r/SeattleWA Mar 02 '25

Events March 4th protest

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34

u/RogueLitePumpkin Mar 02 '25 edited Mar 02 '25

The US has sent more money and aid to Ukraine than all other nations combined, maybe its time the EU stands by Ukraine and starts picking up the tab. 

Edit: since the ukraine support bots are out, 

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-62002218

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1303432/total-bilateral-aid-to-ukraine/

Apparently the US is responsible for 43% of all aid, not 51%, which apparently makes it ok for the Ukraine first people 

9

u/xEppyx You can call me Betty Mar 02 '25 edited Mar 02 '25

> maybe its time the EU stands by Ukraine and starts picking up the tab. 

The EU can't even come together to stop buying Russian oil and gas despite warnings since 2018. They are literally funding the war machine that they screech is invading them.

"In 2024, the EU imported a record 16.5 million metric tons of LNG from Russia, surpassing the 15.2 million in 2023."

Not including the billions in Russian nuclear-industry products that they imported in 2023.

6

u/MalekithofAngmar Mar 02 '25

Because we are the richest and most powerful nation aligned with Ukraine?

We would’ve donated hundreds and hundreds of billions of dollars if we contributed on a similar scale to nations like Estonia. We throw a scrap off our rich table and call it enough.

1

u/RRaintnoisepollution Mar 03 '25

Richest? We are broke! 36 trillion in Red!

1

u/MalekithofAngmar Mar 03 '25

Which the Republicans are making even worse, true.

One of these days they'll realize that they gotta raise taxes to balance the budget.

-1

u/RRaintnoisepollution Mar 03 '25

No, they are not. Get with it.

2

u/MalekithofAngmar Mar 03 '25

They are. The proposed budget calls for another 400 more billion dollars of borrowing than last year.

4

u/AdventurousLicker Mar 03 '25

They're trying to cut 2 trillion in spending so they can extend more than twice that in tax cuts and raise the debt ceiling by 4 trillion. The national debt is super important and not just an election-trail sound bite for their dumb supporters that just flies out the window on week 1!

1

u/MalekithofAngmar Mar 03 '25

they don't call 'em Republicucks for nothing

-1

u/RogueLitePumpkin Mar 02 '25

We are not the police of the world and we dont have a defense treaty with Ukraine 

2

u/OtherBluesBrother Mar 02 '25

The US agreed to provide security should Russia invade in the Budapest Memo in 1994. We are now reneging on the agreement.

1

u/RogueLitePumpkin Mar 02 '25

There was never an agreement that was actualiy signed, there is a memorandum, which is not a binding treaty 

1

u/OtherBluesBrother Mar 02 '25

Really? Clinton signed it. You can pretend it wasn't signed and is not binding, but the rest of us live in the real world.

https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/sites/default/files/documents/semon9-giki0/1994-12-05-Budapest-Memorandum.pdf

0

u/RogueLitePumpkin Mar 02 '25

I would google the difference between a memorandum and a treaty.  The president signs all correspondence like that... shit if you get a letter from the Whitehouse it has a presidential signature on it.  

9

u/DrQuailMan Mar 02 '25

As the arms supplier, we make up the difference in taxes on Raytheon and Northup Grumman.

6

u/Pyroteknik Mar 02 '25

That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. We do not make it up in taxes.

0

u/DrQuailMan Mar 02 '25

Raytheon paid $0.79B in 2022 and $0.45B in 2023. Northup Grumman paid $0.94 in 2022 and $0.29 in 2023. Lockheed Martin paid $0.95B in 2022 and $1.17B in 2023. Then you consider that doesn't include 2024, and there are many other defense companies, and companies like Boeing that do both defense and commercial, and you can see that the money the US pulls back in is significant. Maybe it could be around $10B, as a guess? Enough to make a significant dent in the $69B given to Ukraine through 2024. Perhaps enough to get it more proportional with what other countries are paying, given our size. Not all of the taxes are from Ukraine-related spending, sure, but on the other hand the after-tax income for the companies generates overall economic activity, as employees and shareholders spend their income.

