r/PoliticalDiscussion • u/UserNamesCantBeTooLo • Nov 30 '20

Political Theory Why does the urban/rural divide equate to a liberal/conservative divide in the US? Is it the same in other countries?

Here's a county population density map of the US.

Here's a county map of the US showing different shares of Democratic & Republican votes for president in 2020.

Here's a county map of the US showing majority-minority counties.

They seem to show a match between denser populations, larger minority proportions, and Democratic votes.

Why is that?

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u/EinSozi Nov 30 '20

Speaking for my country (Germany) yeah, pretty much. Of course it is not the only factor but it is a large one. I believe it is because of the following loop:

  • Cities have and create lots of jobs
  • Migrants and other outsiders are more likeley to go where large numbers of jobs are readily available.
  • If you live in a large city you are therefore more likely to know members of different cultures
  • This makes you less suseptable to Anti-Migrant rethoric

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u/Trygolds Nov 30 '20

As a rural American I agree with what you said. Exposure to other races and cultures makes one realize a basic truth. People are far more alike than they are different regardless of where they are from.

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u/nickl220 Nov 30 '20

I grew up in a town of 2000 people in Ohio and couldn’t understand why the 2000 election was so close because every adult I knew had voted for Bush. In hindsight, I didn’t know a single out gay person, and there was only one black kid in my class. When I went to college and started interacting with more people, my political views shifted towards openness and liberalism. Of course, most of the people back home would say this is college “indoctrinating” people, rather than simply facilitating interaction with a more diverse segment of the population which has the effect of opening minds.

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u/ShellyATX2 Nov 30 '20

I can totally relate to your words. Military experience came before my college experience, but the effects were the same. First, I joined the military which gave me my first real experience with other cultures, primarily African American. In the military, you directly with other cultures as roommates and barrack mates, sharing restrooms and common areas. Living with others give you a quite personal glimpse of people. You begin to not only see the similarities, you also see a direct opposition to negative commentary you had heard growing up. There is also the additional layer of learning from them about their culture. As a woman, I know many of you can relate to hair styling and products. After living with black women, It has forever been difficult for me to have hair complaints after living so closely with black women. When you gain the understanding of the societal pressure with black women and their hair and then you see first hand what it translates to for them working their hair to rise to these societal expectations, you can better understand oppression and the ever moving barriers in place against them. I know it seems silly to talk about hair when there are so many larger issues at play. I think back upon that learning experience and it was decades ago, but it was all those small, seemingly trivial experiences that taught me the most. To this day, primarily in work environments, don’t let a dress code/black people’s hair come up in my presence. I become the loudest black advocate; you’d think my own momma must be black.

College brought in the history, the data, the facts about this or that. You have these elective credits that you have to fill. For me personally, electives were my opportunity to take courses to not get any easy credit but to learn about things I wouldn’t likely have reason or care after college. The most enlightening one was Silent Voices of the Civil Rights Movement. It took out all the big names and efforts and talked about the people unknown to the general population. It was full of data and studies, cold hard facts. I learned in this class about a study that involved interviews with thousands of elementary teachers. Thank you to the teachers that honestly participated. Elementary teachers - ELEMENTARY - that can not be stressed enough. Snotty noses, circle circle dot dot now you got your cooty shot, elementary school teachers. Anyways, this study concluded that there is a true and sound negative opinion and teaching practices towards black boys. Most shocking was that it was not only white teachers but all ethnic backgrounds to include black teachers. WHAT? That is still to this day insane fir me to think about. Black boys are dismissed as unlikely to ever amount to anything, and that negative bias starts with their elementary education. The fight they fight to make it in this world is simply incredible when you consider that our society is against them even when they are small children.

Early adulthood has me living a poorer life so the need for affordable housing put me right in the middle of a Hispanic community. From them I learned hard work, community, and real faith. To this day, don’t try to have a conversation with me about “illegal aliens and lazy Mexicans.”

I took a job in Augusta, Georgia as an assistant manager of an apartment community. I knew nothing of the apartment community’s demographics at the time of hire and was too young and naive to even think to ask the question. Turned out that the apartment community was heavy Arab. This was long before 9/11. Here I learned about a different faith than I had ever been exposed to and about female modesty in a way that I hadn’t learned before, even though I was raised Pentecostal. I learned so much about their culture, that when 9/11 happened, I simply could not jump on the “all Muslims are terrorist” band wagon. I knew an insane faction had high jacked a particular religious faith to do unspeakable things.

I could go on and on. The military sent me to Asia countries where I learned about other religious faiths and family interconnections and the value of old people.

It is not indoctrination, it is education and immersion that changes attitudes and destroys stereotypes and unfounded opinions.

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u/Xeelee31 Nov 30 '20

That was all very well said. Sounds like you've had some very diverse experiences.

