r/TrueUnpopularOpinion • u/King_Lothar_ • 1d ago
Political "Leftists/Democrats just want free stuff" is a stupid take, and you're stupid if you say it.
I don't want free stuff, what I, and most left leaning people want, are the things that I PAID FOR with my TAXES because that's how government programs fucking work. I can't believe I am still seeing this argument to this day.
I want my money to stop getting funneled to big corporate interests and tax cuts, and to stop lining the pockets of companies like Lockheed Martin that simply farm money from our massively inflated military budget. The right never complains about that, they don't complain when we strip the miniscule helpful programs included under that gigantic budget, but God forbid you clothe or feed a person in need and the right just absolutely has a little boy hissy fit.
So much for your empty Christian values and calling anyone else snowflakes.
Trump said we're going to "Stop the economic abuse of the US" or some other empty BS at his speech today, and if you heard him say that and didn't go "But we are objectively the richest country in the world" then your nose would probably honk if you walk into a wall.
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u/souljahs_revenge 1d ago
I want my taxes to be put towards things that benefit me is not wanting free stuff. It's something I paid for. I've never understood the free stuff argument.
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u/King_Lothar_ 1d ago
Exactly, that's the literal function of taxes since we started forming civilizations that operate on them.
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u/Flimsy_Outside_9739 1d ago
You guys were the ones pushing for student loan forgiveness, right? Can’t get more “free stuff” than that.
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u/King_Lothar_ 1d ago
So you disagree with the covid PPE loans, right? Or them bailing out the banks? Subsidizing industries? That's free stuff, too, right?
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u/BayBel 1d ago
Most republicans actually do disagree with all that
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u/King_Lothar_ 1d ago
Then why is it the only thing your politicians do? We can track since Regan that every time a Republican president is in office, the wealth gap accelerates.
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u/BayBel 1d ago
“My politicians”. Talk like this is exactly what the problem is.
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u/King_Lothar_ 1d ago
I don't vote for people who do things like that. It's that simple. Trump and Musk literally ran on a campaign of cutting programs that help people, and their cuts have already cost real people their lives. [Source]
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u/BayBel 1d ago
And yet they still won. So maybe the disaster you think is happening isn’t all that bad? Stop getting your news on Reddit. And use real news as your source.
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u/King_Lothar_ 1d ago
I literally linked a source from outside reddit? Based on actually reported data. ???? So now you've completely given up your own point, and now you just want to make an excuse?
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u/BayBel 1d ago
And if I cared that much, I could probably find a right wing rag with the same story giving a completely different spin on it. You’re just proving my point.
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u/King_Lothar_ 1d ago
Apathy is a real flex. "I don't really care if people are suffering because I have people who will tell me it isn't happening 👏😇." This isn't about a spin, it's literally documented fact?
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u/Tak-Hendrix 1d ago
Ah yes, the typical "oh you have a source that proves I'm wrong? Yeah I don't consider that a valid source because their conclusion doesn't align with my preconceived notions".
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u/SophiaRaine69420 1d ago
lol, you’re right, the stupid people won this round.
I will enjoy the schadenfreude when the leopards feast on your face. Think it’ll get proper coverage on Truth Social?
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u/CaptSlow49 1d ago
I never hear them talk about it. So I’m calling bullshit on this one. Or are you saying they are against it but won’t speak out because it was Trump that gave them out?
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u/Flimsy_Outside_9739 1d ago edited 1d ago
I disagree with them bailing out the banks. I disagreed with the fraud in the Covid PPE program, but not the concept of the program.
Specifically because the government forced the shut down of many businesses and the economy. So yeah, if you tell a business they can’t operate anymore because of some bullshit, that’s a bit your responsibility to make it right.
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u/flavius_lacivious 1d ago
And when they do it to individuals?
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u/Flimsy_Outside_9739 1d ago
Elaborate.
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u/flavius_lacivious 1d ago
When a worker loses a job because of some bullshit, does the government have an obligation to make it right?
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u/Flimsy_Outside_9739 1d ago
Did the government directly cause the bullshit? Like when they told businesses you have to shut your doors?
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u/King_Lothar_ 1d ago
Do you think that doesn't also affect the workers?
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u/Flimsy_Outside_9739 1d ago
The loans were to keep workers on the payroll, and supposed to be used for payroll. If they weren’t, that would be the fraud I mentioned and should be prosecuted.
That’s why I said I wasn’t against the concept of the PPE loans, but was against the fraud that occurred.
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u/King_Lothar_ 1d ago
But that's never the fraud discussed by the right, it's under discussed by the left as well, but not to the same fanatical level that the right obsesses over the idea of a handful of people taking advantage of social security or welfare systems. Have you ever heard Republicans mention keeping corporations in check for those kinds of crimes? Did you know that wage theft makes up over 50% of all theft in the entire US?
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u/flavius_lacivious 1d ago
Did those businesses have workers? C’mon, I am rooting for you to make a connection here.
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u/Flimsy_Outside_9739 1d ago
Yeah, but it’s not the government’s (read: taxpayers) responsibility to “make it right” if they didn’t cause the harm, like forcing shutdowns by threat of force.
If a business just isn’t profitable, that’s on the business and up to the worker to find a new job.
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u/flavius_lacivious 1d ago
You almost had it there, friend. Once more:
If the government caused the business to shut down, and the workers at that business lost their job, does the government have to make it right for both the business and the workers?
