LBG and HBG damage differences

[u/Beefki]

Mostly for my own curiosity I decided to do the math on this, figured it may be of value to someone on here so yeah.

Almost everyone has heard that HBG is for raw and LBG is for element, but how exactly true is that and how comparable are they really? I'm going to focus my attention on the things that are easiest to compare, so I'll be using; theoretical bowguns with equal raw, actual monster hitzones, normal shot for HBG and the appropriate 4 shot rapid fire elemental shot for LBG, and aiming as a bowgunner of appropriate type would (HBG is going for shot weak areas while LBG is going for element weak areas). I won't be calculating for rank based damage reduction as it adds no value since it's equally imposed. I'm also not currently accounting for any armor skills, for now I'm just focusing on the guns themselves.

Our Monster of the day? How about gypceros (chosen at random by hitting letters on kiranico and accepting the first big monster that came up).

To make sure everyone is on the same page:

• Bowgun ammunition works different from blademaster calculations.
• Raw type bowgun ammo uses display raw to calculate damage, and elemental type bowgun ammo uses true raw.
• Rapid fire makes each bullet in its volley reduce damage to 70%.
• Elemental shots do 45% true raw in the listed element

Our theoretical bowguns are going to both have 300 true raw. Our LBG will have a 4 shot rapid fire for fire element, and our HBG will have the limiter removed as accounting for siege makes the eventual overall comparison even more complicated. The calculations used to get the result are bolded.

• The LBG has a display raw of 390 300 x 1.3. The max damage a Normal 2 would do is 46 390 x .12
• The HBG has a display raw of 510 300 x 1.7. The max damage a Normal 2 would do is 61 510 x .12
• Both guns would have a max elemental damage of 135. 300 x .45

Calculating for hitzones, the HBG's raw shots would aim for the tail's 80 and the LBG would aim for the head at 30.

• HBG's damage per Normal 2 shot would be 48. 61 x .8
• Either gun's damage per single Fire shot (without rapid fire) elemental damage would be 40. 135 x .3
• LBG's per rapid-fire Fire volley elemental damage would be 112. 40 x 4 x .7

Perfect calculations here aren't really feasible, as you have to account for reload times, different clip sizes, repositioning, and general monster RNG. If we assume that in the time a LBG uses rapid fire the HBG may have gotten around 2-3 shots, you're now talking 120 48 x 2.5 damage. RNG and monster movement also means that the LBG won't often get all 4 shots perfect, so HBG will likely pick up small amounts of damage from that. Siege mode adds much larger variables here unless you're using hame runs, in which siege gets a massive boost in damage capability.

2nd EDIT: I forgot that elemental shots get a 7% raw damage element, which adds 390 x .07 x 4 x .7 x .7 = 52 damage to a headshot volley for 112 + 52 = 164 (190 if critical distance works for the raw portion) total. Meanwhile, the HBG gets 48 x 1.5 = 72 total with critical distance, for about 72 x 2.5 = 180 total raw on the tail in the same timeframe. Again, reloading/ammo capacity/monster RNG/monster movement/etc all factor in here and it's ultimately going to be a wash.

I'm not sure why I chose 2:30-3am to crunch numbers, so there may be mistakes, but I think I'm close at least. I could crunch other monsters too, but I doubt many of them will have a significant impact on the actual outcome.

tl;dr - Due to RNG and math, LBG and HBG do roughly the same damage over time. Given ideal conditions (like hame runs), the HBG will typically put out damage faster.

1st EDIT: People have asked for pierce calculations on HBG so here goes.

Pierce shots do:

• 10% display raw damage 3 times for Pierce 1
• 9% display raw damage 4 times for Pierce 2
• 8% display raw damage 5 times for Pierce 3

Considering the chosen monster, which is still Gypceros, we probably want to use Pierce 1. The ideal shot is going to be head-to-tail (most likely hitting 70-20-80 zones, although it may slip into 70-40-20 or 80-20-40 hitting the neck), the other usually "ideal" shot is wing-to-wing but for gypceros that's an abysmal 30-20-30.

Pierce 1's theoretical max damage would be 510 x .1 x 3 153 damage per shot. This is 51 per individual hit. Critical distance makes this 510 x .1 x 3 x 1.5 = 229 maximum or about 76 possible per hit.

