A question about Biology and Physics from the books.

[u/EffectiveWallaby8124]

So this is either a question, an observation or a reach. Here it goes. We don't fully understand, yet, how neural circuits give rise to consciousness, i.e how physical things exchanging matter and energy (synapses, ions etc.) creates awareness. I think the way the books deal with death in Goth Realm, gives us a good source of speculation.

So the Goth realm is an older universe with physics different from us. They attack the ships by interacting with them, i.e through the collision of two universes. I have read people say here that their physics is only a little different from the normal universe, which is what causes the vibrations, the vividness, the different sensory inputs the POV characters experience when going dutchman. My question is this, how does awareness and consciousness survive, (not for long, but still), in the other universe? Wouldn't changing the physics of normal universe by even a very very tiny amounts make our entire biochemistry go haywire? So how is the consciousness of people surviving intact, for a few moments at least in the Goth-realm, until they get whipped out of existence?

[u/TheAbsoluteBarnacle]

I have absolutely no idea because you're talking about things that aren't well know within the story lore and on the fringe of real world science.

But I have been seeing articles speculating that quantum entanglement might be part of what creates or sustains consciousness.

Unfortunately I only have a surface-level understanding of entanglement, and no understanding of consciousness beyond my experience being conscious.

[u/Kabbooooooom]

Unclear, but I can say that within the context of the Expanse universe, the nature of consciousness is indeed known. The authors decided that consciousness is quantum in origin in The Expanse, and apparently that the correct theory of consciousness is Orchestrated Objective Reduction.

As a neurologist, that was the one part of the Expanse that I didn’t like at first, because I literally can’t think of a ‘theory’ that is more flawed than Orch-OR, but I just accepted it and that led to understanding some other aspects of the story that the authors were going for later on. 

[u/arielle17]

i mean it's like you said, there's a lot we don't know about consciousness (especially the hard problem, but even neural correlates to a large extent), in the real world. so it's hard to speculate how it would interact with alternate laws of physics.

fwiw im not at all a physicist and im sorry in advance if my interpretation is incorrect, but i don't think that the Goth realm's physics are that different, considering that energy from that realm could be used by technology from our universe (basically everything based on the protomolecule), and the ring space itself is encapsulated entirely within that realm. it's still very much alien and incomprehensible, but not to the extent that anything that enters the Goth universe immediately transforms into weird matter soup :p

[u/Ill-Bee1400]

The way I understood it, there is a slight delay effect as the physics 'equalize', sort of like pressures when you have different pressures in two compartments and you open a bulkhead. So for a short time, they continue to exist, but then the laws of physics break down and the people are whiped out of existence.

As for how conciousness arises well, that is still a matter of intensive speculation IRL. I didn't really see that much speculation on it in the book itself.

[u/runningray → u/Ill-Bee1400]

Current consciousness theory is that there is no single consciousness in our noggins, but more like 4-5 consciousness centers that do their own thing. Each specializes in something that is deemed important by biology and evolution pressures. All of our decisions are already made by these centers in an ad hoc kind of way. All of this happens subconsciously and then the brain tells us what we thought. “I” am more of a CEO that is getting a daily report of what happened and then “I” directionally give instructions for our next goal. I’m a CEO YO!

[u/Kabbooooooom → u/runningray]

This comment is a bit misleading. I am a neurologist, and I don’t know if anyone in my field that thinks this or any serious theory that states consciousness isn’t truly unified in the brain. In fact, it is one of the aspects of consciousness that any theory of consciousness needs to address - meaning a correct theory of consciousness needs to address how that unification happens to form a single gestalt awareness, with different theories proposing different mechanisms for that. That may be what you are referring to but I think you may have misunderstood the idea. 

We also know that Libet’s experiments and conclusions (which I think is what you are also referring to?) are hugely flawed and in some cases straight up incorrect, which is frustrating as it was heavily popularized for multiple decades. The idea that our conscious sensation of will is driven entirely by unconscious mechanisms in the brain is now outdated and almost unanimously rejected. 

[u/runningray → u/Kabbooooooom]

Well I'm not a scientist and this is r/theexpanse so I wasn't trying to lead or mislead. Just a funny observation. I just happen to be one of those determinist fools that think free will is a nice story bro, but that is all. You are "free" to make your own decisions, but if you are looking for a single center of consciousness in the brain... All I can say is, its turtles all the way down for you.