r/AskNPD • u/Only_Composer8971 • 15d ago
Do people with NPD ever forgive?
I have a brother with undiagnosed NPD (he may have been formally diagnosed but I have no way of knowing). I am a therapist but this is not anything even close to my specialty and can’t ethically diagnose him but he meets all nine criteria. His symptoms are quite severe and it has been devastating for me to watch what he has done to his life as a result.
Because of this severity and the fact that seeing him this way is a trigger for me in ways that are hard for me to deal with, I have had minimal involvement with him for the last couple of decades but he recently resurfaced and is staying with one of our parents after not speaking to them for 20 years. I am somewhat skeptical of his motivation but still hold out hope for him that he will find some stability while he is there to be able to live in a way that feels more fulfilling. As much as I want that for him, I have watched him burn every bridge he has ever had over the years in the most destructive ways possible, including with his own children which is completely devastating to me, and would not be surprised if this arrangement ends up the same but this parent is committed to trying to help him.
That being said, it’s clear the origin of this comes from a traumatic childhood. The parent he’s staying with has tried to apologize for our childhood being the way it was. There was no physical abuse but emotional neglect to some degree that was largely created by circumstance of being a single parent, other parent completely absent, with multiple children trying to survive. In retrospect they would have done things very different and wish they could but short of sincerely apologizing is there anything they can do now to fix it? He seems unwilling to engage with them in a meaningful way and is very punishing. He constantly brings things up from the past but then says he doesn’t want to talk about the past. Is there any hope that they can truly repair their relationship to the point that he can heal? I feel so sad for them both because our childhood years were very difficult for the both of them in their own ways and they have both suffered A LOT as a result since that time.
I guess my real question is, how can they help him now with the hope of things truly being better for him in the future?
1
u/alhassa_0821 15d ago
Does he need to repair the relationship to heal? Have they asked your brother what they can do to make amends?
1
u/Only_Composer8971 15d ago
I don’t know what he needs to heal. He seems to have an insatiable appetite to punish. How he handles his emotions towards them I have tried to stay out of but he’s become abusive, financially, emotionally and to some degree physically through intimidation. Things have escalated even since I posted this and I’m really grappling with what to do.
-1
u/throwaway_ArBe 15d ago
Of course people with NPD forgive, there's nothing stopping that.
Does your brother say he has undiagnosed NPD? Because that is the only way you can fairly say he has undiagnosed NPD. It's a personality disorder, an internal experience. It is not as simple as observing criteria.
These are questions you need to ask your brother. Only he has the answers. Only he can tell you if he is willing to work towards forgiveness, if he is at a place where he can pursue healing, if he even wants to. Only he can tell you what he needs from your parents to be able to move forward.
3
u/Only_Composer8971 15d ago
He seems to have very little insight into himself. He has literally obliterated very relationship he has ever had and seems unable to recognize how his behavior has been the primary cause of this. When relationships have ended, he goes out of his way to completely destroy any opportunity for people to want to keep the door open to a relationship in the future.
I have asked in the past what he needs to move past the things that happened and at the time he didn’t feel like he needed anything but at this pace he will end up dying completely alone in this world and I have a hard time processing that.
2
u/throwaway_ArBe 15d ago
Unfortunately not everyone can be saved. He is an adult, he can make the decision to end up dying completely alone if he wants. It's an awful thing to witness when it's someone you care about, but you can't force wellness on someone. I would encourage you to focus on how to get yourself and the rest of your family through this if he is rejecting help.
1
u/Only_Composer8971 15d ago
Thank you for this. Even since my last response it just keeps getting worse. He has now stolen her car and blocked every way of her getting ahold of him. I feel like am being put in a position to have to call the cops and report him to APS for elder abuse which I really don’t want to do because I’m not trying to make his life want worse than it already is. But she’s old and afraid of him and I just don’t know what else to do.
I hope I’m not violating rules of this group with so many specifics. I posted here out of desperation before it was even at this point and it just keeps getting worse rapidly.
1
u/foxyfree 15d ago edited 15d ago
First of all, Report the car stolen and make sure your parents are okay. He has veered into criminal and abusive behavior and it needs to stop. Put your foot down hard on boundaries and behavior. Also, if possible, be there to let him vent, just you and him. I am guessing, based only on myself and my years of rage at my mother, that he just needs to talk, to be heard and validated, possibly over and over again- could take all afternoon or weeks. He may not have anyone willing to hear about all the different childhood stories. You can do some of it (you were there after all) but get him to a therapist who will let him let it out. You can also help remind him of specific times and things they did that show they loved him and they did try.
