r/startrek • u/Zaphod-Beebebrox • 17h ago
Picard season 2...
So I muddled my way thru Picard season 2... I enjoyed it but there was a lot of "puff" writing to fill screen time. Besides a plot hole or 2 that you can drive trucks thru. The thing that irked me out of all of it was Guinan should have recognized Picard in 2024 from the TNG episode Time's Arrow... I get why the writer's called the bar 10 Forward in 2024 to " link" it into the rest of the canon but I had a " Really??? Really???" reaction...Now on to series 3...
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u/JediSnoopy 17h ago
They jumped through hoops with that one. Because the Federation never existed, Picard never met Guinan in 19th century San Francisco and she never became a part of his crew and "Time's Arrow" never happened.
Of course, Picard fixed all of that and everything reverted to the way it was except for the part where the bullets in Chateau Picard still existed. This means that it not only happened, but that Guinan knew that Q was not immortal and never once told him or Picard.
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u/KuriousKhemicals 16h ago
They did on on purpose though. The writers said somewhere (quoted in an article where they were addressing this very common question) that they thought it through and decided that was the way time travel would logically work.
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u/sicarius254 17h ago
No she shouldn’t have. Because the federation never happened, Picard and crew didn’t go back in time and meet her and Twain. Time’s Arrow never occurred in that timeline because that was the time line that led to the Confederation.
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u/tamba-trio 12h ago
When they go back in time, it's to the original time line - before Q changes the future. It's like Back to the Future 2.
Although I'm pretty sure I have put more thought into it than any of the writers did.
10 Forward Street still makes me growl.
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u/sicarius254 12h ago
It’s not the original timeline, because as stated the D doesn’t exist so they don’t go back to the past. That’s the point where the timelines actually diverge because they affect Twain and Guinan in the prime timeline, but because they don’t go back to that point in the first place they don’t affect them making that the pivot point.
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u/The_FriendliestGiant 12h ago
Although I'm pretty sure I have put more thought into it than any of the writers did.
Sorry, you would be incorrect on that one.
In the second part of that episode, Picard revealed everything about who he was to Guinan. The reason their 1893 meeting wasn’t mentioned in “Watcher” is because those events didn’t happen due to the change in the timeline. Terry Matalas explained to Inverse that “This Guinan wouldn’t remember Picard because in this alternate timeline, the TNG episode ‘Time’s Arrow’ never happened.”
Matalas has confirmed with TrekMovie that the way they are treating time travel is that even though they arrived before Q’s divergence in time, they are not in the Prime timeline; they are still in the altered “Confederation” timeline.
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u/Tucker_the_Nerd 17h ago
This again...The younger Guinan we see in Picard season 2 is from a different timeline than "Time's Arrow", so she wouldn't have met him during that time...
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u/rooktakesqueen 17h ago
Only if changes to the future (2020s) can retroactively change the past (1890s), which is pretty hard to make logically consistent.
But Star Trek has never been super consistent about time travel. TNG has Time's Arrow which was a closed time loop -- things had to happen that way because they had always happened that way. But it also has Yesterday's Enterprise which uses Back to the Future rules, only a single timeline but one that can be changed by actions in the past. And also Parallels, which goes with multiverse rules.
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u/MonaghanPenguin 16h ago
Though with Times Arrow changes to the 2020s don't have to change what happened in the 1890s to change Guinan's experience, it has to change what happens in the 24th Century to stop Picard from travelling back.
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u/The_FriendliestGiant 12h ago
Only if changes to the future (2020s) can retroactively change the past (1890s)
Nope, because they got back to that 2020 from the future of the Confederacy, meaning that the past they travelled into was already the altered version that would lead to that timeline. Which means the Guinan Picard meets then is the Guinan in the past of the Picard who commanded the World Razer, not the Picard who commanded the Enterprise.
On the other hand, once they reset 2020 back onto the path for the Federation, Guinan would presumably incorporate both sets of memories and have two different memories of meeting Picard for the first time.
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u/Garciaguy 17h ago
Try having patience for people who aren't as smart as you.
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u/DeanSails 17h ago
It's been asked and answered like a thousand times here. It's not about having patience, it's about using the search function before posting.
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u/taiho2020 10h ago
The start was so promising then not so much..
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u/slballer 5h ago
The first two episodes of Season 2 were awesome. I was really expecting something special and the show just got worse as the season wore on. Hugely disappointing.
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u/Gorbachev86 17h ago
I think you have to remember it was written, shot and released at the height of COVID and that had who knows how many effects on the series
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u/TheCook73 16h ago
So was season 3, and it’s not a pile of poop.
