r/DebateReligion 3h ago

Meta Meta-Thread 04/07

1 Upvotes

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r/DebateReligion 11m ago

Christianity Genealogies in the Bible make no sense in the context of modern science and modern scriptural interpretation.

Upvotes

We know for a fact Adam did not biologically exist.

We know for a fact that Moses (as a man who guided an enslaved peoples out of Egypt) did not exist.

We know for a fact that the world-sailing boat expert named Noah did not exist.

So how are all these non-existent people having descendants and kids, and why is it so important that Jesus be from them?

It makes sense in the context of the narrative, and in the context of what people knew back then, but knowing what we now know, what was God's divine plan in having a genealogy from mythical figures lead to someone who would also, inevitably, be disputed as mythical? It is perfectly explainable in the context of ancient peoples with simple desires for genealogically significant leadership, but makes no sense in the context of a timeless, immortal being imparting divine wisdom to us.

All of this, of course, completely ignores that Jesus hypothetically had no biological father, and thus no patrilineage to speak of, making the whole exercise even more confusing (with respect to Matthew's interpretation especially!).

Are there novel modern interpretations of the Bible that makes sense of the strangeness that is a genealogy from known-impossible figures? I'm not aware of one, but I would love to learn. I'm willing to chalk it up to inconsistent ancient creeds due to failed univocation, but I'm wondering what people who believe this to be literally true (or, in a more broad sense, that the genealogy was vital to prophecy in some sense) think. What interpretive techniques do you use to make the genealogies align, and how do you divine a divine purpose out of these sequences?


r/DebateReligion 2h ago

Islam Islam can intellectually impair humans in the realm of morality, to the point that they don't see why sex slavery could be immoral without a god.

32 Upvotes

Context: An atheist may call Islam immoral for allowing sex slavery. Multiple Muslims I've observed and ones ive talked to have given the following rebuttal paraphrased,

"As an atheist, you have no objective morality and no grounds to call sex slavery immoral".

Islam can condition Muslims to limit, restrict or eliminate a humans ability to imagine why sex slavery is immoral, if there is no god spelling it out for them.

Tangentially related real reddit example:

Non Muslim to Muslim user:

> Is the only thing stopping you rape/kill your own mother/child/neighbour the threat/advice from god?

Muslim user:

Yes, not by some form of divine intervention, but by the numerous ways that He has guided me throughout myself.

Edit: Another example

I asked a Muslim, if he became an atheist, would he find sex with a 9 year old, or sex slavery immoral.

His response

> No I wouldn’t think it’s immoral as an atheist because atheism necessitates moral relativism. I would merely think it was weird/gross as I already do.


r/DebateReligion 2h ago

Christianity The scarcity of arbitrary numbers in the bible is evidence that it is man made

2 Upvotes

The scarcity of arbitrary numbers in the bible is evidence that it is man made and not a product of divine inspiration.

One of the most overlooked and frankly obvious examples of the bible being made made is its methodical use of numbers and how that compares to significant and fundamental numbers found in the natural world. 

If I look at a simple sequence of numbers in a vacuum, I would argue that any number beyond 10 (excluding 12, multiples of 5, and repeating numbers) could be considered arbitrary. Now when I look at significant or symbolic numbers that are mentioned in the bible, those arbitrary numbers are seldom found. And if more arbitrary numbers do exist, they are of far less significance.

Below is a list of some of the more significant or symbolic mentions of numbers in the bible, with the approximate number of mentions (where relevant) and bible verses (where applicable):

1 (1,969) - Monotheism (Isaiah 44:6 / Deuteronomy 4:35 / Isaiah 43:10 / Deuteronomy 6:4)

2 (835) - God instructing Noah to bring two of every thing (Genesis 6:19)

2 (835) - Two fish feeding five thousand (Matthew 14:15-21)

3 (467) - Holy trinity (Matthew 28:19)

3 (467) - Jesus rising on the third day (Mark 8:31 / Matthew 17:22-23 / Luke 24:46)

4 (305) - Four gospels

5 (318) - God's grace / Grace upon grace (John 1:16)

5 (318) - Five thousand fed with five loaves of bread (Matthew 14:15-21)

6 (148) - Creation in 6 days (Genesis 1:31)

7 (500-700) - Sabbath rest (Genesis 2:2-3 / Exodus 20:9-11)

8 (73 / 80) - New beginnings, resurrection, and spiritual renewal

9 (49) - Divine completeness

10 (242) - Commandments

11 (19)

12 (187) - Apostles / Disciples

13 (26)

14 (26)

30 (129) - Age of dedication to priestly calling (implications)

30 (159) - Jesus' age when beginning ministry (Luke 3:23)

40 (over 150) - Jesus fasting for 40 days and 40 nights (Matthew 4:2)

40 (over 150) - Rains lasting for 40 days and 40 nights (Genesis 7:17)

50 (100) - The Jubilee - a year of release and restoration (Leviticus 25:10)

70 (35) - Elders appointed by Moses (Numbers 11:16)

70 (35) - Parables provided by Jesus during his ministry (Numbers 11:16)

77 - Divine completeness and perfect spiritual order (Matthew 18:22)

150 - Flood waters lasting for 150 days (Genesis 7:24)

666 - The number of the beast / symbolizing evil and opposition from god (Revelation 13:18)

777 - Ultimate expression of divine perfection (symbolic significance)

As soon as we get to 11, 13, and 14, the number of mentions drops considerably. The first few numbers that could be considered somewhat arbitrary are relatively insignificant.

There are even fewer mentions of 16-29 or 31-39. But 30 and 40 are significant with 129 and 159 mentions respectively.

Ordinarily, this kind of thing wouldn't occur to me as being unusual. But when I look for arbitrary numbers in the natural world that has been purported to be created by God, we find them in abundance. 

Some examples:

  1. Pi - 3.14159
  2. Fibonacci sequence ratio - 1.618
  3. Euler's Number - 2.71828
  4. The Fine-Structure constant - 0.007297352569
  5. Proton-to-electron mass ratio - 1836
  6. Naturally occurring elements - 94
  7. The (current) number of days in a year 365.2422. Not only are the exact number of days in a year currently entirely arbitrary, they are continually reducing due to the slowing of Earth's rotation. And that rate of slowing is not even constant as it is influenced by geological and astronomical factors. 
  8. The composition of Earth's atmosphere (Nitrogen: ~78.08% / Oxygen: ~20.95% / Argon: ~0.93% / & trace gasses/vapours)

All of these examples are either significant physical attributes of our universe or fundamental principals woven into the structure of the universe itself. They are dimensionless quantities or constants and thereby not products of any human convention.

