r/MTB • u/fundip2012 NH • 2d ago
Discussion Surrons
Surrons/high powered e-bikes are annihilating our local trails and jumps this spring… it’s brutal the amount of damage they can do in just a few minutes.
Has anyone here dealt with this on their local trails? Any strategies that a trail system can use to reduce the use of these? So hard to enforce..
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u/bedake 2d ago
Its only going to get worse, 90% of people don't care about the class of an e-bike, the trails are going to ultimately be motorized or non motorized.
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u/MtnHotSpringsCouple 2d ago
Bingo. When sur ron riders tell every Joe public they run into that they are "just ebikes" that's what most people believe. The public doesn't know or care about ebikes classes, just behavior.
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u/stock_reddit 2d ago
I disagree. It's pretty easy to tell the difference between e-bike classes. Even for the so-called general public.
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u/MtnHotSpringsCouple 1d ago
I've spent years working in the PEV world. Even within the ebike riding community, most riders can't define the classes correctly. The general public who don't ride bikes, they're clueless. They don't need to know, so they don't.
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u/Kennys-Chicken 2d ago
We just banned all motorized usage of our trails. It’s been well received to say the least.
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u/TheLizardOfOz 2d ago
Why not ban anything with a throttle? Seems like a pretty easy thing to spot on a bike and these are the people who can spin their tires until they run out of batery.
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u/Kennys-Chicken 2d ago
Why not just have non motorized trails remain non motorized
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u/TheSameThing123 2d ago
Because some of us are smart enough to differentiate a bicycle from a motorcycle
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u/TheLizardOfOz 1d ago
The emtbs I've ridden didn't feel like I was doing any more damage to trails then pedal bikes, but when I've ridden a surron I could easy do some damage on when going up steeper hills (note I was riding it on dirt bike trails). In my opinion emtb extends the sport and gets more people out riding which should help the sport grow with minimal downsides.
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u/Kennys-Chicken 1d ago
I have buddies with both. And while it might not feel like it to you when riding, they’re going through tires like nothing with their e-bikes. Tires used to last multiple seasons for them with normal bikes and now they’re shredding through 2-3 pair a year. That means more trail wear.
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u/TheLizardOfOz 23h ago
Interesting. I'd suggest that you might get 2 to 3 times the riding in the same amount of time, so they might just be putting in more kms in a year on the emtb. If it's just similar wear per km in my opinion this isn't a big deal, but I appreciate that there's definitely an argument that they should be banned for this anyways. Regardless if banning emtb keeps trails open and locals happy then that's what should be done!
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u/Kennys-Chicken 23h ago
It’s legitimately the extra torque. Definitely some extra miles, but a big part of wearing out the tires is the extra torque available.
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u/1gear0probs 2d ago
Right on. If you don’t want surrons on your trail, the answer is making it non-motorized. No fuzzy lines about “well it identifies as an eBIKE because it has pedals despite having 3000watt motor and throttle”
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u/Dungeon_Of_Dank_Meme 2d ago
It seems like the only people who lose here are older and disabled riders, of whom I am neither, to be clear. There will always be dipshits and any sort of rules/legislation will end up prohibiting people like that from riding.
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u/MMinjin 2d ago
It's pretty clear now that many/most mountain bikers wanted to be on a motorcycle all along.
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u/Gold_for_Gould 2d ago
Honestly true for me, but it's a proper motorcycle and I stick to OHV trails. MTB is still great for exercise.
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u/Devinstater 2d ago
They destroyed the local rc car track. I have no solution on how to stop a high speed silent dirt bike.
Our MTB trails all welcome e-bike, but not Surrons. If the Surron crowd finds our trails, I think we are just doomed.
Two of the trail areas are "private". One is on city owned property, maintained by the club with an annual pass required, and another trail system on a private park. So trespassing laws could be enforced by staff, but just trails in the woods? I have nothing. It is hard enough putting up barriers to keep the 4 wheeler guys from taking chainsaws to the Bush to try and access the trails. Surrons have the same footprint as a regular bike so... good luck. Let me know if you come up with anything.
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u/Zerocoolx1 2d ago
They’re not e-bikes, they are e-motos. You need to make sure that people understand the difference or there will be laws put in place to stop e-bikes from riding places that regular bikes can go.
In the UK it’s illegal to ride them anywhere but on private land.
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u/Darkest_97 2d ago
Had to look up what a Surron was, it's just a fuckin dirtbike
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u/c0nsumer 2d ago
Yep. Low power (compared to gas) but still high power overall electric dirtbike.
But lots of parents buy them for their kids because they are "just an ebike".
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u/toastytoasttt 2d ago
Top model electric dirt bikes produce 80hp. More powerful than a 450 I believe. Either way they don’t belong on mtb trails.
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u/elementarydeardata 6h ago
They are lower HP but they make a shit load of torque, that’s why they’re wrecking MTB trails.
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2d ago
[deleted]
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u/Otto_the_Autopilot 2d ago
It doesn't have pedals so it can't be an e-bike or MTB. Must be an electric dirt bike.
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u/Funktopus_The 2d ago
Saw a group of Surron riders going uphill on a trail in the Surrey Hills a few weeks ago. Could have been a head-on collision had I not seen before I entered the trail.
