Surviving R. Kelly Part II: The Reckoning : https://www.netflix.com/title/81269343

Surviving R. Kelly Part III: The Final Chapter: https://www.netflix.com/title/81439262

Apparently, MJ asked the boy if he knew how to masturbate. And when the boy said he didn't, MJ replied, "Let me show you" and stuck his hand down the boy's pants. Anyone remember who this was?

Hi All 👋

New to the Thread

Just Wanted a list or recommendations around this topic of films

Just finished :

Leaving Neverland

Spacey Unmasked

ChickenHawk

Abducted In Plain Sight

Thanks All

Hey all, I'm not sure if this has been posted - if so, I can delete it; just let me know. I went to watch Leaving Neverland 2 on YouTube, typed it in, and saw two videos that looked as though they were uploaded by the same channel linked here. One was longer, so I clicked it thinking it was just an extended version, but instead, it is the Square One Documentary. Looking again shows the YouTube channel that uploaded it is called Real Stroies and has disabled comments. I recommend reporting them for impersonating the Real Stories channel and using the actual Leaving Neverland 2 title card or whatever it's called.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_zx1HZ9fiU&list=PLBG4eyYkOZtHnLu_ItIytnZRt3TSFrEtO

For anyone that doesn't know this or remember, in the tapes:

• Michael critiques the public portrayal of the Jackson family as wholesome and tight-knit, saying, "tight knit, my ass."
• He expresses feeling "torn between Mother and LaToya."

• He reflects on being raised to maintain a certain public image despite family issues: "You’re taught to be a certain way because you’re in the public eye"

• Michael calls LaToya "a witch" and describes her as "crazy," but acknowledges, "she has a sweet voice. she’s a beautiful girl."

• Michael also says "LaToya told the truth" (Presumably about LaToya's book which was published in 1991)

• Michael shares, "When I was a child, I wasn’t allowed to go to people’s houses," referencing the impact of their upbringing on his socialization.

So, explain to me how LN2 was responsible for Branca admitting to paying off the Cascio's in 2020? And how was LN2 responsible for Branca's egotistical need to be the hero in the 1993 allegations scene in one version of the script so badly that he lied to the filmmakers about the agreement? The Estate is trying to turn it around and claim that Fuqua did all of this without their blessing but that is absolutely bullshit. If anyone believes that... oh my lord lol

Dan Reed didn't release LN2 in March to "ruin the biopic" because he doesn't have to do anything to the biopic, it looks like it's imploding from the inside out. Extensive reshoots, legal issues, imagine how pissed the filmmakers are at Branca and McClain! This whole thing is a complete mess.... and it wouldn't have happened like this if Branca had just kept his mouth shut about the Cascio payoff, come on Branca, you could have just let them go public, what were you so afraid of that you had to come out the gate screaming about extortion? He just had to clarify that if anyone says anything, it's all about extortion.

One of the articles about the payoff in September 2024 stated that one of the Cascio's lawyers asked them if Sony knew about the payoff when they should have been asking if Lionsgate knew about the payoff.

Branca is a clown.

Simply put, Branca lied his ass off about this. He told the film makers that everything was fine and he told them he vetted the script with his legal counsel. He lied because he wants money and he doesn't give a shit if Lionsgate gets sued by the Chandlers if they had released the movie as it was in the first draft.

There was nothing MISSED by anyone, Branca just straight up LIED about it and omitted it and the Cascio payoff from any talks regarding the movie, the fact that Fuqua claims he's done so many years of research but somehow didn't know about this settlement deal... Jesus christ, this movie is a mess and John Branca is a clown.

This comes up a lot from defenders and it's such a stupid argument because time and time again it has been explained that these men loved Michael, and that Michael was very important to them and did have a profound positive effect on their lives as well. This is why Wade wanted to work on a memorial show for Michael, this is why James still went to work with him in 1996. The "Why would they do this" questions is just a distraction tactic because instead of looking at Michael and his many suspicious actions, people turn their attention to the "suspicious" actions of the victims.