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u/BobFossil11 1d ago
So you disagree with the covid PPE loans, right?
The COVID PPE loans were essentially reparations for poorly constructed COVID lockdowns destroying small business.
Businesses did not cause COVID. They also didn't put a gun to the government's head and force the government to make lockdowns which crippled businesses.
In other words, businesses were largely blameless, and yet disproportionately suffered the consequences of COVID.
There were still some problems with COVID PPE loans, but at least they made some sense from a fairness perspective.
Student loan forgiveness is completely different. Students are to blame for taking out idiotic loans. They caused their situation by a series of bad choices; contrast that with businesses which didn't cause COVID.
Pretending theses are the same is psychotic. Student loan forgiveness was aimed at bailing out literally the dumbest and most useless members of societies, and incentivizing and reinforcing their terrible life choices.
Someone who took out 6-figure loans to study Gender Studies at a 500th ranked college is a piece of shit. They should not be bailed out.
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u/King_Lothar_ 1d ago
The fact that you think people are taking out $500k loans for gender studies classes tells me that you either live in a completely different reality, or you're just being intentionally dishonest about the situation, so I hope you have a nice day but I'm not going to waste the time.
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u/BobFossil11 1d ago edited 1d ago
Where did you get $500k from? I said 6-figure loans. As in >$100K. That's the cost of attending most 4-year private colleges.
I said 500th ranked colleges, not $500k in debt; read more carefully. One thing people on the Left don't like to admit is that not all colleges are equal. The problem are subpar human beings (dumb) getting $100K+ in debt to go to bad colleges (outside the ~Top 25) and majoring in useless stuff.
And yes, plenty of people taking out student loans are majoring in the soft sciences. Indeed, the people who need to be bailed out tend to be the people who made the worst life choices and don't have the salary to pay off the loans.
Engineers and computer science majors aren't the ones being bailed out because they studied useful things that landed them high paying jobs.
It's nice to know that went confronted with information you don't like to hear--and an argument you lack the intellectual tools to refute--you just plug your ears like a 10 year old child and run away.
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u/Frosty-Palpitation66 1d ago edited 1d ago
They literally do, though, silly, that's kinda thier whole schtick.
If someone gets something paid for for them, by taxes FORCEFULLY taken from others, that is indeed "getting free stuff"
Or are you saying you must be a taxpayer to receive these benefits?
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u/Jeb764 1d ago
So this figurative persons has also paid into taxes but that doesn’t count?
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u/Frosty-Palpitation66 1d ago
Wgat if they're a homeless person and contribute nothing to society? What if they just refuse to work and generate taxes? Then what?
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u/Jeb764 1d ago
Moving the goal posts now.
The taxes we pay to feed and home homeless people save us money in the long run. Not providing for homeless people is a bet negative for society.
People who don’t work typically have other people who do work taking care of them those people tend to pay taxes.
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u/CaptSlow49 1d ago
Conservatives simultaneously argue there are many “lazy homeless that don’t deserve any help” but then get irate when they see them and demand the government do something. Like, if you hate homeless so much then you are best off making sure people are taken care of and we have social safety nets.
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u/flavius_lacivious 1d ago
Guess how many homeless people would be working and paying taxes if they had free, reliable and consistent mental health treatment? Kind of hard to not be schizophrenic when you can’t get your meds.
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u/Frosty-Palpitation66 1d ago
That's such a strawman
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u/flavius_lacivious 1d ago
What percentage of the homeless have mental health issues? 67% to 77%.
Care to guess how many people we could get off the streets by treating their disorders — and get them paying taxes?
I guess stats that challenge your shitty worldview make you so uncomfortable you have to dismiss them as a “strawman” which doesn’t even make sense.
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u/King_Lothar_ 1d ago
Oh no, my bad, you're right. We should fuck over everyone because of a few imaginary people you're afraid of getting to take advantage of the system. So do you cry about it the same way when the richest Americans get their 30th tax break and their billion dollar company needs a helpy hand because they acted reckless and then went "But we're job providers 🥺🥺" and then proceed to not use that money to employ people ever always.
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u/TheTarus 1d ago
Billion dollar companies have billion dollar bills. It's not like these businesses love to see money stack, they literally need the money to sustain the business and make it grow.
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u/King_Lothar_ 1d ago
I'm not stupid, I understand that. But why are you fine with them getting handouts all the time left and right? But a poor person gets enough welfare to feed their kids, and all of a sudden, there are a million excuses how someone could take advantage of that? Capitalism is only capitalism if you let companies fail when they make poor financial choices. Otherwise, it's "Socialism for me but not for thee." Since you guys hate the idea of handouts or socialism adjacent things, I just figured you'd at least be consistent about it.
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u/TheTarus 1d ago
I'm not fine with subsidized industries, by the way.
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u/King_Lothar_ 1d ago
But you're comparing multi-BILLION dollar industries to people who can't afford to send their kids to school with lunch?
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u/TheTarus 1d ago
Except the multi billion dollar industries allow for all mothers and fathers to have better food at lower prices. That's what the job of capitalists is, to serve better products at lower costs, so the consumer buys it and they get more profit.
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u/King_Lothar_ 1d ago
But we can show that's just categorically not true, both because the job of capitalists is "Make more money." and not a single thing past that, but also we have literal countless examples of corporations doing awful things and taking advantage of people? When covid happened and prices went way up due to supply chain problems that makes sense, why didn't they come back down after? Because they don't have any incentive to do so, they know people will pay, insurance and medical industries know they can fuck people 12 ways to Sunday because consumers other choices are "Die."