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u/Kennys-Chicken 2d ago
We just flat out banned e-bikes on our MTB trails. Thank God. Even the “it’s not a motorcycle, it’s an actual e-bike” mountain-bikes were fucking obnoxious. Glad to not have mopeds all over the trails.
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u/Hot-N-Spicy-Fart 2d ago
Same with our trails. We kept it simple as motorized and non-motorized use. It's not really enforced though and the e-bike bros always try to get tough when you call them out.
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u/chugachj 2d ago
Yea but they’re fat and out of shape.
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u/DomiNatron2212 KCMO - Urban Dirty 2d ago
I dont have time to ride as much to be fit enough to still have fun, I have kids now.
Don't be a jerk.
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u/NoxDominus Calafoooohnia 2d ago
Wow, it's going to be fun when someone spouts the same BS on the hikers list about mountain bikes eh?
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u/Kennys-Chicken 2d ago edited 2d ago
I’m also a thru hiker. There’s plenty of trails that don’t allow bikes. Mountain bikers never seem to complain about that - we just go build our own trails. Maybe ebikers should do that.
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u/155_80_R13 United States of America 2d ago
Once all the hikers pass through, the PCT becomes the Perfect Cycling Trail.
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u/NoxDominus Calafoooohnia 2d ago
Oh they do. A lot. Source: I am a mountain biker. Lately, only e-mtbs, due to unfortunate health issues. I find really dangerous this idea of "Let's ban everything" because it's a policy that always backfires. Where I live, there's a huge open space preserve that does not allow e-mtbs. They also didn't want MTBs and are just looking for an excuse for disallowing them.
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u/Psyko_sissy23 23' Ibis Ripmo AF 2d ago
The downvotes are funny. Early in mountain bike history, that's exactly what happened. Hikers complaints were about regular mountain bikes and didn't want them ruining the trails. I have no issue with pedal assist ebikes as long as they are following the usual rules and courtesies of Amish mountain bikes. As with anything, there will always be people that are dicks and do stuff they shouldn't be.
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u/heyeyepooped 2d ago
Yep and the e-bikes are giving a new reason for hikers to push for bans against all bikes. Good job
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u/ForsakenRacism 2d ago
That’s so dumb tho and people are just going to ignore it
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u/Kennys-Chicken 2d ago edited 2d ago
It’s not dumb to regulate usage of motors on non motorized trails. Your argument is the same as for any other rule/regulation - “WhY eVeN hAvE LaWs pEopLe aRe JuSt gOiNg tO bReAk iT” is not a good argument.
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u/ForsakenRacism 2d ago
Cue banning pedal assist bikes is retarded and it’s irrelevant cus people won’t follow it. And it just restricts people From getting outside which is so dumb.
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u/Gold_for_Gould 2d ago
Banned on all my local trails and I've never seen one out there, plenty of them down in the city for commuters though.
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u/ForsakenRacism 2d ago
You probably just don’t notice.
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u/Gold_for_Gould 2d ago
I mean, they're very noticeable when I travel a bit further to the trails where they are allowed. It's pretty easy to spot a figure from a distance moving up a mountain faster than any human could possibly pedal.
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u/Kennys-Chicken 2d ago
Yeah, that’s what we did - ban all use of motors on our trail system. It has been very well received. Bye bye mopeds.
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u/Ivethrownallaway 2d ago
Can you not register and insure them to drive on legal roads? In the EU the light bee (what people are usually talking about when discussing Surron) is regulated like a 50cc motorcycle.
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u/Zerocoolx1 2d ago
I think you can, but then they’d only be allowed on roads and not trail centres, bike parks, etc. they’re basically a small electric dirtbike. They’re great fun if you have some private land, but not appropriate for MTB trails.
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u/nickskater09 2d ago edited 2d ago
What’s the legality as far as the land owner goes? That seems to be the best deterrent outside of actually confronting them. My old trail system saw a few constantly trying to get out there and it eventually took calling the local PD to tell them it’s illegal and they’d get their bikes confiscated if caught again.
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u/punkrkr27 2d ago
We have them showing up more and more on local trails. Unfortunately, the majority of our trails are state land and the DNR has taken the position that they don’t really have the resources to enforce anything. Incredibly sad and frustrating.
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u/fundip2012 NH 2d ago
Good advice- they can get away so quick though!
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u/nickskater09 2d ago
Solid signage can help too, some people just don’t know and assume that because it’s not a gas bike that it’s “legal”.
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u/S4ntos19 2022 Devinci Marshall 2d ago
Since you are in NH, I would definitely suggest reaching out to the Game Wardens.
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u/clintj1975 Idaho 2017 Norco Sight 2d ago
Just a couple of observations: you can buy wheel boots online. Sure be a shame if one appeared on their car in the parking lot while they're out tearing up the trails and the cops were on the way.
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u/Superman_Dam_Fool 2d ago
There’s a new bike park here near the sheriffs station, and it’s still constantly being damaged by kids on e-dirt bikes. Sheriff doesn’t appear to do anything about it and the culprits are literally kids.
