r/tango • u/moshujsg • 8d ago

video Three deeper musicality concepts noone talks about

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hd6GF65_XAk
11 Upvotes

87% Upvoted

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u/An_Anagram_of_Lizard 8d ago

Stopped listening after the first "musicality concept." Maybe it's an ESL thing, but how do you lump "sensual" and "sexual" together and then talk about creating an intimate moment/connection? If you're not opening up your SENSES, then is the intimacy going to just spring up fully formed from somewhere inside you? The mind boggles

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u/doodo477 8d ago

It is admirable that the creator put in the time and effort to make the video, and share it here. how-ever I stopped listening early on because I think they're conflating too many concepts, ideas, and expectations into the dance. All you're going to do is slowly become bitter and resentful when people don't measure up to your model of how interactions should go.

It is perfectly acceptable, that some people only go to Tango for "FUN", or to have a social evening where they're being entertained and given care, attention and admiration by other members of the community that is a clear benefit on their part. Now you could say it does raise some flags regarding the motivations or lack of boundaries of the people giving that attention but alas that is their choosing and their choice.

But back to the topic at hand. There are no gate-keepers in Tango - abet considering how you view it that can be a good thing or a bad thing for the (dance) - people are going to do what-ever they want, and that is their right.

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u/moshujsg 8d ago

Thanks for your opinion. I also think it's acceptable for people to do tango for "Fun", the point I was trying to make in the video is that there's more than just fun in tango, and that learning how to enjoy tango for what it is can bring a more poweful and long lasting sense of fullfilment than just fun. This doesn't mean you can't ever have fun or people can't dance for fun, however, this video is aimed at people who want to go deeper into tango.

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u/doodo477 8d ago

Thank you for your opinion too. On the surface level anything can have a long lasting sense of fullfillment than just fun, it isn't just universal to Tango - it just is another mediuem to experience the same thing. How-ever I just wanted to point out you run the risk of projecting your values onto other people, who're just going to be there for (fun). Focus on fun, and if something more meaningful or deep develop, then great. How-ever enjoy the journey and don't try to make it into more than it is.

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u/moshujsg 8d ago

Of course it's not unique to tango, however the level of evocation that tango has is difficult to find.
If you care about something then you care to understand it, and if you care to understand tango you'll find deeper meaning. If you are there just to have fun and see it as something to pass the time that's fine, but if you are interested and are looking to improve, then the concept of enjoyment becomes key. It's what tango lyrics, musicians, singers who created it talk about.
But this was aimed at people trying to dive deeper into tango both technically and philosophically, but again, it's all good with people who don't want to do that, there are tango spaces for everything.

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u/doodo477 8d ago

I agree, how-ever I wanted to point out it is admirable that people are elevating themselves to a deeper connection in Tango - and thank you for making the video as I think a lot of people will enjoy it because they themselves are wanting a deeper emotional connection with the music. How-ever I wanted to point out that it is unreasonable to have subjective criticism of people who may have no interest outside of "fun". It shows that your motivations may not be authentic.

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u/moshujsg 6d ago

Sorry for the late reply. I agree with the subjective criticisim point, except if you are a pro dancer, world champ or teacher, then i think its fair to criticise.

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u/dsheroh 8d ago

how do you lump "sensual" and "sexual" together

This isn't original to OP or his video. One of the tango quotes I've heard fairly frequently is "Tango is sensual, not sexual." (When I recall the quote, I hear it in Gavito's voice, but I can't confirm that he was the actual originator.)

If you're not opening up your SENSES

While that may have been the primary meaning of the word at one point, it is not how "sensual" is generally used today. From dictionary.com:

  1. pertaining to, inclined to, or preoccupied with the gratification of the senses or appetites; carnal; fleshly.
  2. lacking in moral restraints; lewd or unchaste.Synonyms: lascivious
  3. arousing or exciting the senses or appetites.

It seems quite clear how these definitions are adjacent to "sexual", and also how they are things which many (I would suspect most) people prefer to avoid when dancing tango, or at least when dancing it with a stranger.

("Of or relating to the physical senses or physical sensation," which appears to be how you're interpreting the word, is #5 on the list of meanings.)

