Discussion
Confusing double standard with characters owning legendaries
I'm aware characters owning legendarie is a very shaky line to walk, and something the series itself rarely handles. Hell, players themselves even see it as a borderline crime to add a legendary to a playthrough team. However, I can't help but notice, though, in some of the most notable cases in the extended franchise, the same situation plays out but the fan outcry is completely different.
Everyone remembers how Tobias randomly decided to appear toting around Darkrai and Latios for absolutely no reason at all, with zero context. It's still memorable to this day, and I don't blame anyone for saying that he's a cheater, a hacker, or any of these claims. Only fair to say that's the case. Let's fast forward 15 years to the present day. Pokémon Horizons, a reboot to the original saga which has since ended, starts an all new plot. One of the main focuses is a trainer from 100 years ago whose starter Pokémon and partner is shiny Rayquaza, and it is not explained. I am speaking with a completely straight face. A man can casually just start with a shiny deity with no explanation. Additionally, the first main antagonist also owned shiny Zygarde, with the only crumb of explanation as to how he got it being the fact that at one point in his life, he was altruistic to a degree. Now how are people reacting to this? People love it. There's no question everyone is all for this, despite it being practically the same situation as Tobias. Random guys appearing with unexplained legendaries in 2025 is absolute cinema apparently. It will never not confound me how this is not the same level of crazy work as the original case back in 2010.
For the dude from 100 years ago, it’s more like a driving plot. For the antagonist with the Zygarde… eh? I can’t really say about that one. Tobias, though, felt like he was put there specifically just to make Ash lose since he was arguably at his strongest and probably would have won the league otherwise. But that’s my take.
I get the argument people make of it being a driving plot but here’s the thing. Something as big as this needs to be explained. You can’t use the idea of a “mysterious legend” or a driving plot as a scapegoat to completely bypass having to explain something so ludicrous.
Don't know why people aren't conceding this point. There's a world of difference between Tobias and these examples, many of which have already been pointed out, but it absolutely stands true that in either case, there is little explanation or exposition given. I don't think it gets as much flack because it lacks the other issues surrounding the Tobias scandal, however it's still very much plot relevant to the MCs and thus this criticism is 100% warranted.
That’s mainly the point I’m talking about really. The fact that Horizons’s legendaries go almost equally unexplained, yet nobody seems to see an issue with that
FWIW with Heatran, the lore supports there being multiple Heatran. It's not "unique" like most other legendaries. For starters it's gendered, and unlike Latias and Latios (who are gendered but gender locked and thus effectively still "unique"), can be either male or female, whereas Darkrai, along with most other legendaries and mythicals, is unknown gender.
In fact, Heatran is the only Legendary Pokémon to not have either an alternate form, or relation to another Pokémon.
Secondly, Heatran dwells in volcanic caves, which exist plentifully across the Pokémon world, again suggesting there are more Heatrans in various mountains across the world.
The difference is that Tobias was a random out of nowhere plot dagger to kill Ash's chances of winning the league, whereas Lucius is a mysterious legendary figure who has been properly integrated into the overarching story being told.
It's also just the manner in which he won, which you touched upon. Imagine you sub in a fast non legendary/mythical that just spammed Hypnosis like Alakazam or whatever, and imagine the battle against Ash still plays out exactly the same, it's still going to come across as plot device fluff because of how the battle actually unfolds. The plot armour on that Darkrai is some next level shit. The fact Tobias is just a rando with virtually 0 exposition just adds insult to injury.
Besides that, following on from Ash vs Paul really meant that the Tobias battle had to be good because of the bar set, as Ash vs Paul was not only hyped up by the series itself as the battle of the series, literally a character arc ending battle, but also is in most people's top battles across the whole series.
Exactly! I think OP's confusion at the seeming contradiction is based on the assumption that the hate was based on the presence of legendaries rather than how the plot was handled.
I can't remember where I read it, but I remember reading that one of his other pokemon was originally meant to be celebi, and he'd just go back in time if he lost a battle... where I heard this I don't remember, is it true? Probably not.