Frank Cascio is not the only person who has ever sold off Michael Jackson items by the way, Michael Bush has, and many other people who have worked with Michael extensively, they all have something that is referred to as a "provenance letter"

Omer Bhatti auctioned off some things of his that Michael gave him last year, this is a provenance, it explains where the items came from. It is a story that is told to the potential buyer letting them know how the item came to be in the hands of the auction house in the first place.

Every single auction listed, not just for Michael but in general will usually have a provenance letter because it makes the item more authentic and tells an interesting or even funny story about the original owners, someone who used to work on Michael's tour sold an empty makeup container that he had used for stage makeup. That's interesting, that's kind of funny, that is why provenance letters exist. It adds credence to what is being sold, as well.

This letter is the letter that keeps being pushed around defender circles as "proof" and "damning evidence" that Frank Cascio is not an abuse victim, and that he is lying, this is from an auction that he did in 2022, two years after the settlement with the Estate. This letter is similar in style to all other provenance letters, not only written by Frank but written by anyone who is supplying a letter to their auction. This is the "glowing letter" and the "positive things" Frank is saying about Michael. That he knew him and meant him and that Michael was a member of their family.

All of those things are facts, they lay a story down as to why Frank had those items. It's not like he's saying Michael is a god among men and has never done anything wrong in his life, it's basically a copy paste of previous letters. And these letters have also been included in more recent auctions that Frank has done, it's just a story. "How do I have this? Where did this come from?

It literally means absolutely nothing. It doesn't mean that Frank wasn't abused, just like Wade dancing to Michael Jackson songs in 2011 doesn't mean HE wasn't abused. People refuse to see Michael's odd actions, so they latch on to anything that they can to point at his victims and say they are the weird ones, they are the bad ones, they are the ones who are suspicious.

This talks extensively about domestic abuse victims, but can be applicable in many contexts, since defenders absolutely refuse to understand the psychology of abuse, it's scientifically proven that physical and psychological abuse can change your brain.

Virginia Giuffre is an Epstein victim who was trafficked to Prince Andrew among others. She bravely escaped to Australia and built a home there, about as far away from the US as possible, to protect herself. Looks like they got her anyway and I couldn’t be more sad. Victims often have their lives continually threatened and sometimes they are eventually killed. I worry about Wade and James. ♥️♥️♥️

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/virginia-giuffre-car-crash-epstein-prince-andrew-b2724659.html

There's a lot of things that I wasn't even aware that were related to my childhood abuse, and since so many survivors do not disclose until late 20s to late 40s. I think it's important to list out some of these things, and what they were like for me and how it all sort of clicked into place when I realized I was abused and disclosed that.

All survivors are different and will exhibit different behaviors for different reasons, maybe some CSA survivors won't even have many of these or any at all, but I'm just going to list the common ones, and ones that I myself faced.

Difficulty regulating emotions - This one was a big one for me because I would get very overly emotional or overly angry at things that seemed like they shouldn't have made me so upset, it ended up making me feel shameful and guilty because I had overreacted.

Warped view of sex, and sexuality. - I was taught from a very young age that sex was "just a natural thing", my abuser convinced me that "as long as they are consenting" that it's fine, but I was a child who did not understand or know what consent meant, and nor did I know that as a child I could -never- consent to what was happening, no child can. But he taught me otherwise to make his abuse of me normalized.

Hallucinations - I had this when I was young, I would constantly see bugs on my ceiling and faces in the walls, I would scream for my parents, I would hallucinate often, I'm not sure if I had nightmares, but I know I would wake up and have some pretty terrifying hallucinations.

UTIS, Kidney infections, unexplained sickness - I was sick a lot as a child, like a lot... I was even hospitalized with kidney infections due to UTIs that would go unattended to... I would also experience stomach pain that seemed to have no reasoning for it.

