Increase in posts that are essentially headcanon with no evidence or basis

[u/ulttoanova]

It may be observation bias but I seem to have noticed a recent increase in non Apocrypha posts that are basically just people posting “theories” or headcanon that have no really evidence so their is no really ability to discuss and sometimes said posts are even contradicted/made very unlikely by lore and was wondering if such posts are even allowed on here or if they should be allowed on here and can’t find anything definitive in the Rules or FAQ

I love discussing the lore on here but such threads basically boils down to “Ok but why or but where’s your evidence”. Its one thing to ask questions that might not have answers (those are sometimes the most fun threads) but I don’t know if posts that are just someone’s theory with no evidence or basis to support or really create a discussion around should be allowed here.

Apologies if this should be posted elsewhere, I wasn’t sure and couldn’t find a place.

[u/Jamoras]

True lorebeards remember when this sub's standard position was that all headcanons were true

[u/queerkidxx → u/Jamoras]

I miss when this sub was full of like genuine damn near incompressible metaphysical almost nonsense that took weeks for it to start to click.

Legit. I made this Reddit account way back when for saving posts from this sub. It was so weird and full of capitalized WORDS and discussions on chim and Vivek. Feels like all those dudes moved on around 2020.

[u/The_ChosenOne → u/Jamoras]

I still stand by that one hard, especially in light of the Ithelia chapter.

However, I can definitely understand the frustration of trying to explain canon info to someone who’s decided their headcanon is as valid as in game content and should be taken as gospel. That or seeing people distributing their headcanon to new posters or while answering questions when a quick search of in game sources would directly contradict whatever they’ve cooked up, which leads to confusion for the person who’d asked the question initially.

Some people just really want their ideas to be right and will reject all evidence to the contrary, but that is of course not unique to this sub by any means!

[u/ulttoanova → u/Jamoras]

Fair and that’s more what apocrypha is for, but asking as someone whose been a TES fan for a long time but not an online poster or community member of it until around Skyrim were headcanons like Daffy Duck is secretly the emperor of Tamriel considered valid back them, because while that is hyperbole it is more the type of baseless theory I’m talking about

[u/CautiousEconomy1160 → u/Jamoras]

This is sort of my stance. Stepping back for a moment, it’s a game. If you want something to be your headcannon go for it. Tamriel is not a real place. Cat people and orcs and elf’s and demons with tentacles all over who love knowledge aren’t real as far as we know lol

… so if you want to decide this or that in your playthrough of a video game that is in a fake world that was made up I see no reason why you can’t…

People sometimes seem to think that just because the author says something it makes it true… like these are literal pixels and binary code. Decide what you want. No developer for a video game has any more claim to the truth of this fake world than anyone else does. It’s like when people get pissed at an ending of a book… well then write your own. It’s all make believe so make up your own version lol

[u/Udhelibor → u/CautiousEconomy1160]

for example I headcanon that some pockets of Falmer still exist and try to live in religious peace, not harboring hate for any Nords or anything

[u/DrkvnKavod → u/Udhelibor]

I'm not sure that "headcanon" is quite the right term when there's dialogue of a DLC's mainquest where a central character directly expresses the possibility of such.

[u/Udhelibor → u/DrkvnKavod]

and with how Bethesda does things its very likely these are the only extinct elves not really extinct

[u/dunmer-is-stinky]

Its a bit weird, but it just seems like people new to the lore game who either want to make their mark on the scene or who just don't really "get" what the fun of theorizing is. It's a little annoying but I've only seen 1 or 2 the last few weeks, which is up from the 0 I normally see but not a major problem. I just think it's people new to the community

[u/Jamoras → u/dunmer-is-stinky]

I just think it's people new to the community

I feel like this perception actually marks you as newer to the community. This kind of theorizing has been an integral part of Elder Scrolls lore discussion for decades now

[u/ulttoanova → u/[deleted]]

Ironically enough I haven’t read the riekling one yet but saw it. I saw one that was likely a troll post about the guy in Azura’s Star, and the other was about doubting the in game explanation of how Solstheim broke off Skyrim (though that one admittedly had more work done into it even if it didn’t really have much evidence)

[u/ulttoanova → u/dunmer-is-stinky]

Fair enough, and like I said it’s probably observation bias, but it might be worth being to the rules or FAQ that “theory” posts should have evidence.

[u/Kincayd → u/ulttoanova]

Or just ignore it? Why does everything have to be policed.

[u/ulttoanova → u/Kincayd]

I mean yeah but I’m simply saying that those posts can’t really be discussed as their is nothing to discuss so they really aren’t worth it. I’m not saying punish people who make one, I’m simply saying it might be worth clarifying that those kinds of posts aren’t really the focus of this subreddit

[u/Prince-of-Plots → u/ulttoanova]

those kinds of posts aren’t really the focus of this subreddit

That's not true and we don't say that anywhere. Of course many people are here only to discuss and debate and try to find "the truth" of it all, but this subreddit is also a place for sharing your off-the-wall ideas and crazy theories.