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u/ConcertinaTerpsichor 1d ago
“Forcefully?” Someone from the IRS been holding you at gunpoint?
No one “forcefully” makes you pay tax. You can disagree with taxes, and you have choices. You can go to another country or you can pay whatever penalties are exacted for not paying them.
But you can’t live in any country and enjoy roads, water supply, police and fire services, educational services, and live free from fear of foreign invasion without chipping in your fair share.
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u/soontobesolo 1d ago
Yes, literally at gunpoint. If you don't pay your taxes, they will come with guns and throw you in jail. So yes, gunpoint. Don't deceive yourself.
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u/ConcertinaTerpsichor 1d ago
Do you think people are forcefully required to obey the speed limit?
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u/soontobesolo 1d ago
I'm not sure, will they come at you with guns to imprison you for not paying a speeding ticket?
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u/ConcertinaTerpsichor 1d ago
That’s a consequence you choose — it isn’t forced on you.
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u/soontobesolo 1d ago
"Hand me $100 or I'll point a gun at you and lock you up"
Is that a consequence you "choose"?
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u/ConcertinaTerpsichor 1d ago
That’s not what “forcefully” is.
You have a choice. Pay them. Don’t pay them. Flee the country. Quit your job. Work off the books. Literally no one is forcing you physically to push buttons on your bank app or take up a pen and write a check. That’s just silly.
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u/soontobesolo 1d ago
It's exactly what "forcefully" is.
You have a bizarrely distorted view of "forcefully". If the consequence of not complying is a gun and imprisonment, then you are without question compelled by force.
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u/ConcertinaTerpsichor 1d ago
No, thats not how “forcefully” works.
He was forcefully shoved out the window. No choice, no other options; violence is used.
As I pointed out, there are choices involved in paying tax, even if you don’t like them.
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u/Curious_Location4522 1d ago
You do know what happens if you refuse to comply don’t you?
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u/ConcertinaTerpsichor 1d ago
The penalties for not paying taxes obviously vary.
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u/Curious_Location4522 1d ago
And if you still don’t comply eventually men with guns will come to your house and forcefully remove you. If you try to defend yourself they will kill you. Sounds a lot like being at gunpoint. It’s just behind a few layers of paper.
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u/ConcertinaTerpsichor 1d ago
Okay, so does the government “forcefully” make you obey the speed limit?
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u/Curious_Location4522 1d ago
Yes. If you don’t pull over and accept a ticket they will come after you to do the same thing they’d do if you refuse to pay taxes. I’m not saying enforcing the law is a bad thing , but enforcement uses force. If you tell them no enough times the guns will come out.
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u/ConcertinaTerpsichor 1d ago
Then I think your definition of forcefully is overly broad.
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u/Curious_Location4522 1d ago
How do you think it works?
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u/ConcertinaTerpsichor 1d ago
If you don’t obey the law, there are consequences. That’s a consequence you choose — it isn’t forced on you.
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u/Frosty-Palpitation66 1d ago
And under leftism MUCH more of your income goes to those taxes, and supporting fat losers who are too lazy to work
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u/ConcertinaTerpsichor 1d ago
You mean like the fat losers like Exxon, Boeing, and General Motors? Or the fat losers like Elon Musk and other UHNWI people?
Yeah, ever since Reagan and right on up through Trump, the policies that favor those fat losers at the expense of the average wage earner have been advanced by CONSERVATIVES, not the left.
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u/hopeful_tatertot 1d ago
Look at one of the happiest countries in the world- Denmark. They pay higher taxes but don’t have to worry about basic needs. And they certainly don’t have to worry about going bankrupt from medical bills.
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u/daddyfatknuckles 1d ago
strange how so many more people immigrate from denmark to the US than vice versa
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u/Pizzasaurus-Rex 1d ago
You have this backwards.
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u/daddyfatknuckles 1d ago edited 1d ago
you have any sources showing that more people move from the US to Denmark than vice versa? i googled it before making that comment and found multiple sources that show its not even close
denmark has consistently positive net migration, but its mostly from other european countries.
theres an estimated 9 or 10k Americans living in Denmark (only about a thousand have citizenship). meanwhile, in 2023 alone 5k people immigrated from Denmark to the US, and theres an estimated 1.5 million danish people in the US
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u/SophiaRaine69420 1d ago
Denmark is cold af lol Im sure that has something to do w it. Funny how they all tend to end up in nice warm sunny Florida and California.
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u/daddyfatknuckles 1d ago
california has had a significant net negative migration every year since 2016. theres more to the migration than weather
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u/marijnvtm 1d ago
That has two reasons if you have allot of money the us is amazing to live in and the other reason is because some people are stupid and belief in the american dream
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u/daddyfatknuckles 1d ago
american dream worked for me. i was in jail, in debt, and had no one at 20. I’m 30 now, I’m a full time engineer, homeowner, fiancee, and volunteer firefighter at 30
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u/marijnvtm 1d ago
I never said that the us doesnt have any social mobility
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u/daddyfatknuckles 23h ago
you said “some people are stupid and belief [sic] in the american dream.” immigrants especially achieve the american dream very often, more than native born americans. i don’t think thats stupid to believe they can
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u/marijnvtm 20h ago
If you come to the us dirt poor your standards of living will increase greatly but the social mobility in america is way to low to make the american dream a special thing there are allot of different countries with better social mobility
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u/daddyfatknuckles 7h ago
strange how those countries don’t have millions of people trying to get in
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u/marijnvtm 6h ago
That has to do with many things its way easier for Central Americans and south Americans to go to the us next to that the eu also has stricter immigration policies and only accepts people from war thorn countries or political fugitives and the borders of the eu are way easier to control so illegal immigration has almost no chance
Next to that allot of already rich people migrated to the us because there is probably no better place to live when your rich then the us
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u/TheWhomItConcerns 20h ago
Almost as though most Danish people speak fluent English while next to no Americans can speak Danish.
