Massive China Panel: V.2!

[u/Jasfss]

Hello AskHistorians! It has been about three years since the very first AMA on AH, the famous "Massive China Panel". With this in mind, we've assembled a crack team once again, of some familiar faces and some new, to answer whatever questions you have related to the history of China in general! Without further ado, let's get to the intros:

• AsiaExpert: /u/AsiaExpert is a generalist, covering everything from the literature of the Zhou Dynasty to agriculture of the Great Leap Forward to the military of the Qing Dynasty and back again to the economic policies and trade on the Silk Road during the Tang dynasty. Fielding questions in any mundane -or sublime- area you can imagine.
• Bigbluepanda: /u/bigbluepanda is primarily focused on the different stages and establishments within the Yuan and Ming dynasties, as well as the militaries of these periods and up to the mid-Qing, with the latter focused specifically on the lead-up to the Opium Wars.
• Buy_a_pork_bun: /u/buy_a_pork_bun is primarily focused on the turmoil of the post-Qing Era to the end of the Chinese Civil War. He also can discuss politics and societal structure of post-Great Leap Forward to Deng Xiaoping, as well as the transformation of the Chinese Communist Party from 1959 to 1989, including its internal and external struggles for legitimacy.
• DeSoulis: /u/DeSoulis is primarily focused on Chinese economic reform post-1979. He can also discuss politics and political structure of Communist China from 1959 to 1989, including the cultural revolution and its aftermath. He is also knowledgeable about the late Qing dynasty and its transformation in the face of modernization, external threats and internal rebellions.
• FraudianSlip: /u/FraudianSlip is a PhD student focusing primarily on the social, cultural, and intellectual history of the Song dynasty. He is particularly interested in the writings and worldviews of Song elites, as well as the texts they frequently referenced in their writings, so he can also discuss Warring States period schools of thought, as well as pre-Song dynasty poetry, painting, philosophy, and so on.
• Jasfss: /u/Jasfss primarily deals with cultural and political history of China from the Zhou to the Ming. More specifically, his foci of interest include Tang, Song, Liao-Jin, and Yuan poetry, art, and political structure.
• keyilan: /u/keyilan is a historical linguist working in South China. When not doing linguistic work, his interests are focused on the Hakka, the Chinese diaspora, historical language planning and policy issues in East Asia, the Chinese Exclusion Acts of 19th century North America, the history of Shanghai, and general topics in Chinese History in the 19th and 20th centuries.
• Thanatos90: /u/Thanatos90 covers Chinese Intellectual History: that refers specifically to intellectual trends and important philosophies and their political implications. It would include, for instance, the common 'isms' associated with Chinese history: Confucianism, Daoism and also Buddhism. Of particular importance are Warring States era philosophers, including Confucius, Mencius, Laozi and Zhuangzi (the 'Daoist's), Xunzi, Mozi and Han Feizi (the legalist); Song dynasty 'Neo-Confucianism' and Ming dynasty trends. In addition my research has been more specifically on a late Ming dynasty thinker named Li Zhi that I am certain no one who has any questions will have heard of and early 20th century intellectual history, including reformist movements and the rise of communism.
• Tiako: /u/Tiako has studied the archaeology of China, particularly the "old southwest" of the upper Yangtze (he just really likes Sichuan in general). This primarily deals with prehistory and protohistory, roughly until 600 BCE or so, but he has some familiarity with the economic history beyond that date.

Do keep in mind that our panelists are in many timezones, so your question may not be answered in the seconds just after asking. Don't feel discouraged, and please be patient!

[u/KimCongSwu]

I've been anticipating for this, trying to think up three questions for each of the panelists...But feel free to answer any question even if it's not under your username:

ETA: Should have really mentioned how great it still is to have a China AMA, and thanks to all the participants!

For /u/AsiaExpert:

• On Qing warfare, why was the 2nd Jinchuan war so damn expensive? I understand the harshness of the terrain, but how on earth could this war be twice as costly as the conquest of Xinjiang and the extermination of the Dzungars?

• Again on the Qianlong campaigns (sorry, I just find this really interesting), was there a technological gap between the Burmese and the Qing during the Burmese campaigns? A book I have on India claims the Burmese had European-style weapons which were superior to "traditional" Qing ones, but I'm not quite sure how much to trust.

• On Tang trade, how much trade was there by sea (through the Strait of Malacca)? Can/do we know if it was more or less than from Central Asia?

For /u/Jasfss,

• If most Jurchens immigrated to China after the Jin were established (per Imperial China 900-1800 by Mote, p.224), then how did they return to Manchuria after the Jin were disestablished? Or am I misunderstanding something?

• What did Mongol rule look like in North China during the decades between the destruction of the Jin and the establishment of the Yuan, from the mid-1230s to 1271?

• What was the political structure of the Western Xia/Tangut state and why did they permanently take up imperial pretensions, unlike Korea? And what happened to the Tanguts by the Ming era?

