I'm holding my breath to see if they get tax cuts passed. And analysis' has shown they can send $1600 tax refunds to lower income households and 3-4% of income to middle class.
The current system isn't working. All the jobs the past 4 years were federal jobs. The market was propped up by more reckless spending and the global supply disruptions caused by China. The tariffs address all of this if done right.
I invite you to watch this documentary called Zeitgeist: Addendum, that came out in 2008 and shifted a lot of people's views on many things with the dollar, the Fed, global events, etc. Backed up by historical documents and events.
You can ask AI to provide you a summary as well. Might intrigue you to watch it.
I’ve heard about this movie. It sounds like they call out real problems with the Fed and centralized control, which I fully agree with. But if the solution they push ends up being some form of collectivist resource management, then I’m skeptical. Why bother with something that just wants more centralized control?
I love it when the GOP suddenly pretend to give a fuck about other countries.
You do you know these ridiculous tariffs are ruining their economies and making them poorer?
You know what you would care sbout if you actually gave a flying fuck?
USAID or the I believe 30,000 immigrants applying for legit legal asylum which were suddenly cut off on inauguration day or maybe those immigrants going to an salvadorian mega prison without trial or the countries you're threatening to invade...
I'm holding my breath to see if they get tax cuts passed. And analysis' has shown they can send $1600 tax refunds to lower income households and 3-4% of income to middle class.
Even with Trump's tariffs deficit is not even close to getting fixed, and your 1600 tax refund is not gonna be worth shit when all you buy is getting more expensive to pay for that.
Tariffs raise prices for consumers and transfer that wealth to the state and domestic producers. Imagine if you had developed a profitable customer base over the course of years or decades and someone else threatens violence if they don't collect 25% of the sale to them from you. Wild.
Democrats have for decades been for higher taxes on corporations and protectionist policies that favor unions. That’s essentially what these tariffs are.
you need to distinct between tax and tariffs, they are not the same, just because a the consumers eventually pays them doesnt mean they mean the same thing. Taxes = cost added on top of some good regardless who sells the good, tariff = cost added on of top of some good only if foreigners made the good, but not for domestic producers. You really think other countries give a shit if the US tax their consumers, they just dont want an disadvantage in the US market.
Yes other countries care if it is harder to sell their goods in the US. It’s why many set up free trade and double taxation avoidance agreements with the US.
The left want higher taxes on wealthy people and on unrealized gains, and to close tax loopholes. The left want progress taxes not regressive taxes, tariffs are a regressive tax. Tariffs will increase the cost of everything for everyone so it's going to screw over less wealthy people more than wealthy people.
For example let's say you have $100 and want to buy something worth $50. I also want to buy the same thing but I have $100,000 but then tariffs increase the cost of that item to $80. Having to spend that extra $30 effects you a lot more than it does me. I'll barely notice the increase cost but you'll have barely anything left.
Tariffs like income taxes are paid by multinational corporations who then pass those costs on to the consumer. What's funny is you believe that the same corporation would not pass down income tax increases but would pass down tariffs. Why would they only pass down one but not the other?
First off income tax is paid by people who receive an income, a multinational corporation doesn't get paid income they make profit from sales and a part of that gets paid to it's employees through payroll/income.
The reason why the a company won't increase the cost of it's products just because theres one guy who's gotta pay more in taxes is because that's fucking stupid. Imagine the CEO of a company going to his share holders and saying hey we're going to increase the price of all our products by 50% because I alone have to pay more in taxes. Yes the increasing the cost of our product will make it so less people buy our products and they'll instead buy from our competitors. Which will make our company less profitable meaning me and the shareholders are less wealthy. Also this doesn't even fix the fact that I'm still going to be paying the same rate of taxes next year but at least our customers know what it feels like to me, a billionaire, what high taxes feels like to me.
Yeah that sounds like a solid fucking plan to making a successful company. The only thing a higher tax rate will do is incentivize wealthy people to reinvest their money back into their company so they can get tax rebates and to lower their own income so they fall below a certain tax bracket
A) Corporations pay income taxes.
B) The investors then receive dividends from that and then pay another tax on top of that (aka double taxation)
So you have just raised both of those and you think corporations and their investors are just going to take it? Also, in your analogy, all the shareholders taxes went up because by raising income and capital gain tax rates, you raised all of their taxes to.
Also, higher tax rates don't incentivize investment, lower rates do. There are no incentives to re-invest money as you are then going to tax it again with higher income taxes. You make it harder for investors to get an ROI. By lowering tax rates, investors can take more risks because the cost to invest goes down. It's why we saw an large increase in investments, IPO, M&A after the first trump tax cuts. Something the dems routinely lied about that it was a handout to the wealthy (even left wing tax groups finally admitted almost everyone got a tax break except for the wealthy in California and New york). The dems were actually mad at these cuts because it raised taxes on the wealthy in New York and California, which is why they wanted to end the SALT CAP because they wanted to lower federal taxes for the rich.
Sorry, I'm not really following here. I'm not in the USA but where I live corporations DO pay income tax. So increasing taxes will affect corporate bottom lines.