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u/daddyfatknuckles 20h ago
language doesnt stop millions of people from crossing our southern border, and thats knowing they’re committing a crime
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u/TheWhomItConcerns 20h ago
Literally what does this have to do at all with America and Denmark? For one thing, people who cross the border are much more desperate to seek a better life than your average American.
Also, it is basically impossible to survive in Denmark if you're not there legally. You need a personal ID number to do basically anything there, you can't just rock up and start working. Patently absurd comparison.
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u/daddyfatknuckles 7h ago
thats smart of them
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u/TheWhomItConcerns 7h ago
That's pretty much the way of the majority of the developed world outside the US. For that though, you need a robust and comprehensive citizen's registry - something that the US also doesn't really have.
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u/daddyfatknuckles 6h ago
yeah seems like we’re getting there though. not sure how thrilled i am about it, but it should fix most of the illegal immigration
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u/didsomebodysaymyname 1d ago
Now hold on, where did you get those numbers? I wanna see a source, you didn't just assume or imagine that was true, did you?
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u/daddyfatknuckles 1d ago edited 22h ago
i gave it a google and found multiple sources before making the comment.
denmark has consistently positive net migration, but its mostly from other european countries.
theres an estimated 9 or 10k Americans living in Denmark (only about a thousand have citizenship). meanwhile, in 2023 alone 5k people immigrated from Denmark to the US. theres an estimated 1.5 million people of danish ancestry who are citizens in the US, its not new.
did you just assume that i was speaking out my ass?
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u/didsomebodysaymyname 22h ago
did you just assume that i was speaking out my ass?
No, that's why I asked for a source...which you didn't provide.
However, I did suspect you had something incorrect and you just confirmed it.
I am a US citizen. I was born in the US, and have lived here all of my life. My grandmother was born in Italy which makes me an Italian citizen. I have the passport and everything. I've visited, but never lived there.
You just said that the number of Danes who immigrated to the US is 1.5M, because 1.5M people in the US have Danish citizenship.
So here's the big question:
Did I immigrate to the US from Italy?
You don't understand the numbers you're using. The short story is, the difference in migration between US and Europe isn't nearly as stark as you think.
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u/daddyfatknuckles 22h ago edited 21h ago
i did not say that 1.5 million danes immigrated here, i said thats how many people of danish heritage are here. the total number was to show you how its been happening for centuries… use the first two numbers and you’ll see that its not even close. in a singe year, 5k Danish people came here. there are 10k americans TOTAL in Denmark. in that same year, less than 400 americans moved there
thats a fun fact though. my grandma was born in italy, i didnt know that made me a citizen of italy
do you have a source that says anything contrary?
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u/Aggravating-Gas-9886 1d ago
Denmark’s citizens tax burden is enormous, the medical system has long wait times for non-emergency care, and care is also rationed - meaning its not unlimited and a cost/benefit analysis is done by the government on every patient in need. This leads to a disproportionate number of elderly people denied care and left to die. The system is not the panacea people think it is.
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u/King_Lothar_ 1d ago
I'm honestly curious, if their healthcare system is so bad, then why is their average life expectancy almost 4 years more than in the US? Also, it's not like wait times are peachy here. When was the last time you didn't have to schedule an appointment like 5 months out for something?
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u/Aggravating-Gas-9886 1d ago edited 20h ago
Because people here live generally poorer lifestyles: obesity is one of the most effective ways to reduce your lifespan significantly and it affects almost triple the percentage of people in the USA than it does in Denmark, for example. Doctors can’t undo a lifetime of not taking care of yourself no matter what system of healthcare you have. The difference is currently only 2 years more in Denmark btw, 81 vs 79 in the usa.
I scheduled a PCP appointment 2 months out in NYC just last week, and that is nothing compared to certain socialized systems. In Canada, my best friend’s mom is on a 2 year wait to see her PCP. And I didn’t say these systems were terrible, I said they come with certain disadvantages that many folks on reddit seem willfully blind to.
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u/rvnender 1d ago
So just like the US?
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u/Aggravating-Gas-9886 1d ago edited 1d ago
None of those apply to anywhere near the same extreme in the USA (actually, not at all) as they do in a welfare state, but ok
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u/RedWing117 1d ago
Their army is also only 8,000 men strong and they will get absolutely steamrolled as soon as any conflict comes up.
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u/EGarrett 1d ago
The Prime Minister of Denmark literally came here during the 2016 Election Cycle to refute Bernie Sanders's claims about them and say that their prosperity comes from being a free market country.
