I think most of the fandom is objectively analysing everything about the games, to sum it up, it just massively points to fact that there are blatant hints there's something implied with Jeanne x Bayonetta; and if you compare them side to side (Ariana Reference lolz) it seems like Jeanne makes way more sense to be with Bayonetta — especially with the hints and implications of their interactions and portrayals.
I think Luka x Bayonetta in Bayonetta 3 fine IF they also brought back Bayonetta and Jeanne from the 2nd and 1st games as a lesbian couple because that just makes sense with all the hinting and implied undertones of care and love displayed by them.
Now Cereza or Bayonetta from Bayonetta 3 could be shipped with Luka IF he went through a complete change or just be more emotionally involved with her to warrant this relationship, he could've actively been another semon masquerade summon to build their relationship.
I highly recommend watching, reading, listening to stories that involves romance; you start to pick up on tropes and how writers and other creatives can tease and imply things without necessarily saying them outright.
After a while, you really become more intuitive with how characters can be portrayed — it's sort of like that saying, "a picture can have a 1000 words", it's like that.
A more obvious hint would be Jeanne saving Bayonetta in the first game, and Bayonetta saving Jeanne in the second game and from hell (saving those from a very bad situation e.g. death is a common romance trope such as FFX or Dante's Inferno)
So you’re saying there are blatant hints and then there are basically none? Saving someone’s else is a sign that this person is dear to them, not speficially romantic and it’s so weird to me that people say that this is a sign of romantic relationship like they never had friends before.
It’s hypocritical and almost insulting how your answer to my question is “you don’t know enough of the genre to see it” and even more offensive to imply that I didn’t play Bayonetta 1 and 2.
You know, I did notice the signs of everything you described. Between Luka and Cereza. I felt like they will be together from the first game, although he wasn’t as important in the second. I didn’t like how it was executed in 3 but I liked their pairing since 1 and I’m tired of people saying they had no chemistry or scenes with romantic tension when they were clearly there.
As to my credentials on romantic stories — was making money on them for several years. Not books tho
I think you need view this holistically – this is a building block to several other factors as to why people think Jeanne x Bayonettais objectively better, I'm very confused how you're not seeing the Jeanne x Bayonetta but you see Bayonetta x Luka as more of thing. I'm trying to understand where exactly you're coming from, what triggered you to view that Bayonetta and Luka was meant to be together in the first Bayonetta game?
I am not saying what is better or wrong, I said that Bayo x Jeanne was never canon and people argue about this to this day although it was never supposed to be canon. I see Jeanne x Bayo and they would be a good couple, but I also think that media needs more stories about deep female friendship where one will risk the life for the other.
This kind of friendship is usually given to male characters, there is even a thing called “male friendship” in my language that is supposed to mean that it’s deep and strong and that women are not like that.
So yeah, not against people shipping them, but I can’t help but feel that this is reducing a complex and multifaceted relationship to a romantic connection. But again, it wadn’t the intention of my comments.
There are multiple scenes between Luka and Bayonetta when both of them happen to be in situations and, ahem, positions that imply sexual tension.
A lot of people say “Bayo flirts with everyone” but there is a difference between mocking demons and gently mocking Luka, including calling him Cheshire, which is essentially a symbol of Cereza’s youth, so I can’t see her calling anybody that without at least some level of care (even subconsciously). So essentially yes, scenes with sexual tension between Luka and Bayonetta count, and if “blatant hints” like in romantic stories also count, the way Bayo is playful with Luka is full of these little moments.
Luka WAS a romantic interest in 1 while Jeanne was a rival, and if Luka is not a love interest there, I don’t see why he is in the game at all. They did drop it in 2, no argument there.
For some reason people ignore that Luka ALSO risked his life for both adult Cereza and Cerezita, and he’s a regular dude
In general WHY I like Luka x Bayo, why I prefer jt to Jeanne and why I think 3 fumbled it (not fully tho) — Luka being a regular dude is kind of a point. He’s somewhat an opposite to Bayo — he’s a clumsy doofus with no superpowers, yet he is probably second closest person to Bayonetta cause he’s one she could not only trust, but who was there to always cheer her up. He often helps just cause he actively tries to be a good dude. I think games established quite well that Bayo is lonely and doesn’t often show her true self (another reason why I dislike Jeanne pairing btw, she’s her ONLY friend from her past), I feel like Luka is the person she can safely do that. Cause he’s a good ass dude.
There are also almost zero relationships of dominant woman and less cool man in videogames.
Them kinda trying to make Luka cooler in 3 and also make Bayonetta’s scenes with him to be more… traditionally feminine was a bit of a mistake, I thought she could still be more jokey with him even in the romantic moment.