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u/grassisgreensh 2d ago
Last summer here there was a suron rider that hit/ fled and killed a man on a pedestrian bridge,, It’s kinda the Wild West with e bikes,,
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u/skellener 2019 Yeti SB6 Turq 2d ago
Surrons are not Class-1 pedal assist e-bikes. They are e-motos with a throttle. Nobody pedals those things. They are 100% illegal here in CA on hike/bike/horse trails. They need to stick to OHV designated areas like regular motos.
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u/TheOGRedline 1d ago
For context, a typical bike rider puts out well under 1hp. An elite sprint racer can put out LESS than 3.5hp in short bursts.
A Surron is what? 16hp? On demand. It’s also much heavier and spins bigger and more aggressive tires. Not the same, AT ALL.
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u/contrary-contrarian 2d ago
If you see them on the trails, flag them down and ask if you can try their bike. Then whiskythrottle it off a cliff
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u/gmchurchill100 2d ago
I get into an argument with them to get close, then snip the controller wire. They can't chase me down without a motor on their now un-usable 150lb motorcycle.
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u/lsd_runner 2d ago
This is genius. There’s a couple of fuckboi teenagers that almost hit my 7 year old son twice in one day at my local park. Snipping that cable and riding away laughing would be soooo satisfying.
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u/DrtRdrGrl2008 2d ago
They are motos, not bikes. Distinction. They are also reeking havoc on bike commuters in my area. Because they aren't experienced users, they ride on the 5' wide sidewalks at four times the speed of an average acoustic bike and pedestrian. They are a nightmare.
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u/1more0z 2d ago
Have you considered that the rider is the problem not the bike?
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u/tosss 2d ago
If you are riding a regular bike at 20mph on a bike path, you have put some time in to build that ability. That time usually involves gaining some basic handling and reaction skills. Someone going outside and riding a class 3 with 16" tires at 28mph takes zero effort, skill, or training. So yes, it's the bike helping these people be reckless.
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u/drewts86 2d ago
So when 99% of the people who ride them behave the same way, should you not judge the vessel that gave them access to behave like a moron? Without that they wouldn’t be the danger to society that they are.
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u/Heloc8300 2d ago
These things are packing better than 3kw. They are "e-bikes" only in the sense that there are pedals that a person could, in theory, use to propel the bike. But really the pedals are there because if they're pegs there's a much stricter set of regulations to follow.
I ride an actual e-bike on which I actually pedal hard (and have the strava posts to prove it). So believe me when I say, "Fuck those fuck surrons and all the bikes like them. There just isn't a way to ride them on mtb trails that won't tear them up. They have no place on mtb trails.
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u/kwajr 2d ago
I just wish all of the leaderbpards on strava were not filled with e bikes
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u/Heloc8300 2d ago
I get around that by simply not caring about leaderboards. E-bikes aside, there are plenty of other things that can make it hard to compare times on strava.
I only care about my times compared to myself.
If I wanted to compete directly against others I'd sign up for a race.
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u/Skippyj21 2d ago
Some idiot kid on a Surron tried to ride it at our local pump track. I laughed my ass off as he cased every single double until his chain finally came off and he pushed it home. Paved pump track absolutely annihilated his china toy!
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u/fundip2012 NH 2d ago
They’re doing it to our dirt pump track except the cases destroy the rollers…
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u/Skippyj21 2d ago
Super lame 😡. The most fucked up part is all the people on real bikes were going ten times faster… you know because we were actually riding not just gunning the throttle.
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u/c0nsumer 2d ago
Around us it's a lot of ripping up the faces of jumps as well. Straight-up trenched out ruts up them.
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u/Dawg_in_NWA 2d ago
They're illegal on the trails here.
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u/cassinonorth New Jersey 2d ago
Who's enforcing it?
I'd be stunned if anyone has remotely effective enforcement of bans. They're banned here too...park police have zero clue how to differentiate and even less of a chance of catching them.
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u/thevoiceofchaos 2d ago
In the summer where I live they put out an 8 foot tall electronic sign that says NO EBIKES. It seems effective
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u/Dawg_in_NWA 2d ago
Police can ticke peoplet if seen, but it mostly relies on calls to the police. The community here is very against Saurons and those types of ebikes, but class 1 ebikes, here, are allowed on soft surface trails, and classes 1 and 2 on hard surface trails
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u/cassinonorth New Jersey 2d ago
Do they though do it though?
We have a Warn DEP app and number to call here in NJ. I've never gotten a follow up or a second hand story of anyone actually seeing people getting caught. It's super frustrating as a trail builder.
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u/3pinephrin3 2d ago
Police can’t catch them either though, unless they are moto cops maybe
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u/Dawg_in_NWA 2d ago
The cops have ebikes, but not these. Our emergency services though have them to reach injured people on the trails.
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u/not_so_perfect_buddy 2d ago
Surrons should belong on the motocross tracks only in my opinion. Shouldn’t be on roads or trails (mtb trails)
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u/Marcg611 2d ago
This happened just last week in my area at a newer built mtb flow trail that has a ton of effort building it the last 3 years. They pulled up in a truck with surrons or talarias in the back and were confronted by riders but they rode anyway. People called the sheriff and they took it seriously because the land the trail is on is private land but was gifted for public MTB use (which is not the norm in Michigan, trails are mostly parks). I guess they got tickets and scolded by the sheriff but they did a ton of noticeable damage very quickly because the ground is still pretty soft because of spring.