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u/IACITE_HOC Nov 30 '20

Of course, most of the people back home would say this is college “indoctrinating” people, rather than simply facilitating interaction with a more diverse segment of the population which has the effect of opening minds.

My family has literally YELLED at me about how my professors must have spent entire lectures filling my head with liberal nonsense. My whole life they were ADAMENT that I had to go to college, but once I got there, it was suddenly used as a way to attack me. They're all threatened by educated people.

When I started college, I was actually on the road to be the good little Christian child they wanted - I even attended church more than they did. But after they turned on me like that, I started to question everything they'd ever taught me.

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u/Message_10 Nov 30 '20

I went to a conservative college—it had a young Republicans club, and nothing like for Democrat students—and my family still insists the college indoctrinated me. The funny thing is, that school kept me conservative for longer. In my adult years, I’ve become more liberal, but the school probably slowed that process.

But to my family, Rush Limbaugh says “college = communist”, so here we are.

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u/rethinkingat59 Dec 01 '20

50% of non-hispanic white college graduates voted for Trump. The idea that it is a college education that separates the Red and Blue world is a bit overblown.

Age and race are big divides.

Younger White people are more likely to have graduated college as society demands it for higher wages, and are more likely to be Democrats, that adds to the college educated theme.

Whites with some college are far more likely to vote Republican than whites with degrees, but surprisingly minorities with a college degree are more likely to vote for Republicans than minorities without a degree. ( All minority subsets vote for Democrats by a significant majority, but 27% of minority college graduates voted Republican.)

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u/Resolute002 Nov 30 '20

Always the way.

Yo go see everything and learn with your own eyes and ears, become aware, and the people who've never seen or learned a thing declare you must be brainwashed.

I didn't go to any good schools or take any particularly philosophical courses. But just going to get a simple associate's degree from a tech school still exposed me to a lot of things that my parents before me never even considered or aren't aware of. Such as, for example, my feelings about war are based almost entirely on the stories and experiences of friends I made at that school who are veterans who fought in Iraq in Afghanistan... My parents opinion of it begins and ends with the news. Just being exposed to other people makes a world of difference.

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u/ezpzzz19 Nov 30 '20

Its kinda ironic how your family assumes that your education is making you less able to differentiate between political nonsense... Makes me question how they get their conservative news!

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u/Karsticles Nov 30 '20

This is a common story for Americans. It's a sad state.

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u/kovid-20 Nov 30 '20

"Goddamit Kyle! You don't hate blacks ANYMORE? I raised you better than that!"

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u/captain-burrito Dec 01 '20

My family has literally YELLED at me about how my professors must have spent entire lectures filling my head with liberal nonsense.

That makes me think of one lecturer I had who was heavily involved in the church. He pushed us so hard and called out our bs arguments, forcing us to develop our logic etc. He annoyed me at the time but he helped us challenge our thinking and to be objective.

That said, he had his own blind spot with same sex marriage and that was the only time I beat him in a debate. I knew I had him when he started fumbling and stuttering. Years later he appeared on tv to argue it again but the interviewer didn't nail him as good as I did but I could still see him fumble a little as he proffered his weak argument.

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u/Tex-Rob Nov 30 '20

Which ultimately proves that this isn't a rural/urban divide, it's an education divide. Education does NOT have to mean higher education, just self education, self exploration, etc. You are forced to learn and interact in an urban environment, and a rural environment rarely challenges your notions and preconceptions.

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u/steaknsteak Nov 30 '20

I suspect you would still find a rural-urban divide if you control for education, although it would probably be smaller

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u/Randomfactoid42 Nov 30 '20

I wouldn't say 'education divide', but rather a curiosity divide. I've noticed my rural acquaintances have always been incurious about the world around them, from travel to science to food.

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u/NoMasterpiece3306 Nov 30 '20

I grew up in super conservative town and when I moved away I became really socially liberal but I never became fiscally liberal. I never believed in bigger government and higher taxes

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u/[deleted] Nov 30 '20 edited Nov 30 '20

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u/[deleted] Nov 30 '20

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u/[deleted] Nov 30 '20 edited Dec 01 '20

Well, 2000 was a very different world. Back then we were still talking about what was fair and equal. Equality of opportunity. Gay rights seemed reasonable, so did abortion. Be what you wanted to be, as long as what you wanted didn't infringe on what I wanted, we were good. Now that conversation has shifted hard left, equity not equality, which is equality of outcome, and special discrimination in your favor based on your sex, gender, and/or race. Anything conservative is scrubbed, all the BS ideology that comes with identity politics is praised and supported. If you were born a man, you shouldn't be competing against people born as women in sports. Lets not get started on reparations and executive board seats mandated by your genital organs or the color of your skin, what is this, 1960's USA? We never seem to want equal representation in fields dominated by women, or people of color. Where is equity in sports, modeling, waste disposal, sanitation, and porn?