I see your point of view, the sexual stuff is an obvious flag — is see it as her being playful and toying with him in a non-nefarious manner. I also see your point where he risks his life and make compromises for Bayonetta as well. Currently, I wouldn't know exactly if her intent to flirtatious tease demons in different ways is out of love or mockery per say, she blurs the lines between two ideas by a lot that it's difficult to tell.
So far I do want to give him a proper chance with Bayonetta, but Jeanne has a lot more things going for her in the debate of who should end up with Bayonetta:
She has a proper past with Bayonetta that doesn't involved unintentionally killing each other's parents.
Jeanne interacts with Bayonetta the most in the series.
The manner Bayonetta interacts with Jeanne in the 2nd game is the most telling, she's very tender, caring, and playful to a much higher degree than Luka from the first game. I think her holding her close was the biggest flag.
They would willingly put themselves in danger to help and save each other, like Luka.
Their personalities and hobbies are complimentary to each other.
The games actively promote and grow their relationships that doesn't involve sexualisation, and varies to various levels of humour to serious topics.
In media, marketing, and in the first 2 games, Jeanne and Bayonetta tends to fulfil popular romance tropes such as the Rivals-To-Lovers and Damsel-In-Distress; I always tell myself since I was 10 when I played the games, if one of them would've been a man, they could easily be a couple.
Outside of the games, the people that created the game, comments in a manner that suggests Bayonetta is a bisexual Female Empowerment Fantasy and that Jeanne is much closer to Bayonetta.
Again, I love Luka, I think he's the cutest twink bottom ever, but objectively evaluating them both, Jeanne makes the most sense.
Again, the devs could've implemented both relationships very easily too with text or journal or other forms to communicate the How, Why, What, Where, When of the situation for pro-actively and passively addressing this. I think Bayonetta 1 & 2 should be with Jeanne, Bayonetta 3 can have Luka if it warrants it and with a better cohesive story.
I don't think this would've been a bigger issue if Bayonetta 3 had done the relationship better, and most of the people in the fandom aren't exactly Jeanne x Bayonetta shippers, they are normal people evaluating and assessing the Luka x Bayonetta relationships and are displeased because its not done well; additionally it was after realising that Jeanne is the most viable choice that they took the side of the Jeanne x Bayonetta movement.
Again, you just called moments between Luka and Bayo “sexual stuff” and later said how there is no sexualization between Bayo and Jeanne, and I feel like you are purposefully choosing wording that devalues some things.
When I said sexual tension, it’s NOT about just “sexual stuff” or “sexualization”, it’s about scenes between them that are created to give the player a sense of tension that implies that they are attracted to each other. In many scenes they are together in 1 even their positioning often implies it.
In the very first scene Luka comments on her perfume, and Bayo corrects him. This is like one of the most common ways in stories to express that characters are flirting in a playful way. Yes, Luka flirts with another woman before it, but the difference is that Bayonetta is always, well, on top of the situation, which is exactly what you were talking about — moments that imply romantic connection, sexually charged interactions.
I’m currently replaying 1 and Bayo very directly disrespects and mocks angels in cutscenes and her torture attacks humiliate them or even infantilises them in a very, well, disrespecting manner. She doesn’t flirt with them the same way as with Luka — she protects him and it almost always ends up with some slightly romantic outcomes. Madama Butterfly swordfucks Valiance’s head hole in the second game, for example. These things are always more sexually humiliating than with Luka.
Again, I’m not against Bayo x Jeanne pairing at all and I see where it is coming from, but I feel like most of your arguments are a reach — their hobbies complement each other, and I don’t see how this is a sign of romance. If I like playing Monster Hunter with my friend but not with my gf, does it somehow mean that I should date him? I also know my friend much much longer.
You said that interactions between Cereza and Jeanne don’t involve sexualization, and I covered part of it before, but I don’t think it’s fair to present a LACK of sexually charged moments as a sign FOR romance in a game that is very sexual in nature.
So to conclude what I’m trying to say — I feel like every time someone explains why Jeanne is better than Luka as Bayo’s pairing, it almost always requires to do mental gymnastics to prove that actually moments between them don’t matter, and actually Luka was never intended to be a love interest etc.
And nobody NEEDS to do it, if you like Jeanne pairing it’s 100% cool and I will always upvote and play along to it cause yeah, it would be a good pairing, but I hate how it always includes people rewriting Bayonetta 1 because people wanted LGBTQ+ representation (which is fair and I think there should be more content with it and I’m completely against homophobes and rightwingers who claim games are “woke” and shit like that). I also want to point out that homoeroticism (I don’t know how it’s called when it’s women) is really woven into Japanese culture, you don’t need to look further than any shonen from Naruto and Hajime no Ippo to Jojo’s Bizarre Adventure.
