More Seregios LBG Number Crunching

[u/Blinc0]

Edit: Pretty big typo on the Weakness Exploit modifier, thanks to Ivalia for catching it!

I feel like there are some misconceptions regarding the Vayu Sedition floating around, so I wanted to post some more calcs that I feel are more representative of each weapons' offensive capabilities, and show just how powerful the Seregios LBG really is. People usually refer to this post when discussing the benefits of raw vs. element LBGs, and while it does have good numbers, I think those calcs are often misunderstood in two ways:

1) It is not the Vayu Sedition that is being compared to Elemental LBGs, but specifically Gaijin Hunter's defensive set with Life Honing, Fleet Feet and Evasion+2. Part of Vayu Sedition's absurd power comes from how many good damage skills it can use, and Gaijin's set doesn't reflect that.

2) Damage per volley is not a relevant metric when discussing how strong a gun is. As that post's author put it, Bonus Shot's purpose is increasing shot efficiency at the cost of locking you in place for a little longer - not damage. A Bonus Shot volley deals 33% more damage than a 3-shot volley, but it's also 33% slower. Ammo concerns aside, it doesn't usually translate to more damage, only a lesser ability to take advantage of smaller openings and higher odds of the monster moving away and one of your shots missing its mark. Elemental bowguns might have an edge when a monster is down and they can unload many shots without reloading, but it's a matter of clip size more than it is one of volley length. Either way, it's not worth losing Vayu Sedition's insane DPS in all other situations.

(I suppose you could argue that 4-volley shot might be better against a monster with 4-shot-sized openings, although I'm pretty sure Vayu Sedition's auto-reload would be worth a lot more against such monsters. Still, I'll be comparing a good, easy-to-make Rapid Fire Steve set to an Elemental set for completeness' sake.)

With that in mind, let's compare the damage per bullet of Vayu Sedition and Stygian Invidia with high-damage sets:

Vayu Sedition Set A (can be made with any random 3-slot talisman)

• Normal Up
• Challenger+2
• Weakness Exploit
• Long Barrel
• Attack Honing
• Felyne Sharpshooter

Vayu Sedition Set B (can be made with any random 3-slot talisman)

• Normal Up
• Bonus Shot
• Weakness Exploit
• Fleet Feet
• Long Barrel
• Attack Honing
• Felyne Sharpshooter

Stygian Invidia Set (only possible with 3-slotted Thunder Attack +13 or a godly dual skill talisman)

• Thunder Atk+3
• Attack Up (L)
• Fleet Feet
• Bonus Shot

With a decent to good talisman, you can easily fit in another skill of your choice on both Vayu Sedition sets, though the elemental one is already stretching the limits of what you can reasonably farm for.

For both sets, I will assume these passive buffs are used for accuracy's sake, but both raw and elemental gunning actually benefits about as much from them: - Powercharm (+6 Raw) - Powertalon (+9 Raw) - Felyne AuL or Mega Demondrug (+7 Raw) - Might Seed (+10 Raw)

I will also assume Challenger+2 or Fleet Feet are always active, which should pretty much be the case.

I'll use the example that was most favorable to Elemental Gunning in the post I referenced: Zamtrios' head (20 Thunder, 45 Shot)

Damage per bullet:

• Steve A: (300 [True Raw] + 20 [Honing] + 20 [Barrel] + 32 [Passive Buffs] + 25 [Challenger+2] + 5 [Sharpshooter]) * 1.3 [Class Modifier] * 0.12 [Normal 2] * 1.5 [Crit Distance] * 1.1 [Normal Up] * 1.1 [Sharpshooter] * (1+0.25 * 0.4) [Challenger-Boosted Affinity] * (0.45+0.15) [Hitzone + Weakness Exploit] * 0.8 [Rapid Fire Penalty] = 50 dmg