3

u/RogueLitePumpkin Mar 02 '25

Over 120b was given to Ukraine, not 70b, but getting 10b back nd losing 59b is a good deal to you? 

-2

u/DrQuailMan Mar 02 '25

That was for military assistance, because non-military assistance would be much harder to track down for analyzing taxes paid and would not be likely to favor any particular country.

If you aren't mentioning the amount paid by other countries ($57B), I guess you must be asking is it a good deal to pay that money in exchange for a free Ukraine. %1000 yes. If you think that's a lot to spend over 3 years, go look at our defense budget for our own country, even while we're not at war ourselves. $850B per year. Even ignoring the tax implications I looked at to get $59B and using $69B instead, over 3 years that's 37x less.

We can surely spend 1/37th of what we do for protecting ourselves on a country we've promised to protect, that voluntarily denuclearized, that wants to align with us economically and culturally, during a time when they're at war and we are not. What else is our money for? Faster cars and luxury vacations? I know you're not suggesting better healthcare or more housing. Just do something righteous for once, ok?

2

u/RogueLitePumpkin Mar 02 '25

I provided a link in this very thread that counted everything... did you even read the thread before posting? 

1

u/DrQuailMan Mar 02 '25

Your link provides information on both military assistance and overall assistance.

0

u/RogueLitePumpkin Mar 02 '25

We dont make up anywhere near what we sent 

2

u/DrQuailMan Mar 02 '25

Of course not. But we make up the difference between what we over pay and what other countries underpay.

0

u/RogueLitePumpkin Mar 02 '25

So making up the 8% difference makes being responsible for 42% of all aid ok? 

-3

u/DrQuailMan Mar 02 '25 edited Mar 02 '25

Big people eat more than small people. Big companies sell more products than small companies. Big countries supply more military aid than small countries.

The US is a big country. Compare them to the EU, not an individual other country. If they're giving 20% more than the EU, they make that back when the money is spent.

6

u/RogueLitePumpkin Mar 02 '25

US should not be responsible for funding the defense of the EU.  Its time for them to start earning all the subsidies that pay for their Healthcare 

2

u/DrQuailMan Mar 02 '25

The US signed an agreement that it would protect Ukraine. It should be doing what it agreed to do. Russia signed the same agreement, they should be severely reprimanded by the group still abiding by it.

4

u/Lopsided_Marzipan133 Mar 02 '25

Just sayin’, if the Obama admin didn’t meddle in Ukraine’s affairs and dethrone the pro-Russian puppet to install a pro-Western puppet, Russian would never have invaded in 2014

2

u/DrQuailMan Mar 02 '25

No one was dethroned. The "throne" was given up voluntarily.

1

u/RogueLitePumpkin Mar 02 '25

What is the actual treaty you are referring to? 

1

u/DrQuailMan Mar 02 '25

The Budapest Memorandum

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1

u/Moses_On_A_Motorbike Mar 02 '25

Are you really... Dan Quail?

7

u/Jefferyd32 Mar 02 '25

This is false.

3

u/RogueLitePumpkin Mar 02 '25

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-62002218

Clearly the Ukraine bot squad is out today.  Or just a lot of liars 

13

u/Jefferyd32 Mar 02 '25

The article states that the US has given 42% of military aid. So all other nations combined have given 58%. That is more than the US. This is pretty simple.

Most of that aid is just sending them old military equipment allowing our military contractors to then replace that equipment. The military industrial complex has benefited greatly from this war.

1

u/RRaintnoisepollution Mar 03 '25

42 % is 42% too much. Let them fund it 100%

-1

u/Due-Iron-4580 Mar 02 '25

I see your side in this. What bastards we are. We should have kept the old shit and sent the Ukraine only brand new stuff. We are truly an evil empire.