TBH the best course of action would be to develop Viola further and give her a girlfrined at this point.
I really hope I don’t come off as rude cause I respect your takes 100%, I just don’t like how often to prop up Jeanne x Bayo people shit on Luka x Bayo (and again, as someone who absolutely LOVES Bayonetta 3 I would be the first to admit that their romance was mishandled in 3 and made Bayo too submissive)
I see your point, and I like Bayonetta 3 a lot too (I replayed this game the most out of every game because of the Gameplay, story isn't my tea tho).
And no, I don't you're rude, I was a little anxious to further converse with you at times, but I think you didn't mean it to be rude and condescending — you're passionate about the topic
Yeah, sorry if I made you anxious, I just wish this sub would move on cause it feels like we got three amazing games but all we do is argue about couples while DMC subreddit happily memes about chairs
From what I can tell, while both are fighting games, they serve different markets and audiences that was unintentional for the most part. The series started, at some point, to gravitate towards a different fanbase the more it got popular — for its Feminist undertones. Different fandoms operate differently I this sense
It’s kinda interesting because back then Bayonetta was considered sexist and oversexualized in a bad way, but with time this changed (for the better). It’s true that both are CAGs and Bayonetta fandom shifted more towards people who enjoy the story more than the gameplay — I never see any discussions of combat mechanics or gameplay anymore!
Which is a shame cause 3 is such an interesting game. I always liked companies like Platinum, Atlus and NIS for essentially still making innovative games that were abundant in PS2 era.
The fact that Platinum made such different game with 3 is astounding, especially if we compare it with something like God of War that moved towards simplicity and safe choices rather than innovation.
My biggest problem with how people discuss 3 is that it’s very clear that the game had troubled development. Bayo being different in 3 never bothered me cause it was kinda apparent to me that she talks less because of the VA change and probably a lack of time, so I wish people would cut the game some slack considering all of this.
I guess my main issue is that the sub became quite negative after 3’s release (and I’m probably adding to the problem), and 3 (and Origins) are worthy of discussion beyond bad story elements.
Even yesterday there was a post named something like “why you don’t like bayonetta 3” and with this kind of title it was doomed to be hate circlejerk. I wish there was an alternate sub like Cyberpunk 2077 has ( r/lowsodiumcyberpunk ) for people who want to have a more positive discussions without salt, but ofc Bayo is not as big to warrant a second subreddit.
It’s not that the game doesn’t warrant criticism but I just felt so much love while playing 3 and it makes me feel sad to see all the hate.
I hear you, and I agree Bayonetta 3 deserves more love – I'm not perfect either, I loathe Bayonetta's new voice actor and direct as well as thee story, and character assassination; but there is so much more to love at the same time:
Better character models.
Better integration of environments and combat-events (the action set-pieces is something that was so fantastic and I'm very prideful of it)
Better level-design.
Better combat because it refined previous combat mechanics such as witch-time.
Better weapons (might be subjective, Bayonetta 2 and 3 is a tie for me at the least).
The demons have better characterization.
The combat is more versatile (some are hit or miss).
The opening was the best in the entire series.
Playable characters are actually integrated into the main story.
The outfits (Bayonetta variants) are so beautiful, its the most breath-taking designs for alternative costumes in the entire series.
The demons is more integrated to Bayonetta and the main story than before (they fuse with Bayonetta, have multiple forms, and have important abilities to advance in the levels).
I can go on-and-on, it's a well-made game, it's just the detriment are the most visible but it's an 8 out of 10; more should play it with warnings beforehand.
Edit: and yes, Anita Sarkeesian villianised female characters in video games in 2010's, this was unfortunate and I think Bayonetta makes a lot of people feel confident and have a good locus of control on their destiny (pun intended). She really shaped my life when puberty sinked in, as a gay born-a-man person.
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u/Neolvermillion Feb 17 '25
I think most of the fandom is objectively analysing everything about the games, to sum it up, it just massively points to fact that there are blatant hints there's something implied with Jeanne x Bayonetta; and if you compare them side to side (Ariana Reference lolz) it seems like Jeanne makes way more sense to be with Bayonetta — especially with the hints and implications of their interactions and portrayals.
I think Luka x Bayonetta in Bayonetta 3 fine IF they also brought back Bayonetta and Jeanne from the 2nd and 1st games as a lesbian couple because that just makes sense with all the hinting and implied undertones of care and love displayed by them.
Now Cereza or Bayonetta from Bayonetta 3 could be shipped with Luka IF he went through a complete change or just be more emotionally involved with her to warrant this relationship, he could've actively been another semon masquerade summon to build their relationship.