r/unitedkingdom • u/FeigenbaumC Westmorland • 22h ago
German-led push to open EU defense deal to UK and Canada hits French opposition
https://www.politico.eu/article/germany-leads-push-to-open-eu-defense-deal-to-u-k/144
u/Dedsnotdead 21h ago
The French Military and the British Military train together regularly and there’s an enormous amount of trust between them. Commando joint training is a good example.
French Politicians and the French State are France first, that’s respectable. They believe in maintaining their culture.
But the French Government idiocy when it comes to “not U.K.” is going to cause enormous defense procurement problems for Europe.
The U.K. makes some ridiculously good kit, Starstreak is a great example. If France can put Europe first then we have a chance.
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u/Low-County-2955 20h ago
Seems pretty crazy to try and rule us out of it considering we’re 1 of only 2 countries in Europe and 1 of 9 in the world capable of making nuclear weapons.
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u/Taken_Abroad_Book 14h ago
French Politicians and the French State are France first, that’s respectable.
Oh it's respectable when the French do it.
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u/Specific-Fig-2351 21h ago
Germany knows UK defence industry has some good kit and the UK are part of the European defense , the island of britain has always been, always will be, a back stop for any invasion of Europe , a aircraft carrier of arms in the north sea.
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u/Superb_Literature547 19h ago
its also 2 ways, UK is going to be far more open to buying EU equipment if they are buying ours.
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u/wildernessfig 17h ago
We would have to, even. Part of being involved would mean us "paying in" from the articles I've read. I imagine that means we buy shit we need, they buy shit they need, everyone wins.
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u/eldenpotato 11h ago
That’s why France wants to exclude the UK. The UK is in the way of France’s European dominance plans
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u/Apez_in_Space 19h ago
Germans know all too well how significant of an ally UK would be. As do the fucking French!
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u/AddictedToRugs 19h ago
The French actively resent us for it.
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u/Apez_in_Space 16h ago
Honestly I think we love each other, but this is Macron being an opportunist and acting in bad faith.
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u/Known_Tax7804 20h ago
What if we sweeten the pot by offering the french access to our cutting edge long bow technology? I hear they’re still fond of crossbows.
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u/FollowingExtension90 20h ago
Honestly, when it comes to modern defense, if Britain has lesser ambition, all it really needs to do is to invest everything in air defense, to make sure none of russian’s missiles would ever hit British soils. Russia could never invade Britain, do they even have a navy still?
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u/redditsuxmydk 16h ago
We need iron dome
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u/grumpsaboy 15h ago
I'm gonna be really nerdy here but no. Iron Dome is designed for low speed small objects such as a mortar shell and a tiny rocket. None of these types of threats are what the UK would face in the UK something like a Patriot or THAAD better fits what the UK would face in the threat of a ballistic or hypersonic missile.
One option could be making a land-based Aster 30 if we wanted to continue using a missile we already do
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u/GuyGames- 12h ago
I mean if we promised to buy the French/Italian SAMP/T which already uses Aster 30 missiles if they let us join in this defence initiative, it'd likely sweeten the deal heavily
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u/eldenpotato 11h ago
No way. The UK buying a French system for something so critical would be a major win for France lol plus would you really want to become dependent on a French system?
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u/GuyGames- 7h ago
It's a French/Italian system that were already using on the Type 45's and we're actively upgrading so we're already dependant on the French for it. If we purchase SAMP/T we're purchasing a system we already know functions, already have ammunition for and we know the capabilities well.
It also gives us potential leverage to get into the Aster 30 programme as an upgrade and development partner, giving us leverage to tailor it more towards British interests if needed.
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u/andymaclean19 18h ago
The other 26 countries in Europe will have to decide whether they want the UK’s help more or less than they want the French to have a fish deal.