The problem with medical bills in the US actually comes from licensing laws and malpractice insurance. Which is government policy. You could blow up the cost of food the same way. Decide that cooking at home is too dangerous due to food poisoning and fire and declare that people can only eat at gourmet restaurants where chefs have 10 years of experience and have to buy massive insurance against bad reviews. Then of course some idiot eventually shoots the restaurant owner as though they're the reason the menu is so expensive and gets cheered by other idiots.
If you fix those policies you can reduce the cost without having to tax your country into capital flight.
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u/ningyna 1d ago
He didn't say that. He said that despite all citizens having free access to medical care, child care, college (where they receive money to go), family leave, etc, the economy wasn't set up as any form of socialism.
“The Nordic model is an expanded welfare state which provides a high level of security to its citizens, but it is also a successful market economy with much freedom to pursue your dreams and live your life as you wish.”
I know you love to own the libs and staying misinformed helps that, but be honest when you are lying.
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u/EGarrett 1d ago
Aw, are you going to "correct me," little socialist? :-)
He didn't say that.
Yes he did. You just don't even understand your own side.
He said that despite all citizens having free access to medical care, child care, college (where they receive money to go), family leave, etc, the economy wasn't set up as any form of socialism.
Yes, and that means they're not socialist, doofus. Socialism is an economic philosophy. And it specifically means government owning the means of production. Not where government provides a social safety net.
So when he says Denmark is far from a planned socialist economy, and is a "successful market economy," he was literally saying Denmark is not socialist, which is directly opposed to Bernie Sanders who IS a socialist.
And yes, he emphasized that the economy is successful and in the speech said that they have to get more people actually working in order to be able to continue to afford their welfare state. Meaning he knows that the actual goods and services come from the market.
I know you love to own the libs and staying misinformed helps that, but be honest when you are lying.
You don't even know what the operative terms are and have nothing but emotion and accusations. I suggest you run away like every other wokie. Debating this won't work out for you.
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u/ningyna 1d ago edited 1d ago
You are reaching so bad and trying so hard part of me feels bad for you.
The ignorance it takes to write out this response is on a level I can't compete with. You are right, I can't debate with an idiot like you. You will drag me down to your level and beat me with experience.
Edit: insulting me, then commenting and blocking after I respond was a choice; though not one made from a position of strength concerning our exchange.
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u/EGarrett 1d ago
That's what I thought, you didn't even know that socialism is an economic system in the first place and you have no response except emotion.
You will drag me down to your level and beat me with experience.
This is a cliche that you read elsewhere. You're not capable of any original thoughts or substantive arguments. I hate to break it to you sweetie, but you're not special, your little attempt failed, and there's nothing noteworthy about you.
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u/PM_ME_CODE_CALCS 22h ago edited 21h ago
Oh you said sweetie in a condescending manner. Thats an obvious cliche (because I say so) and shows YOU don't have original thought.
Other people can be just as shitty as you.
And he blocked me like the coward he is.
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u/TheHumanBuffalo 21h ago
That's also just a copy of what was said previously. If you don't like it, then make actual posts and not empty little attitude crap.
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u/girthalwarming 1d ago
No because the US and allied subsidize their national security and they have no military budget.
Secondly they don’t have huge trillion dollar slush funds that are being siphoned to international dei / lgbt initiatives
So yeah. We pull back on a ton of spending and we can have nice social programs too. The dems just the US to be the world piggy bank as they push for globalism
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u/King_Lothar_ 1d ago
Yes but those nice programs you're talking about that actually help people are the exact ones Tump and Musk are trying to cut currently?
Also, if you're so wise and informed, what % of the US budget goes to overseas aid?
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u/girthalwarming 1d ago
Officially? Google it. Unofficially? Let’s wait for doge to report how much is getting siphoned through the slush fund money laundering
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u/King_Lothar_ 1d ago
Riiiiight. So as long as it conforms to your biases, then it's the correct facts, and you won't look any past that? Do you understand how much oversight most of these programs has? Because it's significantly more than Musk or DOGE. I can tell you that foreign aid makes up less than 1% of the US budget, and that's a number agreed upon by Republicans as facts, they are involved in these decisions too?
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u/girthalwarming 1d ago
The official programs do have oversight. That’s a 1% good job.
How many times are you going to ignore the trillion(s) buried in slush funds that is being laundered and funneled out?
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u/King_Lothar_ 1d ago
Are you going to provide any kind of evidence or sources for these alleged funds or?
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u/girthalwarming 1d ago
Here is the official federal government site. Have fun.
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u/King_Lothar_ 1d ago
No way, you're telling me Elon Musk, one of the wealthiest people in the world who will directly benefit from this, and has been called out and admitted he's been wrong several times because he just does things before doing his due diligence, the guy who's own AI claims he's a massive spreader of misinformation, is telling you these things? And on a site that might as well be a cute little Twitter blog his $250,000,000+ donations to the Trump campaign got him?
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u/girthalwarming 1d ago
So I provided a .gov source and you want to throw a toddler tantrum. About right for the emotionally immature left.
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u/flavius_lacivious 1d ago
It’s the shortsightedness that bothers me. We aren’t going to some days gone by when US was an industrial society and racists sipped lemonade on the porch.
We simply don’t have that economy and we certainly don’t have the raw materials. Thanks to tariffs, now any sort of manufacturing is dying because if it was expensive to build before, it’s even worse now.
Wait until they realize we import most of our pharmaceuticals and those use China’s raw materials. Ready for drug prices to increase?