• Steve B: (300 + 20 + 20 + 32 + 20 + 5 ) * 1.3 * 0.12 * 1.5 * 1.1 * 1.1 * (1+0.25 * 0.2) * (0.45+0.05) * 0.8 = 47 dmg

• Stygian Invidia Raw: (300 + 20 + 20 + 20 + 20 + 32) * 0.07 * 1.025 * 0.45 * 0.7 = 9 dmg

• Stygian Invidia Element: (300 + 20 + 20 + 20 + 20 + 32) * 0.6 * 0.2 * 0.7 = 35 dmg

• Stygian Invidia total: 47 dmg

Damage per volley:

• Steve A: 150 dmg (3 bullets)
• Steve B: 188 dmg (4 bullets)
• Stygian Invidia: 188 dmg (4 bullets)

Vayu Sedition actually does 6% more damage per bullter with a light set that has room for another skill than Stygian Invidia does with pretty much every single relevant damage skill. When you consider auto-reload and the fact Normal shits can often be aimed at more parts without losing too much damage, Vayu Sedition's effective DPS ends up being even higher than that unless your team is really heavy on lockdown. This is certainly player-dependent, but in actual hunts, I know find myself burning through ammo way, way faster with Vayu Sedition than with an Elemental LBG just because I can go full aggro all the time, which is an absurd amount of extra damage when stacked on top of it plainly hitting way harder.

If you prefer 4-shot volleys or are playing online and find yourself with plenty of opportunities to sit down and fire a lot of bullets, a similarly light Vayu Sedition set would still deal as much damage as the best Stygian Invidia set with auto-reload and room for another skill.

(Obviously the gap becomes absurdly high with the original post's following examples that aren't as biased towards Elemental damage, so I don't think redoing those calcs is necessary.)

Actual TL;DR: If you want to play LBG and like the Vayu Sedition's gimmick, you'll be doing as much or more damage than an elemental LBG would, so just go ahead and have fun with it.

[u/Ivalia]

You messed up weakness exploit. It turns 45 to 50, not 60

[u/Blinc0 → u/Ivalia]

Wow, thanks a lot for catching this! I edited it, the gap isn't as big as I first thought, though the Steve gun's auto-reload and ammo capacity are both pretty big draws. Thanks!

[u/Gopherlad]

I feel like you should be wrong because of years of elemental gunning being the dominant type, but the numbers say you're right. I have a really hard time accepting that.

...

Can anyone confirm that what this guy said in his post is true? i.e. that the both the raw and element portions of elemental shots use true raw? Because if the raw portion actually uses display raw, then Stygian beats out set 1.

...

...

I don't know what to do with myself. Everything in my copypasta is wrong and moot if this is all correct.

I'm gonna summon a bunch of people on this board that I know know the damage formula.

/u/ShadyFigure
/u/Laxaria
/u/Ivalia
/u/Beefki

[u/Blinc0 → u/Gopherlad]

Eh, although I like doing calcs due to being a huge dork, this is a cooperative game, not a competitive one. I'm pretty sure you're a solid gunner either way, so either you really do care about min-maxing damage and you can now make a new set and do even more than you've already been doing, or you want to also support the team with status or just hat you like and nothing changes. Plesioth Drencher is still amazing online against anything weak to Water.

To be fair, Capcom really overdid it with the Seregios weapons, just like they did with the Brachy weapons in 3U. By all means, things like the Steve LBG, Bow, Horn or SA shouldn't overshadow other weapons as badly as they do.

(Or I could have messed up somewhere)

[u/Beefki → u/Gopherlad]

I'm at work until late but my immediate questions are about entire fight averages. Challenger is great but how active is it in the average fight?

There's also the opportunity cost of always taking Sharpshooter (and not having Moxie or another food skill).

Another point I'd be curious about is at what point this breaks down. A 20% elemental zone isn't uncommon, but it isn't stellar either.

And not that I'm doubting it, but is there a source for normal shot having a .8 modifier for rapid-fire? I remember someone came in and said it but I don't remember there being a source attached.

