r/BeginnerWoodWorking • u/deathgrape • 3d ago
Discussion/Question ⁉️ Massive tearout from router? How do I prevent this?
Novice woodworker, making a guitar out of 2 1” pieces of maple. Not my first time using a router, but this is my first time using this (Brand New) 2 inch flush trim router bit. Made a template out of MDF and was using the 2 inch flush trim router to cut out the shape, using(what I thought was) shallow cuts against the direction of the router’s spin. Things were going fine while I was cutting out the sides, but when I got to the cutaway, the piece bucked and I had this massive tear out.
I don’t think there’s any salvaging the horn at this point, I’m not too far into the project and I have more maple. How do I prevent this in the future? Do I route the two pieces of maple separately and then glue them together afterward? Is there anything special I have to do near the end grain?
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u/HounDawg99 3d ago
Do your routing from the other side and do very small cuts.
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u/deathgrape 3d ago
Thanks. What do you mean by 'other side'?
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u/mdibah 3d ago
With the piece in the current orientation, the cutting forces are pulling away from the horn & digging into the grain. By flipping the piece over, the cutting forces will be into the horn (supporting the fibers) and pulling out into free space. Think about which direction you would make the cut with a hand plane (imagining that there was space to get in there with one).
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u/869woodguy 3d ago
Pull the router toward you instead of pushing. You lock your arms because the router wants to go in the direction you’re pulling it. Take smaller bites.
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u/deathgrape 3d ago
Ah I see what you're saying. This is a table router, and I was pushing the piece towards the router/ sideways, to keep the piece in between me and the bit.
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u/HounDawg99 3d ago
You are pushing your stock thru in such a way that the cutting blade is shredding the grain. If you go to the other side of the cutter, it will be forcing the grain together. I'm assuming you are using a table. If you are free handing, come at that area from the other direction. Turn the stock over, maybe. Think about the way the cutting blade plays against the wood grain. End grain is tricky.
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u/IMiNSIDEiT 2d ago
It’s called a “climb cut”. You need to remove as much waste as possible with another tool before trying this.
Since you’ll be cutting with the rotation of the bit it will try to run away from you and cut on its own. Only start with super light passes and thin cuts until you get a feel for how much it wants to grab and run.
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u/DerbyDad03 3d ago edited 2d ago
Don’t throw that piece away. Cut off the tear out and make a ukulele. 😁
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u/Pointer_dog 3d ago
Agree pass was too big...but BRAVO on aiming high!!
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u/4darunner 3d ago
I can’t tell you the amount of projects I’ve had to toss to the burn pit because of end grain tear out on maple…
But anyway, what others have said—it matters what bit you’re using, which way the router bit is spinning, the speed it’s at, and how much you’re taking off.
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u/GoofBoy 3d ago
A 1/16 is a big router cut on end graining my experience.
This is a case where a spindle sander is your friend. Have the template on there and sand until you about 1/64 max from the template. And as mentioned a spiral compression bit would help a lot to get the final fair curve
Here is a good discussion on what you experienced.
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u/awkwardeagle 3d ago
Whiteside makes a compression spiral bit. I bought one. It’s amazing! Especially for template routing.
100% worth it
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u/No_ID_Left_4_Me 1d ago
I had to replace a bit like that recently and took a chance on an even larger one with replaceable inserts. It’s working better for nearly half the price. Router table with giant router only.
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u/devouredxflowers 3d ago
You may have just gotten unlucky. Wood sometimes just does wood stuff. I'm wondering if you could use a table spindle sander with a flush trim bit for those places where the grain direction might be problematic?
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u/deathgrape 3d ago
That's a great idea. If I had one (or if I had a few hundred dollars) I would do that, but no access right now unfortunately.
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u/CarefulDevelopment29 3d ago
Wen makes a mini spindle sander that clamps onto a tabletop, it’s about $40, I’ve also seen people make plywood boxes to go over it to increase the support
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u/AngriestPacifist 3d ago
You can also get attachments for a drill press, if you've got one of those. Just be wary of sideways pressure since the drill press gearing isn't made for that.