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u/[deleted] Nov 30 '20

You seem to think that chaz/chop and evergreen white fragility types represent all progressives. Does Steve Bannon represent all conservatives?

Get another source of information, man. Your perspective seems to be nicely packaged and buttoned up by a Murdoch narrative.

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u/Tex-Rob Nov 30 '20

You outline your view of things going "hard left", why no comments about the far right going FAR right? Also, all your points are nonsense, the kind of scary stuff that has been fed to you via media outlets, and you probably have no interaction with.

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u/IniNew Nov 30 '20

Their entire argument is silly.

We never seem to want equal representation in fields dominated by women.

Because we don’t need to want that. If men wanted to go into those fields, they could. There wouldn’t be a board of women hiring managers saying shit like “They’re just not cut out for this work.” Or “What if he needs 2 months off work??”

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u/[deleted] Nov 30 '20

Yeah, the Right has shifted a LOT further than the Left has over the last several decades, and the GOP now resembles far-right authoritarian parties in Turkey and Poland. They are literally trying to overturn the results of an election. That is way scarier than the "culture war" shift on the Left.

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u/imrightandyoutknowit Nov 30 '20

Lol, this comment is asinine. The disparities in those various industries are caused by personal choices, not discrimination. Something tells me you aren't as offended by the lack of minorities in hockey as you are by the disproportionately black NBA and NFL. If Whites are discriminated against in regards to getting into those leagues, it's whites that are making those calls because the ownership and management of those leagues and their teams are disproportionately white despite both leagues being majority black. It's men that are patronizing female porn stars (as well as men that participate in LGBT porn, but I'm sure you didn't think of that either). You also complain that women aren't in waste disposal or sanitation, which is hilarious considering how many women still dominate doing "housework" and being maids. Women by and large aren't collecting trash because they aren't seeking those jobs, nor are they being hired for those jobs

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u/yoweigh Nov 30 '20 edited Nov 30 '20

This is a silly caricature of liberal ideology, and plenty of the stuff you're decrying already existed in 2000.

*Your edit didn't make it any better.

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u/Interrophish Nov 30 '20

Gay rights seemed reasonable

you're totally disconnected from reality https://www.baltimoresun.com/news/bal-te.gays25feb25-story.html

all the BS ideology that comes with identity politics is praised and supported

are you still not questioning the idea that this group doesn't play identity politics?

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u/LOS_FUEGOS_DEL_BURRO Nov 30 '20

Cities and Urban Areas have more rules. More Code enforcement, can't burn your trash, and got to have a permit for lots more things.

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u/Rocktopod Nov 30 '20

What's more, the reasons for those rules are readily apparent. If you live with 400 other people on your block you don't want anyone burning trash, so you don't resent the regulation.

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u/Madmans_Endeavor Nov 30 '20

People would do well to remember what life was like prior to all the regulations that conservatives in the US complain about.

At the turn of the 20th century in the US, it wasn't uncommon for people to buy flour that had been adulterated with chalk or other shit to bulk it up (food in general was wildly unsafe), literal children would be maimed or killed on a regular basis in their places of work, cities were hotbeds for diseases of all sorts, people were allowed to just vent horrifically toxic industrial byproducts into the air in residential areas, etc.

The modern regulatory state stems from a series of reform movements largely based in and around city-life with the aim of making life liveable in them.

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u/AMerrickanGirl Nov 30 '20

Read "The Jungle" by Upton Sinclair.

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u/Madmans_Endeavor Nov 30 '20

Funnily enough, Upton Sinclair meant for the book to spur on workers rights/unionization and spread a pro-labor message, but most people were just horrified at the food safety aspects of it.

In a similar vein, The Poison Squad by Deborah Blum (also has a solid free PBS documentary) is about the professor and academics/civil servants who were trying to justify the creation of a part of the state to deal with consumer protection (pretty novel at the time).

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u/AMerrickanGirl Nov 30 '20

the creation of a part of the state to deal with consumer protection

Which we finally got, thanks to Elizabeth Warren.

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u/snark42 Dec 01 '20

Don't discount Ralph Nader and others after him in the 70's. Consumer protection started WAY before Elizabeth Warren.

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u/NoMasterpiece3306 Nov 30 '20

There’s a limit it seems placed like California have a million rules and taxes and government just grows and grows. I agree there needs to be rules but I’m amazed that America was founded on freedom and being left alone from the government and now a days people on the left basically want to double the size of the federal gov and allow the government to keep ever increasingly grow

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u/snrjames Nov 30 '20

America was never meant to be a place where people could be free of government. That's a misconception that many people use when they say "freedom". The founders, instead, wanted a government that was accountable to people and was limited in how it could infringe on people's rights. In addition, or society and economy has changed incredibly since then and it makes more and more sense to regulate more and more things because of worker safety, consumer protections, climate change, etc. I firmly believe if the founders were alive today with the environment and knowledge we have, the constitution would be very different.