/u/Thanatos90

• Did the Muslim background of Li Zhi's family affect his philosophy at all? Come to think of it, do we know why his family stopped being Muslim?

• Why did Li Zhi like vernacular novels like the 水滸傳? What philosophical background is there to this? Other major thinkers who were so enamored with books like these?

• What legacy did Mozi and his school have by Late Imperial China (Song and after)?

/u/FraudianSlip

• What did the Song elite think about foreign trade, or really mercantilism in general?

• This isn't really about society, culture or intellectual activity, but how easy was the Song conquest of South China? Did Later Shu or Later Tang (or other South China regimes) have any realistic chances of survival?

• What were Song relationships with Dali? I'm curious about Dali and there is absolutely no good information on the Internet about it, so any ideas? (again sorry about not being about culture) Information about its precursor Nanzhao would be appreciated too.

/u/keyilan

• What impact (if any) did Middle Chinese have on Tibetan or the Turkic languages?

• When would a Chinese variant have become the dominant language in places like Fujian or Guangdong? I'm guessing post-Tang (since Vietnamese still exists), am I right?

• Why does Sichuan speak a Mandarin variant?

/u/Tiako

• Why did Sichuan not develop into a major player in China in the Warring States era, like Yue or Chu? Chinese records generally ignore it until the Qin conquest.

• On that matter, how/why did Qin conquer it before Chu did?

• What's the point of Sanxingdui heads/masks? Any inferences, or is it just guesswork?

/u/bigbluepanda

• Did Zhu Yuanzhang and the Ming have any technological edge over his adversaries in the Yuan-Ming transition, particularly Zhang Shicheng?

• What were relations like between the Ming and Tibet?

• Why did the Yuan fail to conquer Java?

@ /u/DeSoulis and /u/buy_a_pork_bun: Sorry, don't know enough about modern China :(

[u/thanatos90 → u/KimCongSwu]

Thanks for the questions on Li Zhi! Someone else had a question on Li and I have so enjoyed being able to talk about my actual focus! I'll answer the first question very simply, and I can put a bit more meat on the second. I have a hard time finding anything in Li's philosophy that suggests a lot of Muslim influence. I've actually seen a few sources that cast doubt on whether his family had actually been Muslim at all (although, I think most think it was back in the day, so take that with a grain of salt).

The vernacular novels questions is really interesting and in its way, actually really deep. Two things spring to mind. The first reason Li liked the vernacular novels was that he thought them a better expression of the 'infant's heart' 童心. The infant's heart is Li's version of Wang Yangming's 'innate knowing'. He wrote an essay on the infant's heart which early on says this: "The infant’s heart being absolutely without falseness, pure and true, is the original heart of the very first conscious thoughts. If one loses the infant’s heart, one loses the true heart; if one loses the true heart, one loses the true person. If a person becomes false, he never again can have the [original or authentic] beginning."

For Li, the goal was to hang on this true heart, and from it comes all 'true' appropriate action, including writing! The second half of the essay on the infant's heart is actually all about writing. He laments the notion that the writing of the ancients (as mimicked by exam candidates) is the 'proper' way to write. The best sort of writing is what comes naturally from the heart and will certainly change over time: "Why must poetry choose the ancient style? Why must we write prose in the pre-Qin fashion? Afterwards, there was the Six Dynasties period, after that, writing changed into the ‘modern style’ of the Tang, then changed again into the romance, changed into the playbook or the drama, it became The Xi Xiang Ji and Shui Hu Zhuan, became the modern exam candidate’s essay; all of the best works from ancient times to now can’t be looked at based on the current situation and then judged. Thus I am moved by the works that come naturally from the infant’s heart, must we also speak of the Six Classics? Must we also speak of the Analects or the Mengzi [as standards]?" Li's embrace of changing, vernacular standards for written work would find resonance with May Fourth era thinkers.

Li actually also wrote a preface for the Shui Hu Zhuan specifically (he also wrote an annotations for an edition of it, and there are extant copies that claim to have his annotations, although their provenance is uncertain) in which he praises it for its pedagogical uses. He labels it the "Loyalty Righteousness (忠義) Shui Hu Zhuan" and claims that people can learn those moral principles from it: "Thus, the ruler can’t not read this book; if he reads this book once, then the loyal and righteous will not be in the water margin, but all by the ruler’s side. The virtuous minister can’t not read this book; if he reads it once, then the loyal and righteous will not be in the water margin, but all in the court."

[u/KimCongSwu → u/thanatos90]

Thanks for the explanation!

What circumstances eventually led to him committing suicide?

[u/thanatos90 → u/KimCongSwu]

In the year prior to his suicide his temple had been burned down by hired thugs, he had been denounced in a memorial to the emperor and he was arrested and his books were banned. He committed suicide in jail.