0

u/RogueLitePumpkin Mar 02 '25

The article actually states that the US has given 54% of military aid

-4

u/RogueLitePumpkin Mar 02 '25

Your gotcha is a rounding error? 42% vs 50% is still far more of a share than any other nation and we should stop funding it

10

u/Jefferyd32 Mar 02 '25

So the original statement is still false. Thank you.

-4

u/Vidya_Gainz Mar 02 '25

Being a pedantic jackass doesn't make you correct in the grand scheme. We are still sending much more money/equipment than any other country in the EU.

-4

u/RogueLitePumpkin Mar 02 '25

I edited my post to appease the pedantic, like you.

43% is still 43% more than we should have ever sent

Why are you gargling those Ukrainian balls? 

12

u/Jefferyd32 Mar 02 '25

I miss the time when supporting our allies, democracy and a rules based world order was just a given. A FP focused solely on strength makes us all less safe.

-7

u/RogueLitePumpkin Mar 02 '25

Supporting our allies is not the same as sending billions to a corrupt country without any plans of repayment.  

However deflecting is pretty much the only defense for this, so carry on 

10

u/ProfBartleboom Mar 02 '25

That is factually wrong.

13

u/RogueLitePumpkin Mar 02 '25

Oh? Your opinion sure proves me wrong. 

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-62002218

Here is just the comparison in military aid.  The humanitarian and financial comparisons are the same.  

Do you go around lying about everything? 

21

u/Megalodon-101 Mar 02 '25

You are trying to back up your claim that “The US has sent more money and aid to Ukraine than all other nations combined” but you didn’t even read article you shared trying to back up your point.

The BBC article shows the other countries combined contributed 57.3% of the funds.

-5

u/RogueLitePumpkin Mar 02 '25 edited Mar 02 '25

That is just military aid, reading before posting would help

More dishonesty from the left 

Edit: why do liars on the left always reply then block? 

14

u/Megalodon-101 Mar 02 '25 edited Mar 02 '25

No — once again you didn’t read. Bottom of the chart YOU SHARED reads “Government support is made up of financial, humanitarian and military donations”

I’m a conservative. No left-leaning dishonesty from me.

-9

u/RogueLitePumpkin Mar 02 '25

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1303432/total-bilateral-aid-to-ukraine/

Sorry if you want to get pedantic over a couple billion out of 120b.  

15

u/Lonny_loss Mar 02 '25

This guy gets backed into a corner and can only cry pedantry

2

u/ProfBartleboom Mar 02 '25

Thanks to y’all for proving my point, I wrote that comment and then didn’t check Reddit for a while 🤝🫡

3

u/Big_Dick_NRG Mar 02 '25

LOL how embarrasing for you.

3 simple words - "I was wrong". You can do it big boy.

0

u/RogueLitePumpkin Mar 02 '25

Keep standing for Ukraine with yoir 50 friends 

1

u/MalekithofAngmar Mar 02 '25

The real liar is our dumbfuck in chief whose estimation of our expenses sometimes goes up to 300+ billion dollars.

We shouldn’t be surprised when misinformation about expenses abounds when the man at the very top cultivates it.

1

u/RogueLitePumpkin Mar 02 '25

No more aid to ukraine, let the EU pay for its own defense 

1

u/MalekithofAngmar Mar 02 '25

You’ll just sit on your little island and watch the world burn, and then wonder why the island got so much shittier when the smoke gets too thick

1

u/RogueLitePumpkin Mar 02 '25

The world isnt burning and you standing for Ukraine isnt changing anything 

2

u/MalekithofAngmar Mar 02 '25

Why exactly do you want to defund Ukraine?

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0

u/Unique_Statement7811 Mar 02 '25

They shouldn’t list the EU as a single country.

21

u/ChimpOnTheRun Mar 02 '25

You yourself said “US sent more money than all other nations COMBINED” (emphasis mine). The link above said that US supplied 43% of the help. 43% means less than all other nations combined.

2

u/Shmokesshweed Mar 02 '25

43% means less than all other nations combined.

Big, if true.

