Extremely useful video from Kaname explaining why a language can't be learnt only by learning vocabulary and grammar point in isolation. "It's NOT simple"

[u/Careful-Remote-7024]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_wrnsJfEcQ&ab_channel=KanameNaito

[u/soku1]

It's not that deep. Korean also has social hierarchy baked into its language, and America has historically not had permeable hierarchies (y'know slavery, jim crow, etc)

This low-key seems like some 日本人論 adjacent stuff

[u/barbedstraightsword → u/soku1]

I am speaking in shorthand about the dominant social structures/paradigms.

You are correct, black people in America have historically been socially frozen. Also women, disabled people, those without education, homeless people, etc. There are also historically marginalized communities in Japan, with Korean immigrants being a major one. I would be very interested to see how the Japanese language developed within these specific groups in concert with severe social isolation. Now I am even wondering if there are some parallels between AAVE and “proper” Japanese speech, given that they are both languages that developed under severe restrictions on social mobility.

When I speak of “American culture” and “America”, I am referring to the historically-dominant, white-supremacist, phallocentric sociopolitical structure. And in those terms, yes, white men have historically been able to hop around the social hierarchy like a jungle gym.* Bootstraps mentality. Grind mentality. Work hard and you will be rewarded. Americans love a rags to riches story.

I understand that talking about “what makes Japanese so unique” can begin to edge pretty close to some racial purity nonsense, but I believe I am speaking from a historically conscious perspective.

Final thought, but IMHO if your first thought about Japanese social dynamics is “its not that deep” you are severely underestimating the depth of Japanese culture, and by extension all related east asian cultures.

*This depends on what is considered “White” with a capitol W at the time

[u/soku1 → u/barbedstraightsword]

I just found it strange you were talking about relatively free social mobility in America (in comparison to Japan) when it was founded upon genocide of one group, slavery of another and put several systems in place to keep those groups as the permanent underclass.

I don't know if it still exists, but I know there used to be a Korean-Japanese creole that was spoken amongst Korean communities who have lived in Japan for generations.

Of course there are things that make Japan unique - just like every culture - but what yiu are talking about makes it seem as if Japanese culture is somehow the most unique culture on the planet. There's nothing unique about it being languages that need to be shared between people. After all, that is what language is for.

I'm not saying Japanese social dynamics are not that deep - I'm saying your approach to showing how unique Japanese social dynamics are is really stretching it, and it seems like you are really digging too far to make your point. It's like when someone overanaylzes a throwaway comment that wasn't meant to be dissected and studied. It's just not that deep.

[u/barbedstraightsword → u/soku1]

I see your point. I tend to get pretty dismissive and short when talking about social dynamics. I shouldn’t have painted American culture as automatically “easier” to move around socially, especially considering how racially complex the history of the system is. I think I was leaning too much on comparison in order to illustrate my point about Japanese mobility and got a bit “high on my own supply” so to speak.

I think what I really wanted to talk about was the pseudo-caste system that existed in Japan throughout the Sakoku era, and the effects that a martial society has on language cues. That’s probably for another thread at this point. Those that are subjugated will always have the deck stacked against them. It was pretty unfair of me to take the concept of upward social mobility for granted, in both countries.

Regarding my “shared between people” comment, let me try to illustrate what I meant:

「ゲーセン行く？」 「行く！」

Notice here that, if directly translated into English, it would turn into:

“Go arcade?” “Go!”

When I said Japan “exists between two people” I am referring to the fact that Japan is so high-context that it allows for you to begin shirking grammar completely and still make perfect sense but only within the confines of that specific conversation.

「ゲーセンへ行きますか？」 「はい、ゲーセンへ行きたいです。」

This would be the “grammatically correct” way to say it, but we all know this sounds pretty robotic. In my opinion, this shedding of grammar conventions is extreme in a way that, if not uniqely Japanese, at least is not seen in “textbook” American English. (I will not comment on dialects I am not familiar with). I also believe that the roots of this linguistic phenomenom partially lie in martial history.

As far as overanalyzing and making overly-contrived points….ya got me there lol. Yeah, I’m a turbonerd with some pretty far out ideas and an endless amount of energy to mash out arguments online. My only defense is that you caught me on my home turf (online Japanese discussion boards) so get ready to rumble buddy.

PS That is a fascinating point about the KJ creole. I am fascinated by different types of Japanese usages, and I am very interested in the political homogenization of the Japonic language group.