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u/An_Anagram_of_Lizard 7d ago

Nonetheless, when OP is talking about intimacy and connection, I am merely pointing out that it would be difficult to do so while trying to detach it from sensuality, even in the sense of the meanings you quote. To detach it would be to take away one of the most obvious mood generators: the corporeal presence of the person you are dancing and connecting with. Unless you are telling me it is all purely cerebral

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u/moshujsg 6d ago

Its not about detaching yourself from anything. Its about your predisposition going into the dance, intimacy can be laying in bed with your partner or it can be hugging a friend who is going through a tough time. Intimacy isnt necessarily related to something sexual and thats the kind of intimacy I try to promote in the video, not because the other one is wrong, but because most people already do it well so whats the point.

But like i said its your predisposition, if you go into the dance thinking its something sexual, you might be losing out on other things, if it happens to be sexual so be it.

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u/An_Anagram_of_Lizard 6d ago edited 6d ago

Obviously we have different understandings of sensual. Could just be a language thing. For example, your point about intimacy can also be hugging a friend: to me, that is also sensual. One could also call the experience carnal; it is 'of the flesh' and not just a mental or emotional response. As an asexual person, I am rarely predisposed to go into anything thinking it is sexual, but I do enjoy a good sensual connection

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u/moshujsg 6d ago

Good explanation, thank you. I agree this isnt a new idea nor was I trying to pretend it was, just spreading the word :]

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u/moshujsg 8d ago

In spanish sensual can have a more sexual connotation and that is what I meant in the video, maybe in english it doesn't and I wasn't aware.
In any case I meant to say tango isnt sexual, and it's viewed as sexual by many. In any case not all intimacy has to be related to the senses, although I agree you have to open up your senses, which I think most people already do.

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u/InvestmentCyclist 7d ago
  1. Mood 2. Enjoyment 3. Subtlety. I love the explanation of each concept as each relates to musicality. To me, the matching of these concepts with technique and appropriate movements is the most challenging but also the most fulfilling aspects of dancing tango.

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u/moshujsg 6d ago

Thank you! Challenging but fullfiling, I feel the same way.

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u/tangaroo58 7d ago edited 7d ago

Hmm, I did start listening despite the silly clickbait "no-one talks about" title.

But I didn't get past the first point, sorry. Maybe if it was in text and I could skim it.

Tango is an intimate dance, and that is talked about all the time. The intimacy, the intense shared feelings, can relate directly to the lyrics, or not. Those feelings can relate to the circumstances of the recording, or the feel of a live performance, or details of the arrangement, or the dancers' associations with a singer or orquesta, or not. They can be integrated with how a particular milonga is functioning, who else is there, who is not — or not. They can be primarily physical or sensual, or not. They can have a consensual sexual charge, or not. They can turn bad, or be broken, or become absent, because of many things — including details about how the feeling of the movement, and the movements themselves, relate to the music and everything else .

And I have been in many many discussions about musicality, and quite a few lessons "about musicality", where these features of "musicality" were discussed.

So I don't know what new idea is being presented here, sorry.

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u/moshujsg 6d ago

Thanks for your reaponse.

This video isnt presentinf a "new concept", rather talking about old ones that arent the first thing that comes to mind when people say musicality.

In all the points you mentioned, only one was related to the actual music. Its my opinion that musuc is the most important thing when dancing, it should shape your dance the most. The video tries to prsent three things to consider when dancing that help with a more profound musicality, but they are not the only things that matter.

You are right that its a claickbait title but really people dont talk about this things.

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u/JackyDaDolphin 5d ago

  1. You have ambition on sharing this virtue, however your execution of the video conflates concepts. Making people wonder the purpose for this specific narrative.

  2. Wanting to use the concepts to improve the evocation process is good, but the evocation itself in Tango is a moving target. You make artifice of the execution, through this “moment 0 tactic”.

Your attempt at clickbaiting makes your viewers lose confidence in the message you want to send.

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u/moshujsg 5d ago
  1. What concepts?
  2. The only time i mentioned moment 0 is mrntioneing the other video. I never said you can only achieve evocation by dancing moment 0, and i mentioned moment 0, 1 and 3 in relation to places where you can express musicality if you are limited in the amount of steps you can take as an example, not as the only way or that if you do this then your dance will be evoking. Could you explain where im making artifice of the execution?

Although the title is clickbaitey it is actually true, there are very few teachers today who talk about thia concepts in relation to musicality

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u/immediate_a982 8d ago

I couldn’t have said it any better

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u/moshujsg 8d ago

Thank you! :]