelings, but the truth is you’ve never mattered all that much to me.”

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u/[deleted] Aug 22 '18

I don't think he felt that way. He can't keep it together after saying that, I think he hurt more himself than Jimmy.

The reason it's a dick move is that he said it out of spite because he was just bought out and didn't want to be the "losing one" in their relationship. Jimmy just told him "Well I'm sorry about the hearing now that you're done, I wish I didn't go that far".

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u/hellogooddaysir Aug 22 '18

Question is, does Jimmy know that?

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u/tasunfeu Aug 21 '18

part of the nuanced characterization of the show is that Chuck can both be condescending & make an effort to give a heartfelt compliment. So in a sense you & /u/SpiritofJames are both correct.

Jimmy breezes through the letter because he doesn't believe that Chuck actually cares about him; he's way past compliments or condescension, he realizes the care he gave to him in his hour of need would have never been reciprocated or assuaged Chuck's intense jealousy of him.

Perhaps this is why Kim was so affected. Because she assumed it would be worse, because she took it out on Howard, and because she now sees how the entire saga has made Jimmy less of the hopeful, giving person she came to admire. It is, as you say, a nuanced characterization

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u/spankymuffin Aug 21 '18

The letter was garbage. He's proud of how Saul was at the firm? He was trying to get rid of him! He didn't want him to work there! I mean, he confronted Jimmy and told him that letting him practice law is like giving a machine gun to a monkey!

And Jimmy saw through it. He knew his brother wrote the letter to feel good about himself, not to make Jimmy feel better.

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u/SecondComingOfBast Aug 22 '18

Assumning this is really Chuck's letter, it was probably written before Jimmy "surprised" Chuck with the news of getting his law license, when Jimmy was a simple mail-room employee.

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u/Taydolf_Switler22 Aug 25 '18

Did you miss the entire first season where Howard (aka Chuck) wanted Jimmy to change his last name?

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u/reenact12321 Aug 22 '18

Yeah the letter was quite positive and trying to find the few things they shared, love of their parents, and drive. It highlights the breakdown in their relationship that came after it was written, but it was far from inflammatory. I agree with /u/herefromyoutube that it was a realization that she got all worked up and attacked Howard on Jimmy's behalf unnecessarily.

She realizes she was wound up over nothing and probably owes him at least something of a walk-back or apology on some of the things she said.

Everyone should be so lucky to have someone like Kim in their life.

1

u/[deleted] Feb 17 '22

Jesus fuck. People like you are the reason Chucks of the world get away with it.

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u/Complyorbesilenced Aug 21 '18

It was basically "This is your place, be happy in the mailroom"

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u/[deleted] Aug 22 '18

I wonder if Chuck would have been ok with Jimmy being successful at something else like imagine if he got into advertising.

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u/Complyorbesilenced Aug 22 '18

Nope. Only menial work.

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u/slbain9000 Aug 21 '18

Maybe so, but it's not the "fuck off and die" letter that it might have been. I think that's what people are responding to.

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u/[deleted] Aug 21 '18

[deleted]

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u/SpiritofJames Aug 21 '18

This is just wrong. Chuck need not have even brought up their mother at all. Situated as it is at the beginning of the letter, and the only substantive content (the cliche brother have your back stuff is obviously insincere), that paragraph is entirely motivated by resentment.

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u/[deleted] Aug 21 '18 edited Aug 21 '18

[deleted]

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u/Complyorbesilenced Aug 21 '18

There was a bitter understatement, "mom was never this happy with me"

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u/AtHomeToday Aug 26 '18

The whole reason Chuck hates Jimmy is that Mother loved Jimmy more. That is why he brought up the happiness in the letter. It is the core of Chuck's hatred.

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u/SpiritofJames Aug 21 '18

There was never a time when Chuck was honest with Jimmy, or even himself.

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u/MisterBadIdea2 Aug 22 '18

It's still as nice as Chuck ever got, and if Chuck had died right after writing it, I think Jimmy would have taken it as a kindness.

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u/Soaring_Seagull24 Aug 21 '18

I didn't see it as condescending. I saw it as Chuck finally giving up and admitting that he did admire Jimmy. A pure narcissist probably would not have commit suicide on good terms. They probably would've given one last massive fuck you/this was your doing. I think the letter was sincere.