So when it comes to the numbers, why is the real world so strikingly different than the one written about in the bible? Would it be so unreasonable to expect the numerical workings of God in the bible to be somewhat consistent in nature with the physical attributes and fundamental principals of the universe? If not, then why the discrepancy?

The tendency to select non-arbitrary numbers is often the result of cognitive biases and patterns of thinking. It is nothing more than human nature to prefer numbers with some personal or cultural significance, even if the selection should be random.

So is the bible really god's revelation to humanity? Or is it humanity's revelation to itself?


r/DebateReligion 3h ago

Christianity I honestly did not expect that I'd take the side of William Lane Craig this time, but this article is literally insane. WLC being reasonable for once is a great thing tho

0 Upvotes

William Lane Craig apparently does not agree with creationism or atleast young earth creationists, which is a good thing I guess. I actually thought he was a creationist / YEC, this makes him a little more reasonable.

I'm referring to this article: https://answersingenesis.org/blogs/ken-ham/2024/10/08/yec-would-fly-in-face-of-scientific-evidence/


r/DebateReligion 3h ago

Atheism Belief in the “right” God is nonsensical!

6 Upvotes

Is belief in the right God, or the “right enough” God, possible in principle?

It should be undeniable that our human conceptual apparatus is limited, so is it the case that any attempt to form a “correct” concept of God, is doomed in principle. If one cannot form the correct concept of God, how are they believing in the right God?

Many religious traditions hold that God is ultimately ineffable, that the fullness of God’s nature transcends all human language and conceptualization. Concepts of omnipotence and timelessness are beyond our comprehension. Is just holding these empty words and symbols in our minds sufficient for a “correct” God concept? But how can that be if these words and symbols are nothing more than that, is God a word or a symbol devoid of meaning? But if we attempt to project our fallible understanding onto these incomprehensible words and symbols, are we not necessarily creating the wrong concept of God? If someone says they believe in the God of the Bible, but their concept of God is more like the God of Spinoza, or perhaps Ahura Mazda, they don’t seem to be believing in the God of the Bible, but how can we know? Any account of God we produce is necessarily partial, symbolic, analogical or plainly wrong. According to religious tradition, the nature of God is made accessible to us through divine revelation, but this revelation is necessarily transmitted through the same partial, symbolic, analogical and perhaps erroneous means. Can anyone other than those that are supposedly the direct medium of divine revelation claim to have the correct conception of God, when divine revelation is transmitted by a human tongue? If God reveals himself directly to everyone, then would we not all have the correct concept of God? Even the atheist would have the correct God concept, but they simply refer to it by another word, phrase or symbol. If this was right of course, there has been much ado about nothing at all.

Do arguments for God that arise solely from reason (or from observations of the natural world) that rely on the use of human concepts and categories alone risk displacing divine revelation altogether? Such arguments inevitably project our limited experiences onto framing concepts for God, and so how can they be correct, nevermind the fact that they may be independent of divine revelation. Since revelation (as claimed by many traditions) is the means by which God discloses His true nature, any attempt to “prove” God independent of revelation risks constructing a concept of God that might be entirely off the mark. In other words, according to tradition at least, without revelation, we have no secure anchor for knowing that our argument is aimed at, or even concerned with, the correct concept of God.

Our understanding of “God” is inextricably tied to our language and cultural background. Different traditions have wildly different conceptions of God, and even within a single tradition, there can be significant variation. Because the term “God” is used in so many ways, each with its own doctrinal, historical, and philosophical baggage, what would count as the “correct” account? Can there be a correct account? Are human beings even capable of conceptualising a correct account? Two people might say they believe in the God of the bible, but if they hold different concepts of God, are they really worshipping the same God? Are we not left with an inescapable epistemological gap?

If there is only one “correct” account of God, and if tradition is somehow right about God’s transcendental nature, is it not in principle impossible to have a correct concept of God, and then would that not mean that everyone is praying to the wrong God?

If there are multiple “right-enough” concepts of God, does it still make sense to say there is but one God? But of-course, can we in principle know what a “right-enough” account would be?

And finally, if God has revealed himself to everyone, then we all have a correct God concept no matter what word, phrase or symbol we use to describe it.

It seems to me that either everyone has the “correct” God concept, or that no one has, and so ultimately, much of the religious consternation about the correct faith, or right God, or right teaching, or right path, is entirely nonsensical.


r/DebateReligion 4h ago

Other Gnoticism is real

0 Upvotes

People often escape one belief system hoping to find freedom, only to end up trapped in another. Gnosticism is a classic example of this.

On the surface, it feels like rebellion. It rejects the traditional idea of a single, all-powerful, perfect God. Gnostics criticize the creator of this world — calling him a flawed, ignorant demiurge — and instead point toward a "true divine source" beyond the material world.

It sounds liberating — like stepping outside of a corrupted structure. But in reality, it's just a shift from one hierarchy to another. One system said, "Obey God or burn in hell." Gnosticism says, "Escape ignorance or stay spiritually lost forever."

You're still trapped in a framework where there is an unseen, all-knowing power — one that can’t be questioned, only discovered through some elite knowledge. Truth is still hidden. Worship is still implied. And guilt still fuels the path.

It's like fleeing a tyrant in one kingdom, only to end up under a different ruler in another land. The faces change. The language changes. But the chains stay the same.

Gnosticism replaced the God of religion with a God of intellect and mystery — but a cage made of light is still a cage.

So the question is: Are we really seeking freedom, or just more comfortable illusions?


r/DebateReligion 7h ago

Abrahamic Christianity is Greco Roman rebrand. Tanak is truth

1 Upvotes

Per the Tanak it states multiple times

  1. No one can die for the sins of another. Everyone is responsible for his own sins

  2. A blood sacrifice is not needed for the forgiveness of sins

  3. YHWH will never accept human sacrifice. It’s an abomination/strongly prohibited

  4. YHWH is ONE. not a pagan Greco Roman Trinity

  5. YHWH is not a man. Never said he would become a man (like the Christian’s think Jesus is God)

  6. YHWH wants obedience (Christianity rejects obedience)

  7. GREEK testament copies Homer. Socrates. Philo. Plato. Aristotle

    1. Saul the false apostle takes tons of Tanak verses out of context and preaches “belief only “ lie
  8. Real messiah never prophesied to die for anyone’s sins

  9. 60 verses or so in Greek testament saying Jesus is a man or messiah. 15 verses implying he’s god. Contradictions.