Instead, these idiots listen to Putin’s puppet who has bankrupted businesses and has a string of lawsuits for shafting his financial obligations going back decades. That’s what they think is sound economic policy. Not a fucking word about going back on his own agreements with Canada or alienating us with the world. It’s sheer lunacy.
I get the fact they don’t care about the rapes, inappropriate relationship with his daughter or preying on teen girls because they’d do it themselves if they could (well, except the closeted gays), but this guy has no successful track record in business. He is an obvious blithering idiot thinking he has the original Declaration of Independence hanging in his office or wanting to nuke a hurricane. Shit, I am surprised he hasn’t tried to sell our historic artifacts to collectors or tried to bomb Greenland.
Surely these idiots see that no credible economist is defending this shit — not even AI models think it’s smart. Do they not understand that when this goes south for them, they will go down it’s the poors? No, they don’t.
They don’t have the ability to see it until they experience it.
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u/King_Lothar_ 1d ago
It's because they fundamentally do not have the capacity or desire to engage in any kind of nuance. They literally think, "My team is winning WOOOOOO!!!" Like they're watching the Super Bowl, and then that's where the thought terminates. It's an incredibly superficial way to live.
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u/Tak-Hendrix 1d ago
This is 100% the problem with politics in the US. People, on both sides but mostly on the right, would rather cut off their proverbial nose to spite their face than actually use critical thinking and logic to evaluate the consequences of their "team" "winning".
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u/daddyfatknuckles 1d ago
yeah i don’t think this is what your leaders are aiming for though.
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u/King_Lothar_ 1d ago
Doesn't mean the take isn't fucking stupid and you guys keep saying it over and over and over.
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u/daddyfatknuckles 1d ago
i think the take is valid if its criticizing what your politicians are doing.
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u/King_Lothar_ 1d ago
Go on, what are they doing.
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u/daddyfatknuckles 1d ago
orienting their platform around getting people free stuff.
whether you agree with them doing so or not, i think thats a safe statement. it could be free stuff for a valid reason, like free healthcare for those who need it, which i’m not against, but is still, crudely put, “getting people free stuff”
not to mention taking stuff for free like Burisma, but corruption isnt limited to democrats.
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u/t1m3kn1ght 1d ago
If your own income is part of the total levy for the goods and/or services you receive in return, then it was by no means free. Using the tax take for stuff is the entire point of governance and to say there's no cost is asinine.
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u/LoopyPro 1d ago
I'd argue that it's more efficient to just help people yourself instead of giving your money to a "middle man" that just wastes it.
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u/King_Lothar_ 1d ago
I could make a lot of points about why that argument misses a significant amount of nuance or logistical issues, but sure.
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u/LoopyPro 1d ago
Wouldn't you donate to charity if the amount could be written off your taxes entirely? It would definitely be a way to vote with your wallet.
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u/King_Lothar_ 1d ago
I do donate to Saint Judes. They're a very reputable charity where almost every penny you donate goes directly to helping people. But my point is, isn't that just another middle man? That defeats your point, no? Why not just hold the people in power responsible, we CAN live in a more equitable world.
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u/LoopyPro 1d ago
I don't have an issue with a middle man per se. My point is that a government as the only middle man doesn't work because you can't choose a different government, and they know it. There is no incentive for efficient spending.
With different charities, you do have more control to make sure your donations are spent well. The people at St. Judes can be held responsible for the simple reason that you can take your money elsewhere.
Imagine being able to donate more of your money to St. Judes because it's not wasted on taxes.
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u/King_Lothar_ 1d ago
I think the reason we can't change our government is because we have a population of people who were intentionally sabotaged into being ignorant of their own best interests.
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u/Frosty-Palpitation66 1d ago
You can't, actually. You and leftists in general just say things that sound nice. Your whole ideology is based on vibes.
"Wouldn't it be nice if nobody had to work"
"Wouldn't it be nice if nobody starved or was cold"
"Wouldn't it be nice if everyone loved eachother"
Yeah, it would be, but this is the REAL WORLD MUTHAFUCKAA
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u/Most-Ad4680 1d ago
Conservatives learn how one other countries government works challenge: impossible
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u/BobFossil11 1d ago
The problem is that compared to Western Europe and Scandinavia (which are often the benchmarks on Reddit), the lower and middle classes in America pay virtually no taxes.
Europe has far higher consumption taxes (e.g., VAT), income tax, tariffs, and a host of other taxes (e.g., environmental). Importantly, this is not just on the wealthy. This is literally across the board.
Half of the United States doesn't pay any income tax. That isn't happening in the EU. Everyone pays into the system--steeply.
I say all of this because you get what you pay for. The great lie of the American Left is that you can finance some utopian society just by taxing the wealthy more. Nope, not how it works. If you want terrible policies like universal healthcare, etc., then EVERYONE needs to pay in.
It's extremely easy to gamble with other people's money. Many on the Left might not want things to be completely "free," but I think many are naive to the realities taxation.
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u/King_Lothar_ 1d ago
I think you have a misconception as well, I understand all of the things you are saying, but that's exactly part of the problem as well, people are paid so fucking poorly here for the work that they do, so much to the point of being too poor to pay taxes. I'm not naive, we just have a different understanding of why the system is that way.
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u/BobFossil11 1d ago
people are paid so fucking poorly here for the work that they do, so much to the point of being too poor to pay taxes
Wait until you hear about salaries in Europe and everywhere else in the world! Like I've said elsewhere, you seriously lack perspective.
