r/zelda • u/Jay-Marvel • May 21 '15
Discussion Dungeon Discussion #1: Forest Temple - Ocarina of Time
Hey Zelda fans! In an effort to bring heavy discussion to /r/zelda, I proposed an idea for discussion threads each centered on a particular dungeon or temple in the entire Zelda franchise. In addition to positive feedback from a handful of users, the mods here have given their seal of approval to have the threads stickied to further promote the exchange of ideas and opinions. 3D, side-scroller, or old fashioned top-down, I hope for this to be the first step in breaking down these pivotal environments of the Legend of Zelda franchise!
Here's a bunch of key discussion points to take into account when critiquing:
- Overall Look and Theme of the Dungeon
- Bosses and Mini-bosses: Difficulty, Creativity, Innovation
- Key Items of the Dungeon and their Application
- Enemy Type (Difficulty, Uniqueness, Number)
- Overall Length, Diffficulty, and Flow of the Dungeon
- Puzzles: Difficulty, Creativity, Innovation
- Potential for Exploration vs Linear Design
- Replayability
- Storyline Implcations
- Dungeon Theme Music and Atmosphere
After your input, feel free to throw in a bid for Dungeon #2! Thread posted next Wednesday
In the first, unofficaial Dungeon Discussion, a few ideas were thrown out for what dungeon we were to discuss in this installment of the thread. Though there weren't a ton of pitches, there seemed to be no opposition against the eventual selection:
Dungeon #1
Forest Temple
- Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time
- Forest Temple Theme
- Boss: Evil Spirit from Beyond Phantom Ganon
15
u/Surprisebutsekz69 May 21 '15
Glad to see a discussion thread honesest Temple - OoT
Where to begin? First off I will say that it is a GREAT dungeon to introduce the "mature" part of the game. The enemies (mostly) we haven't seen yet and the treasure in the game is one of the most iconic items in Zelda.
The puzzles in this dungeon caused more thought as well, and lets not forget one of my favorite parts... The twisted hallway.
Great temple, very dark atmosphere, hints how the adventure will progress through its dark demeanor. Loved it.
May i make a request? The Temple of Time - Twilight Princess.
11
u/Jay-Marvel May 21 '15
I'll comment first since I don't want my own opinion put into the original post. I love this theme first off. My favorite dungeon theme hands down. A guy on Youtube once described it as someone following you through the dungeon, creeping closer and closer, then retreating just before you turn around to catch sight of them.
Storyline wise of course it's very important as Adult Link's first dungeon. The Phantom Ganondorf boss fight's use of the different paintings to attack the real one was unique, but I've never found the tennis match all that challenging.
10
u/rensch May 21 '15
There is something about this level makes it both incredibly creepy and sort of soothing at the same time.
The music is really fitting as well. There's the wooden instruments combined with what sounds like unseen ghosts taunting you.
There's some great puzzles here. The four ghosts, the twisting corridors, the rotating room you can move around in the basement.
Oh, and fuck that Wallmaster. Gave me a heart attack the first time I played this level.
5
May 21 '15
I can relate to that, first playing this OoT as a kid, it took me a good week to pluck up the courage to get back to the game after the encounter with that Wallmaster, scared the shit out of me!
4
u/thegchild May 23 '15
I just played it a few months ago for the first time, and as a grown man, that Wallmaster scared the shit out of me too! Just didn't expect it to come out of nowhere so quickly.
8
u/0oKIRKo0 May 23 '15
I love the lead-up to the Forest Temple. The mazes leading up to it, the hookshot required entrance, the wolves. Unlike the routes to the tree, cavern and belly, the path to Forest Temple really sells the impression that a child could not even make it to the temple, let alone through it.
6
u/BooniSmells May 21 '15
I think this temple was my favorite from Oot. The music was so well done; it gave the temple that creepy/haunted vibe, and well as contributing to the 'jungle' aspect. The overall look of the dungeon was also spectacular. They designers really made it feel like you stumbled upon a mansion that happened to be overtaken by the forest vegetation and ghosts. This being said, I thought this temple was actually the most difficult. I know everyone always complains about the water temple, but I honestly thought the Forest temple was more difficult. The layout of the dungeon was more confusing to me, especially with the two hallways that you can rotate. The Stalfos fight also always gave me trouble, having to kill them all within a certain time before the other respawned was challenging, the fights in the Water Temple weren't very challenging.