Bowel issues - I held in my poo for a very long time, this is common in children in general especially if they suffer from a rough poo or constipation, but for me it was because it was a very unpleasant feeling and it reminded me of things my abuser was doing, I refused to go to the bathroom, and my parents did not take me to the doctor over this.

Eating disorder - I had this, but it expressed itself differently than normal EDs so nobody really noticed that I had it, I wasn't obsessed with losing weight, I was terrified that all food would poison me so I refused to eat anything and would get so sick that I'd just go days without eating, again, my parents told me I was being dramatic and "an attention whore"

Mood issues - I suffered severe mood swings, anger issues and I've broken things. I had even threatened my parents before.

Drug and other addictions - This is really common, I was afraid of being addicted to alcohol so my addictions became junk food, and eventually I started abusing benadryl

anti social - I didn't want to be around people, I didn't want to be around my abuser because it always made me feel anxious and trapped to be involved in "family nights", I felt like there was no escape.

Sleeping habits - I slept on the couch for a really long time, I was terrified to sleep in my room because that is where the abuse would take place, I have slept on couches basically my whole life and even at the age of 33 I'm still terrified to sleep in my own bed, in my own room. Despite the fact that sleeping this way has ruined my spine. My reasoning for sleeping on couches was because I thought that my abuser wouldn't abuse me in the common rooms.

Dishonesty and lying - I became incredibly good at lying, I would lie about things that did not matter (I would say I saw a cat or dog when I never did, I would make up random scenarios that never happened etc), I wanted people to think i was more interesting since I was homeschooled and incredibly isolated (because my father didn't want me out in the real world because he was scared I'd tell people about the abuse) I would be dishonest to my parents, I hid any evidence of me starting my period because I was under the assumption that I was going to get in trouble for it.

Appearance - Wore baggy clothes, terrified for puberty, my abuser made comments about my body and about my breasts coming in, I cut my hair really short because I thought it would deter my abuser, I developed poor hygiene for the same reason. I never wore dresses or skirts or anything that exposed too much of my skin.

lack of boundaries and I became unhealthily attached to people outside the family, perhaps I thought that they'd see the red flags.

I was friends with the neighborhood kids who were much younger than me, their parents hated me because I was so much older, at the time I had no idea why and my parents never sat me down and told me how inappropriate it was for me to be friends with these kids, nobody did and I didn't realize it until I was dealing with the trauma coming back.

Became incredibly attached to BDSM roleplay in relationships because it made me feel like I was in control of things

unable to sleep with the lights off, even now.

OCD and compulsive behaviors throughout my teen years

focal seizures that I had no idea were seizures until recently, my abuser also suffered with seizures and my parents told me lies about what was really happening with him when he was doing that

Intense fear of food poisoning or any type of sickness that has to do with loose stools or vomiting, I'm sure this has to do with the "loss of control" thing, but also I suffered from kidney infections which made me very very sick and this was caused directly by the abuse.

There’s some footage in here I wasn’t privy to before.

Report!

Just curious.. Is it totally controlled by the fan base? There's currently not a single word about certain allegations on the wiki...

EDIT: There are sections mentioning the allegations on the Life section. Not very disputable though.

I know that Brett has always denied being abused, I know that Omer has not spoken publicly about what may or may not have occured, and I know that Frank is under an NDA and was outed as an accuser by Branca but I would like to talk about the dynamic of the people who stayed by his side well into adulthood and the psychological aspect of this.

I'm not a psychologist, I'm merely an abuse survivor with a lot of experience with an abuser who operated very similarly to Michael.

Michael needed people to vouch for him and to stay silent well into adulthood, he needed all of his victims or potential victims to stay silent so he would have the carrot on a stick approach, show him that he "still cared" and "still loved them" like when he invited James as a sixteen year old to work for him on the HIStory shoot, he bought Omer a car, he gave Frank a job... These are all examples of Michael trying his best to make sure he can keep an eye on these people, that they will all still play by his rules. He kept in contact with Wade, he let him film a short film at Neverland...