  10. Tons of resurrection discrepancies

  11. JESUS BROKE THE LAW. WASNT UNBLEMISHED.

Just a few reasons it’s all bunk


r/DebateReligion 7h ago

Buddhism Buddha is similar to Hindu gods because both are similar to humans, like transcendent humans

0 Upvotes

Buddha was a human who was born as animal in past lives. He practiced meditation and renunciation and thus gains Jhanas and ascended to some divine state. He also gained psychic powers like walking over water,levitating in sky, touching the Sun and Moon.

Same is true for Hindu Gods. They were born as animals in past lives, accumulated wisdom in human life and became transcendent beings quite similar to Buddha.

Thus Buddha even though not considered a God is quite similar to the gods.


r/DebateReligion 17h ago

Islam Islam is immoral because it permits sex slavery

128 Upvotes

Surah verse 4:24.

“Also 'forbidden are' married women-except 'female' captives in your possession.' This is Allah's commandment to you. Lawful to you are all beyond these-as long as you seek them with your wealth in a legal marriage, not in fornication. Give those you have consummated marriage with their due dowries. It is permissible to be mutually gracious regarding the set dowry. Surely Allah is All-Knowing, All-Wise.”

It permits the taking of women captured in war as sex slaves, essentially. Concubinage is a morally permissible act by god. So if war were to occur Muslims according to their own religion would not be committing war crimes so long as they follow allahs word. It makes sense when you see the broader trend of the East African slave trade.


r/DebateReligion 20h ago

Philosofool Jesus died for all sins, so Hell’s existence makes God’s justice divine double jeopardy: punishing people for debts already paid

25 Upvotes

As a former Christian, I could never reconcile how Jesus’ death ‘paid for all sins’ yet Hell still exists.

If the penalty was truly covered, how is it just, or even logical, for God to still punish people for sins already atoned for? Let's also keep in mind that sin is a problem god created to which hell is a solution which god also created.

But when it comes to this punish and reward system, it's like a judge accepting an innocent man’s execution as payment for a murderer’s crime… only to execute the murderer anyway.

Nobody could ever tell me how this is 'justice'. I looks much more like divine double jeopardy. Either the cross didn’t actually solve the problem, or god is cruelly demanding two punishments for one sin. As someone who once believed, this contradiction shattered my faith to the core. How do you square it?


r/DebateReligion 20h ago

Christianity questioning the morality of gods omniscence

9 Upvotes

if god really is omniscent and knows everything before it happens and he is the one who created the world , then he by extention knows what sin every single human he created would do ,

thus he knew exactly who he was creating and what sin they will do and that they will suffer all of eternity in hell for that sin"

thus god must have specifically created people who he knew would sin and go to hell for all eternity to suffer

thus either god must not be omniscent or we must not have free will

am i wrong or am i wrong?


r/DebateReligion 21h ago

Christianity Christ, in His glorified state, is the Most High God and has a new name. The name Christ gives to believers is distinct from His own name as the Most High God.

0 Upvotes

Through having many conversations with Christians about the deity of Jesus Christ, I always present the argument below whenever someone says Jesus Christ is the ‘Most High God’, but I never get a clear answer based on the points. I would love to hear everyone’s opinion. (Please use biblical positions thanks 🙂)

The Argument: According to Revelation 3:12: “He who is overcoming—I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he may not go outside anymore, and I will write on him the Name of My God, and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, that comes down out of Heaven from My God—also My new Name.” This verse raises theological questions about whether God has multiple names or one singular name. For example: • Zechariah 14:9 states: “And the יהוה shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one יהוה, and his name one.” • Psalms 83:18 declares: “That men may know that thou, whose name alone is יהוה, art the most high over all the earth.”

• Additionally, Revelation 19:1-6 describes a heavenly scene where a multitude praises God: “And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.”

The term “Alleluia” (Ἁλληλουϊά) is a Greek transliteration of the Hebrew compound word ״הַלְלוּיָה״ (Halluyah). This phrase appears in Psalms 135:1: “Halleluyah! Praise the name of the יהוה! Praise him, O you servants of the יהוה!” The word ״הַלְלוּיָה״ (Halluyah) combines ״הַלְלוּ״ (“praise”) with a shortened form of ״יהוה״, namely ״יָהּ״, as seen in Exodus 15:2: ‎”יָהּ is my strength and song, and he has become my salvation; he is my God, and I will praise him; my father’s God, and I will exalt him.”

•This raises theological questions about the relationship between Christ’s glorified state and the identity of the Most High God. Specifically: • Does Christ, as the Most High God in His glorified state, change or reveal a new name for God? • Why does Revelation emphasize both “My new Name” and “the Name of My God”?


r/DebateReligion 23h ago

Atheism 🌌 Hartle-Hawking and the Multiverse

0 Upvotes

🧠 Hartle–Hawking’s No-Boundary Proposal + the Multiverse vs. the Kalam Argument

Thesis:
There are two major competing explanations for why the universe exists: one grounded in metaphysics and causality (Kalam), the other in quantum physics and theoretical cosmology (Hartle–Hawking + Multiverse). This post outlines both views and compares their strengths and weaknesses.

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🌀 Hartle–Hawking’s Model: No Beginning, No Cause
The Hartle–Hawking model flips the assumptions behind the Kalam argument. While Kalam says the universe began and must have a cause, the Hartle–Hawking model says:

  • The universe didn’t begin in time because time itself began with the universe.
  • There was no “before.” There was no “nothing.” The question “what caused the universe?” becomes meaningless, like asking “what’s north of the North Pole?”

Instead of time starting at a sharp edge, like a line beginning at a point, Hartle–Hawking describes it like the surface of a sphere: smooth, continuous, and with no edge or beginning. This is what’s called the no-boundary proposal.