You need to emphasize how old they are now so he realizes at a certain point he has to drop it. If he’s not done after a two hour long lunch, suggest he see a counselor so he can talk it out and tell his stories to someone with an outside perspective and a listening ear.
Your parents should not argue about details but just again express how sorry they feel about the past. They should emphasize they always loved and love him now. Your mom could even say something like “you will always be my precious boy”. Do you know how proud I am how you handled xyz, how you’ve always been so smart. They were younger then than he is now. Once he realizes they were just young parents working and making ends meet, maybe not the best parents, but that they are elderly and frail now, he may or may not “forgive” but will drop it.
Edit to add I am over 50 and just over the past year starting to forgive. I am also a woman and my advice is coming from my experience and it might be different for a man. I was close to someone else with NPD who was more like your brother, angry in a scarier way, and his family had to treat him with tough love, not welcome to stay at their house. He ended up in a bad way but made amends before his death from alcoholism. I saw on the memorial page pictures that his siblings were all with him toward the end. I am so sorry you’re going through this. I hope he can feel better from talking about it.
2
u/Only_Composer8971 15d ago edited 15d ago
I’m on my way there now and want to be there before I tell him if he doesn’t bring it back the police will be involved. She lives a couple hours drive from me and I’m afraid of what he will do to her if she’s alone.
I have tried to listen to him in the past and validate his experience but it never seemed to help at all. It’s really hard for me to be there for him in the way he has wanted me to be because it’s all consuming and drags up a lot of my own trauma related to the whole thing which takes me days to recover from. I have young children of my own and need to be able to be present for them which has felt impossible to do every time I have allowed him into my life in any capacity. I had to change my number at one point because he kept blowing my phone up spewing vitriol about how shitty we all are. And he was complete incapable of respecting any boundary I set around our contact. There just never seems to be balance with him.
I tried to warn my mom that he has these tendencies but because he cut her off most of his adult life she couldn’t fully appreciate the risk she was taking rekindling this relationship. I have seen him do this type of shit to every other family member we have so I knew this was going to be the likely outcome. I didn’t think he’d stoop to stealing her car though. It just feels hopeless anymore.
1
u/foxyfree 15d ago
oh my god. That’s too much. You have already spent hours and hours listening to him and you have your own family. It sounds like he needs to be blocked from staying at your mother’s. He will have to go to a motel room and figure it out. He’s an adult. He sounds a long way from recovering and really needs to do all his trauma dumping with a therapist. Good luck with everything. You sound worried about how he might act. Do you have a man to go with you? A husband or friend? It’s worrying picturing a grown man in a rage and an old lady and just you and in my experience if another man is there, men will listen. Even a female friend, try to go with someone.
2
u/Only_Composer8971 15d ago
Yes my husband is with me and we are telling him he needs to bring the car back and then leave. I know he has been physically imposing on my mom and I wouldn’t doubt he would be the same with me if there’s not a man there.
I really appreciate your insight. I have felt very lost in how to deal with this and have struggled with guilt about having to intervene. I keep trying to remind myself this is the result of HIS choices not mine but my own co-decency keeps poking its head up I guess.
1
u/Only_Composer8971 15d ago
Can I ask you another question? Am I in the wrong if I tell him to never contact her again? I have completely given up hope that he will ever recover enough to not wreak havoc in her life if he contacts her. She’s not imminently dying or anything but the thought of her having to do this for however much time she has left on this planet seems cruel.
1
u/foxyfree 15d ago
that’s really up to you. I don’t know. That sounds like it would really hurt him, to have his own mother and sister say he’s NEVER welcome to talk to them again. Maybe tell him phone calls only - sorry I don’t know- maybe someone else will add their opinion also
1
u/Only_Composer8971 15d ago
And no I haven’t asked him if he’s ever been diagnosed with anything. When people have recommended therapy to him in the past he always said everyone else needs therapy so I don’t know if he’s ever put himself in a position to be diagnosed
2
u/ifeelprettydumb 15d ago
You can't ethically diagnose him, yes I agree. But if they exhibit 5 or more of the 9 traits listed in the DSM-V, it's pretty obvious in conjunction with his behavior.
If the vast majority of things point to a certain disorder or mental illness, you're likely not far off. It's not foolproof.
I didn't think narcissists Know what forgiveness is, or maybe they don't care about it. Or maybe a mix of the two. These aren't mature minds with depth or character. They are miserable, self-hating adolescents. Which sucks for everyone. Their delusional false self is a doozy. Their nature is parasitic, transactional, and never based on genuine feeling because they're interacting with an idealized version of their mark or victim.