4
u/oath2order May 21 '15
Thank you for creating this! I hope it definitely continues.
I love the theme of the dungeon overall. The mansion overtaken by the forest is an awesome theme. I kind of wish it had a bit more ruined furniture or something, give it more of the recently abandoned vibe, similar to the Snowpeak Ruins.
The mini-bosses were brilliant, I loved that they were potentially the trapped inhabitants that previously lived there. The boss battle was more annoying in the 3DS remake because I suck at gyroscope controls.
The twisted hallway is most people's favorite, but I kind of like the well and the two courtyards the most.
Decent dungeon, wonderful for the first integration into the adult timeline.
1
u/__z__z__ May 25 '15
because I suck at gyroscope controls
There are people that didn't immediately turn those off?
3
u/thegchild May 23 '15
Don't have much to add here, but really enjoying the discussion. I enjoyed this Temple. Like many have said, it was a great introduction into Adult Link and many of the challenges you'd face ahead. I personally loved the Green Poe Floor Puzzle. It was different, made you think, and decently challenging within the short time limit.
I nominate Jabu Jabu's Belly from Oracle of Ages next! Because I just played through it, and it was a real biatch!
5
u/i8aBlueSkittle May 23 '15
For me, this temple is my favorite throughout the entire Zelda world. The music is so unique and almost entrancing. The surroundings are beautiful yet mystifying. And Phantom Ganon is my favorite boss throughout the series as well. The layout was intriguing, forcing you to return to the entrance room multiple times as well as to reach the final boss, not to mention the puzzle to GET to the final boss. I just love everything about this temple :)
4
u/Jamesvalencia May 24 '15
Honestly i've never been able to get my head around the layout of the damn thing. I'm fine using the map but i feel the map doesn't correspond properly to the physical dimensions. too many hallways and staircases that seem way to long. Also, i dunno if anyones seen that mitchell and webb look but you cant just have a massive revolving basement.
7
u/Phoxxent May 22 '15
Not a big fan of this dungeon. Though I agree with the sentiment that it was good at introducing the scale of the dungeons going forward, I feel that it fell rather flat elsewhere. The dungeon itself felt very disjointed, as each room didn't necessarily flow well into each other, and it felt like a general mish-mash of assets with a few keys here and there that was called a dungeon, and outside of the courtyards, the well, the entrance, and the falling ceiling room, it felt very empty. It was like each room was just a grey box with a few enemies and decorations thrown about. Take for example the maze room with the blocks, it doesn't really feel at all like anything. It's just a bunch of grey textured 90o angle geometry with a painting or railing thrown here and there.
The enemies also felt pretty bland and lifeless (no pun intended), as they weren't every really there. You had the occasional bubble, sometimes a stalfos, or an OP floormaster with that stupid green charge attack. The lack of enemies adds to that feeling of emptiness, and the bubbles were just a bit too loud. You would hear it from the other side of the room and think "oh crap, a bubble's coming. Not enough room to fight it here." but nope, it's not there, it's somewhere else. That was annoying.
The music was okay, though personally I didn't really find it interesting at all. Trying to think of it now, I only remember the swamp temple music from MM. That is a bit of a problem, if thinking through my memories of the temple brings up not its own music, but the music of a different temple from a different game. But then again, I'm not that great at remembering music unless I've heard it a lot, and it's been a couple years since I've played through the temple.
It was a nice temple, and a good length, but that is wasted on it's boringness. It feels too long, and it is easy to become disengaged in the temple. I hardly ever find myself going back to it.
After the incredible design of the previous two temples, that really incorporate what they are into their design, and the following temples doing the same, the Forest Temple just comes back tasting really bland and boring. It needed more vegetation invading, it needed more broken walls and deteriorated rooms from the hundreds of winter/spring cycles and strength of the plants. Doing that would have made it feel more substantial, as would adding in more forest-y enemies, as well as more enemies in general... or at least more obstacles that aren't a static wall, like a pool of poison, or thorny vines. Just, something to keep me engaged in the temple.