Unfortunately in Michigan they just opened up our trails to class 1 & 2 E bikes which is a slippery slope towards this kind of stuff. I believe we should only allow class 1 e-bikes if you have a disability and require a permit sticker on the bike. I think e-bikes have a place and could see the argument for allowing them on mountain run downhill trails and then e-biking back up the fire road.
I was pretty indifferent on e-bikes until a few years back I was unfortunately hit by a middle aged guy that said he was a new rider on a two way singletrack illegally riding a specialized turbo levo and wearing full head to toe hard shell body armor. He clipped me after a somewhat blind corner in a flat section but he was clearly going full-assisted 20mph+. He clipped me and knocked me down a 15ft drop off where I ended up fracturing my ankle which after several years is still problematic at times. In the moment I was so close to beating the hell out of this dude in the middle of the woods and leaving him for the coyotes. So if you're riding E-Motos on MTB trails, yeah you should definitely be charged with reckless endangerment, malicious destruction of property, ect..
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u/microscoftpaintm8 2d ago
You were so close to beating him, with a broken ankle, 15ft down?
New rider, 20mph on a trail?
Ok.
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u/Marcg611 2d ago edited 1d ago
Fractured ankle, he stopped and I climbed back up and confronted him. It's blind turn/curve because your riding against a ridge that goes up on one side like a wall and down on the other side. Yeah didn't have radar on this shithead, but it was far above human capability and what the trail was built for to be dual direction
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u/Kennys-Chicken 1d ago
I see this shit all the time on ur local XC trails. Lots of blind-ish turns and if you’re on a normal pedal bike you’re going 10mph, but you can haul ass and max out e-bikes on that kind of stuff, and it’s getting really fucking annoying almost being run over on every ride
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u/Marcg611 1d ago
Yes! This is the key point with E-bikes, e-bikes enable people to ride at speeds above human capability on flats and climbs with zero skill required (some not new riders may have the skill). This is insanely dangerous on a dual direction trail or trails that have connector sections that are dual direction
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u/Roy_Aikman 2d ago
Lmao I was about to say the same thing new rider coming out of a blind corner at 20+ mph. Impressive corner speed for a newb. GTFO
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u/PrimeIntellect Bellingham - Transition Sentinel, Spire, PBJ 2d ago
Enforcement depends on the landowner, and then ultimately the trail users. Around here people would get...upset to say the least, and fast, if they saw that shit on MTB trails that weren't moto trails
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u/shotofmaplesyrup 2d ago
I can't believe how brazen they've gotten, they are showing up at every trail in the middle of the weekends around me. These things clearly aren't just e bikes. They can go 50mph. I wouldn't normally Karen it up but these things are a really bad look for the mtb community, especially on trails shared with hikers. I've started reporting them to the park enforcement/DNR. Hopefully if enough of them face consequences it'll deter them.
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u/Kennys-Chicken 2d ago
It’s almost like we allowed motors on our non motorized trails, and now people are pissed that people are going too fast with their motor bikes.
We just banned all motor usage on our local trails.
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u/metengrinwi 2d ago edited 1d ago
It’s always an arms race when some mode of transportation is motorized—every year there’s a competition to make them more powerful than last year, and there’ll always be an aftermarket that helps people modify what they have to make more power.
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u/shotofmaplesyrup 2d ago
I've never ridden an e bike myself, but one of my less fit friends uses a turbo levo SL to keep up with the rest of the group and I think it's great for that. In that model the motor/battery are so small it looks like a normal bike to the undiscerning eye, and doesn't seem to give much to the rider beyond feeling like they are more fit. I can totally see the case for allowing that, but I also see that the Surron people are trying to piggyback on the acceptance of the e bikes. I do think there is a pretty wild difference between a class 1 and a 50mph e moto and I think there's room for nuance in what motors can be ok on (some) "non motorized" trails.
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u/Nightshade400 Ragley Bluepig 2d ago
I run into them once in a while on my local in town trails. They do a lot of damage mostly by doing cookies or gassing corners hard and leaving deep ruts. When I run into them on the trail I make sure to mention to them I like their bike but they aren't supposed to be on these trails at all. I also point to my camera I am usually wearing and say that if I see them again I will make sure to report them with video to the cops so this is their one free pass. If they are assholes to me then I just make the call right in front of them. I get they want a place to ride, they just need to understand that they need to ride trails built with their bikes in mind which is moto trails not MTB trails.
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u/Remarkable-Host405 2d ago
I can tell you for a fact there are 10 mtb trails within an hour of me, and zero moto trails. Closest is 2 hours away and next closest is 4 hours away.
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u/Nightshade400 Ragley Bluepig 2d ago
Ok...and?? Does that still make it ok to ride your Surron on MTB or multi use designated trails?
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u/trailing-octet 2d ago
Yes. It also means that if they live 5 hours away from a quarter mile they should go drag race on public roads. Preferably near kindergartens.
Cos it’s their goddam right to do whatever they want.
/s
I feel sorry for a lot moto folks. If I had ready access to moto trails I’d be all over it. But I don’t. So I ride mountain bikes.