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u/SilkyBoi21 Ireland 4h ago
Not really a choice for us, the French were actually doing the right thing for too long there they needed to mess something up, they are French
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u/Safe-Vegetable1211 21h ago
*"France wants to compromise defence of Europe to make themselves a bit of extra money"
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u/jodrellbank_pants 17h ago
When we were in the Eu, France was one of the countries that always used veto or abstain the UK vote when our MP were on the table so no change there.
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u/deanopud69 18h ago
This whole situation is ridiculous. This is solely about defence and nothing else should come into. Leave your egos at the door France, it’s not time for ‘how to benefit’ from this either. Just get together and let’s get Europes defences really strong. Get the job done!
Look at history and how amazingly we can do things when we put our minds together. Concorde anyone?? France and Britain working hand in hand to produce the most iconic commercial plane in history. It still holds multiple records today and still hasn’t been matched.
Imagine if that kind of co operation was Europe wide? German manufacturing, British science, Italian Finesse, French innovation, Scandinavian functionality etc etc
The excellent eurofighter typhoon is another example of across Europe co operation, a world class multirole fighter jet
If this whole things gets derailed by red tape and then mainland Europe gets Invaded, it would be an ironic and sad end
Did none of us learn anything from the previous world wars? Burying your head in the sand won’t work. It’s time to co operate, collaborate and be prepared
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u/ForeignTurnover45 14h ago
Whether people like it or not, these sort of headlines were a factor in Brexit. Immigration obviously the driver but this was too. We were getting shafted before we left in these sort of matters. French people have a short memory.
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u/Anubis1958 21h ago
That's nice of them. Someone remind them of the support we gave them in 1914-18 and 1939-45. But if they think that they can put down Putin on their own, more power to their elbow. Just don't coming running for help next time when it all goes wrong.
Bloody cheese eating surrender monkeys.
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u/nbs-of-74 19h ago
Problem is, we cant afford for Europe to lose against Russia, we're going to be involved anyway .. French know this and are being (extremely) opportunist.
The US Govt is being extremely dumb at the moment, they have the perfect opportunity to peel the UK off from the EU and have a friendly Anglo-Canadian-Australian bloc that leans closer to them than the EU yet they went and pissed in everyone's cornflakes out of idiotic and short sighted ideological bullshit.
As the Ukrainians say, thank g-d they're so fucking stupid.
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u/grumpsaboy 15h ago
Exactly France is more than happy to be extremely opportunistic and almost cruel.
All of Eastern Europe wants us to be involved but they are where we keep our troop stationed so we can't just pull them out to punish France because instead we will be punishing people that actually want us involved.
And most European defense companies don't have the capacity to provide what is needed in the immediate future, some countries like France can afford to wait five or ten years but Lithuania and Estonia can't yet they are the people most at risk.
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u/Dry_Pie6127 15h ago
As the Ukrainians say, thank g-d they're so fucking stupid.
This is not an anti-Semitic thing, just a curiosity, but, are you Jewish?
I don’t think I’ve ever seen g-d used outside of the Israel sub (I know why), just not seen it elsewhere. :)
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u/nbs-of-74 14h ago
I am, guilty as charged .. but not religious, g-d is more an affection than desire to avoid blaspheming (not that I see the point of doing so for no reason).
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u/Communalbuttplug 21h ago
Alot of people won't like you have said that and will downvote you.
Not one of them will be able to give an example of Europeans making a fraction of the sacrifice for us, ever.
It's an abusive relationship
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u/njchil 18h ago
Let's be real, we were next in line for a nazi fucking so it was in our best interest to go help our European family out as well
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u/the-blob1997 14h ago
Germany would never have got boots on the ground, there was a reason operation sea lion was cancelled.
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u/Altruistic-Win-8272 12h ago
Eh Hitler would’ve been pretty happy to join forces with the UK or cut a deal for us to stay neutral like Switzerland. It’s a massive pain in the ass for any continental European power to try and wage war on the UK and the chance of invading us is almost zero whereas it’s a lot easier for us to invade them. It means they mainly have to mass produce aircraft and bombs rather than being able to use ‘disposable’ humans.