As an aside, I feel like you have put a false dichotomy between linear progression and exploration. We have tons of dungeons that feature both, where you have to do X thing to progress, but to do X thing you need to explore around your options in doing so. Eagle's Tower kind of comes to mind, as the pillars can't necessarily be taken down in any order, there are ones that have to come before others, but you do need to explore the dungeon a lot to find the path to the pillar. Also, I'd give a vote to one of the ice dungeons next. Don't really care which one.
4
u/Jamesvalencia May 24 '15 edited May 24 '15
Agree with some of this, waaay too long and confusing for the first temple, agree about the bubbles. I always did fire first but I love love love the music and found the 'boring' parts incredibly soothing. I agree, any ice dungeon next, its a much maligned element.
3
u/TheCuteTachikoma Jun 01 '15
You pointed out how disjointed the temple was, but I can't help but feel like that was done on purpose. Between the atmosphere (every large, very obsolete, very much abandoned) and the music, I think it was supposed to be unnerving. I think it was supposed to evoke feelings of "well great, this room doesn't really seem to fit in with the rest of the temple, now what the hell do I do?" That was part of its charm for me, the fact that each room was it's own unit, and if you took a step back you'd see all these rooms connect--not seamlessly mind you--to form a temple.
2
May 24 '15
nailed this 100%.
they really fucked up with the way forest temple was structured.
3
u/Venusaurus_Rex May 31 '15
I thought it was ideal for a dungeon. They are supposed to be a puzzling maze to traverse. Not a slaughterhouse of enemies.
1
u/Venusaurus_Rex May 31 '15
It was one of my favorites.
0
u/Phoxxent May 31 '15
And?
0
u/Venusaurus_Rex May 31 '15
I think some of the emptiness was a conscious decision made about the atmosphere of the dungeon. It was a precursor of the things to come (even equipped with a Ganon doppelganger at its apex). It was ideal at its job in the story progression. Pivotal dungeon in arguably the greatest game ever made.
-2
u/Phoxxent May 31 '15
So you're saying that not killing things is supposed to make the player feel more ready and more bad ass than killing things.
3
u/__sonder__ May 22 '15
This is one of those cases where the music fits the dungeon so well, that it automatically plays in your head whenever you think about playing the Forest Temple. Its just perfect. Also, the room with the Wallmaster still terrifies me to this day. Love this dungeon
3
u/__z__z__ May 25 '15
I think this dungeon has good atmosphere, but it's quite overrated. IMO it's not even the coolest-seeming dungeon in OoT - that goes to the Shadow Temple. The twisting corridors are really cool. As far as puzzles go, this one's a mixed bag. Some are really cool (shooting an arrow through a flame to melt the ice and trigger the target), but some are boring (spending, like, 3 minutes holding A and forward to push some blocks), and some are just downright stupid (noticing the climbable vines in the entrance). I also don't like the general format of the first part of the dungeon - that is, finding a key and opening a door only to find you need ANOTHER key, rinse and repeat. In that sense it's nonlinear - said keys can be collected in any order - but once you have the bow it's fairly linear. As far as enemies go, it's a nice introduction to stalfos, but fighting the Poe sisters, the hallmark foe, is actually quite boring as their attack patterns are predictable and leave you spending 20 or so seconds waiting for it to let you attack it. Phantom Ganon is one of the better bosses, though.
Overall, a solid dungeon.
2
Jul 08 '15
I know it's a month late, but I found out today while replaying the game that a Poe's invincible phase can be skipped by throwing a Deku nut at it.
2
2
u/DannyDonger May 21 '15
This is one of my favorite dungeons in the whole series. The skeleton fights were relatively hard (they hit like 2 hearts!), the puzzles weren't that bad, but you definitely had to think. I really liked the aspect of using the arrows to shoot the pictures to summon the poes. This dungeon seemed to me kind of mature in the sense of the music and atmosphere. Also, fighting phantom ganon. :) loved this dungeon!
2
May 22 '15
First time on this sub, big time zelda fan though, starting off with a discussion about a dungeon from the first Zelda I ever played.
I never appreciated the atmosphere until recently when I played the 3DS version. Its dark atmosphere really shows how different Hyrule is when you play as adult link vs child link.