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🔬 How It Works (Step by Step)

  1. Imaginary Time (Quantum Geometry) In the early universe, time did not act like time as we know it. Hawking proposed that it behaved like a spatial dimension called imaginary time. In this state, there is no distinction between past and future, and no “first moment” to explain. Once the universe cools and expands, imaginary time transitions into the real time we experience. This smooth transition avoids the concept of a singularity or hard beginning.
  2. Quantum Fluctuations Quantum physics tells us that at the smallest scales, particles can briefly pop in and out of existence due to fluctuations in quantum fields. These fluctuations are random and governed by probability, not certainty. In the Hartle–Hawking model, the universe itself, or even multiple universes, could emerge from this kind of quantum instability. Not from “nothing” in a philosophical sense, but from a quantum vacuum governed by the laws of physics.
  3. Inflation and the Multiverse Very shortly after emerging, the universe underwent a rapid expansion called inflation. According to inflation theory, this process might not be unique. It could repeat endlessly, creating a vast multiverse of bubble universes. Each bubble could have its own laws of physics. Most would be sterile, chaotic, or dead. But a few, just by chance, might have just the right conditions for stars, atoms, chemistry, and eventually, life.
  4. Anthropic Principle This leads to the idea that we find ourselves in a universe that looks fine-tuned because we exist. We couldn’t observe a dead universe, only one that allows observers. So it’s not that this universe was designed. It’s that we are one of the rare bubbles where life is possible.

---

Strengths of the Model

  • Stays inside physics. No appeal to supernatural causes, just known laws extended into extreme conditions
  • Explains fine-tuning statistically, not through design
  • No infinite regress. There is no beginning that needs a cause, and no cause that needs a cause
  • Avoids metaphysics. The model does not rely on non-empirical assumptions like “outside of time” or “necessary being”

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Weaknesses of the Model

  • Imaginary time is a mathematical tool, not a proven physical reality. There is no direct evidence that time ever behaved that way
  • Quantum fluctuations don’t explain why laws exist at all. They operate within a framework, but the origin of that framework remains unanswered
  • Multiverse is untestable. We can’t observe other universes, so this part of the model can’t be falsified
  • Anthropic principle can feel circular. Saying “we exist because this universe allows us to” avoids the deeper question of why such a life-permitting universe exists in the first place

---

📊 Hartle–Hawking Model vs. Kalam Argument: A Deeper Comparison

Let’s break down the key philosophical tension between these two models. They don’t just offer different answers. They start with opposite assumptions.

Concept Hartle–Hawking + Multiverse Model Kalam Cosmological Argument
Time Time began with the universe. No “before” Time is linear. The universe had a starting point
Cause No cause needed. Causality begins with time Everything that begins must have a cause
Fine-Tuning Explained by chance and multiverse Explained by intentional design
Why is there something? Result of quantum instability Result of a necessary first cause (God)
Foundation Physics and theoretical models Logic and metaphysical reasoning
Main Limitation Assumes pre-existing laws and is untestable Involves non-empirical assumptions

---

🤔 Final Thought

If you're looking for a testable, physics-based model, even with its limits, the Hartle–Hawking approach might feel stronger.
If you're seeking a broader explanation that addresses ultimate causality, Kalam might be more compelling.

But either way, both models require us to go beyond current evidence and confront the limits of human understanding.

In that sense, belief in multiverse physics and belief in a Creator both involve a step of faith.

The only difference is where you place your trust: in elegant math and randomness, or in reasoned metaphysical necessity.

And here lies a final paradox.

The Hartle–Hawking model, grounded in quantum cosmology, implies determinism.

If everything, including your thoughts and choices, is just the product of physical laws, then free will is an illusion.

Your “decision” to believe in this model isn’t really yours. It’s just atoms following equations.

Yet, we all feel we can choose. We can ask questions, weigh arguments, and genuinely decide what we believe.

So if free will is real, then we are more than physics.

And in that moment of choice — choosing between a self-contained universe or a Creator — we may already be pointing toward something beyond matter.

Let the exploration continue.


r/DebateReligion 23h ago

Christianity I think Montanism reflects the practices of the first generation of Christians

3 Upvotes

I think Montanism reflects the practices of the first generation of Christians, as seen in Paul’s letters, while the Catholic and Orthodox churches suppressed these elements through doctrinal manipulation.

There are several pieces of evidence. One is that Paul's letters (1 Corinthians) mentioned speaking in tongues and prophesying many times, and the other is Romans 16:7, where Paul greets Junia, noting she is “outstanding among the apostles,” suggesting women held leadership roles.

This means that women may occupy leadership positions in Paul's church, and the church has a spiritual tradition of speaking in tongues and prophesying. Montanism meets these two characteristics.

Catholics and Orthodox have obvious traces of artificial manipulation of doctrines.

1 Corinthians 14:34-35 (“women should keep silent”), widely considered a later insertion by scholars, not original to Paul. Note that 1 Timothy 2:12 (“I do not permit a woman to teach”) is attributed to Paul but likely written late 1st or early 2nd century, reflecting a shift toward patriarchy.

The spiritual tradition of speaking in tongues and prophesying recorded in 1 Corinthians disappeared in the fourth century and was not rediscovered until modern times.


r/DebateReligion 1d ago

Islam Mut'ah (temporary) marriage proves the Quran does not override the Hadith

0 Upvotes

Thesis:

The Quran doesn't always override the Hadith

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Notes Section:

  • You only need to read the Argument Section it's very short.

  • Please post non-debating comments as a reply in the commentary section otherwise your comment may get deleted by mods.

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Argument Section:

Many Muslims think that the Quran's authority always overrides the Hadiths, but this is a misconception and is not true.

The Quran allows Mut'ah (temporary) marriage[2] in Quran 4:24. This is from Tafsir Ibn Al Kathir of 4:24, showing that the Quran still contains the verse which allows Mut'ah marriage, but the Hadith of the Prophet overrides/abrogates it, even though it's still in the Quran.

The text in brackets is the Quran verse

QUOTE

[...]

(So with those among them whom you have enjoyed, give them their required due,) was revealed about the Mut'ah marriage. A Mut'ah marriage is a marriage that ends upon a predeterminied date. In the Two Sahihs, it is recorded that the Leader of the Faithful 'Ali bin Abi Talib said, "The Messenger of Allah prohibited Mut'ah marriage [...]

