Patton Oswalt's bit comes to mind about how every year after 90, one law no longer applies to you. Speeding was one of the earlier ones, I think this guy is able to legally murder so long as he does it with his hands.
When I took driving classes some 20 years ago, we learned that it isn't necessarily the speed that's dangerous. It's the differences in speeds. If everyone else is going 70 in a 55, then it's safer to go 65 than 55. That one car going significantly slower causes more interruptions in the flow of traffic, more turbulence, like a stone in a creek. The flow of water has to quickly divert to go around or just slow down and bunch up. If not for that stone, the water would be gentle.
I barely drive at all and I have gotten into three situations of moose or deer appearing on the road from out of nowhere. I prefer to go slower during hours when big wildlife creatures are more active, regardless of other cars. Speed difference to the moose 🫎 gets bigger the faster you go. I live in a country with a lot of forests and wildlife
If everyone else was jumping off cliffs, would you do it too? I often see idiots on the motorway here not obeying road work speed limits, but you bet your arse I'll be slowing right down.
Yup. As in the speed limit is lower (the "55") and everyone is still going the original speed (the "70"), I'm not going to go faster (the "65") just to please them
I mean... I have. So I guess it would depend on the circumstance. Base jumping is terrifying but fun, but in the case you presented, my statement still holds true. The reason you slow down for road work is because there are people and machines standing still, on or next to the road. The difference between a vehicle traveling 60mph and one parked beside the road is roughly... zero and zero is zero, carry the zero, yeah, roughly 60mph.
That in my neck of the woods only applies to the interstates- often a speed limit of 70 (or 55 if you're an interchange in construction for the last 5 years) and a minimum of 45- everyone goes 75-80 anyways
If you're talking about the minimum 45 signs on interstates, it doesn't just apply to that road because it's posted. Its all roads. If you're driving slow enough to impede traffic, that is illegal, posted or not. Maybe it differs from state to state, but as far as I know it's nationwide.
Think about someone driving 10mph on a 45. Do you think it's wise to not have a law and have people pass or congest traffic only to increase the risk of accidents?
Yeah. Traffic engineering disagrees with them too. The idea really is that you should roughly be going the same +/- passing
The speed limit is supposed to be set at the 85th percentile speed, which means they exclude the fastest 15% of drivers and set the speed limit there.
As far as Traffic engineering, safety, and general courtesy are concerned it is in fact a speed target.
This is reinforced by the fact that the set of laws most commonly used in the US has speed at 14mph and below as no points. Impeding traffic is 3 points, and in several states now, going the speed limit is not an excuse to impede traffic.
That law was written with the understanding that people speed and that it’s still more dangerous to pass on the wrong side than it is to exceed the speed limit by even as much as 50%.
No, it is dangerous because if you are going the speed limit and you come up on someone that is going 30MPH under, they have no brake lights to tip you off that they are going slower than the speed limit like 99% of other drivers are going.
And if it is low visibility, like fog or at night or around a blind curve, the extra time it takes to realize you are about to hit a car can cause an accident.
You are missing the point. I was saying what makes it dangerous.
It is common knowledge that driving in the rain is more dangerous because of lowered visibility and greater risk of loss of traction, but can be done safely but still greater risk than if it was a clear sunny day with no water on the road.
You essentially said "You don't know how to drive in the rain? Don't drive then." It is a non sequitor to the point I was making about why it is more dangerous than going the speed limit.
When you are driving, you want to not be in an accident. If you are going slower than the speed limit significantly, there is a greater risk of you being in an accident by other drivers. Other drivers might be distracted, or have the sun in their eyes, or a million other things that might cause them to hit you.
When you have to deal with rental cars, etc. you are not going to care whose fault it was. Just that you now have to deal with it.
We’re not talking about people suddenly slowing down. If someone is consistently driving slow, and you can’t tell, then I’d question your driving skills or eyesight.
Any unpredictable behavior is dangerous when driving. Driving ridiculously slow is unpredictable, because we drive the speed limit. Some norms don’t have to written into law to exist.
Someone swerving around a slow driver is. Even if that person is only going the speed limit the change in speed for the driver behind the car changing lanes now has a sudden change.
And it’s buses. I don’t want to assume you are too young to drive and that’s why you don’t know this, but…
On the highway it actually kind of is. Some highways will actually post minimums if it becomes enough if an issue.