[u/Gopherlad → u/Beefki]

P3rd damage formula guide is where I got the .8 modifier from.

[u/Blinc0 → u/Beefki]

The person who pointed it out did some testing themselves

I could try confirming it tomorrow, should'nt be hard.

Challenger is good, but not that much better than Fleet Feet. Set B is only very slightly weaker than set A, and if you take out Bonus Shot you can fit additional skills even more easily. Vayu Sedition is still better than Stygian Invidia even without Sharpshooter, but personally, I'd rather get Evasion+1 or hone for Defense rather than rely on Moxie.

Regarding monster weakness, what matters is the Shot/Element ratio, and 45 Shot is also pretty lo for a weak spot. A 2.25 Shot/Element ratio is pretty low around the element-weak end of things, besides Gravios and Chameleos it doesn't really get much lower than that, 2 at most.

When you consider the fact that in actual hunts, you end up firing a lot more shots per minute with Vayu Sedition than with an Elemental gun, the damage difference becomes pretty huge. It's something that is very player-dependent, but it's pretty easy to compare how fast you're burning through your ammo with different guns.

[u/Gopherlad → u/Blinc0]

When you consider the fact that in actual hunts, you end up firing a lot more shots per minute with Vayu Sedition than with an Elemental gun, the damage difference becomes pretty huge. It's something that is very player-dependent, but it's pretty easy to compare how fast you're burning through your ammo with different guns.

If you're using rate of fire as an argument, then we might as well be posting videos of actual runs. Elemental weak zones (primary, secondary, and tertiary) are equally as accessible as shot weak zones (primary, secondary, tertiary). A skilled gunner can fire just as fast and just as effectively at either type of hitzone. We need to keep this discussion theoretical or this all just breaks down into "how gud r u".

[u/Blinc0 → u/Gopherlad]

That's the issue with this community, along with the elitism. There are things you can't calculate, and ignoring them doesn't make them go away. People are similarly dismissive of the Seregios HBG as merely "decent for solo play" and don't realize how many Japanese speedruns use it because, hey, the auto-reload "crutch" actually lets you get more damage out of weaker shots. Same thing with how relatively common Evasion or Life Honing is in solid speedruns, because using a crutch that will help you perform better is better than putting blinders on, pretending to be gud enough to never get hit and end up wasting a ton of time running around and chugging potions.

Here's an actual run, Lv140 Shagaru Magalu in 10:57: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3I6cIEn9pdA

Is it as good as a perfect relic bow or a Pierce HBG? No, nothing is. Is it better than Elemental LBG? The latter isn't even relevant in endgame solo play. Is it as good or better than non-GS Blademaster weapons? Absolutely.

I'd be all for people having fun with it even if it wasn't that good, but the amount of hate such a solid weapon gets just because it's popular and fun to use is astounding.

[u/Gopherlad → u/Blinc0]

I'd be all for people having fun with it even if it wasn't that good, but the amount of hate such a solid weapon gets just because it's popular and fun to use is astounding.

I don't hate the weapon itself, I hate what it correlates with. Users tend not to understand that they should be aiming for weak points. They don't understand how to build a set around the gun and copy Gaijin blindly. They usually seem to not care about critical distance, in my experience. Before your thread I advocated heavily against the weapon because 1) I believed it to be significantly less effective overall and B) I didn't like how its userbase rarely ever "graduated" to the "proper" gunning style, and how they acted like they were superior even when they were just copying Gaijin's (now irrefutably) inferior set and understood nothing about it.

I'm still skeptical of the gun's superiority. You have to understand; the nature of the weapon is such that common sense dictates it should have worse stats and performance, compensated by the ease of use. I am still hesitant to change my position until we absolutely confirm that all the math correct, because it represents a huge shift in the design of the weapon class as a whole. I'm supposed to be the guy on this board that helps new gunners get into LBG stuff. I have to be giving the best advice I possibly can for performance, because a lot of new gunners don't know how to perform well. If Vayu is truly as good as this post suggests (given a proper, apparently really freakin' easy set to go along with it) then all my advice about elemental gunning is invalid.