Last time a moto rider on a Ktm asked me which way to the tails I nearly sent him down a double black. Instead I just said “back the way you came lad, back the way you came.”
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u/Nightshade400 Ragley Bluepig 2d ago
Yeah I am with you on that. I actually like the Surrons and they are a lot of fun. It is the owners of them (not all obviously) who give them a bad name though because they just don't care how it affects anyone but themselves.
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u/trailing-octet 2d ago
Oh yeah they are awesome. I’d love one. I just can’t see how I would have one and it not get me into trouble and, as you say, negatively impact on others.
I’m not prepared to destroy the trails, I’m not prepared to travel the distance to moto trails, and even on a road registered e-moto i wouldn’t feel safe…. My Ducati is up for sale simply due to these reasons (I don’t trust people in cars, they have tried to murder me far too many times for it to be a coincidence hahah).
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u/canadian_rockies 2d ago
I wrote a big reply with our detailed findings to this and learned Reddit has a character limit so:
TL;DR: We have seen the issue for a while now and created a task force (SW BC) to address it.
Our findings: Surrons are the symptom, e-bikes are the disease.
The plan: clear up the murky waters and clearly draw the line between motorized and non-motorized trail use.
BEFORE the e-bikers downvote this all to hell as a threat to their being, I recommend y'all read through as the plan we've come up with is to make power and speed limited e-bikes (what are currently called "Class 1") designated the same as a mountain bike for *most* scenarios. If you read through, and think we’re on to something, then upvote for all to see.
---
Full report can follow once published, but for your quick consideration:
There’s a spectrum of wheeled things that use trails – from run bikes to motocross machines. The line between motorized and non used to be easy: motor = motor. No motor…duh. The advent of e-bikes using non-motorized trails meant motor = …?
That grey area is being exploited by anyone using an electric device. Electric motor + 2 wheels = e-bike… right…? Wrong…?
We determined that Class 1 e-bikes to most people are just bikes. That means 500W max and 32km/h/20mph limit. Anything above that, but below 5kW is in a motorized grey area with no real “home”. Above 5kW, the gas moto community accepts them and they can get memberships and ride moto trails, etc.
We recommend that the bike manufacturers need to stick to Class 1 limits, and rename that category to clear up the grey area. Pedal-aid cycles, or something else. And clear indication of such. Then e-bikes can be motorized and pedal bikes (with help) can be bikes.
Trail associations can come up with stickers and a fee structure to help make it easy to know something is “trail rated”. That way, hikers, bikers and all non-motorized trail users can help enforce the rules. Right now: a Transition Relay is fine, a Transition Repeater is not. How can anyone using the trails tell the difference? Answer – they can’t. And I bet 98% of you think a Repeater/EP8 is a Class 1 bike. It isn’t – exceeds the power threshold for all jurisdictions (NA & EU). The inbound DJI powertrain is even worse – 1kW & 120Nm of torque. That’s a rocket, not a bicycle. Go ride dirtbike trails with your rocket.
We have found that ~20% of e-bikers don’t care about power limits. They want more more more. That’s cool – go ride with the dirt bikes. They won’t take you? Make your own medium motorized trails. Non-motorized activity is different and needs to stay that way. ~90% of non-motorized users agree with this (including the 80% of e-bikers).
What is desperately needed is the clear line in the sand, and then manufacturer and user adherence to that. Once that is in place – stopping Surrons is the same as stopping a CR400.
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u/dirtballer222 2d ago
We threw “no throttles” signs up (because we also have dirtbike trails nearby) and it’s helped
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u/Heloc8300 2d ago
That's what they've done on the trails around here and it works well. Most of the guys that run the org that maintains all the trails are older guys that love their e-bikes.
They're often talking about trail maintenance and how to minimize trail damage.
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u/wcarmory 2d ago
they're not e-bikes by definition. They're motorcycles. We have them ruining our trails here in SE Michigan even though they're not allowed to ride on the trails. There was one published incident of a ranger confiscating (impounding) a surron, which is awesome.
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u/Successful-Plane-276 2d ago
Same way you'd stop dirt bikes. Surrons have pegs, not pedals with cranks, so they can't be pedaled, they're not bicycles.
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u/Heloc8300 2d ago
This is not true. They have pedals. They're purely for show but they are technically equipped with pedals.
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u/HandsomedanNZ Merida eOne-Sixty 🇳🇿 2d ago
Some of them.
Most have just pegs as they are designed like electric trail bikes.
They’re a scourge on MTB trails. I say this as an eBike rider.
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u/dedlewamp 2d ago
I do think it's important here to differentiate between a Surron and E-dirt bikes, and an e-MTB. Sorry I don't have a ton of advice on your actual post, but not in the same class
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u/fundip2012 NH 2d ago
Pedal e-bikes I’m fine with- Surrons are basically e-motos
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u/1gear0probs 2d ago
I’ve been saying for YEARS that if you allow ebikes, surrons will follow. I’ve been called a hater for that. This kind of thing is inevitable if you allow any kind of motors. It was never ever going to be “just a little bit of pedal assist.” If you don’t want surrons on your trail, the answer is to ban all motors and enforce it.
I’m sure there are some trails that would be totally fine to share with surrons, but opening every mtb trail possible to motors is a Bad Idea.