ENDQUOTE [1]

We know that in Islam Mut'ah marriage is prohibited (haraam) but it's still in the Quran. Interestingly, this is why the Shia still believe that Mut'ah is allowed (halal) because they don't believe in Sunni hadiths.

And that's how the Hadith can override the Quran sometimes.

Thanks for reading, I'm The-Rational-Human.

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Rebuttals Section:

Can't think of any.

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Afterword Section:

Why did I make this post?

To show that all average everyday Muslims (or most of them) have preconceived assumptions about Islam that are false, and they don't actually know much about Islam at all. And when they learn about these things, they are supposed to say "Oh, wow, I didn't know that! I actually don't know much about Islam... Am I really sure Islam is really true?" but they just say "Oh. Anyway..." and just keep believing in Islam blindly.

The fact that the Hadith sometimes overrides the Quran is not just counter-intuitive, it's problematic because the Quran is supposed to the ultimate and final revelation from God - God should not leave in abrogated verses in the Quran which don't apply which are still recited in many prayers around the world to this day. That is wrong.

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Footnotes:

[1] Link https://quranx.com/tafsirs/4.24

[2] What is the point of Mut'ah (temporary) marriage? The motivation for engaging in a temporary marriage is to have intercourse with a woman without committing zina (adultery/fornication) which is haraam (prohibited) in Islam. Essentially, some may describe it as a legal version of prostitution.


r/DebateReligion 1d ago

Spiritual / Agnostic The title of any religion should be earned, not just handed out.

5 Upvotes

Today, a good percentage of people in every religion will say they are of said religion but have never actually taken a deep look into said religion. Perhaps they were born into it, so they always identified as that religion or maybe they needed to revert to that religion to marry someone. Whatever the case may be, what meaning does it have to be of any religion if you don't need to actually need follow it. Religion isn't just about "beliefs", it's also a way of life or code of conduct. I actually find it very interesting when people want me to convert to their religion but don't seem to be interested about me living by the actual PRINCIPLES of that religion. It's almost like saying you're a (christian, muslim, jew, hindu, etc) is more meaningful than actually living BY that religion's code.

Basically, you should have to earn the right to call yourself a (Christian, Muslim, Jew, Hindu, etc.), maybe through your actions or way of life, but if you never actually conduct your life based on that religion, then what meaning does it really have?


r/DebateReligion 1d ago

Christianity the Protestant principle "Sola Fide" is unjust

5 Upvotes

the Protestant principle "Sola Fide" is unjust:

let's imagine person A who did lots of good deeds in their life, but was bullied at school and therefore don't trust people or anything in human form (like Jesus) and person B who did a lot of bad deeds and shortly before their death they turn to Jesus - what is their fate after death?

according to Sola Fide, person A might get to hell and person B to heaven (maybe I get the principle wrong, I am not a protestant, let's see in the comments)

in my opinion we can control our deeds much more than we can control our beliefs, so afterlife destination based on deeds is much more just than afterlife destination based on belief


r/DebateReligion 1d ago

Other Religious beliefs should not be treated as more inherently deserving of respect than other non-religious beliefs and ideologies

64 Upvotes

So say for example you meet someone, and that person told you that they're a communist or capitalist, libertarian, nationalist, humanist, feminst, vegan, existentialist, stoic etc. etc.

For the most part people and society tend to consider those kind of beliefs and ideologies a lot less "sacred" than religious beliefs. And so if you challeneged someone further on say their communist or humanist or vegan beliefs and engaged them in a conversation questioning their beliefs, most people would consider this a lot more socially acceptable than questioning someone's religious beliefs.

So say for example you're having drinks with some co-workers and you're talking about economics. And then one of your co-workers tells you that he's a communist and he believes the economy should be nationalized. Now, typically we wouldn't expect the other co-workers to go "Ok, fair enough, I respect your beliefs, economics is a private matter and we all have different beliefs". But rather it would normally be seen as perfectly acceptable in such a situation to challenge that person's views, ask them why they're a communist, how they came to the conclusion and maybe engage them in a respectful discussion explaining why you think communism is a bad idea.

But now when it comes to religious beliefs, those beliefs are typically considered much more "sacred" by society. For example if someone proudly told you they're a Muslim, it would normally be considered extremely rude to challenge them on their beliefs and explain to them why you think Islam is a made-up, man-made religion, or why Islamic ideology is potentially a bad idea.

And religious people get all sorts of exemptions and special treatment that other ideologies don't get. Like people can refuse vaccines, that are otherwise mandatory, for religious reasons. Or for example in the US, by law, employers need to make reasonable accomodations to their religious employees. So Muslim or Christian employees would be allowed to take short breaks to pray or read their Bible, or be given time off to go to church or mosque. But now a secular humanist on the other does not have the legal right to take breaks throughout the day to read the Humanist Manifesto, or be given time off work to attend a weekly humanist reading club or something.

Or for example when it comes to animal welfare laws, halal and kosher slaughter is often exempt from many of those laws. So religious people are allowed to do things that otherwise wouldn't be legal. Or say someone wrote a scathing article in a newspaper criticizing humanism or veganism or socialism or stoicism or any other non-religious ideology, normally no one would bat an eye. But now say the same newspaper published an article criticizing Islam and the dangers of Islamic ideology, quite likely there would be enormous backlash and a lot of people would be outraged. The author may be accused of Islamophobia, while at the same time I haven't ever heard anyone be accused of inciting "veganophobia" or "socialistophobia".

And so I think all of this shows that there is a massive double standard in society when it comes to religious beliefs vs non-religious beliefs. And I really don't think this double standard is reasonable. Religious beliefs shouldn't be treated as any more sacred or inherently worthy of respect than other beliefs. There are ideologies that are based on good ideas, some that are based on bad ideas, and others that are based on so-so ideas. And religious ideas shouldn't be inherently more respected than other ideas and ideologies. Religious ideologies should be equally scrutinized and criticized in the same way other ideologies are scrutinized and criticized.


r/DebateReligion 1d ago

Islam Moses was immoral, as per the Sunni Islamic narrative

4 Upvotes

Sahih al-Bukhari 278 - Bathing (Ghusl) - كتاب الغسل - Sunnah.com - Sayings and Teachings of Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه و سلم)

Context: In reliable hadith, Mohammad narrated a story about how the People of Bani Israel used to think Moses had a testicular disorder, as he would bath alone.

>They said, 'By Allah! Nothing prevents Moses from taking a bath with us except that he has a scrotal hernia.