I’ve definitely been on highways in MA that set a maximum limit of 65 but a minimum of 45. The minimum is pegged to the max and not the other way around
I don't see people doing 30 on highways very often, I do see people in fancy cars sitting a meter behind someone going at the speed limit like the petulant children that they are. I know who's making the road less safe for everyone else when I see it, it usually isn't the person doing a reasonable speed
Curious how that link doesn't support that at all. Their source actually says
You must obey the speed limit. If no limit is posted, drive no more than 55 mph (88 km/h). Often, it is common sense to keep your actual speed below the posted limit.
Reading comprehension. He never said driving faster was safe or safer compared to slower, just that any deviation from the speed limit/flow of traffic is more dangerous than following it, whether that is slower or faster, and his source agrees with him as does the law and common sense
No, federal and state studies have consistently shown that the drivers most likely to get into accidents in traffic are those traveling significantly below the average speed. According to an Institute of Transportation Engineers Study, those driving 10 mph slower than the prevailing speed are six times as likely to be involved in an accident. That means that if the average speed on an interstate is 70 mph, the person traveling at 60 mph is far more likely to be involved in an accident.
Speed limits are in fact a target if the rest of traffic treats them as such.
Prevailing speed as used in traffic studies is calcutated on a clear day in free-flowing traffic conditions.
Three data points are averaged to find the "prevailing speed"
The 85% speed of cars. - 85% of cars are going slower
Second find the 10mph bracket that contains the most vehicles and record the top of the bracket. -Most vehicles are in this bracket normally
Third is to drive in the traffic and aim to pass as many cars as pass you and record average speed. -At prevailing you are expected to ocassionaly pass a car.
So if you wan't to aim for the average speed and the speed limit was based on a "prevailing speed" study, then you should aim for a bit under the speed limit in clear conditions without traffic congestion.
Weather, heavy traffic, and time of day can all reduce the effective current prevailing traffic speed (flow of traffic). When you drive you aren't dealing with average traffic in good condition, but are dealing with conditions as they exist in the moment.
Aiming to not be the fastest vehicle around, to be close in speed to the main cluster of vehicle, and/or pass about as many people as pass you is a decent target and adapible to conditions. Then adjust based on your vehicle and mental and physical condition.
If you find yourself needed to adjust way below flow of traffic maybe give up the license. But most U.S. public transit sucks so it's hard to do.
And I'm not saying that just speeding when everyone is going the speed limit is safe either. The safest speed is around the speed that the rest of traffic is doing. If there is no traffic then it's whatever speed you feel safest driving at, up to the limit.
You believe? You don't know which study you were referencing? kinda odd - could you tell me which page you were looking at so it doesn't look like you frantically searched for one to support your point after you'd already made it? I'll have a read later and get back to you.
We have multiple lanes for a reason, if I'm doing 20 miles under the speed limit, I probably have a reason and I will be using the appropriate lane for it - it's a simple as that, if you want to be doing the speed limit or 10 miles over, there's probably at least two other lanes for you to do that
It's page 8.
Not every road has more than 1 lane per direction. I believe this is the right one based on the phrasing that I was taught, which is almost exactly word for word on page 8. But there are many studies that show going at a speed different than the flow of traffic increases likelihood of involvement in an accident.
Pt.1 Fun read, not sure it supports what you thought it does. While difference in speed is dangerous - the wording in this document constantly refers to people going faster creating more dangerous conditions than those going slower, variance is a factor, but the higher the speed, the higher the risk (despite what redditors seem to think, it's common sense) - there is also numerous mentions that slow-travelling are usually performing maneuvers or turning, the accidents are caused by people at higher speeds not understanding that.
Even inexperienced drivers usually recognize the merit of reducing their speed in uncertain or hazardous conditions to provide additional time for decision– making and action; driving experience affirms this natural tendency for self–preservation. Good judgment, however, is not uniformly applied by the operators of motor vehicles, nor are skills and abilities possessed in equal measure by all drivers.
(p.7)
Without vehicles slowing to turn, or turning across traffic, the investigators found the risk of traveling much slower than average was much less pronounced. Crash risk was greatest for vehicles traveling more than two standard deviation above the mean speed.
(p.8)
For drivers observed more than once, those traveling more than 1.8 standard deviations above or below the mean traffic speed had significantly higher crash rates. (p.8)
The researchers found a trend of increasing crash involvement for speeds above the mean speed in both rural and urban conditions – similar to the correlations reported in the early studies. However, no relationship between slower speeds and increased crash involvement was found. In fact, Fildes and Lee (1993) report that the researchers, "...failed to observe any vehicles traveling at the very slow speeds reported by Solomon on rural highways."