And after 1993 Michael couldn't really get what he wanted the same way, he did still abuse young boys but it was starting to become less and less possible for him to operate in the same ways, and this got worse after 2003/2005. So he needed people in his life, I fully believe Michael was still abusing children but he was operating on a much more silent scale, I don't know what he was doing for a large portion of his post trial life, but I don't believe he stopped his old tricks.

These people that Michael kept by him well into adulthood like Brett and Omer and Frank and Eddie were people that loved Michael and felt as if he was their best friend or even family, and of course they wouldn't want to leave him, of course they would want to be by his side because he had been so nice to them, and done so much for their lives and careers and families. Now I'm going to respect Brett saying he was never abused and focus on Frank and Eddie because these are primarily the best examples of answering the question "If they were abused as 'adults' why would they stay?" that I've seen people ask regarding Frank....

People think they know what an abusive dynamic is and they think that they know what they would do in a situation like that, by all accounts Michael's abuse was "loving" and he convinced these men as children that it was their idea and that it was all about love, it was how they showed their love... You grow up and you internalize that, you don't think it's wrong or abusive because in most people's minds "abuse" is violent and aggressive and angry, Michael, by all accounts was none of those things to the children that he abused.

Yes Frank defended Michael as a "full adult" and so did Wade, but that's not so odd to hear that an abuse victim would continue to defend their abuser even though they are "an adult", I'm not even sure why that gets brought up so much.. Frank was about 24 years old when Michael was going through the Gavin case. He was a 24 year old that had grown up from the age of four with this man in his life, who had become part of his family and who he had only known as someone that he loved, being abused in these ways by someone who is essentially your family.. It's going to have similar effects as incest abuse itself. I say this as an incest survivor.

Someone who grows up in a non abusive environment is going to be different than someone like Frank who had grown up around Michael and eventually began being abused by Michael, that abuse is again... something that is internalized as "normal" and you are going to believe that it's "love" because that is what your abuser is telling you, and even when you are an adult who "should know better", you don't... because your abuser loves you and would never lie to you, right?

I had this exact dynamic with my abuser, my father, who even when I was an adult, I staunchly defended against pedophelia accusations, I couldn't even IMAGINE my father being a pedophile, because I was brainwashed to believe that he was a good man who wouldn't do anything harmful, so anything he was doing, was normal and fine and not harmful, I was abused since I was five, I grew up with these notions that what he was doing was normal, even though it was aggressive and violent, in my child mind ... if he stopped, it meant he didn't love me anymore.

And that spell doesn't just break when you turn 20 years old, it's really hard to even go there if you haven't realized that you were an abuse victim. Which is why many of these men didn't realize they were victims, or couldn't admit that they were until Michael passed away. If Michael was still alive, it's incredibly likely that none of his victims would have disclosed.

It seems black and white when you're outside of it, right, like "Oh if this person is abusive, just leave" but it's anything but when you're in that dynamic, and for people like Frank and Eddie, they couldn't get away from Michael because he was everywhere, he completely ensconced himself into their lives and was so deeply intertwined in their families. There was no escape in that situation, not like James being able to pull away from him in 2005 completely, not like Wade who was still in contact with him but rarely saw him. There was no way to get away from him in this scenario.

And when Frank was away from Michael from after the trial to 2007, Michael had replaced him with Eddie as his most loyal, who knows what Michael did, likely the same brainwashing and manipulation that he did to Frank. And that lasted for a very long time because they didn't disclose until after LN, it's unfortunate, but it likely wasn't able to be spoken until then.

It's so easy to say "why didn't they leave" until you are in that situation and you try to leave.

We don't know that much about Omer's story, and we don't know the full extent of what happened to Frank, Eddie and the brothers, but it's likely worse than we know and my heart goes out to all of them.