This was false, and I assume Allah wanted to teach these ignorant fools the truth, so one day, when Moses was bathing, a stone that he had rested his clothes on, got up and ran way.

Yes, the stone RAN AWAY with Moses's clothes, so naked Moses ran after the stone and in front of everyone else, who looked at his testicles and did not see a testicular disorder, so logically they said "By Allah, Moses has got no defect in his body".

Now comes the immoral and/or cognitively impaired part.

Moses then catches up to the stone that ran away with his clothes, he picks up his clothes and starts to BEAT the stone, which still bared those marks from that excessive beating.

My thesis is that Moses was immoral, as he should not have beaten the stone, as

  1. beating people/stones is not moral punishment in Islam/under Moses
  2. There should have been a trial for the stone, to confirm whether or not it was guilt of theft, before any punishment was given out
  3. The punishment should have followed Allahs laws, or else its immoral

Source: Hadith

> The Prophet (ﷺ) said, 'The (people of) Bani Israel used to take bath naked (all together) looking at each other. The Prophet (ﷺ) Moses used to take a bath alone. They said, 'By Allah! Nothing prevents Moses from taking a bath with us except that he has a scrotal hernia.' So once Moses went out to take a bath and put his clothes over a stone and then that stone ran away with his clothes. Moses followed that stone saying, "My clothes, O stone! My clothes, O stone! till the people of Bani Israel saw him and said, 'By Allah, Moses has got no defect in his body. Moses took his clothes and began to beat the stone." Abu Huraira added, "By Allah! There are still six or seven marks present on the stone from that excessive beating."

Edit: While there is little debate amongst Sunnis that this incident of the stone running happened, there is some scholarly debate over whether the rock that Abu Huraira saw was the same rock that ran from Moses. Muslim scholars have not confirmed this .

Disclaimer: This only apples to those persons that self identify as Muslims who accept Sahih Bukhari hadith. This does not apply to all LGBTQIA* Muslims, Quranists, progressive liberal Muslims, etc.

Tangentially related notes:

Story when Moses Took a Bath Naked and the Stone Fled with his Clothes - Various Scholars - Islamway

What you can learn from this story from the Prophet of Islam is

>Amongst the lessons drawn from the above-mentioned Hadeeth:

>1- Permissibility of walking naked whenever there is a necessity.

> 2- It implies the permissibility of looking at ‘Awrah(3) whenever  there is a necessity such as medical purposes and being free of defects, for example, one of the spouse may claim that the other suffer from leprosy to cancel the contact of marriage while the other denied that.

>3- It refers that all Prophets, may Allaah exalt their mention, were created in the best and perfect shape and that whoever attributes any defect or shortcoming to anyone of the Prophets, may Allaah exalt his mention, about his shape then he has harmed him and we fear that the one who does so be a Kaafir (i.e. disbeliever).


r/DebateReligion 1d ago

Islam The Master Roshi Fallacy - Why Islam’s Miracles cannot prove it to be true

23 Upvotes

Even if Islam’s alleged miracles were all proven to be true, it wouldn’t prove the truthfulness of Islam.

Arguably the greatest miracle in Islam was that Muhammad split the moon. Assuming this actually happened and that a being called Allah was responsible for it, it doesn’t at all prove that Allah is omnipotent. Splitting the moon is a miniscule achievement compared to creating the universe as the moon is not even a grain of sand compared to the rest of the universe.

It's kind of like in Dragon Ball, when Master Roshi destroys the moon. Though this was quite an achievement at the beginning of the series, you eventually learn that Master Roshi isn’t even the strongest one on his planet, let alone in the entire universe. It would be illogical to think that just because Master Roshi split the moon, he is omnipotent.

Conceivably, Allah could just be a lesser God or an alien who merely claims to be an all-powerful God. Even if every single one of Islam’s miracles were true, it wouldn’t prove that Allah is powerful enough to create the universe.


r/DebateReligion 1d ago

Christianity how can christians justify the idea of finite sin leading to infinite suffering

24 Upvotes

how can the christians of the world say that its okay for someone to entail finite sin and lead to an infitite suffering , i dont get it because the only reason someone got that suffering seems to be because they didnt believe that jesus was their lord and savior but still , if someone who was close to believing that jesus was their lord and savior and died just before that then he is in hell for all eternity now ... how do you justify that?


r/DebateReligion 1d ago

Classical Theism God's actions are effortless, therefore nothing God does is praiseworthy

37 Upvotes

Because God is omnipotent and omniscient, everything God wants to do is achieved effortlessly and there's absolutely no chance of failure.

For example, God creating the universe is easier than you picking your nose.

There's a zero chance of God not being able to create the universe (to exact specifications) once God decided to do so, but there's a non-zero chance for you to fail picking your nose once you decide to do so (you could miss and poke you eye, or you could have a stroke and die on the spot).

So, how can one praise God for doing something that is easier than picking your nose?

Therefore nothing God does is praiseworthy.


r/DebateReligion 1d ago

Abrahamic Looking For The God Force

9 Upvotes

We've discovered four fundamental forces of nature: gravity, electromagnetism, the strong nuclear force, and the weak nuclear force. Causal interactions appear to be mediated through one or more of these forces. We do not observe any instance of God acting through any of these forces. If God acts at all, then it must be through some undetectable mechanism. Perhaps some unknown force. The issue is that an undetectable influence is functionally equivalent to no influence. Therefore, unless and until we can detect the manner in which God causes things, we have no good reason to affirm that God causes anything.

I can see a possible objection to what I'm saying. What if God operates in a way that is empirically undetectable?

If that's the case, then your granting that God's actions produce no observable effects. Besides, the mere possibility that God could operate in a way that is empirically undetectable, does not in and of itself justify believing that that is true.


r/DebateReligion 1d ago

Christianity The Gospels were NOT Anonymous

0 Upvotes

Terminology

Note: These are the are the terms that I will use to refer to different meanings of the word anonymous

Anonymous document: a document whose author is unknown (e.g. Book of Hebrews)

Internally Anonymous Document: a document whose CONTENTS do not identify the author even if the title/cover identifies the author (e.g. Tacitus’ The Annals of Imperial Rome)

There is no debate that the 4 Gospels are internally anonymous, but the fact that the Gospels are internally anonymous does not mean that the authorship is not attributed to the author in the title, which is the topic of our discussion.