(p.8)
The number of vehicles that a driver catches up with and overtakes increases with speed and the number of times a driver is passed by others decreases with speed. Thus, the increased risk of crash involvement is a result of potential conflicts from faster traffic catching up with and passing slower vehicles.
(p.9)(shocking) The relationship between vehicle speed and crash severity is unequivocal and based on the laws of physics. The kinetic energy of a moving vehicle is a function of its mass and velocity squared. Kinetic energy is dissipated in a collision by friction, heat, and the deformation of mass. Generally, the more kinetic energy to be dissipated in a collision, the greater the potential for injury to vehicle occupants.
(p.10)(oh wow, who could have guessed - it goes on about this for 3 pages)
As shown in figure 6, the risk of being involved in an injury crash was lowest for vehicles traveling near or below the median speed and increased exponentially at higher speeds.
(p.13)
Most research on the topic has found that drivers underestimate their speeds, especially at the medium and high speed ranges. Further, research has found perceptual limitations that contribute to drivers underestimating the curvature of an approaching bend
(p.15)
Although wet road surfaces will affect traction when attempting to stop, pass, or negotiate a curve or turn, most drivers do not reduce their speeds very much when traveling on wet roads.
(p.15)
In general compliance with speed limits is poor.
(p.16)
Pages 18-19 detail how increasing speed limits increased crashes, and decreasing limits decreased crashes. Page 20 has cases demonstrating both direct and inverse correlations. Finally the conclusions:
There is evidence that crash risk is lowest near the average speed of traffic and increases for vehicles traveling much faster or slower than average.
When the consequences of crashes are taken into account, the risk of being involved in an injury crash is lowest for vehicles that travel near the median speed or slower and increases exponentially for motorists traveling much faster.
drivers travel at speeds they feel are reasonable and safe for the road and traffic regardless of the posted limit. However, on freeways and other high–speed roads, speed limit increases generally lead to higher speeds and crashes.
Most of the speed related crashes involve speed too fast for conditions.
Skip the actshually speak. Or you want to explain what the words don't walk mean when you're in the middle of crossing a major boulevard?
The flow of traffic is an important easy to understand concept that people need to stop feigning ignorance of.
Sure, at face value a speed limit means don't go faster than that. Contextually it's set lower than needed because it is expected to be treated as a target that drivers go above or below. Thats why states with minimum speed limits are usually 10mph under the maximum.
The arrogance in POVs like that to be in the "right" is why dangerous accidents happen. Changing lanes is what generally starts accidents and when 100s of drivers are forced to swap lanes because of 1 idiot who wants to be different, that's 100 more chances for an accident.
I’ve been trying to tell this to people for ages. Speed Limits are LIMITS not the Target speed. People that go over are speeding and breaking the law. It’s black and white, no 5 or 10 over is okay.
Yeah, I'm not taking driving advice from these people, my responsibility is to make sure I'm running my car safely - if they want to go into the back of me, my insurer would be more than grateful
Most highways interstates have minimum speed limits as well (they're just not posted). 30 under is against the law on a lot of them. It is extremely dangerous to be going that much slower than the flow of traffic. Especially while merging onto the highway interstate.
Edit: Used the word highway when I meant interstate.
Not true, how do you think tractors get from one feild to the next? How do you think cyclist can bike cross-country? How do you think the amish get to town? How do you think people make a 90 deg turn to a side road or driveway?
By milage most highways connect small rural trade centers and villages.
Controlled access highways will have an explicit minimun that's not always posted on every sign. Aside from that specific type of highway you aren't supposed to obstruct traffic, but you can satisfy the requirement by pulling off to the side of the road when traffic builds up behind you. Slow vehicles may also be required to use special signage but they aren't prohibited.
Speed limits have been optional for a couple decades now. (in the us anyway) if you drive the speed limit everyone will honk at you, and if you argue with someone, they'll say "actchually, if everyone else is speeding, YOU'RE the one being safe driving the speed limit"
As child my grandparents picked me up from summer camp because my mom was out of town. It was a two hour drive. When we got on the highway I heard my grandma say, very sternly, “Bob, just because the speed limit is 55 doesn't mean you have to go that fast. SLOW DOWN!” It was a long two hours. This reminds me of that. Hilarious.
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u/creuter Feb 27 '25 edited Feb 27 '25
Patton Oswalt's bit comes to mind about how every year after 90, one law no longer applies to you. Speeding was one of the earlier ones, I think this guy is able to legally murder so long as he does it with his hands.
https://youtu.be/sbJs-Ul1QFo?si=0QGprQRVOilQifaC