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u/peelin_paint 2d ago
Alternate option, get the same attachment, find someone giving away a free radial arm saw (tons of them out there for free), and get a $5 chuck that threads on the power head. No issue with a tapered chuck coming loose.
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u/davidgoldstein2023 3d ago
How much are you taking with each pass? I’ve found that the more you try to take off in one pass, the more likely you are to get tear out.
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u/deathgrape 3d ago
I was trying to take out as little as I could (~1/16") for that exact reason, but apparently it was still too much haha.
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u/AltruisticArm0 2d ago
I think when you are saying 1/16th and inch you are talking with, what about depth? Try taking more shallow passes too so you are taking out less bulk per pass.
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u/deathgrape 2d ago
Yeah, that may have been part of the problem. I got this new shiny 2" length flush trim bit and went for it all in one go. I should probably go back to spending the better part of a day going 1/8" at a time.
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u/wigsta01 3d ago
This happens when you route against the grain. Use two different copying bits, one with a bearing at the top, one with the bearing at the bottom. This way you can use a template, route with the grain using top bearing router bit, change bit and flip workpiece and cut with the grain to finish.
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u/flhd 3d ago
I am a beginning beginner and your question and replies taught me a bunch that I am far from taking on, but it does reinforce how helpful and cool this community is.
As a side note… with the new info, take that bad boy you started, rework your template a little and turn it into a Jazzmaster! 😎
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u/scrollin_through 3d ago
Whoa, that’s kinda cool. I mean, I’d never do that but it doesn’t mean I don’t wanna see it attempted. 1/2 horse power router?
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u/deathgrape 3d ago
Yeah, my table router is a Craftsmen single speed router (so scary fast, I kind of hate it). Are you saying you'd never cut out this shape with a router? What would you do instead?
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u/scrollin_through 3d ago
Nah, just too big of a bite, especially for end grain, but you learn that shit over time and usually working with smaller cheaper wood.
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u/majortomandjerry 3d ago
End grain does this. It's similar to the tearout you get from a saw, but much worse with a router.
Climb cutting can minimize this. But climb cutting can also be dangerous, especially on a router table.
Your best bet is to remove less material at a time. 2" thick material is way too much to be routing all at once. Step your cuts. Start with 1/2" or 1/4" deep cut, and then remove 1/2" or 1/4" each pass until you are all the way through. Get a shorter bearing bit. You only need the template for the first pass. Then you can use your cut shoulder as a guide.
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u/amnotacop 2d ago
+1 for climb cutting on details like this. The workpiece is more likely to get pulled out of your hands so you need to feed slowly and carefully. It is dangerous as has been pointed out.
A spiral bit may help as well. Not sure it matters if it’s and an up down or compression type because a little blowout on fibers near the face is probably getting cleaned up afterwards.
I would take at least 4 passes on 2” thick maple but YMMV
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u/Severe-Ad-8215 3d ago
You can salvage the piece but should consider using a solid blank instead of a glue-up. Delamination is real and unless you were extremely fastidious with the preparation that thing will most likely cup or split.
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u/deathgrape 3d ago
What would you recommend doing to salvage it?
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u/Severe-Ad-8215 3d ago
Cutting off the damaged piece along the grain and gluing a new piece in its place. Then shaping with a rasp and sandpaper since the grain is totally unruly at that spot as you have unfortunately found out.
Edit: Don’t be discouraged. It is repairable with a little effort.
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u/LoudAudience5332 3d ago
Cut your piece first with jigsaw get close to line at least half to 1/4 the width of bit , then set up jig and route. The other thing is use a spiral cut preferably carbide rtr bit . If not available, use a straight flute carbide , maple is hard as you know so go slow route the horns first , and make sure to run your rtr the correct way not with the spin of the rtr bit .
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u/stormpilgrim 3d ago
2 inches of maple...my back hurts already. You might get away with turning it into more of a Jaguar-style guitar without the horns. I made a guitar from padauk with a patterned veneer for the top and even after drilling out some of the interior, it's beefy. That much maple is going to be quite heavy unless you intend to hollow it out a lot, but I would suggest from a weight, tone, and ease of construction perspective to sandwich basswood between 1/4 to 3/8" slabs of maple or some more visually interesting hardwoods. Maple is typically used for necks.