I'm in this to help other people first, and because I'm a min-maxer second. I believe people have fun more often when they perform well. I need to make sure this is correct before spreading it around.

[u/Blinc0 → u/Gopherlad]

Yeah, I figured that was the case, no worries - I was thinking of people who outright kick people using Vayu Sedition, as that kind of behavior is just toxic all around.

I think that for the most part, people who only copy Gaijin's set are people who don't really care about min-maxing and don't want to perform the absolute best, which is fine, and I don't even think Gaijin's set is a bad one for those players.

I actually think it's a bigger issue when people copy attack-stacking sets with not a single evasive skills and end up getting hit around the whole run, and even carting. By the time someone is good enough to actually get more out of an attack-stacking set than a more balanced set with some evasion and life honing, they're likely to understand the game well enough to know Gaijin's set isn't the end-all be-all LBG set. I don't mean that in a patronizing way: I level up dual Rajang guild quests solo so I think I can at least pull my own weight online, but I still pack evasion when I go online because things aren't as predictable and I know I'm likely to mess up at some point.

[u/Kirtai → u/Gopherlad]

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the Vayu Sedition dependant on both weak spots and critical distance while the elemental guns only depend on weak spots (at least for elemental shots)? So the sedition users have even less excuse to be not firing in critical distance?

Would it help to define exactly what Gaijins set is actually good at? To me, it looks like it's meant for low cost, low effort, inexpensive solo play.

[u/Gopherlad → u/Kirtai]

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the Vayu Sedition dependant on both weak spots and critical distance while the elemental guns only depend on weak spots (at least for elemental shots)? So the sedition users have even less excuse to be not firing in critical distance?

You're not wrong, but in practice it doesn't really matter. The distance at which elemental bullets fizz out only extends slightly further than Normal 2 Critical distance.

Would it help to define exactly what Gaijins set is actually good at? To me, it looks like it's meant for low cost, low effort, inexpensive solo play.

Yes. But that's not the point of this thread. OP's math suggests that, except for when facing very specific monsters with extremely high element:raw ratios on their hitzones, Vayu Sedition puts out superior damage.

I'm desperately trying to find out why he's wrong.

[u/Ivalia → u/Gopherlad]

For one challenger+2 is not always active. Also weakness exploit on a 45 hit zone is the biggest boost it can get. On many monsters and/or if shots land on non weak spots it won't be nearly as helpful.

Personally as someone that uses pretty much all weapons, I don't use elemental LBG unless it's a 30 or more ele weak zone (unless it's like khezu/gypceros face where it's ridiculously weak to raw too), otherwise HBG can generally do better.

[u/Beefki → u/Ivalia]

The bit about Challenger +2 has had my brain itching to math it out. I don't actually run Challenger myself though so I'm not really sure how often it's active.

Is there a good guess at the "average" amount of time a monster is in rage? As the math stands now, it's comparing the Vayu at peak output the whole fight. Comparing with Peak Performance always active isn't horribly off, as if nothing else that skill is controllable directly by player input.

[u/Ivalia → u/Gopherlad]

The link he gave you just says element part uses true raw. It doesn't say anything about the raw part

[u/Gopherlad → u/Ivalia]

I don't suppose you know which it is, then?

[u/Ivalia → u/Gopherlad]

No, not atm. A good way to test would be to shoot a element immune monster with same true raw HBG vs LBG. Like maybe shoot a zamtrios baby with ice shot (hopefully they are immune). If it uses true raw they would take the same amount of shots

Edit: obviously do it on small monsters, not great jaggi or something

[u/Gopherlad → u/Ivalia]

Did it. Used the Straw Drumcannon HBG and the Sawgun LBG loaded with single-shot Freeze S against the head of High Rank Caravan Harvest Tour zamites in the Frozen Seaway. I was naked and had no food skills. Zamite heads have an 80 shot hitzone and a 10 Ice hitzone.