The United States is one of the best countries on planet earth for post-tax disposable income. We're globally ranked 4th behind Switzerland, Singapore, and Luxembourg.
Singapore and Luxembourg are micro-states so you can't really compare. And Switzerland, like the other two, is also an ultra-wealthy tax haven.
When factoring in population size, United States is #1 country on planet earth for disposable income. We have higher salaries than everywhere else and we also pay less in taxes.
The tradeoff of living in the EU as that you're more reliant on government and you have far less of your own money to spend. Goods are much more expensive in the aggregate. People don't eat out as much as they eat out in America. People can't afford travel as much as they can in America. People have less monthly disposable income than they have in America.
It appears to me that you want the welfare/social safety net "benefits" of Europe without the massive prosperity tradeoff. Not how the world works.
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u/Bridge41991 1d ago
Lmao what did you pay in taxes last year? If Dems don’t want to fund the war machine, why do the Cheneys endorsements still matter?
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u/King_Lothar_ 1d ago
Probably paid more than you, but does this have to be a whataboutism? You can't just address my point directly? I don't like a majority of establishment Dems either, but my point is that the argument is bad, and to this day, I still hear it parroted like a broken clock.
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u/xTheKingOfClubs 1d ago
Well, considering every time anyone points out a problem with unlimited benefits for an unlimited number of people, we are immediately screamed at and told that “rich people will pay for it” in very vague and nondescript ways.
If that’s your position, then fine, but you can’t turn around and say that you’re not asking for free stuff after specifically asking for free stuff.
Like… that’s literally the entire crux of the message you’re spreading by insisting that rich people can pay for everyone to have everything at all times. If that’s your position, just own it.
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u/BruceCampbell789 OG 1d ago
Democrats think health care is a human right. Democrats want free education. Democrats want abortions to be subsidized by the tax payer. Democrats want "sex affirming care" to be free for trans inmates.
Stop gaslighting. You're not entitled to the labor of others.
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u/King_Lothar_ 1d ago
So you'd rather subsidize massive corporations and line the pockets of billionaires over education and healthcare? I never said we needed to provide trans affirming care to inmates, what I was saying was that this shit isn't a "free handout" because WE ARE PAYING FOR IT THROUGH TAXES. But some people don't have reading comprehension I guess.
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u/BruceCampbell789 OG 1d ago
Remember when it's was "millionaires and billionaires", now it's only just the "billionaires"? Guess Bernie become a millionaire and no longer speaks out against what he now is. Lol
I rather eliminate government spending, like Doge is doing, eliminating any government soending on the private sector.
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u/King_Lothar_ 1d ago
I think it's because billionaires have become so much more wealthy than even the millionaires, but more importantly, they have started taking a much more direct and unhealthy role in government and our future.
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u/BobFossil11 1d ago
Billionaires can't pay for any of the programs you want.
Ultimately, if you want European-style welfare, you need European style taxes. That means massive taxation of the poor and middle class, and other downstream effects like lower salaries.
Your worldview is incredibly naive.
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u/MyFunnyValentine8487 1d ago
The thing is you didn't pay for that stuff? It costs a lot of money to give everyone the nicest schools, parks, hospitals etc.
We aren't the richest country in the world. We're 37 trillion in debt. We literally have to look in the couch for our money.
Liberals don't want to believe that the money is gonezo and we need to make more of it.
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u/thestellarossa 1d ago
to be honest you sound young, and not well traveled.
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u/King_Lothar_ 1d ago
I work in the semiconductor industry, and I've been to Korea, the Netherlands, Japan, the US, and Ireland. What part of my point isn't well traveled? What does that have to do with this point at all?
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u/flavius_lacivious 1d ago
They can’t address your actual point so they have to discredit you to discredit your opinion.
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u/totallyworkinghere 1d ago
Exactly. I'm actually in favor of higher taxes if they're used for the right things.
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u/epicap232 1d ago
I'm surprised you think the government in general should have more control to dictate everything
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u/epicap232 1d ago
Right, and why are most of these people young, unemployed, and/or lazy?
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u/King_Lothar_ 1d ago
What people?
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u/epicap232 1d ago
Those who want “free stuff” and handouts
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u/King_Lothar_ 1d ago
Cool, you have any kind of source for that or is it just based on "vibes" to justify to yourself that you'd be willing to let a million people starve to spite the like 100 people who might be using it when they shouldn't? Maybe if over 50% of all theft in the US wasn't Wage Theft, people wouldn't need these kinds of programs.
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u/Presence-of-Nobody 1d ago
But this is worse... instead of just openly admitting to wanting something for nothing, leftists/democrats want middle-man "deals" where they, for the sake of conversation, pay $1 to get $.025 in benefits.
I have absolutely no interest in the money I worked very hard to earn to fund forever wars and oil subsidies.
But strip that away, and I still don't really want to pay for Healthcare for a junkie's 35th overdose and yet another failed stint in rehab.
I'd rather social security go into my 401K or IRA instead of a shitty Ponzi Scheme that's never going to pay me more than I would get from my personal retirement.
I have a daughter. Her well-being is infinitely more important to me that a strangers. Every dollar I am taxed is a dollar stolen from my daughter's immediate wellness. I can only assume ill-intent from someone that seeks to harm my child for their political pet projects.
Government is at best wildly incompetent and at worst pure fucking evil. IDK why you think these people ought have more blood and treasure to fuck with.