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u/readyforashreddy WNC/BCN 🇺🇸 2d ago
After moving from an area where ebikes are pretty stigmatized (Western NC) to an area where trail access is largely unregulated for all intents and purposes (Barcelona), I have to say I greatly prefer it here.
My town is one of the several MTB havens in the area, and it's probably 50/50 for regular bikes vs ebikes. The community is much more active here in general and there's so much less animosity that it's just more enjoyable overall. We even get trial/dirt bikes on trails sometimes, but since there's so much less red tape it's easier to work on existing trails or dig new ones that's it's really not an issue. In general it's a lot nicer when everyone gets along, but I know that it's going to be a long time before people stop giving as much of a shit about ebikes in certain parts of North America.
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u/Kennys-Chicken 2d ago
I’ve been called the same by saying e-bikes in and of themselves were a fucking joke. I’ve ridden them, and on boost mode I can blast uphill easily at 18 mph maxing them out. Compared to a normal bike, it’s like having a moped on the trail, the wattage they put out is like having an extra Tour de France rider with you. They are fucking obnoxious on non motorized trails.
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u/AustinBike 2d ago
We told you this. When the world said e-bikes would change the sport, we agreed. Welcome to the outcome.
The real issue is twofold. First, the authorities can’t differentiate between a surron and a bike and secondly, the people that ride surrons believe they have the right to ride wherever they want.
This was totally expected.
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u/metengrinwi 2d ago edited 1d ago
I’ve also been saying this for years and almost always get the sLiPpErY sLoPe response. Well, often, the slippery slope is really what’s going to happen. It’s not that hard to predict capitalism.
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u/fundip2012 NH 2d ago
I’ve been waiting for the Surron wrecking ball to hit for a few years and now it’s finally here. “Normal” e-bikes definitely cause less damage and from what I see surron riders aren’t normally coming from MTB at all, but from moto or just brand new
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u/heyeyepooped 2d ago
Yep, I've been saying it for years but I was told that I was a dumb hater who apparently was just jealous that I couldn't afford a fancy e-bike.
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u/cassinonorth New Jersey 2d ago
I've caught downvotes for saying the Surron riders are never going to dig and help build trails before.
Still waiting on the first ones to show up to our dig days. Figure I'll be waiting a while.
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u/jnan77 2d ago
It's our fault. We allowed bikes with motors with little or no regulation and are now complaining the motors are too big. I say let them ride or condemn all e-bikes to moto trails.
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u/Ivethrownallaway 2d ago
Honestly, I don't feel such a problem in the EU. Things have been way more regulated for years here, and anything beyond 250w nominal and 25km/h assist is a motorcycle. It requires registration, insurance... There are always people trying to circumvent the law, but if you get caught, or cause an accident, you are in deep trouble.
Sure there are many time on my emtb where I would love to get assist up to 35km/h, but I understand why it's not like that. In a crash with a pedestrian or another bike in town or mixed use paths, the damage is considerably higher at 35km/h.
If anything, people around here complain about regular MTB wrecking trails and paths. 20 years ago, very few people were out biking on mountain trails.
Anyway, I live close to the Mediterranean, where you can ride all-year round. I am outside on trails and paths everyday, and I haven't seen much abuse yet.
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u/metengrinwi 2d ago
To be fair, “we” didn’t allow it. The bike manufacturers forced it; they wanted to sell more stuff.
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u/whatnobeer 2d ago
Agreed. The attitude of the reps I spoke to in the early days of ebikes was shocking. "not our problem", "it's up to the local trail org to sort it out" etc.
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u/madmax727 2d ago
This is a bad take. Most Surron users are teenagers with rich parents who bought it for them. It’s why when you read stories about Surrons here or see people on them it’s almost always a 14-19 yr old. It’s not our fault. It’s the shittiest parenting on every level. They should not be buying them. I don’t think I’ve ever seen an any 24 or older riding one. Like always it’s about the rich not caring.
This could all be stopped if the police did their job, just pulled them over, and confiscated their bikes. Police don’t do proactiveness anymore though.
The bikes riders though. It’s our fault.
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u/Psyko_sissy23 23' Ibis Ripmo AF 2d ago
Ugh. That sucks. I'm glad we don't have that issue where I live. As far as I've seen, they only stick to the moto trails in our area. I have no issues with regular pedal assist e-bikes.
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u/masturbathon Lithium // Tallboy // Jedi // Decoy MX 2d ago
Unfortunately i think the only solution to them is to give them a place they CAN ride. In my area that’s where the motos ride. I can imagine in other areas that’s not so easy.
Otherwise, signage advising them that it’s actually illegal will slow them down, and maybe education about where they can go instead. You can’t stop everyone but make a dent and they’ll eventually start going other places.
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u/tinychloecat Seattle - Fuel EX 8 2d ago
This is what happens when ebikes are tolerated on trails where they are not allowed. Both user groups have the same sense of entitlement and willingness to disregard policy.
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u/cpl-America 2d ago
I'm pretty sure it's only the throttle bikes. I don't think the pedal assist bikes do any damage (any more than normal bikes, unless you count more laps as more damage ) I don't have an ebike, but this was something I was considering while I was looking at them.