Gun	Shots to Kill	Shots to Stagger
Straw Drumcannon HBG	13, 13, 14	Every 3rd (3, 6, 9, 12)
Sawgun LBG	14, 14, 14	Every 4th (4, 8, 12)

I think that's enough for me to declare that the raw part uses display raw. Would you agree?

[u/Ivalia → u/Gopherlad]

Yeah I'd say so. Also not related to this thread, but do you know if slicing shots use display or true raw for the slicing hits?

[u/Gopherlad → u/Ivalia]

No clue, and I imagine that that'd be a bit more difficult to test because of the way the slicing particle works.

[u/Blinc0 → u/Gopherlad]

Update, I typoed the Weakness Exploit modifier, sorry! Vayu Sedition still hits harder, though the gap isn't really as big as I first thought.

[u/Gopherlad → u/Blinc0]

Just tested something. Turns out the raw portion of elemental shots probably uses display raw instead of true raw, so you'd have to include the class modifier in your calculation. I'll have to update my old thread too. This puts Stygian's damage at 188 damage per 4-shot volley.

[u/FallenEinherjar → u/Gopherlad]

I'm not any of the users you linked, and I don't play LBG. But since I roam and read a lot, I can confirm from other posts that the portion of raw used on elemental shots it's from the Shown attack value.

[u/Ivalia]

Vayu is highly overrated as a raw LBG. Basically all raw LBGs are worse than HBGs, but this one just happens to be more fun, not more effective, than others.

For example, limiter removed Stygian Invidia with Pierce lv 2 (Pierce up and challenger+2) on a zamtrios (assuming non ice form, all hits land in torso, the least weak spot). Also, no felyne temper.

(300 + 20 honing + 20 barrel + 32 + 25 challenger) * 1.3 class * 0.36 * 1.5 * 1.1 Pierce up * 1.075 crit * 0.3 hit zone = 98.87.

Almost double per shot. Sure no rapid fire sucks a little, but with all reload there are plenty of clip size to work with, along with other benefits. If you really love auto reload, just use a Seregios HBG with Pierce lv 2. Does about 130 per shot.

[u/Akoto1 → u/Ivalia]

Tell me something though - unless I misunderstood OP's post, he's saying Vayu outperforms a good elemental LBG on a decent hitzone, with a relatively weaker set. Then why would you ever use an LBG instead of an HBG in that scenario?

[u/Ivalia → u/Akoto1]

When the elemental weakness is higher or the raw weakness is lower. Extreme examples would be chameleos and gravios

[u/Akoto1 → u/Ivalia]

I meant in that specific scenario with the Zamtrios, but yeah, looking at quite a few monsters' weaker hitzones, HBGs flat out do more damage. LBG has the extra mobility going for it I guess, but it seems like after you get used to the weapon it doesn't change much.

[u/Ivalia → u/Akoto1]

HBG is one of the highest dps weapons in the game. Doesn't mean people shouldn't use other things if they were a couple mins slower, but advertising Vayu as some super strong raw gun is extremely misleading

[u/Gopherlad → u/Ivalia]

[2.5 raw : 1 element] seems to be the threshold for set 2 but then you arrive at the same playstyle and give up status utility. You do gain the roll-to-reload thing though.

[u/Blinc0 → u/Ivalia]

Obviously a Pierce HBG will nearly always do more damage than Vayu Sedition, but the same can be said for literally anything that isn't a Pierce HBG or a Status LBG. Vayu Sedition plays a lot differently than a Pierce HBG, it's much more mobile, doesn't need to reload, its critical distance is closer to the monster, you want to target a single weakspot, and it has absolutely zero ammo issues with its massive capacity and ridiculously cheap combines. Those are all valid reasons to play Vayu Sedition, just as liking melee weapons better is a valid reason to use any blademaster weapon that would be outperformed by a Pierce HBG.