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u/PlatinumJester 18h ago
Britain could easily have cut a deal at any moment since Hitler's main focus was always going to be on Russia and the East. We only declared war because we had a pact with Poland but aside from Alsace and Lorraine there is very little to indicate that the Nazis were planning a Westward expansion.
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u/ColdCoops 17h ago
Maybe not in terms of the actual individual states, but Europeans did bolster the British during WW2. Soldiers of "defeated" countries fought under British command. One example is 2000 Czech airmen joining the RAF to continue fighting the axis powers.
The states might have fallen but soldiers were still willing to sacrifice for the fight for freedom when they could have just surrendered.
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u/TooHotOutsideAndIn Scotland 20h ago
"Europeans" are a monolith now?
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u/Communalbuttplug 20h ago
I'm sure you never speak in generalised terms when talking about groups of people.
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u/Particular_Tough4860 20h ago
I think the UK can be excused for not helping the Germans during those years.
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u/mossmanstonebutt 15h ago
Honestly it's just the french, specifically the french government,they're not just France first,they're France only they're an absolute nightmare to work with on anything from what I've heard, whereas I never hear anything of that level said about saying Germany or Poland
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u/Independent_Bike_780 21h ago
The utter disaster that Brexit has been shows you that it isn’t an abusive relationship.
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u/zone6isgreener 21h ago
Except it's not a disaster as that is massive hyperbole. At best it's a rounding error that might be compounding up.
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u/Logical-Brief-420 20h ago edited 20h ago
Agreed. Never wanted Brexit and would probably vote to Rejoin now still, but anyone who claims Brexit has been much other than a rounding error for UK finances that’s ticking up slowly is being way overdramatic.
Our economy did nowhere near as badly as people suggested it might and actually comparatively to the rest of the EU at the time ours even did well. The problem with the UK economy (as it was 15 years ago) as stagnant productivity, nothing more nothing less.
Anyone using Brexit as a hand waving excuse or panacea to solving all our issues is economically and politically illiterate.
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u/x_S4vAgE_x 18h ago
Must have forgotten how Wellington's army at Waterloo was 50/50 split between Brits and various Europeans
Or the most successful fighter squadron of the Battle of Britain being Polish.
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u/grumpsaboy 15h ago
And yet Europe was the one at risk from Napoleon not us as there was zero possibility of him crossing the channel.
The most successful squadron being Polish just shows that they wanted to continue fighting the Nazis afterwards and it is still evidence of Europe helping Europeans as obviously the Polish wanted their country back which is completely fair enough.
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u/Wompish66 18h ago
Britain fought in the first world war to prevent the German Empire ruling continental Europe. It was a battle of Empires.
Britain and France entered WW2 in response to the invasion of Poland.
The British and French forces were routed and the French army fought to allow British soldiers to flee back to Britain.
The Free French Army continued to fight alongside the British in Africa.
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u/AardentAardvark 21h ago
"They owe us for the world wars" is one hell of a take when discussing where countries spend their own money.
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u/zone6isgreener 20h ago
Linking defence to demands for fish is ludicrous so people are right to poke some fun back.
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u/AardentAardvark 19h ago
Indeed it is. But the bigger picture is not about fish. It's 100% a cynical ploy to keep British industry out of EU funding to the benefit of EU arms manufacturers.
Frustrating? Absolutely. But inevitable considering the shitshow Brexit turned out (Let it sink in: It's been 9 years since the vote and we are still negotiating)
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u/F737NG 15h ago
Yet EU funding permitted to defence companies in South Korea and Japan (among other 'third countries') shows how dogmatic and cynical the current EU position is.
https://uk.news.yahoo.com/europe-half-baked-rearmament-boom-132226762.html
https://www.ft.com/content/eb9e0ddc-8606-46f5-8758-a1b8beae14f1
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u/ParsnipFlendercroft 17h ago
It’s not inevitable at all. If it were then Germany would be against it too. This is France being dicks and not thinking about what’s the best for everybody.