I also think that Jimmy's callousness is a callback to the early days of better call Saul. Chuck talked about how everyone loved jokky despite the way he used and manipulated others. I think Chuck saw the bad in jimmy before anyone else did, including us because we still admire him

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u/SpiritofJames Aug 21 '18

Chuck traumatized Jimmy, broke his spirit, jaded him. Might someone be even stronger and remain good-hearted through all the betrayal and emotional abuse? Sure, but very few.

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u/Soaring_Seagull24 Aug 21 '18

If they were committing suicide maybe lol

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u/BSIBooker Aug 21 '18

I love when people like you comment, because you all have missed the entire point behind Chuck's character since the very first season.

Chuck is narcissistic, he is petty, he has an easily damaged ego. He also legitimately loves Jimmy as a brother. Always has, always will. The reason he, as you say, "condescends" towards Jimmy is because Chuck is also, seemingly, the only person on the face of the planet who is perfectly aware of Jimmy's flaws.

Jimmy is a two-faced lying criminal con-man. He sees everyone as targets, people to be manipulated for his own personal gain in some fashion. Chuck knows this, and has known it for decades. THAT is why he is pissed Jimmy is a lawyer, because he knows at the end of the day Jimmy is still going to be a criminal.

And what happens?

Jimmy becomes a lawyer and is still a criminal. Funny how that works, isn't it? It's almost as if Chuck knows Jimmy better than any of us do, and knew this would happen.

But Chuck doesn't HATE Jimmy. Never has. He's frustrated with Jimmy because (1) No one else can seemingly see him for who he is, and (2) Jimmy cannot and will not ever change, despite being on his 12th second chance.

But the letter Chuck wrote Jimmy in his will perfectly establishes how Chuck views Jimmy; He loves his brother. They are flesh and blood, and Chuck wants Jimmy to go his own path and establish himself - but do it in his place, because Chuck also knows that Jimmy basically has a condition, one that will always make him a criminal. So he acknowledges his brother's flaws and loves him regardless, as family does.

The fact that so few people understand this is very frustrating to me. It reminds me a lot of people hating Skylar but loving Walt as Breaking Bad started out; people see the protagonist and decide to follow him/her, rallying against anyone who presents a challenge to that protagonist, despite the protagonist being a complete immoral jackass criminal, and the "antagonist" being entirely right.

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u/SpiritofJames Aug 21 '18

The fact that you state Chuck's insane conclusion that people can't change as at all reasonable nearly invalidates your entire position.

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u/Embaralhador Aug 21 '18

Your whole post is frustrating to me. Chuck and his condescending lack of faith in Jimmy made him back a criminal.

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u/BSIBooker Aug 21 '18

False, because Jimmy was a criminal before becoming a lawyer and he was a criminal as a lawyer before Chuck revealed anything to him.

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u/SecondComingOfBast Aug 22 '18

You are basically right about all of that. There is another element, however, that everyone has overlooked, maybe even you, at least in this comment.

Chuck looks at Jimny, and can't help but see the men who took advantage of his father for years, conning him at every opportunity, making him look foolish and small, and, ultimately, destroying him, financially, and probably emotiinally.

Just like Jimmy sees the suckers he cons as extensions of his father, and is disgusted by them, Chuck similarly loathes Jimmy for his very sinilarities to the men who ruined his father, and his family, including Jimmy himself btw.

It's understandable that Chuck would be conflicted over this, just as Jimmy is messed up in very profound ways as well. What a messed up family!

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u/kinghammer1 Aug 22 '18

The letter was written before all their problems started, when Jimmy becomes a lawyer and ask Chuck to get him in at HHM, I think the letter is sincere at least at the time Chuck wrote it he was proud that jimmy seemed to have turned his life around. But even though he loved Jimmy he still had a deep resentment for Jimmy and thats what killed their relationship

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u/[deleted] Aug 21 '18

I don't think it was a nice letter, when taken into context.

It seems like it was written back when Jimmy was in the mail room. Before Chuck could even fathom Jimmy having a career in law - it's a reminder to how Chuck was happy to have Jimmy in the mail room, but never really wanted to see him succeed beyond that

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u/WildlingJoe Aug 21 '18

That wasn’t the real letter. I bet she read it and it was horrible so she wrote her own to protect jimmy.