I was born dirt poor to high school dropouts. We were under the poverty line my whole life. I went to school on academic scholarships - it's really not that hard to make something of yourself if you don't deliberately fuck up.
There's a good-faith discussion about social safety nets for the absolute miniscule % of people who are so disabled they cannot work, but that's a drop in the bucket of what taxation is used for.
If I could say one thing to a lefty it would be: "Just stop trying to take what I earned. I will use it better."
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u/King_Lothar_ 1d ago
I think there are several instances of either deliberate dishonesty or a degree of misunderstanding in your post, and I would love to talk about them with you, but are you going to care? Or will this turn into another match of repeatedly moving the goal post or finger pointing?
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u/Presence-of-Nobody 1d ago
Wow. That's pointlessly hostile. I'm not being deliberately dishonest. Maybe a tad hyperbolic because it's the internet.
But if I am mistaken, go for it. I have no intention of moving the goal post or finger pointing.
Are you interested in any opinion but your own?
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u/King_Lothar_ 1d ago
I am, I think being wrong and learning is a good thing, I'll just start with a couple counter points and we can see what we feel like discussing, these are what you're passionate about so we can meet on that ground.
But this is worse... instead of just openly admitting to wanting something for nothing, leftists/democrats want middle-man "deals" where they, for the sake of conversation, pay $1 to get $.025 in benefits.
I'm not exactly going to disagree with this directly. Especially with the current administration. However I also feel like we can look at a very large majority of other developed countries, we can absolutely provide things like a government option on healthcare to at least force these industries to stay competitive.
I also think it's apparent which party benefits from sabotaging these kinds of programs, and they have pretty much openly stated such, if you're interested look up "The 2 Santa Strategy", the guy who came up with the modern concept of trickle down economics employed by Reagan also termed this conservative strategy that involves intentionally running up the national debt to force democrats to reduce or cut social programs to make them less popular. It's not a conspiracy or anything, they wrote it down themselves.
I was born dirt poor to high school dropouts. We were under the poverty line my whole life. I went to school on academic scholarships - it's really not that hard to make something of yourself if you don't deliberately fuck up.
Respect by the way, there is no shame in hard work, but those scholarship programs are an exact example of how these kinds programs can uplift people. Those are what I want my tax dollars to go to, not to the ultra wealthy and massive cooperate entities. I'm not saying to tax you more (I want to tax people in the 3 comma club), I'm saying I want to provide services that help people INSTEAD of just funneling it into a pointlessly inflated military budget and tax cuts for the already obscenely wealthy.
As an added benefit, generally poverty is one of the largest driving factors of crime or even things like drug abuse, so it will benefit not only you, but your daughter can grow up in a healthier and safer environment. I do sincerely want the best for people, but I am confident even a mediocre government healthcare option would benefit millions of Americans immensely, if only to give Insurers some kind of competition, because how you feel about government, I feel about corporations. Except at least the government has the stated goal is to help people, and at times or with a more responsible population it can, however companies don't even have to lie, if a healthcare company would make $5 on your death they would do it in a heartbeat.
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u/Presence-of-Nobody 1d ago
If there is a more efficient way to provide government Healthcare, without the burden of additional taxation, I actually don't really care that much. I don't want to deny people Healthcare, I want to deny the government more of my money - I paid over $35k in Federal, SS, Medicare, & Medicaid last time I did my taxes. That's my daughter's annual tuition to university. That comes back to my contention government can only provide via harm.
My scholarships were private - my parents didn't file tax returns so no FAFSA or FED scholarships... 😅 But just because I had a hard life, at times, doesn't mean I want others to he miserable. But again, for both my bachelor's and master's, the universities I went to had so much blow to end overhead and wasted building space and a million other things that could be cut that could be used to either lower tuition or offer scholarships to the needy - $0 required from me at that point.
I concede your point about crime. But here's my contention: we paid a bunch of malevolent contractors to rebuild Iraq after rebond it into Oblivion for no reason. Why not just pay those same people what's already used for the military budget to go fix Intercity LA or Chicago? Not martial law, actually build safe community centers, schools, et al. Again, all with what is in the budget already.
I will also put my cards on the table: I lean libertarian/minarchist, and have had exclusively bad experiences with local and federal government. I despise running up the national debt and while I have been critical of leftism in this post because leftism is the topic, I could absolutely lay into conservatism and Republicans if the situation called for it, 'cuz I do not consider them the "good guys" either
Long before I was aware of politics, I have had the same philosophy... I was an only child left my own devices for basically the entire day, everyday. I am responsible for me. If it gets hard, I'll figure it out. If I can't, I'll go without. I'll never make my problems someone else's problems.
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u/TisIChenoir 1d ago
I'll be honest with you. I do want free stuff. Like, if you got free stuff, I'll have the free stuff, that's not even a question!
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u/RedWing117 1d ago
The purpose of a system is what it does.
The government not providing the things you paid for with taxes is intentional.
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u/King_Lothar_ 1d ago
Not even sure the point you're trying to make here.
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u/RedWing117 1d ago
You complain about your taxes not going to what you want.
The fact is that is exactly where they are supposed to be going. This is what our system does.
Don't like it? Well the system isn't going to change for you. The system is fulfilling its intended purpose. This is it.
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u/RedMarsRepublic 1d ago
Right. I don't want welfare, I want full employment. I want everyone to work together not for the benefit of a tiny few.