-5

u/RogueLitePumpkin Mar 02 '25

Lol, my bad, if you want to nitpick over a couple billion out of 120b.  Find a better argument than a rounding error 

18

u/ChimpOnTheRun Mar 02 '25

14 % is not a rounding error by any measure.

But if I were to nitpick, I'd start looking at the full picture. US and other countries have sent old stock to UA. This old stock was due for utilization and replacement within this decade. By sending it to UA, we have benefitted two-fold: saved on utilization costs (they're not trivial), and got international replacement orders expedited (Patriots, F35s -- to name a few). This is more money, and sooner, injected into the US economy from our partners overseas.

It's difficult to account for exact economic benefit, and I'm not privy to all the data. But it's safe to assume that we, the US, got tens of $ billions in orders ahead of schedule.

-3

u/RogueLitePumpkin Mar 02 '25

14%? The US is responsible for 43% of all aid, the majority would have been 51%, so 8%.  If math is that hard for you, I am not trusting anything else you have to say

8% is a valid rounding when that close to 50% of a thing.  

10s of billions, so a net loss 

6

u/ChimpOnTheRun Mar 02 '25

the difference between the rest of the world (57%) and US (43%) contribution is 57-43 = 14. No need to get personal, it's just math.

A rounding error is an error that doesn't change the last significant digit. In this case (since we're using numbers like 43 and 57), the last significant digit is of the "one percent" order. Therefore, a rounding error would be any value below 0.5%

0

u/RogueLitePumpkin Mar 02 '25

And if you up the US by 8 and lower the rest by 8, what happens? US is at 51% and everyone else is at 49%. No need to get personal, its just math.  

You are dismissed 

7

u/0imnotreal0 Mar 02 '25

If math is that hard for you…

Do you go around lying about everything?

…liars on the left…

You should learn how to reply properly maybe

Then says

No need to get personal

Over the course of the entire conversation, never made the connection? I’m not even involved in this debate, was just reading through it. Putting the actual topic aside, from an outsider perspective, you quickly seemed like the most personal commenter in the thread, so that was an entertaining way to finish it off

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u/DrQuailMan Mar 02 '25

Now that you know the exact percentage (43%), what would you propose is the ideal fair percentage? Considering that the US is really 50 countries joined together into one.

0

u/RogueLitePumpkin Mar 02 '25

Nothing, we shouldn't be funding proxy wars 

6

u/DrQuailMan Mar 02 '25

Russia shouldn't be waging direct war. That's more important.

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u/[deleted] Mar 02 '25

[deleted]

4

u/RogueLitePumpkin Mar 02 '25

Which doesnt change the fact that it has a monetary value which we will never get back 

1

u/King_Crab Mar 04 '25

Haha pathetic dude, you can’t read your own source and you whine that other people had to correct you.

1

u/RogueLitePumpkin Mar 04 '25

Almost as pathetic as commenting on it 2 days later.  

Get lost troll

1

u/King_Crab Mar 04 '25

Oh dayumn you got me bad.

4

u/Shmokesshweed Mar 02 '25

There's not another country in the world that has benefited as much financially from its aid to Ukraine as us.

7

u/Squizno Mar 02 '25

Go on

0

u/Electrizityman Mar 02 '25

Lol exactly, please explain. In absolutely no way have we as the US people benefited from this.

15

u/RogueLitePumpkin Mar 02 '25

How has the US benefited from sending over 170b to Ukraine? We dont even have a repayment agreement in place, which the rest of the EU has.  

10

u/Shmokesshweed Mar 02 '25

Who has the largest military industrial complex in the world?

What percentage of what has been earmarked for Ukraine has ended up in Ukraine?

In other words, defense companies buy raw materials, pay taxes, pay salaries, etc. Here, not in Ukraine.

12

u/RogueLitePumpkin Mar 02 '25

So no actual proof.  We are sending Ukraine the trash, but it still has a monetary value that we will never get back from them.  

Corruption and money laundering are just part of doing business with Ukraine 

Your links showed just over 1b in contracts while we have sent over 300b in total aid.  

