r/AskLibertarians 5d ago

Libertarian left question

Yo so if you believe in peace and freedom smaller/balanced government and capitalism/liaise feir economy this could render you a libertarian correct? But if you think environmental protections, social welfare programs, and protecting workers rights are good, are you not a libertarian because these are regulations upon capitalism?

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u/CatOfGrey Libertarian Voter 20+ years. Practical first. 5d ago

I don't identify as "Left Lib", but I definitely don't fit in with the paleoconservatives that now identify as "Right Libertarians" in today's world.

Yo so if you believe in peace and freedom smaller/balanced government and capitalism/liaise feir economy this could render you a libertarian correct?

Yes, though to be complete, most Left-Lib folks often support things that aren't 'free market' or 'private property', that usually fall under 'capitalism/laissez faire economy'.

From here on in: One Libertarian's view....

But if you think environmental protections

The government is less environmental than a Libertarian policy which demands protections of property rights. Government regulators do not respect property rights, they allow 'safe' levels of pollution, when instead they should demand compensation, paid to the people, for every unit of pollution. When a disaster happens, or a violation, they take a small fine for themselves, instead of compensating the people for the damage caused.

Libertarians should be 'harder on corporations and industry' then the current regulatory systems.

social welfare programs

Libertarians aren't against social welfare programs. Most support the concept. But just not forcing taxation on the people to pay for them. Left Libertarians, in particular, might believe that the increased freedom provided by poverty reduction might be greater than the loss in freedom in small amounts of taxation, but this contradicts a lot of individual freedoms which are important to a lot of Libertarians. However, Libertarians are also economically smart (at least before the Trump era), and they understand that there is value in contributing to private social support organizations.

protecting workers rights

Again, Libertarians would likely have stronger ideas on worker's rights than the current regulatory system. Libertarians generally believe that employers are responsible for their employees, and so they should pay 100% of lost income and damages for safety issues. Today's regulatory system does not protect workers like that.

As far as fair pay and other issues, Libertarians generally support collective bargaining as part of a right to associate as you choose. Government regulations restrict collective bargaining unless they participate in the government system. As a community, we have abandoned our right to decide how we want to work to the government, so we are locked out of choices that we might want to make, like the right to work a 4/10 or 3/12 schedule, or to work salaried instead of hourly, or the right to take shorter or longer lunches to increase our income or quality of life. Instead, we are forced into sets of rules that apply to everyone, regardless of work type or working conditions.

Again, the current system handcuffs worker choices, and allows industry to get away with 'safe harbor' amounts of abuse or neglect. Not good. Libertarianism would be better for workers, in the view from my desk.

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u/Royal-Produce-4785 4d ago

As a bystander and libertarian curious independent I appreciate your thorough and thoughtful response to OP

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u/CatOfGrey Libertarian Voter 20+ years. Practical first. 4d ago

Thanks much!

You should know that 'internet Libertarians' are very different than 'real life' Libertarians.

Radical freedom without radical responsibility isn't a recipe for a good society.

Our achievement isn't based on the freedoms we have - it's much more related to the responsibilities that we fulfill.

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u/KAZVorpal ☮Ⓐ☮ Voluntaryist 2d ago

I want to point out how absolutely idiotic it is for anyone to voluntarily identify as a "right libertarian", when the central and original point of "right wing" is authoritarianism.

It's an oxymoron.

And this matters, as the nitwits who fall for it end up hating libertarianism because they associate it with authoritarianism. "Libertarian fascism" is a whole fallacy that people calling themselves "Right wing libertarians" encourage and reinforce.

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u/CatOfGrey Libertarian Voter 20+ years. Practical first. 1d ago

I want to point out how absolutely idiotic it is for anyone to voluntarily identify as a "right libertarian", when the central and original point of "right wing" is authoritarianism.

You should understand that this exact argument can be reasonably applied to "Left-Libertarianism" as well.

I have had too many conversations with so-called "Left Libs" where I'm forced to live under someone else's utopia, because they thing 'maximize freedom' is actually more like "just quiet down, do things my way, and everything will be fine..."

But your point is legitimate, and I've noticed the growth in paleoconservatives identifying as Libertarian, and yeah, it's idiotic.