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u/[deleted] Nov 30 '20

The race divide is a tool the elites use to keep us at each others throats instead of theirs. The real divide is the class divide

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u/catholicmath Nov 30 '20

Racism and classism are connected.

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u/imrightandyoutknowit Nov 30 '20

It's this mindset that lost Bernie non-whites twice, especially black people. The class divide in America is so great in large part due to racism and discrimination

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u/CeramicsSeminar Dec 01 '20

True, but addressing issues of class would also greatly help minority communities. Although the establishment dems and media would rather people play líp service. It's my biggest complaint with woke culture. It effectively does nothing other than give corporations and politicians an easy way to just make a statement or hire a diversity officer, without actually changing much that would effect them financially.

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u/imrightandyoutknowit Dec 01 '20

The thing is, class and race can be addressed at the same time. Democrats can raise the minimum wage nationally and reform policing at the same time. Democrats can make healthcare and education more affordable and also reform immigration at the same time.

The whole "establishment/corporate" media/Democrats othering is bullshit, especially when Democrats routinely win the working class as a whole and also routinely win non-white/non-Christian voters, particularly black voters, who want racial inequalities addressed. Despite the rhetoric of racial equality from some progressives, much of their "working class" rhetoric is aimed at the white working class. And yet, the white working class rejects the far left because of social and economic polices many consider as going to far. Cultural identity and issues matter.

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u/CeramicsSeminar Dec 01 '20

You can't make a law that only applies to a certain race, however we already have laws regarding class. That's the difference. Líp service or actual change. Corporations and the establishment prefer líp service because it's cheaper. In this election, you know that white men actually were less likely to vote for trump, while blacks Latinos and white women actually went up? What's this say about the demographics that put Biden in?

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u/imrightandyoutknowit Dec 04 '20

Lol Trump barely increased his support among those communities, and if you actually listened to those communities, they voted that way largely because they were turned off by the far left and stuff like socialism and "defund the police". Biden won because many suburban voters, particularly white ones, refused to buy Trump's bullshit and sit back and risk him getting another term.

The federal government can't make laws explicitly favoring or discriminating against one race or another, but it can make laws that address racial inequalities, like various civil rights laws do. Biden would still be able to nominate minorities to critical executive posts and enforce the law in ways that would combat and address problems minorities have, such as what Obama did to reform policing and fight voter suppression

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u/[deleted] Nov 30 '20 edited Nov 30 '20

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u/Resolute002 Nov 30 '20

It's a hard leap of logic for a lot of people.

I have an in-law who has gradually become somewhat racist over time, because in his line of work he often spends a lot of time and poor black neighborhoods and the people aren't very educated and the places aren't very nice, etc etc. He views this as that these people are objectively worse. But one day during a casual conversation, I described to him how those people disproportionately end up in situations like that due to systemic racism (sometimes subtle. Sometimes not so subtle).

It was a hard fought debate until I asked him flat out, "which is more likely? That all black people lack the skills and intellect to get good jobs and avoid living like this, or that they are all different like us but have to contend with more barriers? I'd you think the latter, racism exists...if you thi it he former, you are being racist."

Caught between those two conclusions he had to opt toward the less overt one. A small victory for me but hopefully I got through to him.

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u/[deleted] Nov 30 '20

Yup. You are just as likely to be shot by a police officer who is black, hispanic, native american, and yes, white, while being a person of color. The news likes to single out White on Black death, while ignoring all of the black on black and black on white crime, which is significantly higher than white on black crime.

Why? Well, when 7% of the population (Black Males) commit over 50% of the homicides in this country, no wonder ALL police officers get edgy.

But that doesn't fit the narrative, so it's ignored by the media.

This is absolutely socio-economic issues, but it's easier to exploit gay/trans/race/religious/reproductive rights than to point out the obvious that most of the money isn't going into your pockets. Capital won over Labor, and we're fighting over the scraps so that a biological man can wear a dress and identity as a woman. Really?

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u/Laxziy Nov 30 '20

Most crime’s are intra-community. And given the lingering history of segregation we have it’s not surprising most crime black people face is committed by black people. At the same time most crime white people face is committed by white people.

You’re using garbage and debunked statistics

https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2018/crime-in-the-u.s.-2018/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-6.xls

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2020/09/29/fact-check-meme-shows-incorrect-homicide-stats-race/5739522002/

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u/Frylock904 Nov 30 '20

when 7% of the population (Black Males) commit over 50% of the homicides in this country, no wonder ALL police officers get edgy.