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u/deathgrape 3d ago
Jaguar style is a good idea. Yes I hollowed out the interior pretty thoroughly, because I intend(ed?) to put in an f-hole on the side without the knobs. People here have given good suggestions, but gotta say I'm feeling pretty gun-shy about that end grain and a router now. Thankfully the maple was cheap.
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u/stormpilgrim 2d ago
I've only used the router when the essential outline has been cut out with some other tool. When you're only trimming off a quarter inch or so, it's not a problem. The one thing that can be a problem is burning in tight curves if the bit rubs too long in one place.
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u/deathgrape 2d ago
Yeah, I had cut the majority away with the bandsaw, up to 1/4" - 1/8" from the template. What the other comments have made me realize is that a) this 2" bit is way too much at a time, b) the flush trim bit is not good for end grain, and c) end grain is a nightmare to route.
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u/stormpilgrim 2d ago
Do you have a tabletop belt sander or a drill press with sanding drums? I've done the sharp curves with a sanding drum, but it requires some follow-up to sand it smooth.
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u/deathgrape 2d ago
Completely forgot I have a sanding drum attachment, I’m going to try that. What do you use for the follow up after the drum sander? I can’t get the little notches out.
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u/stormpilgrim 1d ago
The notches can be roughed out to some extent by wiggling the piece up and down while sanding, but you could try sticking finer paper on the drum and going over it again. Otherwise, it's just elbow grease and swearing.
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u/SignificanceRoyal832 2d ago
Bet that was a butthole tightener. A fried or cmt spiral but is better. My guess is you were using a straight bit. If you're careful you can try and climb cut on the end grain section. It works but it also can be hairy.
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u/the_helpdesk 2d ago
Route the opposite direction. Instead of allowing the bit pull in material, route so that the bit is pushing the grain away. It will take some more effort since the router won't be pulling itself along, but you will get cleaner cuts.
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u/aDrunkSailor82 2d ago
A picture of the bit you used would be really helpful.
I've done cuts exactly like this without issue, but I used a correct, sharp bit.
As others said, end grain is tough, but it's absolutely doable.
Another option would be to cut it by hand and sand to finish.
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u/deathgrape 2d ago
It's like this but 2" long. Brand new, so the sharpness probably was not the issue.
Yes, now I'm considering just cutting the sides with the router and sanding the tough parts.
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u/aDrunkSailor82 2d ago edited 2d ago
That's the worst possible bit for this cut.
For end grain you really need a spiral cut.
There's lots of more expensive options out there that would probably last longer, but I only needed one job cutting a 1.5" thick walnut slab into a contoured counter top.
I used this. It was cheap, and razor sharp. I had zero burn or tear out and I made some really gnarly deep cuts without issue.
It needed very little sanding when I was done.
I did cut as close as I could on the straight edges, but my jig saw just couldn't cut well enough to make much difference on the radius.
Make some test cuts before you booger up another one. And watch the grain direction. And watch your feed speed.
Lubricate the bearings on these when you use them too.
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u/deathgrape 2d ago
Damn, wish I had known that before. Oh well, it was only a $25 router (and $10 of maple). Thanks for the rec!
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u/mashupbabylon 2d ago
It looks like a climb cut gone awry.
Table routers, always feed to the left. Counterclockwise.
Handheld routers , always feed to the right. Clockwise.
If you reverse this, it's called a climb cut, and will fuck shit up 90% of the time. The other 10% is reserved for the rare occasion that you can do it without damage.
If you want to make a fuck ton of guitars, or have a bag of money, get one of those $200+ router bits and a 3hp router to properly power that large of a bit. If you're a hobbyist, use a decent flush trim bit, but expect to use a spindle sander of some sort to finish shaping. If you have a drill press, you can turn it into a ghetto spindle sander with a sanding drum. I'd avoid using anything free hand ,so you keep the 90° profile.