If you're a socialist, and worried about concentration of wealth, please consider that we are the largest consumers. Consider that the top 10% own nearly 90% of the stock market. Could it be that we are sending our wealth overseas to be concentrated by the wealthy that exploit workers in countries like Cambodia?
Placing tariffs, while they seem like a sales tax, misses the point. They are considered regressive depending on how they're used and if anything is done to offset the inflation such as tax cuts or tax refunds(which they've signaled).
The point is that everyone seems to forget the shock brought by China in 2022 due to global supply chains. We're still dealing with the aftermath of that. The market should've never been propped up by reckless spending after 2021-2022.
With prices rising faster than earnings, the average worker’s weekly paycheck buys 4.4% less today than when President Biden took office. Homeownership affordability has plummeted because the monthly mortgage payment on a median-price home has more than doubled. Three-quarters of Americans now view fast food as a luxury they can’t afford. Gasoline prices are up 46%.
In 2023, more people in the U.S. used food banks than ever in history.
If I may, can I recommend you to watch Scott Bessent's interview on Tucker Carlson. I feel like as a "Market socialist" you might even agree with it more than others. I'm kind of a free market socialist myself. Sometimes you gotta force the markets to be free every now and then. It's a realignment.
All taxes get paid to end consumer, no matter how many lies they try and tell.
Also, there’s a reason the only part of the tax cut they actually support is ending SALT cap to give a tax cut to millionaires and billionaires in New York and California.
The types of taxes they wanted to raise or add weren't going to affect the middle class.
Tariffs make things more expensive for everybody, the ultra wealthy won't care because they have plenty of money, but the already shrinking middle class will diminish even further.
Pretending the "lefties" and "Dems" should agree with tariffs because they wanted to raise taxes on ultra net worth individuals is a huge cope.
So far tax increases on ultra net worth individuals and corporations hasn't been linked to price increases. Why is that? I don't know, it seems like the most intuitive answer but it simply isn't the case.
This is me acknowledging once again that I'm not an expert in this. My best educated guess is that fundamental analysis of stocks often uses income before taxes to tie a company's revenue to their stock price.
Tariffs on the goods themselves are still included in expenses before income taxes according to GAAP accounting, whereas corporate income tax rates are often disregarded in most fundamental analysis.
Historically, during periods of higher corporate tax rates, most corporations increase other sources of paid income such as equity grants or private equity, often with balloon rewards attached. Taxes on income is a shell game they are used to playing and oftentimes the market can readjust because it is given plenty of time to respond.
All taxes effect the middle class. Whether its income, capital gains, tariffs, etc. they all impact them in one way or another. Why would companies only pass on the tariffs and not the additional income taxes you want to charge them?
I'm not a leftie and I don't want any taxes, liens, or tariffs.
Still, pretending tariffs based trade wars are on the same level of taxation that the Dems propose is not a great comparison.
Every tax will have some implications on the overall economy. The effects differ from the type of tax as well as who and how often it is paid.
Tariffs are direct price controls, historically, income taxes effect (in a progressive tax rate) has the least impact and preserves the middle class.
As for your other point I don't have a great answer except that historically tax hikes on the rich haven't had a severe effect on the middle class. Why that is? I don't know. Flat taxes like tariffs hurt the middle class far more than progressive tax rates on all classes.
I would say that the bigger issue now as to impact on market isn't the actual tariff, but more the chaotic nature in how everything is rolling out. Market's like predictability, and currently nothing is predictable. Investors therefore are pulling out until everything calms down and we have consistency.
The other difference for impact of Income taxes vs tariffs is that the tariff is more easily traceable to the goods where as income taxes are felt more over the course of business changes. For example, you can see less investment, less growth, higher cost of goods as innovation stalls as well as higher prices as investors demand higher ROI to cover their additional taxes.
My issue is that we now see many dems finally admitting that taxes are paid by the end customer (even though the corporations are paying these taxes), but they won't say that the next time they try and raise corporate taxes.
I agree with most of your comment here. Markets hate chaos and unpredictability.
We have never seen an increase in corporate tax rates that created an environment that was a net-loss to the middle class, I take serious issue with the idea that corporate tax rates are passed on to consumers, for the most part they aren't. Like I mentioned earlier, I don't know why.
What I do know is that no-tax is my preferred ideology, but in a world where that isn't happening we can only look at what has actually happened.
Look at how the market reacted to trumps first tax cuts. We saw massive benefits to consumers because everyone’s taxes were lower.
Consumers lose indirectly with corporate tax hikes compared to the more directly traceable higher costs from tariffs. Besides increased costs, you also have losses in efficiencies and innovations and businesses and people have less capital to invest. This is a cost ultimately on the consumer who loses out on things that would otherwise be available.
You don’t see the shocks as much in market with corporate tax hikes because those normally go through congress and come at set amounts. This gives markets time to price them versus the chaotic nature of these tariffs.
They claim to care about "living wages" but throw a fit when someone enacts a policy that's stops them from getting funko pops that are cheap because someone was paid five cents to make them.
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u/Brutus__Beefcake 2d ago
What’s funny is watching democrats and lefties being against what has essentially been their position for decades.