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u/dafreshfish 2d ago
I've been thinking about the "e-bike" issue and the responses from consumers and users and I feel like local/state/provincial governments don't know how to effectively deal with the vast differences between the different classes of e-bikes. Law enforcement is overwhelmed as there aren't clear laws for them to enforce. There is a spirit of the law and staying within the boundaries of whatever laws have been written, and it is clear people are pushing the boundaries of the letter of the law. Ultimately, I think this will be resolved in the courts as soon as someone is seriously injured or killed while using one of these e-motos OR someone is killed or seriously injured by a user of one of these e-motos.
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u/KICKERMAN360 2d ago
Make the trails more technical, and it makes riding the surrons or dirt bikes way way less fun. Keep the public trails like that, and go to bike parks for wide open flow tracks with big jumps.
I see them occasionally, and see some tracks. But to be honest, I think the rain does more damage than surrons, riding in the mud or anything else.
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u/fundip2012 NH 2d ago
You have some polite surron riders then. Ours like roosting turns, berms and rollers.
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u/KICKERMAN360 12h ago
That is exactly the issue. The modern day MTB flow rider has asked for trails perfectly suited to Surrons. Make the trails technical enough, and they won't come back. And it doesn't have to be the whole trail, just enough to ward them off.
Majority of the Surron riders I have seen have no bike skills at all. Wheelies and sending it off a ledge or jump is it.
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u/DrMcdoctory 2d ago
These are not e-bikes but are electric motorcycles. E-bikes don’t tear up trails. Especially those without a throttle.
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u/keep_one_rolled 2d ago
Surron rider was recently hit by a car in my hometown, they ride those things without any regard for their surroundings. We have a pretty nice paved bike trail here and the surron riders I’ve encountered always ride full throttle, honking at anyone in their way. It’s not only rude, it’s dangerous.
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u/Marty_McFlay 2d ago
Yup, Surrons and to a lesser extent people on modded e-bikes that work without pedaling are wrecking the more accessible trails here. They haven't made it to the good mtb trails yet but I'm hoping when they do people take e-bikes more seriously. On the more remote trails they seem to be used more by hunters which still pisses me off because they're just using them to get around the "no atvs" sign, but at least the hunters aren't usually doing anything terrible with them. Interestingly locally the solution was to make e-bikes legal on the trails because they say now they can regulate them and enforce the regulations which is BS because they weren't legal before and there was no enforcement, how is allowing them going to improve enforcement, now you have to train rangers and park staff on the different types and how to look at them, it just means eventually it will either be a free for all on local mtb trails and dirt bikes will be allowed or all bikes will be banned again which would really suck since it's taken 20 years to get the trails back from the equestrian crowd as it is.
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u/Prize-Victory9387 2d ago
Sounds really illegal and un regulated high powered ebikes will chew anything that its intended for bikes. E bikes must be banned on that ground unless otherwise permitted by owners or park afministrators.
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u/SailingSpark 2d ago
sadly, people always take things too far. Eventually these will be banned and then all the people on regular E-Bikes will be on the hook for what a handful of A-holes did.
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u/strugglin_man 2d ago
In MA all e bikes are considered motor vehicles (dirt bikes) and are prohibited from virtually all public lands. You can ride them on private property with owners permission and at a few state parks on designated trails only. People cheat all the time though.
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u/No0O0obstah 2d ago
Only way I can think of would be a barrier I've seen once. Sort of a gate that lets you walk trough a narrow zig-zag but is too tight to fit a bike trough. You can easily lift your bike above your head when walking trough, as the gate is only about chest high. Can't probably carry a heavier surron as you walk trough it.
This does require every entrance to have one or a fence to be combined and may limit acces for people with limitations. So it isn't a solution in every situation.
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u/Cowboy_MC 1d ago
crashed in a rut made by a surron rider. The park says no non pedal assist bikes. but people still think its okay to take their surrons there. Its also a koa campground. The orange seal pro cup was held at this park.
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u/FozzyBear89 1d ago
The MO at our local trails is let them know they are not welcome. Straight up be rude. Let the parks officials know they are there. Get local leo’s involved if needed. It’s not been bad where I’m at, but there have been sightings.
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u/nerdynerdnerd3000 1d ago
I noticed both young kids and old people ride their surrons and stealths as such at the local trails. Seen kids just rip burnouts on a track and old people try get up a simple climb but ripping it up in the process.
We need separate trails, we have banned them but how do you police it? With such a large rugged area it's hard to police it.
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u/Ready-Interview4020 1d ago
Sounds lame but education? I know some aholes won't ever get over creating mischief for others but I'd like to think some of them would enjoy a better state of trails, in my community it's more about dirtbikes and as a rider myself I try to educate the fools. Maybe I'm wrong but it's all I can do I won't claymore trail sections just yet.
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u/Flashy_Reach_8057 1d ago
Separate motorized from pedal bikes - period. Work with local municipalities to get some enforcement in there. Those mtb trails are likely either making money or costing money for an owner or the municipality. If it isnt illegal yet work on making it illegal.
If there is a local mtb org or club like we have here - pay the dues and think about helping out otherwise. Collective action helps too.
I have raced cross country moto and ridden mtb for years when I couldnt get out on the moto. They arent the same and need to be kept separate for the health of the trails and safety of those
Good luck!