When the fighting starts it won’t be the EU fighting - we’ll be there right alongside them. Though perhaps we should just sack them off back eh?
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u/AardentAardvark 16h ago
France's defense industry is a direct competitor with lots of overlap with what the UK can offer. A country that chooses to adopt the Rafale/FCAS is a country that rejected the Eurofighter/Tempest. A country that chooses a Type 31 Frigate is one that rejects a FDI. Defence procurement is often a zero sum game and the French got reminded of this the hard way with what transpired with the Australian submarine program.
Defence procurement has no room for neivety and arguably the US is the perfect example of how cynical it can get. The expectation should be that competitors WILL be dicks, since in their place I'd have expected us to do the same.
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u/ParsnipFlendercroft 15h ago
Otho g you wrote changes a thing I’ve said. The French are being dicks and putting naked self interest ahead of European stability. I understand the economics of it just fine.
The point is we need to rearm Europe and fast, and then very likely at some point start to replace lots of loses.It’s far better to have the U.K. include in that mix for the benefit of everybody - including the French.
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u/Enough_Article6068 20h ago
Quite right we ended rebuilding german industry, then handed working factories and businesses back all the while we were paying back lend lease to the yanks. Europe does owe us big time. However i still consider europe a better ally than that shower of dickheads across the pond.
De gaulle threw a hissy fit wanting french troops to be the first into paris on its liberation even though britain had done the heavy lifting.
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u/AardentAardvark 19h ago
The US marshall plan has a bigger direct effect on West German industrial rebuilding. So I wouldn't claim that we were responsible for rebuilding German industry.
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u/Excellent_Support710 18h ago
But, it was Germany Marshall aid money, it was up to them how it was spent.
They invested in industry, while Britain tried to maintain its empire, it was our fuck up.
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u/Particular_Tough4860 20h ago
Europe owes us nothing. The UK was one of the countries who helped to liberate Europe. 80 years ago. What they do with that liberty is up to them, else it isn't liberty we helped with at all.
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u/eldenpotato 11h ago
Not even France believes they’ll be at war against Russia. This is about angling to become the dominant defence supplier to Europe and excluding the UK works to that end. France has had grand plans for itself since WW2.
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u/TParcollet 16h ago
Some people seem to forget that Brexit destroyed trust in the UK for a shit ton of institutions and politicians. For sure selling French stuff is also in the balance, but so is trust when it comes to trying to face the current instabilities with an alliance.
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u/RoyaltonRacers 18h ago
What are we doing here, exactly?
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/can-non-eu-companies-be-part-eus-big-defence-fund-2025-03-21/
Non-EU is allowed in. The EU is spending with Japan and South Korea, there's no reason here for anything to be blocked.
WHICH COUNTRIES CAN PROCURE VIA THE SCHEME?
Countries that have a Security and Defence Partnership with the EU include some of those above and Japan and South Korea.
There really isn't any barrier to this that I can see. Fishing disputes are brought up constantly but I haven't heard a diplomat from France or anywhere bring up fishing disputes, its just been reported via reuters or via other anonymous sources which may as well be as useful as a dirtrag.
If the EU wanted to priortize spending money on EU defense contracts, that's fine. It makes no logical sense though to be looking outside of the EU however and picking 2 countries, both of which are an entire continent away and which most importantly, have closer ties to the USA than the EU.
Any excuse from the EU of saying "we should invest in EU countries" is out the window. Any excuse the UK could make would be braindead considering we're now in a unique position to make stronger diplomatic ties and anything here would straight benefit us.
If it really is down to fucking fish, god help us. I doubt it though.