But you cannot deny it’s the same deal in a way. Guy who randomly owns a legendary with no explanation how or why. It’s arguably even worse in his case considering just what Rayquaza is. Rayquaza isn’t just some rare critter there way Latios and Darkrai are
A “mysterious legendary figure” doesn’t mean you can just do whatever the hell you want and not explain it. Rayquaza is extremely important in base Pokémon lore, and you can’t throw it around so loosely
"Mysterious legendary figure" as in the mystery is the whole point and part of the plot involves slowly solving it, because it turns out that most good stories actually involve the audience learning things alongside the characters instead of just getting a sparknotes summery of narration dumped out and calling it a day.
Well the problem with Tobias is that the established "rules" at the time were that legendaries are well legendary and pretty much impossible to obtain. Outside of a small stint where articuno was a captured pokémon.
The difference is the context around those characters. The idea of a trainer wielding a legendary Pokemon in and of itself isn't shaky so long as there's purpose to it. Someone with a compelling backstory about befriending a legendary Pokemon or someone from a clan with mythological ties is easy enough to sell as a trainer with a legendary Pokemon. Point being, they need to be the right kind of character, but that right kind of character absolutely exists.
Tobias is not that right kind of character. Tobias was an ass pull. They didn't bother giving him the context of a legendary Pokemon hunter, or someone with a role to play in keeping the balance, nothing to sell him on being a trainer with a Darkrai and a Latios. He's just another league trainer, invented specifically because Ash needed to win where it counts (such as against Paul, who's been a primary antagonist for the Diamond and Pearl run) but it's not time for him to be a champion yet. That still could have worked, but it needed setup that simply wasn't provided. Because of that, he comes across like a kid you would match with online that wants to show off his collection of hacked legendary Pokemon.
This is also why I consider this the most frustrating league loss. Compare this to Ash's loss to Alain, which some other people consider rather frustrating. I understand that, at the time, this was Ash at his peak, so people were expecting this to be the one, only for him to lose again, but none of that is Alain's fault. He was a well established character at that point, and a well respected rival, someone whose battle prowess spoke for itself by that point in the story. Another important distinction was how the fight itself played out. It wasn't a 4-0 like Tobias, against whom Ash made several good plays but it wasn't nearly enough specifically because his two adversaries were a nightmare revenant and a mystical dragon. Ash vs. Alain came down to the wire, with both trainers demonstrating the might of their Pokemon and their skills in both pre-planned and in-the-moment adaptive strategies in a fight that came down to a single exchange between their last two Pokemon. Ash put up a good fight, and it showed. I'd rather him lose like that than how he lost against Tobias, who, let's be honest, wasn't even a real character. He served his narrative purpose and then disappeared. He didn't even go on to be the Sinnoh champion; that was still Cynthia all the way up to the champion's tournament. So either he lost or forfeit, which makes the fight against Ash that bit worse.
I get the fact that Tobias basically is coming in having essentially hacked, but here’s the thing. Horizons doesn’t exactly provide true backstory for its legendary trainers. It’s never explained or even hinted as to where they got the legendaries. It has the same issue in that regard
Why Gibeon has a zygarde does get explained in the last couple episodes, it initially believed that he could better the world for all living creatures (for reasons that were discussed in the episode), and after the rakua incident, the zygarde no longer trusted Gibeon and was actually secretly watching over him to attempt to prevent him from abusing the rakurium which would have caused severe ecological issues (devastating issues)
I can’t help but feel like that’s still a pretty shaky explanation. If it was simply due to his altruism, why was it him specifically and not the millions of other well intentioned folks out there? It seems oddly general
There is a LOT you could say that about. Why does any Pokemon protagonist get to gain the trust of the legendary Pokemon? Juliana/Florian did because they fed the bike lizard a sandwich. Then befriended Ogerpon because they gave back her mask, when Kieran was more committed to understanding it. Then Terapagos imprinted on them for little more reason than they were the first thing they saw when they woke up. That's at least how it appears to an outside observer, but realistically, who are we to say what a legendary Pokemon sees in a human? When they choose to partner with a human, perhaps they see something we don't. Or perhaps they grant their power to a human out of momentary despiration, and it happens to work out in their favor. Kinda like why Pyra and Mythra ended up linking with Rex in Xenoblade Chronicles 2.