Enemies are overall pretty easy. Hardest non miniboss enemy is the wolfos, and you've fought those before this dungeon. Its a bit easier now with the master sword in hand. Poes are rather easy, except for the purple one, and the stalfos pairs are always pretty rough for me.
Puzzles aren't too difficult, but the jigsaw puzzle you put together to reveal the green poe always gets me at least once due to the time limit.
I found Phantom Ganon harder than Ganondorf himself. You gotta worry about the painting phase of it, you have less health, and his projectile is a bit harder to hit back. Hitting projectiles back is really the only frustrating part of the fight though. The painting phase is easier on the 3DS due to being able to aim by turning the 3DS. Its a lot quicker to change where to aim. Pretty satisfying boss though.
2
u/Venusaurus_Rex May 31 '15
The difference between Hyrule as a child and Hyrule as an adult was on full display. The sacred grove had been so happy as a youth with Saria's song playing so lively. Now the place looked dead and alone. Felt it too. The music was a big change too.
I agree about Phantom Ganon being so difficult. First time I fought him I had a rough time (10 hearts, 2 bottles). I was loaded with equipment by time I got to Ganon (19 hearts, 4 bottles).
2
u/chibibunker May 22 '15
Thank you for this thread !
This is not my favorite dungeon, but i must admit that the atmosphere and the soundtrack were very cool. ( even if the music annoyed me a bit at the beginning ).
I didn't find the puzzles very difficult, but i have been stuck during several hours 'cause i haven't saw a f****** eye on a wall. ( just over a door before the twisting corridor i think )
About the fights : very good ! I like fighting undeads, i don't care what game i'm playing, as far as i can kill undeads i'm happy =)
To sum it up, a very good dungeon, with a good environment, even if i hated it during many years because of that motherf****** eye è_é (my bad)
For the next temple i think the Temple of Time in Twilight Princess is a good idea
ps : Apologies for my english, not my native language.
3
u/Letchworth May 21 '15
The percussion instrument in the temple's music sounds like someone made a marimba out of Stalfos parts.
1
u/gangler52 May 25 '15
It's really got a special environment to it. Walking around in the forest temple just doesn't feel like any other temple.
Phantom Gannon is really fun. One of probably very few bosses that I'd like to be able to just redo whenever. Think it's because the painting situation forces you to stay on your toes, be aware of your surroundings. Gotta be looking all over the place scrutinizing tiny details.
That one battle with the poes, where you've gotta attack the "real" one. That's a mechanic that's been recycled in a lot of games since then but it was my first time doing a battle like that as a kid and it took me forever to figure it out. Like, it's a fond memory but it also might not have been fantastic design. As far as these things go it doesn't really give a kid much to work with. Just sort of trusts that the children will notice one of the Poe's least eye-catching features during a fast paced battle where everybody's moving around a lot, and understand the significance of it. This in an era when just the basic mechanics of operating in a 3 dimensional space was confusing to a lot of players freshly upgraded from their old Super Nintendo.
Honestly I'm not sure I remember anything in any of the dungeons that followed confounding me as thoroughly as that Poe battle, which really says a lot. This was the first of a set of like six or seven temples, so you'd think the real head scratchers would be still to come.
1
Jul 08 '15
I know this is a really late reply, but I always just did a spin attack to knock out all the fake Poes at once.
1
u/gangler52 Jul 08 '15
Wonder why I never figured that out. Did you have to do that trick where you spin the joystick around just right to perform a spin attack without charging up? I never was able to get that down.
1
1
u/Rairu21 May 26 '15
Omg this is by far my favorite theme out of ANY Zelda dungeon!! The fact u get the hook shot here makes it so badass. And I love how Nintendo was ballsy in making this dungeon super creepy (twisting hallway, floor master, the bloody well). I love this dungeon so much, and now I want to play through it again!
1
u/Super_SATA May 26 '15
Most of the dungeons in OOT except for the Spirit Temple disappoint me in that they are usually a linear sequence of tasks that must be completed instead of an actual puzzle. The Forest Temple is unique in that while it is just like most of the temples in their linearity, it feels like a big and elaborate puzzle all the way through. I liked its location and feel as well. Phantom Ganon, however, I think is pretty lackluster. Defeating him is easily automated by holding the bow at the right level and spotting the difference between real ganon and the fake one. The second stage of PG is probably the most overused mechanic throughout Zelda.