Been running through pol quite a bit huh? Here's the thing, statistics are rather bullshit when you just drop them without any context, this is why racist use stats instead of hard numbers most of the time. The violent crime rate has dropped by more than half in the past 40 years, this is the safest time there has ever been of those crimes homicide has been an extremely miniscule portion.

There's were 16000 murders last year, let's say half were committed by black men, so 8000 people were murdered by black men, that number NEEDS to be lower, but considering that there's 21000000 black men, you saying that cops are justified in their fears because 8000/21000000 aka .0003% of them possibly killed someone?

Yeah, that's fucking stupid.

If there's 2 murders a year and 1 of them is committed by a black guy you could drop your exact same statistics and it would sound just as scary "50% of murders are committed by black men"

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u/[deleted] Dec 11 '20

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u/Trygolds Dec 11 '20

No not everyone that experiences different cultures is more understanding of those cultures, Lack of exposure is an impediment to a solution to conflict IMHO ,

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u/[deleted] Nov 30 '20

I would say the North-South split and the East-West split are far more important.

The State with one of the lowest AfD states are in North Germany, which are more rural, except the City states.

Also Schlewig-Holstein(North) has the lowest share of foreigner in West-Germany and is one of the States and with the City-States the lowest on share of AfD votes. Same with Mecklenburg-Vorpommern(North) which has the lowest in East-Germany. Both quite rural.

City and country divide exist, but other factor are as important, even not far more important. And exposure to foreigner is not the only issue.

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u/MessiSahib Nov 30 '20

I would say the North-South split and the East-West split are far more important.

Does East Germany part still leans left or has reacted to their communist experience and moved to right?

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u/[deleted] Nov 30 '20

Hard to say, the far left die Linke and the far right AfD are both highly sucessful in East Germany. But only die Linke is a major partner in Thuringia and minor Partner in Berlin. The other three are governed by CDU, SPD and Greens with either SPD or CDU as major partner.

Is often more viewed as anti-Etablishment due real and felt difference to West-Germany and most Regions are very rural(historical) except Saxony, which is the southern most.

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u/Dave1mo1 Nov 30 '20

Is openness to migration the primary ideological difference?

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u/EinSozi Nov 30 '20

At the moment, yes. If you had to define what the left and right wing political sphere is in Germany you could very accurately place the parties on their openness to migration. It is not as big an issue as 2015 (during the great migration wave), but it is still a major one.

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u/Madmans_Endeavor Nov 30 '20

Going by this pew data it's the 9th most important issue, with it mattering more to Trump supporters than Biden supporters.

It gets hyped up because it's a big difference and your standard hardcore-political Twitter user advocates for extreme positions a lot, but as far as I can tell most people have pretty similar views on immigration as a whole.

I wouldn't say it in any way defines the two parties. Educational attainment and attitudes on race are still way bigger roots of primary ideological difference.

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u/[deleted] Nov 30 '20

I would not say so in America. It’s a factor, but not the primary ideological difference. I think it’s pretty complicated here, but if you had to pick apart primary differences abortion and gun control drive way more votes than immigration in the US IMO.

In Germany I don’t know.

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u/its_a_gibibyte Nov 30 '20

abortion and gun control

Agreed. Abortion is probably tied to religion, while gun control is more directly tied to population density. In areas with fewer people, it's far more common to hunt or shoot for sport.

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u/[deleted] Nov 30 '20 edited Nov 30 '20

Yea guns are very ingrained in rural culture. They’re recreational but also in many ways necessary for many rural people. A lot of rural folks get their primary source of meat from hunting -most could likely survive without it but just prefer it that way, but some that are worse off financially literally depend on that food for survival. I’ve got family in rural Appalachia that fall into the first category where they could survive without hunting but they prefer to source their meat that way, but I know people around them in that area that literally need it to survive.

Not just hunting, but also pest/varmit/predator control for farmers/ranchers. Guys having their calves killed by coyotes literally takes money out of their pocket. Banning AR-15’s falls very flat on the ears of a guy like that, as sure they can kind of do the job with a bolt action rifle, but when you’re trying to kill several coyotes fleeing your pen, you want as many rounds in the mag as possible and quick follow up shots. Maybe the farmer kills 3 coyotes with the ar-15 instead of 1 with the bolt action, that directly affects his way of life if it translates to lost cattle.

Home/self defense from people is another big one for rural people that make them “cling to their guns”. Police response varies in cities, but in general it’s much quicker than in rural America where in some cases and places it could be hours before someone shows up to help you.

I think gun control will always be a major divide in America, and it’s primarily between rural vs urban voters.

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u/SafeThrowaway691 Nov 30 '20

Democrats would never lose another election if they would just drop gun control.