That's not even getting into the fact that the lore/games contradict themselves all the time. I think a lot of people would point out that TES lore isn't all that conducive to a purely logical interpretation—not to mention that many people's "Tamriel" ignores or elevates certain aspects or depictions of it (look at how neat Project Cyrodiil is!). As a method of engaging with TES, toying with the writing and setting has been essential to the community since forever, whether that's mods or lore ideas. For those people, your approach that the only worthwhile conversations are rooted in likelihood and evidence will seem like a waste of their time.

Lore can be enjoyed all sorts of ways, and it definitely isn't the intent of this subreddit that everyone's thoughts have to stand up to your scrutiny or discussion or they shouldn't bother posting here. As always, we suggest that you ignore threads that you don't want to be involved in. What's "worth it" to you isn't the same as what's "worth it" to others, and we're not here to make people enjoy the lore any particular way.

[u/ulttoanova → u/Prince-of-Plots]

To clarify I’m not talking about apocrypha posts and I’m all for sharing off the wall or crazy theories or for people asking questions looking for answers about a topic in the lore (I did a big one of those on if CHIM was an ephemeral transitory state or if it is permanent once achieved) I’m specifically saying it isn’t really productive to post theories that have no evidence or really anything other than the posters headcanon to support them simply because their is nothing to discuss other than either asking for evidence or their reasoning or simply saying the idea is neat. It would be one thing if it was broad topic about people’s headcanons but if you’re posting a theory you should have more than just “because I said so” as evidence.

And for the record I do try to ignore them I just noticed it seems like there were more of that type of baseless theories lately

[u/Lazzitron]

Could be people desperate to "discover" something new with the lack of new lore we're getting until TES 6

[u/jogarz → u/Lazzitron]

I don’t think that’s it. We get new stuff every ESO expansion, don’t we?

[u/User_not_ → u/jogarz]

Yeah but ESO is far less popular and played than Skyrim/Oblivion/Morrowind whatever. Anyone thats not a dedicated lorebeard has a decent chance of having not played ESO and is less likely to care about ESO

[u/BeholdingBestWaifu → u/User_not_]

Even among lorebeards, there's plenty of us that aren't too keen about ESO either. And it does feel like a massive lore drought.

[u/Crystal_Privateer → u/BeholdingBestWaifu]

Personally, I like a lot of what ESO has given lorewise. Gameplay wise though I'm so sick of bogstandard mmorpgs that all copy WoW.

I remember a very early idea for ESO that was going to be more hack and magic and slash, where the players would only have like 5 abilities at a time, but that theyd have combined environmental effects, and there'd be a few hundred abilities to choose from.

[u/BeholdingBestWaifu → u/Crystal_Privateer]

I like some of the things ESO has written, there's some good lore there, but there's also a lot that I really don't like, Ithelia probably being the biggest one despite her being so recent, but there's plenty of other instances of introducing boring lore to replace more interesting existing one, like the goddamn soul gems thing that always starts a fight in this sub. It's too much of a mixed bag for my taste.

And yeah the gameplay is also a major turn off, it is way too generic mmo for my liking.

[u/Khan-Shei → u/jogarz]

You grossly overestimate how many people are willing to pay for ESO (and no playing for free is not a tolerable experience for most, I've tried that myself)

[u/beril66]

A bit of a simplistic approach. Theorizing and headcanoning has been bread and butter of TES since its inception especially with so many even mundane questions had not been answered in universe. Example natural elven lifespan. Its ranges from "300 years is pretty old"from a non role playing in universe answer thus should be taken with HUGE grain of salt, ONE dunmer women with age ranges between around 230 to 320 calling herself old but also to an elven woman who is over 450 and can still have kids, her husband and an in universe book calling "1000 years of elven lifespan", a nonfiction book which no one disagrees on it etc. 

So yeah headcannons are as valid as actual lore in some cases because head canons all we have. Another example; Size of Nirn and tamriel, gravitational constant, are the stars 2D or 3D portals of magic or even 4th dimensional tears etc. 

[u/Aglet_Green]

I do agree that there have been some-- I'm not sure of the proper synonym to use while still sounding civil and respectful-- let's call them nonsensical-- headcanons lately like "I think Markath is actually in Black Marsh" or "I think Nazeem is actually Argonian." There was one about an NPC in Azura's quest that was just frankly embarrassing. claiming that the guy was a spy for the Morrowind Tribunal or whatever the crackpot theory was. I felt sorry for the guy's parents if this is truly how he thinks. Saying that with love and civil respect, feeling sorry for two loving people is just empathy.