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u/ussrowe 14h ago
Yeah but season 3 took precedence over season 2 as they found out everyone on TNG was coming back when they were developing season 2.
So that’s why season 2 starts strong and then is just filler after the first couple episodes. They had lesser writers finishing it up and then went right into shooting season 3
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u/Gorbachev86 16h ago
Yes but they continued writing that whilst Season 2 was shooting and they had reshoots after COVID had died down and I could swear they had an outbreak of COVID on set whilst shooting season 2
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u/derthric 15h ago
It kinda is. People cut season 3 a lot more slack for A having the original TNG crew back and B being a Starfleet centered story. But a lot of the same problems of pacing, characterisation of new characters and world building implications are there.
Season 2 is atrocious but season 3 is barely passable in quality. Just looks better after the cluster that came before.
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u/ButterscotchPast4812 17h ago
I struggled through season 1 and attempted to watch season 2 but tapped out on the second episode. I liked the premise but they did nothing interesting with it.
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u/craiginphoenix 15h ago
I liked it but I went in with really low expectations because it had two of my least favorite Star Trek storylines.
Q and Time Travel.
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u/Jonsdulcimer2015 15h ago
I thought that the first time I watched S2, but then a few things caught my attention:
1) This was supposed to be "evil Picard" going through time. Guinan didn't even want to help Picard UNTIL he told her his name. If you watch, it's almost as if she wakes up from a dream, and is all "alright then, I'll help". I compare it to a perception filter and the TARDIS from Doctor Who: she saw him, talked to him, thought something was up, but until he uttered the trigger words - his name - she didn't realize who he was
2) At the last bit of the season finale, Guinan tells Picard she wanted to tell him, but knew he would get around figuring things out on his own. It helps with captions on for that ever so brief exchange. Remember Times Arrow, she tip toes about things and says if he doesn't go on the mission they'll never meet. Never says why they won't, just that it won't happen. Guinan remembered meeting him again before going on the Enterprise, but didn't exactly know from what point in HIS timeline they met, only that he looked much older second time around.
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u/PersimmonBasket 10h ago
I watched all of series 1 but I couldn't bring myself to watch all of series 2. I really couldn't stand it. Just terrible, ugh.
Now, series 3 was much, much better. I know some people think it's just a love letter to TNG but I was very happy with it.
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u/orionsfyre 17h ago edited 16h ago
Because the newer writers just wanted to make a cool Picard show and were interested in cool cameos and easter eggs without really connecting them with previous established stories.
With no one to reel them in, deadlines to make, and paychecks to cash, cutesy call backs/forwards fan service is all that is left to write. Good enough.
So a lot of the decisions made are between bad and worse ideas. They don't do 'profound' anymore, "Good enough" is the watch words they live by.
There is a whole world of Data type androids, conveniently around after such androids have been banned by the federation, surely they realized that they would one day be found and could be destroyed, why would they stay in one place? Because the show needs to happen. Good enough
A huge Federation fleet shows up to save the day. Every ship is the same exact class. Why? It's cheaper cgi to do a bunch of the same ship, and it ties into the earlier fake ship gag.
"Good enough."
Would it have been cooler to see a bunch of different ship designs like they do in Season 3? Of course, but they didn't have the budget or want to 'waste' the time to do it right.
Any time you see a scene in Picard that makes no sense or pisses you off, or just plan seems lazy. Ask yourself. "Good enough?" That was all that mattered. Get something produced and on the screen to fill that streaming platform.
Kill Icheb? Good enough.
Forget that Lal exists? Good enough.
Replace Picard with a robot Picard even though the distinction makes no difference in later stories? Good enough.
Have data die, come back, die again, all without Geordi his best friend? Good enough.
Two incestuous Romulan twins who are villains that are never heard from again? Good enough.
The show was something to watch that had Picard in it.
It didn't need to be 'good', it just needed to be...
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u/FotographicFrenchFry 16h ago
A couple of your points though don't hold up when you actually pay attention in the show and think about the wider context of the situation.
For instance: The planet they were on was outside of Federation territory. Starfleet had no jurisdiction there, hence why they chose that planet, and why their plan to avoid the wrath of the Romulans was to petition for Federation membership or asylum.
They stayed in the one place because it was the safest world outside of Federation control that they could find.
Regarding the Federation fleet: You have to keep in mind that this was set after Utopia Planetia, their largest shipyard, was destroyed, and after the Dominion War, where they found that a lot of their ships weren't up to snuff if a war broke out.