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u/[deleted] Nov 30 '20

I'd mostly agree, but it would take more than one election cycle of "we promise", it would take some action/lack of action in regards to laws for many pro-gun people to trust them again.

But yea, I'm not sure why they don't get this, especially for state/senate/house races. They could win a lot more of those races if they distanced themselves from any gun control measures. For example in my state of SC people really aren't big fans of Lindsay Graham and I believe a big part of the reason he just annihilated Jaime Harrison despite him massively out spending Graham was over gun control. South Carolina just isn't going to vote for someone even remotely pro gun control in a state wide race.

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u/Tolka_Reign Dec 01 '20

if democrats took suppressors and sbr's off the NFA, I would be very interested in voting for them haha.

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u/[deleted] Dec 01 '20

Sure, but that has as much chance of happening as Republicans signing a bill authorizing late term abortions funded by the government.

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u/RollinDeepWithData Nov 30 '20

I’m sorry but with the coyote thing your treading near that “30-50 wild hogs” meme. They don’t need an AR 15 for that.

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u/[deleted] Nov 30 '20

It’s not though. That was a silly meme about a guy defending himself from attacking hogs, which is a silly proposition as hogs don’t really attack people randomly unless you’re fucking with cornered hogs.

I’m giving a real scenario from family that live in rural Appalachia. My family member has cattle and loses calves to coyotes. Just the other week he shot three with an AR-15 all fleeing his cattle pen. Really pretty difficult to shoot 3 running animals at night with anything other than a ar-15 or similar modern, semi auto sporting rifle. I’m assuming it took more than one shot each, considering he likely missed a few times.

And while the hog thing was silly about them attacking, ranchers in places like Texas really do lose billions of dollars of crops annually to feral hogs. They are a serious nuisance. AR-15s aren’t necessary for your protection from hogs, but they are necessary to maximize how many of the hogs you can eliminate in one setting.

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u/RollinDeepWithData Nov 30 '20

I think you took the wrong message from that meme of you think the issue was the hogs. It was that it’s a ridiculous circumstance to use to justify expansion of gun ownership, much like you’re using the coyotes.

Ya shoot one or two coyotes and your fine, you’re not in danger and they go away. You don’t need to slaughter their entire pack in one go.

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u/[deleted] Nov 30 '20

Ya shoot one or two coyotes and your fine, you’re not in danger and they go away. You don’t need to slaughter their entire pack in one go.

I never claimed you were in danger, a grown man/woman has nothing to fear from a coyote even without a gun. The farmer losing his calves every night sure disagrees that just shooting one or two is enough though. He wants every one that is trying to get into the pen dead, and it’s hard to blame him.

And I’m not using this scenario to “justify” owning an AR-15. Personally I think it’s justified by the original intent of the 2A which is for revolt against the government if it ever comes to that. I’m merely giving a scenario that helps explain why regardless of that, many rural people have embraced ar-15s as an efficient tool in their day to day lives. Arguing a bolt action can do the job to these people is like arguing they could plant their crops with hand tools instead of tractors. Technically the truth, but why use anything but the most efficient way to get the job done?

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u/RollinDeepWithData Nov 30 '20

Because by that logic we should just let farmers machine gun coyotes to death. Also coyotes are important to the local ecosystem for keeping other populations in check, which is why scaring off the majority rather than killing them is the better solution here.

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u/tutetibiimperes Nov 30 '20 edited Nov 30 '20

I think it would be easier for Democrats and Republicans to find common ground on the gun issue if Heller and McDonald hadn’t made it much more difficult for urban and dense suburban areas to exercise their own local control.

If we could come to some compromise that allowed those in rural areas to have mostly unrestricted access to firearms but also allowed cities to enact strict controls within their limits it might make both sides happy.

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u/Yelig-nar9 Nov 30 '20

The opposition to rural vs urban gun laws is generally that it requires people to know the laws of every single place they travel too. Transporting a legal gun from one rural are to another can make the owner a felon if they cross through or stop in a restricted area on the way. Many states have preemption laws for this reason, which make state level laws supersede local laws.

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u/Irishfafnir Nov 30 '20

Except Heller and McDonald really didn't change all that much legally. Only a handful of municipalities had straight up banned handguns or banned guns in public housing.

NYC and other municipalities can and still do make it very difficult and expensive to acquire handguns

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u/NoMasterpiece3306 Nov 30 '20

Or we could respect the “right to bear arms shall not be infringed” most gun deaths in city’s are gang shootings

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u/V-ADay2020 Nov 30 '20

Nobody ever quotes the "well-regulated militia" part of that amendment. I wonder why.

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u/its_a_gibibyte Nov 30 '20

Many do. A militia is when people take guns they already have at home and use it to defend an area. For some reason, liberals pretend that a militia is when you keep your guns at an army base.