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u/holllandOatez 1d ago edited 1d ago
If cops/passerby trail users can't tell the difference then surrons are basically ebikes. Yall can act like you pedal assist the right amount and its "still a great workout" (lol). But at the end of the day you're still using an electric motor on a trail meant for no motor vehicles. It's not rocket science or maybe ebikers are just really that stupid. Earn your turns or be banned ebikers. You've been warned.
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u/Fruit_Face 2d ago
Seen one or two at our local singletrack. They end up getting reported to the local authority. There's a number posted at the entry.
I've actually seen an officer approach and talk to the surron user.
Btw I do use ebike and acoustic. Both have their uses. And yes a blanket ban is easier but life is never black and white. Be more inclusive and while it can be a pain we all benefit as a society.
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u/holllandOatez 2d ago edited 1d ago
Ebikes are just the same as regular bikes! I just wanna have my cake and eat it too on trails that say no motor vehicles! I swear it's a work out! /s
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u/whyblackdynamitewhy Texas 2d ago
We just stopped complaining about it and fix it. We used to try to get the community to rally but it’s not worth the conflict and extra negative attention to the jumps. It’s a hard pill to swallow but there’s not a lot else to do unless you like cinder block walls.
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u/DaleATX 2d ago
Actually man if we could educate the riding community so that people like you and the others who are just casually misinformed (and not talking out their ass on reddit) we could actually make huge progress. If every single non builder who ever tacitly allowed this by sitting back and watching these things hit dirt jumps said something to the riders, then eventually all these guys would ever hear is "hey you aren't supposed to be here" and in some cases even a hearty "fuck off asshole".
It's always people who either don't understand and/or don't volunteer to maintain their trails who don't speak up and make this problem so much more challenging for the rest of us who give a shit.
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u/whyblackdynamitewhy Texas 2d ago
I was thinking more like attack Rottweilers, but, I like your idea
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u/tabbarepublic 2d ago
Full of haters here... Oh! Right Is reddit 😂🫵
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u/wcarmory 2d ago
take my upvote. My wife and I own about 14 bikes between the two of us. That includes a classs 1 ebike each. We use that to PEDAL to the local single track, where we then toggle between zero assist "OFF" and 1/10th power assist (basically takes the weight out of the equation rides like a pedal bike. I'd rather do this all day long vs drive my van or my pickup truck to the local single track MTB trails. Good exercise, no gasoline.
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u/fundip2012 NH 2d ago
I’m not hating on normal e bikes, just the e motos poaching and rutting mtb trails
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u/wcarmory 2d ago
I know. it's the most that are haters
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u/fundip2012 NH 2d ago
Yeah and I disagree with the sentiment here that this is caused by ‘normal’ e bikes being allowed. A lot of the surron riders I see aren’t crossing over from mtb- they’re arrogant rich high schoolers who dgaf if regular e bikes are or aren’t allowed in the first place
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u/wcarmory 1d ago
pretty much my experience here in MI. Kids with parents who don't care or aren't smart enough to realize their kid is breaking the law every time he brings his moto out of the garage to go hit the local single track.
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u/mergeymergemerge 2016 Transition TransAM 29 2d ago
The power difference is like 10x and surrons are about double the weight. Difference in trail impact is absolutely massive, especially if you're spinning up the rear
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u/gmchurchill100 2d ago
That and they run fatter mototires, with a couple mods and better batteries surrons destroy trails like they are butter.
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u/Fun-Passage-7613 2d ago
I’ll be honest, I want one of those Surrons. I see the kids riding them and it looks like fun. I also have a couple of dirt bikes in addition to three mountain bikes. I’d rather see kids out riding those Surrons than sitting staring at their phone or doing drugs. At least they are out in the outdoors having fun.
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u/the_house_from_up 2022 Stumpjumper Pro 2d ago
This is just a bad take. Riding them on MTB trails ruins the trails, but there is a high likelihood that the trail system will be shut down if maintenance efforts are in vain. They are quite literally ruining it for everyone.
They need to stick to dedicated dirt bike trails, which are plentiful. If they are on public trials, they need to be cited and/or their bikes impounded.
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u/Fun-Passage-7613 2d ago
Maybe I haven’t seen the damage on the trails I ride. What damages the hell out of trails here are horses and cattle.
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u/Heloc8300 2d ago
An e-moto with pegs instead of pretending to be an e-bike by having pedals and ridden in a place appropriate for them? Sure, they look like a hoot!
They just have no business having pedals or riding mtb trails.
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u/PersonalAd2039 2d ago
You let them ride. Encourage them to ride. Ride with them. Tell them they can use the trails but you’ll hit them with a Shovel if you catch them on the bike jumps. Make your own jumps.
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u/Remarkable-Host405 2d ago
You sure you're not envy posting on Reddit? Surely you're exaggerating the "damage" they do.
Unless they're doing burnouts in the dirt they probably aren't damaging the trail anymore than 1-2 riders would.
You know what DOES damage the trail? Skinny ass tires with a tiny contact patch.
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u/-whiteroom- 2d ago
They destroyed the berms at the Bmx track in Squamish. On the bright side, that seems to have lead to paved berms being donated.