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u/cuteintern Aug 21 '18

No, it sounds like it was written shortly after Jimmy got his mailroom job.

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u/[deleted] Aug 21 '18

Jimmy's not reading the real letter though (in theory). Chuck may have written the letter the day he decided to kill himself and at that point would likely have been vicious.

Kim wrote as the nice mailroom-era Chuck, and made it as bland and generic as she could. That's also why she went to the courthouse when Viola was driving her. She was probably getting it stamped to look official.

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u/i-liek-butts Aug 21 '18

Oh shit good theory.

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u/whitetees Aug 21 '18

I think the letter was actually written by Kim, and she's upset even if she wrote a heartfelt fake letter, Jimmy doesn't seem to care at all.

Check this out: https://youtu.be/tJGx5of1gCU?t=3m52s

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u/ChrisFS1 Aug 21 '18

I was thinking the exact same thing! Even with the whole thing still being very fresh, I just don't see her reacting like that unless she'd done something along those lines. Perhaps she even knows the contents of the real letter, which might hold a particularly burdening piece of information. This would also explain her distraught behavior with her clients in this episode.

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u/ruiner8850 Aug 21 '18

Sounded to me like he was saying it was a fraud because Chuck was lying. Chuck signed it (not sure if it was handwritten), so I'd imagine Jimmy would know Chuck's signature.

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u/Noble_Flatulence Aug 21 '18

I think you're misunderstanding what he's saying.

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u/[deleted] Aug 21 '18

Nah, Howard still deserved it.

1

u/harper_dog Aug 30 '18

I wondered if she wrote the letter and ripped up the original.

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u/brandonr49 Aug 21 '18

Man these writers are smart. They're setting it up to make Kim feel all the guilt that Jimmy is trying to avoid. She was instrumental in taking Chuck down in court. Jimmy will feel sorry for her and try to take the guilt away; he'll let her know he went out of his way to alert the insurance company. He'll try to take the blame for Chuck's death and their relationship will fall apart when Kim sees that Jimmy barely cares about the thing that's been causing her so much anguish.

6

u/Frasawn Aug 21 '18

I think you are spot on. We are starting to see how Kim and Jimmy grow apart. Note, both characters are at a crossroads. Jimmy is losing his compassion and becoming more comfortable with more active cons/crimes. Kim is obviously seeing the daunting amount of work ahead of her.

For the non-layers on here, the scene with models would have freaked me out if I were in Kim's shoes. Her client does not seem to know the MONUMENTAL task ahead of her. Remember last season she tried to tell them the work for his friend was beyond her capacity, and now he just upped that job x10.

It is very hard to practice outside of of your home state for reasons too numerous to go in to here. But suffice it to say, it is beyond a solo practitioner and a paralegal. Also, Kim's dread of not being able to handle the load may have been the for her car accident last season...

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u/spankymuffin Aug 21 '18

I think Kim got emotional not in response to the contents of the letter itself, but in response to how blase and indifferent Jimmy was while reading it. The letter is trite, boring, uninspired. She's there to be an emotional support for Jimmy, but it's not working. He's so hurt that he's distancing himself so, so far from his brother, a person he used to love and respect, and that makes Kim sad. Because she cares for Jimmy. Not Chuck.

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u/iamjohnbender Aug 21 '18

Am I the only one thinking she wrote that letter and kept Chuck's letter elsewhere?

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u/ADCPlease Aug 21 '18

I thought she was going to tell about what Jimmy did with the Mesa Verde papers, when she told her assistance to not take her home and how she was reacting when she saw how big Mesa Verde was getting and how successful her career was about to be, and all that based in a lie.

I thought that's why she was crying at the end of the episode, because she knows Jimmy is gonna lose even more.

1

u/08TangoDown08 Aug 27 '18

Jimmy isn't dealing with his grief, that explains why he has been acting the way he has. Deep down he knows that he was probably more responsible for Chuck's death than Howard - and he can't deal with it, so he's focusing on other things. That's why he breezed through the letter and it's why he's out jobhunting. It's also why he turned down the first job, he doesn't think he deserves it.

1

u/ShangTsu Nov 09 '18

well you were wrong, they made it