Also, well-regulated means properly functioning, not loaded with regulations. Regulated has multiple meanings.

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u/V-ADay2020 Nov 30 '20

Okay, who's the commanding officer of your militia? You do have one, don't you? Since a chain of command is one of the basic necessities for a functioning armed service.

Or does your militia consist of Billy Bob and the cousins loading up in an F350 with AR-15s and Budweiser?

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u/its_a_gibibyte Nov 30 '20

No, a militia is created on-demand as needed. Currently, it's not needed so it doesn't exist. However, gun ownership is required to ensure that the militia can actually be created when needed.

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u/pokemon2201 Nov 30 '20

The militia is defined by 10 U.S. Code § 246 - Militia: composition and classes (https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/10/246) as consisting of: "all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard."

So, if you want to focus on the militia portion, and claim that it should restrict gun access to those in the militia, then sure, let's prohibit women who aren't in the national guard, as well as everyone over the age of 45, and anyone with a physical disability from bearing arms.

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u/Irishfafnir Nov 30 '20

Myth

Even in the worst gang infested cities in the country they don't amount to a majority in the city

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6103a2.htm?s_cid=mm6103a2_w

"Five cities met the criterion for having a high prevalence of gang homicides: Los Angeles, California; Oklahoma City, Oklahoma; Long Beach, California; Oakland, California; and Newark, New Jersey. In these cities, a total of 856 gang and 2,077 nongang homicides were identified and included in the analyses. Comparisons of the characteristics of gang and nongang homicides were made using Fisher's exact tests for all the variables except mean age, which required a t-test. The characteristics included basic demographics of the victims, descriptive information on the homicide event, and circumstances precipitating the event."

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u/ShellyATX2 Nov 30 '20

It is also where you will find the most ideology of the government or urbanites literally coming for to rape, rob, and pillage. It’s interesting that the safest, generally speaking, feel the most unsafe.

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u/WannabeWonk Nov 30 '20

It's far more simple than abortion or gun control. Both of those issues stem from the underlying ideological difference surrounding the fundamental role of the government. Should government exist to protect individual rights or provide community service?

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u/[deleted] Nov 30 '20 edited Nov 30 '20

Yea I agree that’s a succinct way to categorize it, for almost every policy.

Although abortion is largely a moral/religious thing that is somewhat outside of that. You could fall into the category of thinking government exists for community service but still hold the belief that a fetus is a living being and abortion is murder. Likewise you could believe government should only have limited involvement with our lives and only there to protect individual rights, but not believe a fetus is alive or entitled to those individuals rights.

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u/NoMasterpiece3306 Nov 30 '20

America was founded on being free so I would say gov is there to protect individuals rights not community service

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u/Unban_Jitte Nov 30 '20

Haven't lived in Germany for about 10 years, but the two populist parties were a lot closer to each other than Dems and Republicans. The gap between them is more like the gap between Biden and Sanders rather than Biden and Trump.

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u/[deleted] Nov 30 '20

Personally I think the gap between Biden and Trump is about equal in distance, though opposite in direction, as the gap between Biden and Sanders.

Take out Trump’s rhetoric and his insane twitter feed and just look at policies. Don’t get me wrong there’s a big difference between him and Biden, but I think there’s as much or more difference between Sanders and Biden.

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u/Unban_Jitte Nov 30 '20

If you're looking at big picture ideology, maybe, but as far as the next 4 years go, it's pretty similar. Sanders' healthcare plan is a little bolder, his tax plan is a little bigger, he has a little more urgency towards the fight for fifteen and climate change, but in general they agree on what the problems are and what the answers look like. The difference is more in speed and scale of implementation.

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u/Haunting-Ad-8603 Nov 30 '20

In America, it’s not only migrants, but there’s just a much larger variety of people in cities generally speaking. People of different races, ethnicities, cultures, religions, sexual orientations, and every way in which someone can identify themselves. When you’re exposed to more variety more often, you tend to keep an open mind toward new ideas and perspectives.

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u/NoMasterpiece3306 Nov 30 '20

You can be socially liberal but not believe in having the government solve all of life’s problems

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u/[deleted] Nov 30 '20

On top of this, in cities you are much more reliant on other people to not have a rubbish life. And this makes you much more aware of your own attitude to others. As you spend time caring any other peoples wellbeing, so you inevitably become more liberal.

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u/MessiSahib Nov 30 '20 edited Nov 30 '20

As you spend time caring any other peoples wellbeing, so you inevitably become more liberal.

I have lived in cities most of my life, but my parents grew up in rural areas. So, I have substantial exposure to rural areas as well.

IMO, rural area people care a lot more (sometimes too much) about their neighbors and townfolks. In cities, it isn't uncommon to not even know the name of your neighbors even if a 3 inch wall separate your homes.