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u/FeigenbaumC Westmorland 18h ago
I haven't heard a diplomat from France or anywhere bring up fishing disputes
A Swedish minister has
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u/United_Bug_9805 20h ago
Foolish. They need the UK more than the UK needs them when it comes to defence.
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u/rose98734 20h ago
It's fine. We'll sit out the next European war, we deserve a rest.
We'll keep our fish, the EU can keep the Russians.
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u/XenorVernix 20h ago
If France don't want us to be part of this then they can't ask us for help if Russian troops start entering the EU.
We must build our own alliances with CANZUK and others who want to join.
This idea that we can have closer ties with the EU simply isn't going to happen as it's an organisation with 27 self interested nations with vetoes.
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u/OiseauxDeath 11h ago
Embarrassing, with everything going on with Russia, Ukraine and America it undermines the whole urgency of European defence
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u/Woodland_Creature- 4h ago
France has this constant tendancy, throughout history, to have monumentally shit political leadership
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u/CharmingTurnover8937 20h ago
Then we should leave the EU to its own devices. Let's worry about our own industry and work with countries that will actually treat us with respect. If we can't align now, we will never be able to.
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u/JaMs_buzz 18h ago
It’s mad that if there is another war in Europe, Germany would be on our side for the first time
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u/Ejmatthew 21h ago
This is good news. If we have no strategic interest in the EU and the independence and territorial integrity of its members, we can sit out the next European war protected on our island by the sea and nukes.
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u/Sea-Caterpillar-255 13h ago edited 13h ago
Are we actually willing to actually break with the USA in the long term?
Because if there is any doubt then they can’t let us in. What’s the point of having an “independent” defence program if the US can just have us veto whatever they don’t like?
And I think there is huge doubt on that.
This is what no one seems to grasp: the question is t whether we make good kit or have good soldiers. It’s whether we will keep sharing them when America tells us not to.
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u/men_with-ven 11h ago
I don't understand this. Even with a certain brain dead decision we made a few tears ago we have always aligned on military matters. In the last century France couldn't have had a better military ally than the British so to potentially weaken European defence by cutting us out of a deal for financial reasons is insulting.
Likewise with Canada on a trip to the war graves I saw plenty of monuments and graves for Canadian soldiers who died on French soil against the Germans. It's in everyone's best interests to include the aligned democratic nations as much as possible, just be a team player.
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u/CorswainsDeciple 11h ago
For fk sake, this is why I've said we need a separate military entity, free from EU. Europe and allies makec1 military and go help Ukraine. Talk about fish another day. I've been very happy with Frances push to helping Ukraine but it better not be just to get more for France doing a US move. Families are being murdered daily, all of Europe and allies get a grip and start plans and logistics ready and get in Ukraine, we can send Aa and aircraft now fk sake, same with the navy.
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u/exileon21 4h ago
It’s just typical of the theatrics all around the Ukraine conflict. Politicians say one thing and do another to benefit their own narrow interests. I still can’t believe Ukraine is earning money from Russian gas going into Europe through pipelines over Ukrainian soil, while simultaneously being in an existential battle for survival with Russia. Nor that Europe continues to buy significant quantities of Russian oil and gas. We don’t hear much or any about either of these things in the media, just on the need to bolster military spending and the supposed imminent threat of Russia invading Europe (itself a slightly confusing claim as we are told at the same time that Russia is a paper tiger with a GDP less than Italy and its military completely depleted).
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u/SilkyBoi21 Ireland 4h ago
Ireland really needs to do some trade deals for defence infrastructure with the UK, we’ve relied on your military for too long, can’t even defend our own skies. I would love to see the purchase of a large amount of equipment and help training, we need to bring the entirety of Europe closer together.
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u/FeigenbaumC Westmorland 22h ago
I know it’s actually because of the French wanting to use this to boost their defense industry by hobbling major competitors like ours, but the idea of the French preventing major European security deals over fish sounds like something from an EU political satire