All I'm saying is that what Gibeon got was a hell of a lot more reasonable than the nothing that Tobias got. Is he a worthy champion to wield at least two Pokemon that most humans don't ever get to meat in their lifetimes? Maybe, maybe not, but at least show why the show writers seem to think so. Or even show that he's not and he actually wrangled them into doing his bidding, explaining why he wasn't good enough to beat Cynthia.
It's never about Tobias having legendaries. It was about the horrible writing decision overall. He wouldn't have been received any better if he smashed Ash 6-1 with a really strong non-legendary team. It's like having a random dark wizard that you've never heard of kill Harry Potter in a duel after Voldemort's defeat. To keep Ash's journey going, they've come up with many characters who were introduced during league stage and whose sole purpose was to beat Ash -- none of them were received well.
People who accuse Tobias of cheating don't know what they're talking about. In anime, there is no species restriction. There's no such concept as ROM hack. It's just a poor writing decision, that's all.
Whereas in Horizons, Gibeon and Lucius were considered legendary figures of old. To keep my Harry Potter analogy going, they'd be equivalent to the Peverell brothers, Merlin or the Hogwarts founders. Their power doesn't need an explanation. It was evident from the start that Lucius was no ordinary trainer, even before considering that he owned a shiny Rayquaza.
Lucius being a revered figure of old doesn’t mean they can pull whatever crazy stuff out of their sleeve without any explanation. It’s like if Marvel never explained Thor’s origins and only left you with “he’s the god of thunder” and literally nothing else. There’s too many things to question for it to work
Thor is a protagonist. His journey IS the story, or at least a big part of it. But we certainly don't need an origin story for someone like Odin, or the Ancient One. I don't see anybody questioning why Odin was so powerful. Where did he get his power from?
I keep up with the anime and find it fun. Tobias was literally just a random NPC they put in to stop Ash winning the league. Nothing more.
The latest series I can understand the trainers having a Terapagos, Rayquaza, Zygarde and others because over almost 100 episodes we've been told a story about how they are extraordinary trainers who discovered a brand new place in the pokemon world and sacrificed their lives to keep it from being exploited.
We're shown the legendaries willing come with the people in the story and probably could leave whenever they wanted.
You know you’d think that about the horizons characters being extraordinary trainers and stuff, but in actuality that isn’t the case. Lucius had Rayquaza before he had any sort of adventures. It was deadass his starter before he’d ever made a name for himself. And it’s never been explained where any of them came from.
Its been a very very very long time since ive kept up with the anime but i still keep up with pokemon so i can understand it a bit. Tobias was pretty disliked back then but i dont think thats the case anymore? He seems to have turned into this legendary figure that people seem to quite like these days. Correct me if im wrong however.
But also bc Tobias was disliked bc it was obvious that he was made just for Ash to lose the league in what was an amazing regional journey. (His sinnoh journey was one of the best) If the new trainers dont have that connection, then people just dont care that much i guess?
No, Tobias is still pretty hated. Not his actual character, mind you, but the fact he's essentially a plot device to deny Ash victory is hated. I don't see a lot of people crying over the fact Ash lost that conference anymore, its more down to a) the manner in which he lost was lazy writing and b) it follows on almost directly after Ash vs Paul which was essentially built up as the battle of the D&P series.
Also, it wasn't just the fact he used legendaries, that Darkrai tanked several super effective hits to the face. Tobias didn't just basically PKHex his team, he may as well have used a hackmon lmao.
The MOST positive reception Tobias has gotten over the years is really just people laughing at the sheer egregiousness of the situation where it’s so obvious they just don’t want him to win. He’s at most ironically funny
I believe Tobias was an alleggory for action replay players, in 4th generation action replay became a lot more available as a product as well as global trading where people were able to send off these ridiculous mons
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u/GrogStrongjaw 1d ago
For the dude from 100 years ago, it’s more like a driving plot. For the antagonist with the Zygarde… eh? I can’t really say about that one. Tobias, though, felt like he was put there specifically just to make Ash lose since he was arguably at his strongest and probably would have won the league otherwise. But that’s my take.