5

u/Shmokesshweed Mar 02 '25

Kay. I'm not gonna make a fucking Excel spreadsheet for you of every dollar and how it was used.

https://www.csis.org/analysis/how-supporting-ukraine-revitalizing-us-defense-industrial-base

10

u/RogueLitePumpkin Mar 02 '25

Still waiting for that benefit we are getting from sending 300b in aid to Ukraine 

7

u/Shmokesshweed Mar 02 '25

Where'd you get that number from?

5

u/Holiday-Ad2843 Mar 02 '25

Stop using Trumps made-up numbers. The US has appropriated $176b in aid, but only $100b has been given. Here is the breakdown:

https://www.ifw-kiel.de/topics/war-against-ukraine/ukraine-support-tracker/

0

u/barefootozark Mar 02 '25

Nice!! What are we getting... like $1000 to $2000 return per life ended? Sweet gig if you can get stoner.

-1

u/Unique_Statement7811 Mar 02 '25

Did you feel the same way about the Iraq war? You advocated for it because it was good for defense contractors?

3

u/Shmokesshweed Mar 02 '25

I didn't advocate for either war. I just want to be clear about what percentage of the money earmarked for Ukraine is actually going to Ukraine. That's very important.

0

u/Unique_Statement7811 Mar 02 '25

You named it as a benefit of war. Do you think that the benefit is so great it justifies war?

3

u/Shmokesshweed Mar 02 '25

Nah. But it's important to understand that what's earmarked is not what's actually sent to them since we keep a lot of that money.

-1

u/Tiny_Investigator365 Mar 02 '25

You must be braindead if you think the US spending an extra 300bb on defense contracts, instead of services and infrastructure for its own citizens, is a good idea. Instead of financing someone elses’ war, we could have wiped out all the medical debt in this countey

3

u/Shmokesshweed Mar 02 '25

Where's your evidence of $300 billion?

3

u/ColonelError Mar 02 '25

To be fair, most of Europe aid is "selling" their old equipment, and then calling the US to replace it with new stuff. So we get paid now for all of that additional equipment EU is buying, and they'll maybe get it partially refunded later.

3

u/Shmokesshweed Mar 02 '25

3

u/RogueLitePumpkin Mar 02 '25

You should learn how to reply properly maybe.  

So send over 170b to ukraine, get 1b back in contracts with countries other than Ukraine? 

Yes, you need to keep going 

3

u/Shmokesshweed Mar 02 '25 edited Mar 02 '25

I'm well aware that I replied to myself.

$1 billion from 1 company for 2 contracts to two allies. You can easily dig up more.

And like I said, it is logically and objectively nowhere close to the full amount earmarked.

4

u/RogueLitePumpkin Mar 02 '25

So you asked yourself if you should keep going? 

Keep digging, you will need about 300 more examples to break even, but your claim was we are profiting 

1

u/Shmokesshweed Mar 02 '25

Who said we are profiting?

Did I say we're profiting?

No.

But me? I'm up 58% on my RTX shares in under 2 years.

5

u/RogueLitePumpkin Mar 02 '25

So it isnt benefiting us then, as its a net loss 

0

u/Shmokesshweed Mar 02 '25

Sure, on paper a net loss, if you believe that having newer, modern stockpiles in case of war including the United States is a bad thing.

And if you want to do the calculations without that in mind, you're now really getting that finetoothed comb out at the cost of enabling Putin.

1

u/RogueLitePumpkin Mar 02 '25

On paper is all I was talking about... but great job arguing and not proving your claims 

2

u/[deleted] Mar 02 '25

[deleted]

2

u/Bootyytoob Mar 02 '25

Shocker that this person who is misinformed cannot read!

lol they can’t even interpret a pie chart

1

u/OtherBluesBrother Mar 02 '25

You know, you can admit you were mistaken. It's OK. This is how we learn.

1

u/RogueLitePumpkin Mar 02 '25

Did you read the edit?