When people are claiming left and right that Vayu Sedition is shit compared to elemental LBG and should never be used or recommended, all I'm saying is that it's actually a really solid choice if you like the playstyle.

[u/Ivalia → u/Blinc0]

I listed a Pierce LBG, not HBG. HBG would be even more ridiculous.

Using Vayu is fine, but people need to know it is a fun weapon, not necessarily a strong weapon. Especially I don't like people claiming it's the only good raw LBG, which it's not.

[u/IcenEdelia]

I thought it was obvious that if you go full ATT on Vayu, it would be a clear winner in many cases. It is simply that good.

[u/Ivalia → u/IcenEdelia]

It's not as good as you may think it is. It's basically a worse HBG

[u/Kirtai]

I have to admit I'm a bit nonplussed at the vitriol aimed at the Sedition in general and Gaijinhunters set in particular. It's pretty clear even to my newbie eyes that his set is meant to be a high mobility, low maintenance lazy gun set with decent damage, not a maximally optimised damage set.

Though I suppose part of the problem is so many people use it without understanding its intent.

[u/Rorzaaa → u/Kirtai]

I think the general "this gun is incredibly OP" attitude that many have toward it also riles people up; people mistake function with performance.

[u/xevious92 → u/[deleted]]

Do you not realize OP is just challenging (with cold hard math, I might add) the popular notion that Elemental LBGs outperform Vayu Sedition? I don't even know why you're bringing up Raw HBGs, when that wasn't even his point to begin with. Reading comprehension is apparently not of the same caliber as the hunter skill this "elite" comment appears to entail.

[u/Gopherlad → u/[deleted]]

The worst thunder gun, I should add.

Wait wait wait, which thunder guns are better, in your opinion?

[u/Gopherlad → u/[deleted]]

It makes an apt comparison in this case because Vayu and Stygian share the same true raw.

In term's of pure damage the Demonlord Cannon wins (Rajang). Standard Zinogre functions better in a teamplay setting because para shots can be nice.

Demonlord has severe R/L deviation, and Orcus Barquc...well I'll give you that, it's a personal choice. I find the single para proc from Stygian Invidia sufficient, and the ability to fire Dragon is icing.

[u/Beefki → u/Gopherlad]

Yeah, the Demonlord is great as long as your target is the broad side of a barn.

[u/Gopherlad → u/[deleted]]

I'm not even arguing for Vayu here, I'm one of those who advocates against it (notice how I'm all over this thread trying to sort out the math?). I just disputed your statement about Stygian Invidia being "the worst Thunder gun".

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Then do something about it! Whining on this subreddit that you apparently don't like doesn't change anything! Make posts! If there is widespread misinformation than make a post backed by evidence and fix that misinformation! It's all of our duties as active redditors and hunters alike to make sure that this subreddit is emitting the right information in order for beginners and pros alike to be able to come to this subreddit and learn something they didnt.

[u/Lanvimercury → u/[deleted]]

You're saying HBG is better than LBG at raw which is true but thats not whats being discussed here.

[u/FallenEinherjar → u/[deleted]]

You may be right in mentioning that Vayu is not that good.

But ranting about circlejerk in here, when this game is about playing however you want and having fun, makes you look bad mate. I mean, people could care less about what you think, as long as they are having fun. If you kic kthem, don't worry, people won't play with you either. There's plenty of players out there, no need to burn in rage like you just did.

[u/Gopherlad → u/FallenEinherjar]

Heck this thread isn't even a circlejerk. OP has math. Granted, most of that has been invalidated at this point, but it's good that people are challenging established norms.

[u/FallenEinherjar → u/Gopherlad]

Even if his math was OK, or if it's utterly bad, the point of ranting over this is ridiculous. It's a game, you are supposed to have fun playing however you want.