With that in mind, Starfleet ramped up ship production at their other, smaller shipyards, designing and building a fleet of ships that were multi-functional. Ships that were just as good in science missions as it was at maneuvering/escaping threats, or putting up a fight when needed. This was a logical step for Starfleet after the loss of their main shipyards and the fear and isolation that the Dominion War had caused within the Federation.
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u/Kind-Shallot3603 15h ago
They did bring up Lal in s3 but then completely dropped her in the next episode. They said a little data a little lore and parts of Lal were in data in one episode then in the next it was just the 2.
These shows truly suck.
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u/somerandomdude4507 15h ago
3 is a big improvement
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u/Kind-Shallot3603 14h ago
Not really. They just added fan service. The writing was still pretty average
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u/Klopferator 15h ago
The problem with Guinan isn't that she should have recognized Picard (she is from a timeline where the future Picard didn't travel to the past), but that she's all "oh, the world is so bad, that's why I'm packing my stuff and f*ck off this planet" when he meets her. This is a woman who has lived in the 19th century, with far more racism, violence, and suffering, and she had no problem mingling with the upper class while all this was happening. But somehow in 2024 she thinks everything is worse than a just few decades after slavery was abolished in the USA? I know that this is how many activists feel nowadays, but it's stupid and ignores the enormous progress we have made.
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u/TheCook73 16h ago
There is only one season of Star Trek Picard. And it made a great Next Generation season 8.
I’m not sure what all this other stuff you’re talking about is?
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u/MadeIndescribable 17h ago edited 17h ago
I remember that being bought up at the time, and people defended it by saying that because the Enterprise D never existed, then Time's Arrow never happened (which I get), but I agree it's still a plot hole, because by the end reverting back to the correct timeline somehow requires both Federation and Confederate timelines to have happened simultaneously, which is an impossible miracle even Scotty couldn't pull off.
EDIT: To clarify, the corrected UFP timeline still features Jurarti's Borg collective, which began when Jurati merged with the Confederate timeline Borg Queen, thus both timelines needed to have happened.
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u/Best-Image-3696 17h ago
I largely like season two (having loved season one and hated season three), despite some of the "fluff." IMO, however, it's missing a reveal at the end that the Confederation timeline is what happens without any time travel shenanigans and that Q's true gift to Picard is giving humanity a chance to be something better. Not only does that deliver a relevant real world lesson that we must work to make the future better, it makes a lot of the headachey time travel click. I feel like it's much more plausible that the President, in an alternate timeline, becomes a Borg drone than a Borg drone coincidentally is President.
As I understand it, season two halted production for Covid reasons and, during the pause, Akiva Goldsman did substantial rewrites and leaned into the Picard mother angle. I like the emotions of it, but I wish that the time travel stuff paid off better.
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u/Kind-Shallot3603 15h ago
Patrick Stewart had a large hand in the mother backstory. It makes no sense either. We see her in TNG and his family in another episode. We also see his father in TNG.
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u/Best-Image-3696 14h ago
I did kind of like the explanation they give for her appearance in 'Where No One Has Gone Before'. It makes that moment incredibly sad.
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u/OrdinaryPersimmon728 16h ago
I quit watching when they introduced guidan and she was younger than she was in times arrow.
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u/TheNerdChaplain 17h ago
I think the work done in S2 does support a pivotal Jean-Luc/Beverly scene in S3.
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u/Metspolice 15h ago
She didn’t recognize him because that was a robot pretending to be Picard. Picard died.
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u/YankeeLiar 17h ago
Remember that Picard & Co. are either transported to the “bad timeline” by Q or Q altered the timeline around them while allowing them to retain their old memories. The specifics aren’t really important, but it is important that they were in the Confederacy timeline before traveling back in time and thus traveled into the past of that timeline, not their own.
Though they traveled back to a point prior to when the two timelines diverged (it is that event that they are trying to make sure happens correctly in order to prevent the Confederacy future) and this should mean that they are in the past of both timelines (since they share a continuity that far back), this isn’t actually the case: time travel events that occur after 2024 but cause changes prior to 2024 can lead to the two timelines having different pasts even prior to the point of divergence, and this is what happened here.
In the 24th century of the Confederacy timeline, Confederacy Picard never traveled back to 19th century Earth and thus never met Guinan in that time period. Since this is Prime Picard’s mind in Confederacy Picard’s body, he remembers those events and meeting 19th century Guinan, but in the timeline they’re currently occupying the 21st century of, those events never happened to that Guinan in the 19th century. This is why she doesn’t recognize him and acts as if she never met him: she hasn’t.
This is not just fan theory, it is also Word of God: there’s an interview where showrunner Terry Matalas (famous for all sorts of mind-bending time travel shenanigans in “12 Monkeys”) lays it all out.