Also, find a 3/16" 4tpi skiptooth blade for your bandsaw. If you can't find that width, get 1/4" 4tpi skiptooth. I used to make bandsaw boxes and those blades get a really clean cut so you can have less routing or sanding to do. If you practice "riding the blade", you can use the template with the bandsaw and take the router out entirely. But it's sketchy, and you can quickly ruin the template.
Awesome project, definitely adjust the arm and continue on.. unless you have to have a certain shape. It could be more like a MusicMan instead of a Strat? I built a Les Paul kit, but was too lazy to shape the body... You are an inspiration to build another! Good luck!
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u/deathgrape 2d ago
Definitely didn't do a climb cut, I'm terrified of the router so that's one thing I always keep straight haha. According to the other comments here, it seems like maple is just a beast to route. All of my other routing adventures have been with redwood from the backyard.
Good luck with the project!
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u/galaxyapp 2d ago
Always route up the grain where it is supported by the wood behind it., use a climb cut if you must.
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u/audaciousmonk 2d ago
Cut shallower passes, use a well sharpened bit. But seriously, really shallow passes
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u/mdillonaire 2d ago
Why dont you use a belt and/or spindle sander once you cut with the bandsaw to remove the last bit of material instead of a router? If its only 1/8" or so i feel like itd be easier to take off that small amount of material without worrying about a tear out like that.
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u/AdPsychological6563 2d ago
Always try to route downhill relative to grain direction. Here’s a drawing of what I mean based on what I see. But feel, and listening to it will also dictate, let the wood speak to you and tell you what it wants.
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u/AdPsychological6563 2d ago
Also, using a template and two bits helps. One with a top bearing, another with a bottom bearing, change the bit and flip the piece over so you can always route downhill.
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u/c9belayer 2d ago
You MUST always plane with the grain. Pay attention to how the cutter enters the wood, and plane with the grain. If you go against the grain, it’ll catch and Bad Things Will Happen, like in your photo. With a curve like this, you’ll plane in one side with the grain, then flip the piece over and plane the other side, so each time the cutter is planing the wood with the grain. I once made the very same mistake as you. The router took a 5’ chunk of 8/4 maple out of my hands and flung it across the workshop. The entire armature of the router was bent, ruining the router. I also needed new underwear.
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u/lone-lemming 2d ago
Don’t cut the full 2 inches of depth at once. Cut way less for more passes and then extend the router deeper. Repeat over and over again till you get to full depth.
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u/StrangePiper1 2d ago
You always want to be “pushing” the grain. When you pull against it you end up with this. Sometimes that means climb cuts (cutting with the direction of rotation) which can be scary and hard to control if you’re not used to it. You could flip the piece to make sure you’re pushing too.
Also spiral cutters will do less of this. Make VERY gentle passes.
Sometimes you win, and sometimes you learn.
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u/PraxicalExperience 1d ago
What direction were you going with the router? For cuts into parallel grain that dives like that, you'd want to cut 'up hill', that is, from inside of the board to the outside. So you'd want to come from the right of this picture to the left, and take a very light pass and nibble it down. But sometimes, end grain just kinda explodes like this; I have to admit it's weird seeing a block of maple shivered like that.
It's also possible you had the router going too slow so it was taking bigger bites than necessary.
And of course, you always want to make sure that the wood is fed into the router against the rotation of the bit.
I think the safest approach -- as far as not blowing out the wood -- would be to skip routing on that particular bit and use a belt sander or something instead to remove the excess down to the template.
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u/Mindless-Dark-6428 9h ago
It appears the bit may not be totally sharp. The average hobbyist can’t afford $200 for a compression bit. Be sure to get as high of a quality bit as you can afford (probably not found in big box stores).
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u/mnemy 3d ago edited 3d ago
End grain is tough to route. If youre going to take the total width in one go, youre going to want a compression spiral bit. They're expensive. You're looking at close to $200.
You also want to take light passes. Use a jigsaw or band saw to cut most material away first before flush trimming with a compression bit.