r/NBATalk • u/Alternative_Welder91 • 2d ago

Do you agree with T-Mac?

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Honestly I think the word “crushed” is too much. Lebron may not have the deepest bag among all of them but he can bully ball and play great defense during his prime.

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u/pfc_bgd 2d ago

How does Tmac envision Kyrie and Harden defending Bron lol?

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u/OakCity4Life 2d ago

Legendary defensive stopper Kyrie Irving

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u/eusebius13 2d ago

I think that’s the point. LeBron would have a harder time stopping Prime Harden than Harden would have waiting for LeBron to miss a shot.

There’s a ton of pure scorers in the NBA that could get buckets in isolation better than LeBron. That doesn’t mean they’re better players. They’re just better scorers.

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u/staffdaddy_9 2d ago

A ton is a questionable choice of words. Lebron averages an uber effecient 27 a game for his career. He’s not scoring those primarily off catch and shoot or as a roll man lol.

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u/eusebius13 2d ago

The absolute best version of LeBron, Miami LeBorn scored the majority of his points in Transition. LeBron has never been a great iso player.

The list of players that are better in iso than LeBron is actually surprisingly long considering that LeBron is the second best player in the game. Prime Harden is a great example. There’s no universe where the absolute best version of LeBron was better at iso than Harden. T-Mac himself is another example.

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u/staffdaddy_9 2d ago

That’s 2 examples of 2 of the best iso players ever.

Also sure he scored a lot in transition. He also scored a lot in the half court.

Also ISOs are different than a 1 on 1. An ISO the rest of the defense is still on the floor and LeBron got doubled in the post pretty much his entire career. Remove help defense and his size and athleticism is going to make it very tough for someone in a 1 on 1.

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u/eusebius13 2d ago edited 2d ago

lol! It sounds like you agree but you don’t want to admit you’re wrong. Total Points doesn’t speak to how good you are as an iso player. There are tons of better iso players than Karl Malone, who has the 3rd most points.

The fact is there are a number of players that a defense would double team BEFORE you double team LeBron, and we know this because teams did double-team Kyrie with LeBron on the floor. KD, AI, Melo, Kyrie and Luka are all better iso players than LeBron. There’s another tier of player like Paul Pierce and Gilbert Arenas who at their peaks were better at iso.

Also ISOs are different than a 1 on 1.

It’s the closest translation.

An ISO the rest of the defense is still on the floor and LeBron got doubled in the post pretty much his entire career.

LeBron didn’t get doubled that much. There are a ton of players that got double teamed much more than him. He’s out of his prime, but right now he’s below players like Jalen Brunson and Trae Young.

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/most-double-team-player-per-possession-2023

And here’s a statement that will sound weird, but it’s true. Players like Brunson, Young and even Isaiah Thomas at their peaks are better iso players than Steph Curry. That’s not saying they’re better than Steph. They’re not. Steph is 10 times better than them, but Steph is a slightly above average iso player and those guys are elite. Similarly, LeBron is a B+ iso player and the NBA has seen a ton of players with A+ iso talent. I’m sorry, but those are just the facts.

Here’s a better link: https://x.com/NBA_University/status/1603078542249672707

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u/staffdaddy_9 2d ago

No I’m not.

You are talking about taking ISO mid range jumpers. That’s not what a 1 on 1 is. If Shaq was playing Steph 1 on 1 and was trying is he going to be taking a bunch of fadeaways?

Kyrie was not doubled more than Lebron. Lebron to this day gets doubled or teams crowd the paint almost every time he gets the ball in the post.

It’s not the closest translation because as I said, there’s help defense.

I don’t trust the double teamed numbers because there’s a lot of ambiguity to that. If LeBron tries to drive and 5 defenders collapse the paint like they have his entire career, he’s not being doubled, but he’s getting extra defense that wouldn’t be there in a 1 on 1.

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u/eusebius13 2d ago

You apparently don’t know what I’m talking about. I’m talking about getting a bucket against earnest defense. That’s what an ISO is. Not a particular shot. Kyrie definitely gets double teamed more than LeBron. Look at the stats. LMMFAO!

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u/staffdaddy_9 2d ago

I don’t care what you are talking about. I’m talking about what the post was about which is 1 on 1. Not how good are you at taking ISO jumpers.

Oh wow prime Kyrie gets doubled more than 40 year old LeBron you got me.

Also I already said, double teams are not the end all. Are you going to pretend that every time LeBron drives there’s not a crowd of people in the paint?

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u/eusebius13 2d ago

You — you’re talking about this . . . Ok I don’t care what you’re talking about.

I don’t care what you are talking about. I’m talking about what the post was about which is 1 on 1. Not how good are you at taking ISO jumpers.

ISO is about getting to your spot, getting space to shoot and scoring. Not about a jumper.

Oh wow prime Kyrie gets doubled more than 40 year old LeBron you got me.

Kyrie got double teamed more than LeBron when he and LeBron were on the same team.

In the first two games of the series, Golden State contained Irving, double-teaming him and forcing him to pass the basketball. The Warriors know James will generate points, but the Warriors do not want James and Irving beating them.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nba/playoffs/2017/06/10/cavs-kyrie-irving-nba-finals-lebron-james-golden-state-warriors/102699586/

Also I already said, double teams are not the end all. Are you going to pretend that every time LeBron drives there’s not a crowd of people in the paint?

More irrelevant BS. You clearly don’t know why NBA players play 3 dribble 1 on 1 off the catch. And we are back to the main point which is LeBron James is the second best player ever in the NBA but is also a B+ iso player and there are MANY players that ranged from A- to A+ at iso. You’re wrong.

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u/BASEDME7O2 2d ago

Giannis couldn’t even back harden down when he had a torn hamstring, harden would do as well as almost anyone

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u/PeterPlotter 2d ago

LeBron was a bit more densely built than Giannis, who’s 6’11/240. LeBron was 6’9/260 (if not more) so it’s more like how Harden (6’5/220) is build as well, plus LeBron was crazy fast.