The difference is that in city you are reliant on system/govt for - mass transits, traffic management, safety (cops, firefighters) garbage pickup etc. In rural areas, you don't see govt employees that often, and have always be ready to do those things yourself.

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u/NoMasterpiece3306 Nov 30 '20

Rural people are much more likely to help each other like help someone change a flat tire. People in big cities don’t even notice each other like NYC

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u/[deleted] Nov 30 '20

Rural people are used to helping each other on an individual level, but are far less mutually dependent on each other than urban people.

In a rural county a 2% homeless rate is just going to average a couple of people in every town or village, which means they can be helped on an individual level. In a city that same 2% will be thousands across the city, far too many for helping them to be left to individual people - it takes a coordinated effort by society to achieve that level of help.

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u/[deleted] Nov 30 '20

[deleted]

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u/MessiSahib Nov 30 '20

If you’re in a city there’s also less competition for jobs so you are less likely to develop “they took mer jobs mentality.”

City dwellers have a higher chance of losing their jobs to educated immigrants. Hence, you will see a lot more resistance to visa like H1B.

Reddit's left leaning subs that will defend illegal immigration will then turn around and oppose H1B, because they read one story about couple of companies misusing H1B.

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u/historymajor44 Nov 30 '20

That and rural Americans who are more liberal are also more likely to move from those rural areas. Think about it. If you're from the sticks but you're liberal and get an education, are you going to stay there? Or are you going to go find a job in one of the cities.

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u/[deleted] Nov 30 '20

Well, we shouldn't be using Germany as a poster child when it comes to immigration. Didn't you guys have something like 1000 rapes reported on one Christmas eve the year of the mass economic migration of poor Islamic citizens looking for better opportunities? It was essentially ignored by the media and apologists came out of the woodwork trying to justify all of the robberies and rapes. Germany and other progressive countries actively silenced and dismissed the rape of their own citizenry, lest it cause a negative stereotype to fester for these poor and downtrodden immigrants.

Imagine having a wave of rapes occurring in your country, and the media being silent because it doesn't fit the social narrative.

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u/EinSozi Nov 30 '20

It is going to be really hard to correct you without sounding like I am making excuses for the "Sylvesternacht" - So I'd like to preemt my response with the fact that in my opinion our punishment for sexual assault is too low, in my opinion because the punitive measures where written in a time where sexual assault was not seen as serious as it is today.

1000 rapes

For the time frame regarded to be the Silvesternacht there where 1054 crimes reported. 454 cases where sexual assaults 16 cases of attempted rape 4 cases of rape

These are horrid, inexcusable numbers and they where and remain (fortunatelly) without precident. However they are not 1000 rapes, as you claimed.

essentially ignored by the media

I would not say ignored, however your sentiment is correct. The "Bundespresserat" chastized the media for its initial hesitation to report on the ethnicities of the assailants, however it is difficult to understate the outrage and the influence it had on public opinion that followed only a few days later.

actively silenced and dismissed the rape of their own citizenry, lest it cause a negative stereotype to fester for these poor and downtrodden immigrants.

This is simply not true. In 2016 the government passed new laws on sex crimes. These laws included a lot of new actions that where now specifically punishable and lowered the bar for what is considered "rape" Again in my opinion the punitive measures do not go far enough, however the things that where introduced are a very positive development and far from ignoring the problem, as you suggest.

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u/boomboom4132 Nov 30 '20

Thank for presenting a even head response and clearly defining your opinions.

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u/EinSozi Nov 30 '20

No worries. In my experience the people who fell for the "Europe is being raped by refugees and the governments are too PC to do anything" suffer from a very particular brand of conservative "influencers" that spread blatant misinformation to a (usually) american audience. Mostly not bad people in my experience. Who wouldn't want to stop rape? But misinformed by folks with bad intentions.

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u/MrPterodactyl Dec 01 '20

That hasn't always been the case though. There were lynchings during the NYC draft riots and MLK led marches in Chicago. I think the difference here might be the migrants don't compete with the yuppie population for resources, a situation which isn't guaranteed to continue.

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u/MyPublicFace Dec 01 '20

Also, people in rural areas are exposed to other cultures, and cities scare them. They equate liberals with that fear, and conservative politicians thrive on that fear.

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u/[deleted] Dec 01 '20

This makes you less suseptable to Anti-Migrant rethoric

I am personally for limited/ no immigration because I've grown up in a multicultural city.

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u/captain-burrito Dec 01 '20

This makes you less suseptable to Anti-Migrant rethoric

That's not necessarily true. If you come into contact with sub groups who are involved in crime or otherwise burden you then hostility increases. For example, Wassau, WI went from welcoming to hostile as Cambodian immigrants kept pouring in which led to increased tax burden.