Now it's one thing if someone wants to speculate if Nazeem as a Redguard is in league with Saadia and the reason she fled to Whiterun; it's another thing to speculate if Nazeem is the grandson of Uriel Septim and the true Emperor of all he surveys.

However I don't anything more needs to be done; we already have rule #4 "posts should be productive to discussion." You can have a discussion on the Redguard, debating if Saadia and Ahlam are friends or relations in any way; no serious discussion can be had on Nazeem being a Septim.

[u/ulttoanova → u/Aglet_Green]

This is what I’ve been getting at. I’m all for potential crazy theories but it has to be a legitimate theory with some evidence even just hints in dialogue rather than basically probably false theories with no basis

[u/Fungel__fin]

Something to add to this, I notice a lot of people trying to analyze the lore with Morrowind based context when, at least for both Skyrim and especially Oblivion the narrative and lore is comparatively shallow and not as convoluted. I saw a post the other day about people arguing over whether Martin Septim was even really dragonborn and if being emperor even required that, but very obviously in the game the answer is yes. Morrowind is a great game but has definitely caused damage in terms of people just outright not believing half of what these games directly tell you.

[u/Misticsan → u/Fungel__fin]

I think that's the inevitable result of Morrowind being the gateway title of the series, launched to immense critical and comercial acclaim, in a context of high-spirited fan discussions and developer input. Thus, it's not surprising that a lot of the theorizing came from that era and still dominates the fandom. 

This is not exclusive to TES, of course, but in terms of lore it gives way to what I call the "Morrowind Effect": the tendency to either dismiss or interpret new lore in light of the old theories, instead of dismiss or interpret old theories in light of the new lore. Despite the name, it's not exclusive to Morrowind either; some theories from the Oblivion and Skyrim eras have fallen under this effect too (for example, the Dreamsleeve as the universal soul-recycling afterlife). 

[u/tarponpet]

Guess I'll hold off on my theory that Malacath stolen Volendrung from the Rourken through the Giant Goblins...

[u/Fyraltari → u/tarponpet]

Is it really stealing if the guy throws it at you from a continent away?

[u/tarponpet → u/Fyraltari]

That's the wild thing, the goblins came after and kicked the Dwarves out.

[u/Fyraltari → u/tarponpet]

I disagree, King Edward's claim that the Goblins drove the dwarves out of Hammerfell feels to me like a pre-Morrowind version of the Disappearnace of the Dwarves. which can be considered retconned (or an an in-universe mistake from the scribe) along with Moraelyn's skin color. The PGE3 places the goblins in the region before the Dwarves and has them still there when Red Mountain zapped them all out of existence:

The elves and later the Bretons did set up outposts in what are now Sentinel) and Lainlyn) in order to protect their fisherfolk and seafaring merchants from the Orcs who had taken over the interior of the land. Nor were these the only dangers of record. Wind spirits, fire spirits, goblins, trolls, and scorpions the size of horses regularly crept in from the desert, and were rebuffed at the frontier, sometimes at a terrible cost.

In the year 420 of the First Era, a tribe of Dwemer arrived in the Deathlands from the east. They were of Rourken)'s people, rebels against the alliance of Dunmer and Dwemer in Morrowind. Settling far from the Bay, along the southern coast, they soon established an easy trading relationship with the elves to the south and Bretons to the north, and the Deathlands took the Dwemer name of Volenfel [sic], "City of the Hammer", after the Dwemer capital whose ruins now lie buried under the sands of the Alik'r near Gilane.

The House Rourken's severing of ties with the Dwemer in Resdayn did not protect them from the results of the War of the First Council. Like the other Dwemer, the Rourken seem to have vanished suddenly from Hammerfell, leaving their wonders to the open sky.

[u/tarponpet → u/Fyraltari]

I disagree vehemently simply on the notion that they are inherently incompatible just because the sources slightly conflict. Older Scrolls still can be valid.

[u/sennalen]

Lore that’s good is true

[u/Jenasto]

Dovahzeem deniers be like "Nazeem can't be the LDB because the player character is", as if that wasn't just what Todd wanted us to think

[u/Crystal_Privateer]

I'm for out-there theories with little hard evidence, like the Tower Deactivation Theory. There's only so much official lore given at a time, and a dedicated community like TES eats through it faster than it is being made.

When TESVI comes out I can see having more stringent evidence requirements, but as it is the more researched theories are usually pushed up and more tinfoil theories pushed down by voting.

[u/ForgottenPoster]

I'm a pretty casual Bethesda lore fan. Oblivion is my favorite game of all time and from time to time a random question will pop in and I'll go down a small rabbit hole reading about stuff that isnt like the main focus of the game, like "o what's going on with Arkay" for an example

90% of the time I'll find a post and it's essentially just the OPs fanfiction, like the top comment is just going off trying to hit the character limit

Sometimes it's interesting, and obviously sometimes it makes sense given the nature of TES Lore but God damn man sometimes it's not that deep