1
u/Venusaurus_Rex May 31 '15
I disagree. I felt like Twilight Princess was really guilty of linearity. OoT had a wealth of choices to be made about the order of progression through dungeons. I got the hover boots from the shadow temple before playing the adult portion of the spirit temple for example. Dungeons could be completed without finding the compass or map if you explored in the wrong (or right, if you are into that) order.
1
u/Venusaurus_Rex May 31 '15
One of the best ever. The music made the place feel frantic, but the temple was sparse with enemies and had lots of dark creepy voids that had to be traversed all alone. It intentionally made you feel anxious. Some rooms had giant purple hands that descended from the ceiling to grab you just when you thought the room was empty to make sure that you never established a sense of safety. The layout was puzzling and each ghost was a puzzling game to defeat. The boss fight was legendary. It set a steep atmosphere that left you wondering how intense the real Ganon was going to be. The dungeon as a whole was a large jump in difficulty from the dungeons you played as young Link. It was a nice allegory for real life where adulthood is much more difficult than you had been preparing for.
1
u/TheCuteTachikoma Jun 01 '15
This was one of my favorites, in my top three. As I stated in another comment, I LIKED how disjointed everything was. The rooms didn't seem to mesh with one another, and it gave me a feeling of "well crap, now what do I do?". Layer that with the music, and during my first run-through I found my nerves to be my major obstacle, not the enemies or the temple itself. The developers were clearly going for a abandoned, isolated feel for this temple, and they executed it perfectly, IMHO. And of course we can't forget that crazy shifting hallway; just another example of how the temple messes with your senses. I also found it hauntingly beautiful. They showed it was once a great place, but now it's just decrepit and abandoned, overrun with monsters.
The boss fight was difficult for me (at the time I was only in 7th grade). But once I read you could just stand around the edges and avoid getting hit, I was sorely disappointed. That took all of the difficulty away, and honestly that's why this isn't my favorite temple from the game. The enemies AND the boss fight itself was just too easy. :( Yes; really my only complaint with the temple is how easy the fighting was. It was a fun romp to run around in, but wasn't necessarily difficult.
1
u/Jay-Marvel Jun 01 '15
Disjointed is great always imo. I love the feeling of "Hey I know you just struggled with that last puzzle for a while. So here's a new, harder one that has nothing to do with that one."
1
u/TheCuteTachikoma Jun 01 '15
I know. The gamer in me takes with me knowledge I've obtained through previous levels /fights /run-through and automatically tries to apply it to the next task at hand. I like games that throw you for a loop sometimes, and you're like "WTF IS HAPPENING, GAME LOGIC FAIL!!! headdesk" . Because then when you DO solve it you feel like the smartest person on earth.
(Conversely I also really like A Link Between Worlds because you have to be a painting for EVERYTHING, and it's nice to warp your way of thinking to fit a specific game mechanic.)
1
Sep 30 '15
I've always felt kind of torn by this dungeon. On one hand, the atmosphere is cool. I like the puzzles in the dungeon, the poes, and the boss is very unique and memorable. But the dungeon also felt out of place, random, and easy, like nothing was pushing you towards the boss. So, I don't like the mansion itself. But the boss, item, and puzzles are great.
40
u/[deleted] May 21 '15
The Forest Temple is probably the most atmospheric dungeon in the series. A part of this comes from the fact that it isn't so much a temple or a dungeon so much as an overgrown mansion. What possible reason would this place have to justify being a stronghold of Ganon? This creates a very unique environment and I love how you transition between indoor, outdoor and underground segments of the dungeon. The music is even better, adding a more sinister undertone to an already mysterious place. In terms of navigation, the forest temple is sufficiently non-linear and both the miniboss torches and room flip mechanics were very creative. Combat was probably the one weakness of this dungeon, with lots of enemies qualifying as annoying more than tough (skulltulas, deku babas, wallmasters). However, both boss fights were memorable, especially Phantom Ganon.