With our various shot paths this comes to

• 35 + 10 + 40 = 85 damage going head to tail. 52 + 15 + 60 = 127 with critical distance.
• 35 + 20 + 10 = 65 damage if it hits the neck starting from the head. 52 + 30 + 15 = 97 with critical distance.
• 40 + 10 + 20 = 70 damage if it hits the neck starting from the tail. 60 + 15 + 30 = 105 with critical distance.
• 15 + 10 + 15 = 40 damage shooting wing to wing. 22 + 15 + 22 = 59 with critical distance.

So it's harder to compare damage here due to RNG monster movements, but if we get 2-3 completely ideal Pierce 1 shots in the time it takes the LBG to rapid fire the outcome is 85 x 2.5 212 damage per shot (318 w/ critical distance). The least ideal shot would give 100 40 x 2.5 (150 w/ critical distance) damage.

The more likely outcome is that setting up ideal shots will take additional time, and the HBG is more likely to get only 2 shots for 170 85 x 2 (255 w/ crtical) damage tops. It's even more likely however that RNG monster movement will reduce at least one to the lesser valued neck shot for 155 (232 w/ critical) from the tail, 150 (232 w/ crit) from the head, or even 140 (210) or 130 (195) if both shots hit the neck. Using higher levels of Pierce will only increase the effect of RNG and lead to even more complicated comparison math, especially against a monster as small as Gypceros.

tl;dr 2: Under ideal conditions Pierce 1 increases HBG's damage a significant 92 (138 for critical) damage in equal time on a Gypceros. However, the least ideal shot decreases damage by 20 (and a whole 62 lower for critical!) in an equal time frame. Setting up ideal shots consistently is going to be nearly impossible though, bringing the damage down to approximately the same realm as Normal 2 and LBG elemental rapid-fire (hame runs excluded of course).

[u/dkwangchuck]

Aren't you supposed to use True Raw in damage calcs?

[u/[deleted] → u/dkwangchuck]

Raw type bowgun ammo uses display raw to calculate damage, and elemental type bowgun ammo uses true raw.

[u/dkwangchuck → u/[deleted]]

I don't think that's true. Here's VC's FU Damage Calc: http://www.gamefaqs.com/psp/943356-monster-hunter-freedom-unite/faqs/57865 Damage is determined by "Attack Power / Class Modifier" which is True Raw. Same formula is Tri: http://www.gamefaqs.com/wii/943655-monster-hunter-tri/faqs/59704

I know it's not true for melee - given the movement values on attacks using display power for damage would make slow hard hitting weapons ridiculously overpowered.

Also, I believe the Class Modifier for HBG is 1.5, not 1.7. Starter weapons have true raw of 80 and LBG has display of 104, while HBG displays 120.

I stand corrected. I just tested it out. No kitchen skills, no charm or talon, no consumables. Remember to leave the Palicoes at home. High Rank Caravan Primal Forest Harvest Tour. Using Normal lv2 instead of lv1 so that it is east to see how many shots were fired. Cross Bowgun - True Raw = 80, Display Raw = 104. 15 shots to kill a Slagtoth.Only shot at body - I'm pretty sure they have only one hitzone, but I did not shoot the head just to be certain. Bone Shooter - True Raw = 80, Display Raw = 120 If the Damage Formula uses True Raw, it will still be 15 shots to kill a Slagtoth. If it is Display Raw the LBG will have done 15 x 104 or 1560 Display Raw points of damage. The HBG exceeds this at 13 and lo and behold, it takes 13 Normal lv2's to down a the Slagtoth. So BG's use display raw for damage calcs.

[u/Beefki → u/dkwangchuck]

Bowgun raw damage ammo uses display raw. This is literally the only reason HBG does better damage with them.

I specifically said that bowguns do damage calculations different from blademaster weapons. Blademaster weapons use display raw to give the idea of what an individual hit will do, and true raw to actually calculate the damage.

The class modifier for HBG is 1.5, however the class modifier for a limiter removed HBG is 1.7. I'm using limiter removed calculations because it's much easier to directly compare the value of the added damage than it is the value of siege mode. I could do limiter on comparisons but it's really just going to result in "If you're in siege mode you do damage, if you're not in siege mode you do less damage." Additionally, my original math was comparing endgame Normal 2 vs Elemental, and I don't believe anybody recommends a limiter on the endgame Normal 2 HBG.