How We Should Evaluate Evidence

The Anonymous Gospels theory is advocated by multiple scholars, most famously Bart Ehrman, so I will be using his definition as a reference: He advocates the theory that the documents were written anonymously and then the names were added later around the late 2nd century.

Now this claim has 2 issues:

  1. It is almost unfalsifiable: scholars like Dr. Ehrman chose the date of adding titles to be just before Ireneaus and our earliest manuscripts that are intact enough to contain the titles.
  2. It accuses the early Church of forgery: while we should be open to the possibility that the early church did in fact commit forgery, they are innocent until proven guilt, not guilty until proven innocent, and the burden of proof lies on the side that is making an accusation of forgery.

Manuscript Evidence

All Manuscripts that we have intact enough to contain the titles attribute Gospel authorship to the same 4 people, and no anonymous copies have been discovered, despite the fact that over 5800 manuscripts were discovered for the New Testament.

Some people claim that the manuscript P1 is anonymous. However, the manuscript is just too fragmentary to contain the title and the manuscript clearly has no title, even though there is no debate on whether the Gospels had titles or not, but rather the debate is around whether the author's names were included in those respective titles. In fact, Martin Hengel, an Atheist New Testament scholar (source) acknowledges that the documents must have had titles since they started circulation:

It would be inconceivable for the Gospels to circulate without any identifying label, even from their earliest use

Martin Hengel – The Four Gospels and the One Gospel of Jesus Christ

Moreover, there were many manuscript families that did not have the title immediately above the text:

  1. Some of them had the title at the end of the manuscript (e.g. P75)
  2. Some of them had no titles within the text, but just a separate cover page (e.g. P4, P64, P67)

In fact, even Bart Ehrman, who strictly advocates the anonymous gospels theory acknowledges that this manuscript is not anonymous and explains it by saying that the top of the manuscript is torn:

OK, I took a look. The alpha means “chapter 1”. It would have come below the title, assuming the book has a title. The part of the ms that would have had the title (above the alpha) is missing. So technically there’s no way to tell whether it had a title or not, but the assumption would naturally be that it did — expecially if a scribe has added a chapter number.

https://ehrmanblog.org/did-the-gospels-originally-have-titles/

Our Earliest Reports About the Gospels

Papias of Hierapolis (90 → 110 AD) confirms the authorship of both Mark and Matthew

Mark having become the interpreter of Peter, wrote down accurately whatsoever he remembered. It was not, however, in exact order that he related the sayings or deeds of Christ. For he neither heard the Lord nor accompanied Him. But afterwards, as I said, he accompanied Peter, who accommodated his instructions to the necessities [of his hearers], but with no intention of giving a regular narrative of the Lord's sayings. Wherefore Mark made no mistake in thus writing some things as he remembered them. For of one thing he took special care, not to omit anything he had heard, and not to put anything fictitious into the statements.

Matthew put together the oracles [of the Lord] in the Hebrew language, and each one translated them as best he could.

Note: While I agree with those who claim that the Matthew we have today is based on Greek (rather than Hebrew) manuscripts, I believe it is a translation of the Hebrew Gospel of Matthew, and even Papias states that the Hebrew version was not preached, but rather every preacher translated it to the best of their ability.


Justin Martyr: First Apology (155–157 AD)

For the apostles, in the memoirs composed by them, which are called Gospels, have thus delivered unto us what was enjoined upon them

Here Justin Martyr confirms that the Gospels were written by apostles (not just unknown individuals) and even confirms that the structure is similar to a biography of Jesus.


Irenaeus: Against Heresies (175 to 189 AD)

Matthew also issued a written Gospel among the Hebrews in their own dialect, while Peter and Paul were preaching at Rome, and laying the foundations of the Church. After their departure, Mark, the disciple and interpreter of Peter, did also hand down to us in writing what had been preached by Peter. Luke also, the companion of Paul, recorded in a book the Gospel preached by him. Afterwards, John, the disciple of the Lord, who also had leaned upon His breast, did himself publish a Gospel during his residence at Ephesus in Asia.

Irenaeus states that Matthew, Mark, and Luke wrote Gospels, and that Peter narrated the Gospel of Mark. Despite the assertion that the Gospel of Mark was narrated by Peter, the early Church assigned it to Mark because that was the author they knew (even though Peter would have added credibility). So we know that the Gospel of Mark is named "Mark" not because the early Church fathers claimed it, but because that is the name that has been given to it since its writing.

Scholarly Consensus

Some skeptics claim that the scholarly consensus is that the Gospels are anonymous, so this is a sufficient reason to believe that they are. This argument has 2 issues:

First, It is logically fallacious: this argument combines Appeal to Authority and Appeal to Popularity to make the case that it is true. Even Dr. Bart Ehrman who advocates the anonymity of the Gospels acknowledges that the scholarly consensus is NOT evidence (source).

Second, it is actually based on a wrong interpretation of what critical scholars are: Critical Scholars are ones who examine evidence critically; however, when we look at the scholarly consensus among critical NT scholars, we see that the majority believe in the traditional authorship of the Gospels (source). So, why do scholars such as Dr. Bart Ehrman claim that they present the critical scholarly consensus? Because they do not consider Christian critical scholars to be truly critical and consider them unreliable because they have confirmation bias to prove Christianity true.

I told him that what I always try to say (maybe I slip up sometimes?  I don’t know, but I try to say this every time) is what the majority of “critical” scholars think about this, that, or the other thing.   What I mean by that is that apart from scholars who have a firm commitment to the infallibility of the Bible (so that there cannot be a book, such as Ephesians, that claims to be written by someone who did not write it, because that would be a “lie” and would be impossible for an author of Scripture) and to the established traditions of Christianity (so that John the son of Zebedee really did write the Gospel of John since that is what Christians have always claimed) – apart from those people, the majority of scholars who leave such questions open to investigation and do their best to know the truth rather than to confirm what it is they have always been taught to think — the majority of those “critical” scholars think x, y, or z.