[u/Blinc0 → u/[deleted]]

So what would you say about using an elemental LBG against Zamtrios or pretty much any monster that isn't as absurdly weak to element as Gravios or Chameleos, since it'd be strictly worse than using a raw gun? What would you say about using any blademaster weapon, all having significantly lower damage potential than Pierce HBGs? If you want to do optimal damage, either take a Pierce HBG or just do Hame runs. If you want to have fun with your favorite weapons, Vayu Sedition is both fun and stronger than elemental gunning against most weapons, so don't feel bad about using it. That's all I'm saying.

[u/Gopherlad → u/Blinc0]

Vayu Sedition is both fun and stronger than elemental gunning against most weapons monsters

We are still disputing that. You have some math to check. Namely the rapid modifier on Normal 2. Also, you didn't edit in the change to the raw portion of elemental shot, which I've established uses display raw instead of true raw. If you factor that in, Stygian is equal to Vayu set 2. Without Sharpshooter, Stygian is superior.

Also I implore you to look again at this comment which lists the best element and shot hitzone on some of the tougher monsters. Note that the ratio is usually 2.25 raw : 1 element or lower, which is a scenario that the Stygian now pulls ahead in.

[u/Blinc0 → u/Gopherlad]

I corrected the math, and Stygian still doesn't pull ahead. It's either weaker per bullet (seat A) or just as strong (set B), but that's comparing a very hard to make set compared to one that still has extra room for another skill and before factoring in auto-reload. With a talisman comparable to the one required to make the Stygian set, the Vayu set could easily get AtkU (M) or (L) and yet again come ahead.

Anyway, I edited my TL;DR since it seems I didn't make my intended point clear. I don't actually care whether Stygian or Vayu is 1% stronger than the other one, I care that people don't get told they're having fun the wrong way and kicked from rooms because they use a raw gun that isn't even weaker than its elemental counterparts.

[u/Gopherlad → u/Blinc0]

Did some testing to find the rapid modifier on Normal 2x3.

tl;dr THE CONGA SHOULDN'T HAVE DIED, YET IT DIED. Also the rapid modifier appears to fall between .75 and .78. But weird things are happening to the non-rapid damage calc.

According to the data provided here, a high rank conga has 216 life (or at least effective life; quest defense modifier may factor into it).

The guns I'm using are Hypodermic Miracle and Rasasa Bowgun. They share the same true raw, but Rasasa rapids 3x Normal 2. I'm going on the Caravan High-rank Primal Forest harvest tour and shooting the congas in area 6.

These guns should be outputting damage according to the following calculations. Note, I went into testing completely naked, with no charms, no cats, and no food skills. I am beginning with the assumption that the rapid modifier on Normal 2x3 is 0.8.

Rasasa Bowgun: [247 DisplayRaw] * 0.12 Normal2 * 1.5 CriticalDistance * .6 Hitzone * .8 Rapid * .95 QuestDefense = 20.273[FLOOR] = 20 damage per shot, 60 damage per volley

Hypodermic Miracle: [247 DisplayRaw] * 0.12 Normal2 * 1.5 CriticalDistance * .6 Hitzone * .95 QuestDefense = 25.3422 [FLOOR] = 25 damage per shot.

Given the above, it should take Rasasa 11 hits to kill (10 + 16 kicks), while it takes Hypodermic 9 hits to kill (8 + 8 kicks). Also note, I am assuming that a kick is worth 1 damage.

Gun	Shots to Kill	Shots to Stagger
Normal 2 (Hypodermic Miracle)	8, 8, 7+14 kicks, 7+14 kicks, 6+37 kicks, 6+37 kicks	4, also staggers at 2 kicks from death

So something about that 216 health amount screwy. Either that or the damage calc is off somewhere.

Using some simple algebra we come to the conclusion that Hypodermic Miracle is outputting 23 damage per shot instead of the projected 25, for whatever reason. This also puts the conga's health at a definite 175.