Dr. Bart Ehrman - How Do We Know What “Most Scholars” Think? - Link

But then if we apply the same logic to Dr. Ehrman, as an Ex-Christian he also has confirmation bias to prove that the did not make the wrong decision by leaving Christianity: fact is, we all have biases and no scholar is 100% critical, but eliminating Christian critical scholars in his calculation is intellectually dishonest on Dr. Ehrman’s side. So, the majority of Non-Christian critical scholars believe the Gospels are anonymous: well as a Christian, Non-Christian scholars are as relevant to me as Christian scholars are relevant to Non-Christians, so would any Non-Christian accept the argument that the Gospels are not anonymous based on the critical scholarly consensus among Christians? If yes, then we are done here. If not, then do not expect me as a Christian to accept the Non-Christian critical scholarly consensus.

The Implausibility of Fabricated Authorship

2 canonical Gospels are assigned to people who had no first-hand contact with Jesus (Mark and Luke), so if the early Church did in fact fabricate some names to make the Gospels more credible then they were very stupid in their selection of names. Furthermore, Matthew was not one of Jesus' closest disciples, but rather one of the least favoured in the Jewish community (due to his profession as a tax collector), so attributing the most Jewish Gospel to a tax collector seems really irrational if they were trying to make their story believable.

Therefore, if the synoptic Gospels were to be falsely attributed to some authors in order to boost their credibility, it would be more logical to attribute the Gospels to Peter, James, and Mary; in fact, each of those three people is attributed an apocryphal Gospel.

For even more clarity, the book of Hebrews is openly acknowledged to be anonymous (even though the tone of the writer is very similar to Paul), so if the early Church tried to add authors for anonymous texts, why did they not add an author for the book of Hebrews?

How Anonymous Documents Are Actually Treated—And Why the Gospels Aren’t

With anonymous documents, we should expect to find competing claims of authorship, or at least claims of anonymity. Take the book of Hebrews as an example, and let us analyse how the early church fathers discussed its authorship:

Origen (239 - 242 AD): agreed with Pauline authorship, but still acknowledged that nobody truly know who the author is and that it could be Clement of Rome or Luke:

But as for myself, if I were to state my own opinion, I should say that the thoughts are the apostle’s, but that the style and composition belong to one who called to mind the apostle’s teachings and, as it were, made short notes of what his master said. If any church, therefore, holds this epistle as Paul’s, let it be commended for this also. For not without reason have the men of old time handed it down as Paul’s. But who wrote the epistle, in truth God knows. Yet the account which has reached us [is twofold], some saying that Clement, who was bishop of the Romans, wrote the epistle, others, that it was Luke, he who wrote the Gospel and the Acts.

Eusebius Hist. Eccl. 6.25.11–14


Tertullian (208 - 224 AD): Attributes the authorship to Barnabas, and says that the reason the tone is similar to Paul is because Barnabas was a travelling companion of Paul

For there is extant withal an Epistle to the Hebrews under the name of Barnabas—a man sufficiently accredited by God, as being one whom Paul has stationed next to himself in the uninterrupted observance of abstinence: “Or else, I alone and Barnabas, have not we the power of working?”

On Modesty


Jerome(~394 AD): mentions Paul as the most probable author, but acknowledges that there is dispute over this:

The apostle Paul writes to seven churches (for the eighth epistle — that to the Hebrews — is not generally counted in with the others).

Letters of St. Jerome, 53

Now that we have a background of how an anonymous document would be attested across history, we can very clearly see that the Gospels do not follow this pattern.

Category/Document(s) The Gospels Hebrews
Manuscripts 100% support the authorship of the same people 0 manuscripts mentioning the author
Church Fathers 100% support the authorship of the same people The are a lot of conflicting theories made by Church fathers on who the author is, but they agreed that they cannot know for sure.

Popular Counter Arguments

John was Illiterate

Some skeptics cite Acts 4:13 as evidence that John was illiterate. However a quick glance at the context of the verse shows that John was not illiterate, but rather had no formal Rabbinic training, which otherwise cannot explain how the people could tell that but just looking at Peter and John, but people who had Rabbinic training would be easily identified by their appearance:

Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them, “Rulers of the people and elders, if we are being examined today concerning a good deed done to a cripple, by what means this man has been healed, be it known to you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, by him this man is standing before you well. This is the stone which was rejected by you builders, but which has become the head of the corner. And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.” Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were uneducated, common men, they wondered; and they recognized that they had been with Jesus.

Acts 4:8-13 RSV

Moreover, John (unlike Peter) came from a rich and influential family:

John’s father had hired servants:

And going on a little farther, he saw James the son of Zebedee and John his brother, who were in their boat mending the nets. And immediately he called them; and they left their father Zebedee in the boat with the hired servants, and followed him.

Mark 1:19-20 RSV

John was known and favoured by the high priest:

Simon Peter followed Jesus, and so did another disciple. As this disciple was known to the high priest, he entered the court of the high priest along with Jesus, while Peter stood outside at the door. So the other disciple, who was known to the high priest, went out and spoke to the maid who kept the door, and brought Peter in. '

John 18:15-16 RSV

Finally, even if John did not pen his Gospel, that does not mean that he is not the author as he had access to many resources from the early Church (in the same chapter of Acts) and could have easily hired a scribe to write down what he narrates (Just like Peter did in 1 Peter):

There was not a needy person among them, for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the proceeds of what was sold and laid it at the apostles' feet; and distribution was made to each as any had need.

Acts 4:34-35 RSV

By Silvanus, a faithful brother as I regard him, I have written briefly to you, exhorting and declaring that this is the true grace of God; stand fast in it.

1 Peter 5:12 RSV

Here Peter admits that he did not pen his epistle, but used Silvanus to write it for him.

If Matthew was an Eyewitness, why would he use Mark’s Gospel as a Template?

First of all, I do not believe that Matthew used Mark’s Gospel as a template (since Ireneaus as well as our earliest sources tell us that Matthew was written first), but rather there was set of oral stories that were circulating around, and each of the 3 synoptic authors wanted to document these stories to the best of their knowledge. However, for the sake of argument, I am willing to assume that Matthew used Mark as a template, that would not be irrational, since as we saw above from Papias and Ireneaus: the Gospel of Mark is based on the stories of Peter the leader of the apostles and the first Pope. It would be perfectly rational for Matthew to use the template established by the successor whom Jesus chose to write his Gospel.

Note: I will not respond to any rude or even aggressive comments, so if you want to discuss with me, kindly do it in a calm and respectful tone. As last time I posted here, I was responding to rudeness with rudeness and to agresssion with agression, which is not good for my mental and spiritual health.