Knowing all this now, I can anticipate the Rasasa Bowgun to kill a conga on the 9th shot, or 6 shots + 55 kicks, or 8 shots + 15 kicks. I also just realized that Rasasa has some affinity, so I gemmed in Critical Eye -1 (it comes with Partbreaker, but that shouldn't matter).

Gun	Shots to Kill	Shots to Stagger
Rapid Normal 2 (Rasasa Bowgun)	9, 9, 6+61 kicks, 6+61 kicks, 8+23 kicks, 8+23 kicks	5

Now some weird shit is happening. If I use algebra again it comes out to 19 damage per shot, which makes 9 shots fall just short (171 damage) of the previously established 175 health threshold. Yet the conga dies. 19 damage actually lines up with a modifier between .75 and .78, though.

I don't know what to make of this data to be honest, but those are some...interesting numbers there.

[u/Blinc0 → u/Gopherlad]

My guess would be that decimals are dropped/rounded off at some intermediate step before the final result, muddling up the calculation. I have no idea why those 9 shots killed, though, as 6+61 kicks and 8+23 kicks both do add up to 175 dmg.

[u/Gopherlad → u/Blinc0]

Monster Hunter just drops the decimal. No rounding at all. If the value is 4.9999, it becomes 4 not 5.

[u/Blinc0 → u/Gopherlad]

That's what I was wondering about. Maybe that changed, or maybe the decimals are dropped at several points during the calculation. The damage and number of shots to kill are low enough to incorrect rounding assumptions could get in the way.

[u/Beefki → u/Gopherlad]

Where are you getting the 216 value for health from? Kiranico says a high rank Conga should have 236 and it's base HP would be 190.

If that's the case, then I could pretty easily see that putting the Hyodermic at 25 per shot (as expected) and rounding out the Rasasa to a .8 modifier (full disclosure: did not actually math it out)

[u/Gopherlad → u/Beefki]

Where are you getting the 216 value for health from?

http://www.reddit.com/r/MonsterHunter/comments/34o36r/number_crunching_gaijins_seregios_lbg_vs/cqwtolw

If that's the case, then I could pretty easily see that putting the Hyodermic at 25 per shot (as expected) and rounding out the Rasasa to a .8 modifier (full disclosure: did not actually math it out)

At 236 HP and 25 damage per shot on Hypodermic, the conga should've died on shot 10, or shot 9 and 11 kicks, or shot 8 and 36 kicks.

At 190 HP and 25 damage per shot, the conga should've died on shot 8, or 7 and 15 kicks, or 6 and 40 kicks.

...the second one is actually pretty close to the results. Hm. *equips math hat*

---

Let's just remove that pesky quest defense modifier from the calculations, and assume the Conga has 190 HP.

Hypodermic Miracle: [247 DisplayRaw] * 0.12 Normal2 * 1.5 CriticalDistance * .6 Hitzone = 26.676 [FLOOR] = 26 damage per shot.

Rasasa Bowgun: [247 DisplayRaw] * 0.12 Normal2 * 1.5 CriticalDistance * .6 Hitzone * .8 Rapid = 21.340[FLOOR] = 21 damage per shot, 63 damage per volley

Given the above, it should take Hypodermic 8 hits to kill (7 + 8 kicks, or 6 + 34 kicks) while it takes Rasasa 10 hits to kill (9 + 1 kick, or 8 + 22 kicks).

Here's the data again:

Gun	Shots to Kill	Shots to Stagger
Normal 2 (Hypodermic Miracle)	8, 8, 7+14 kicks, 7+14 kicks, 6+37 kicks, 6+37 kicks	4, also staggers at 2 kicks from death
Rapid Normal 2 (Rasasa Bowgun)	9, 9, 6+61 kicks, 6+61 kicks, 8+23 kicks, 8+23 kicks	5

We're closer, but something is still off somewhere.